EV Digest 6362
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Subject: Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle/PV pa
nels
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: EV Album Hits The Magic 1000 Active Entries
by "Glenn Meader" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: push and go vs regen (was Re: Brake lights on regen)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV Album Hits The Magic 1000 Active Entries
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: push and go vs regen (was Re: Brake lights on regen)
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Issues with K&W charger
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Serious gassing when charging- and inconsistant craiglist?
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: pulse n glide .. regen .. (was Re: Brake lights on regen - so
lved) .. part 3 .. jerky and takes more power ?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Serious gassing when charging- and inconsistant craiglist?
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: EV Album Hits The Magic 1000 Active Entries
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) AGM voltage, was push and go vs regen
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Subject: Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle/PV pa
nels
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: pulse n glide .. regen .. (was Re: Brake lights on regen - so
lved) .. part 3
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Debating purchasing an EV
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Issues with K&W charger
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: MBTF for EV components? (was RE: Engine out)
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: push and go vs regen (was Re: Brake lights on regen)
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Rebates/Incentives/Credits, Was: Debating purchasing an EV
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Obsolete Brake Parts
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Starting out on a EV in the UK
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: pulse n glide .. regen .. (was Re: Brake lights on regen - solved) ..
part 3 .. jerky and takes more power ? .. end of thread
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Serious gassing when charging
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> Well I de-rated the panels by half to take into
> consideration the lack of full sun and poor angle. Do
> you think the panels would still put out only half
> their rated power during peak hours?
Yes, plus you need to take charing losses into account.
You'll loose power for voltage mismatch and also battery charge efficiency.
> 200lbs is one passenger, and as I've mentioned before,
> the air drag can be almost negligible with a small
> angle piece on the leading edge of the first panel to
> smooth the flow. They are not quite 2" thick, I don't
> see how they'd induce much resistance.
It's NOT negligible.
2" by what 4 or 5 feet? That increases your frontal area as well as
interfering with the flow (increasing Cd).
So you get a double whammy, higher Cd * higher frontal area.
This effects your range even on rainy days when you get zero benifit from
the panels.
As sson as I get a cloud free day, I'll do some tests to see how much
power you loose from sub-optimal positioning of solar panels.
I only have monocrystaline and polycrystaline panels, so I can't comment
on any of the flexible kind. Though, from what I understand, the best of
the flexible panels produce less power than the crystaline ones even under
these circumstances.
> Your points on cost are very relevant. I had no idea
> of the costs involved. Maybe someday if Nansolar comes
> to market as they are planning costs will be more
> reasonable.
>
Yeah, I'm holding my breath. ;-)
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
CAalifornia is listed twice in the location page (one is mis-spelled)
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/geo
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Chancey
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 4:39 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EV Album Hits The Magic 1000 Active Entries
Hi folks,
We made it! It has been a long long haul, but the EV Album is now
1000 entries strong. We actually have 1053 entries total, but 53 are
either retired, canceled, or incomplete.
Thank you all so much for helping make this happen.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV Photo Album
http://evalbum.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
I think you mean flooded NiCds?
AGMs are usually around 2V per cell, around 2.35V gassing will start.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 4:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: push and go vs regen (was Re: Brake lights on regen)
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> I wasn't suggesting that you'd skip the brakes entirely. I was
> pointing out that in normal driving the regen is capable of stopping
> the car in reasonable time. After all 200 feet is about the length of
> a freeway off-ramp, a rather scary short one even.
In practical terms I can take the Prizm from 80mph down to 20mph in the
space of a normal off-ramp using regen alone.
To do this stunt you need batteries that can take a 180+a charge (300v
base system) without popping over 1.167 volts per cell. AGMs are great
for this.
My guess is if I'm putting 180a into the pack at 350 volts then I am
dissipating 63kw at the pack. Given the energy being burned up by the
motor (whoops generator) and the IGBTs (90% efficient, so add 10%)
you're looking at a braking force of about 70kw.
That's enough to make a big difference.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 29 Jan 2007 06:39:24 -0600, you wrote:
>Hi folks,
>
>We made it! It has been a long long haul, but the EV Album is now
>1000 entries strong. We actually have 1053 entries total, but 53 are
>either retired, canceled, or incomplete.
>
>
I also, Thank you. I really love being able to show off my car on
the Internet. Looking at the other EV's and being able to contact the
owners has been a real help.
R. Matt Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am hoping to get an even bigger EV grin with regen on my EV. The
controller is in and so are the new batts. Hopefully it should all work
well. Any amount of regen braking force is better than no regen. I want to
have my clutch pedal adjust the regen current on the fly so i can vary the
amount of regen say coming into a corner.
On 30/01/07, Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> I wasn't suggesting that you'd skip the brakes entirely. I was
> pointing out that in normal driving the regen is capable of stopping
> the car in reasonable time. After all 200 feet is about the length of
> a freeway off-ramp, a rather scary short one even.
In practical terms I can take the Prizm from 80mph down to 20mph in the
space of a normal off-ramp using regen alone.
To do this stunt you need batteries that can take a 180+a charge (300v
base system) without popping over 1.167 volts per cell. AGMs are great
for this.
My guess is if I'm putting 180a into the pack at 350 volts then I am
dissipating 63kw at the pack. Given the energy being burned up by the
motor (whoops generator) and the IGBTs (90% efficient, so add 10%)
you're looking at a braking force of about 70kw.
That's enough to make a big difference.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Matt,
I hope others that have BC-20 experience will also POST on this
topic.
I have an interest in EV charging. I have tried and/or used many
different chargers. I have used a BC-20 with and without a boost
transformer. And I have used a BC-20 at higher charging currents.
IMHO: a BC-20 is not a smart charger. It is one step better than a
light-dimmer. A huge current spike is drawn by this charger: it
cooks plugs, cords, breakers and outlets. It does not have a
Multi-stage charging algorithm. Because you have to watch it
carefully to keep it from over or under charging your pack, I
consider it a manual charger.
I do not recommend that anyone purchase this charger. It can be
used safely if set correctly, but I would mainly use it as a backup
charger if my main smart charger was down/being repaired/replaced.
As was POSTed on the EV List many moons ago by a company rep., the
current meter on the BC-20 does not display RMS. It displays what
they call TMS which is not the same).
I strongly recommend that you have an accurate clamp on RMS AC
current meter, and a DC voltmeter (a digital one is recommended).
The clamp on amp meter will tell you how much AC current you are
drawing, and the voltmeter will help you set the BC-20's correct
taper voltage.
If the BC-20 charger is plugged into a 5-20 (110 VAC 20 amp)
circuit, the best setting I have found using the built in meter is
just under the 7amp reading (using a clamp on AC current meter is
recommended).
At this setting it is under the average AC current that will let
you go to sleep without tripping the source's AC breaker (your
charger, meter, and breaker may vary).
When I plugged the BC-20 charger into a 110VAC 30amp outlet, the
best setting I have found using the built in meter is just under
the 10amp reading.
Plugging into a 110 VAC 40 amp source, I changed my output wiring
to 10 gauge and was able to reach a 15 amp reading on the charger's
built in meter. But the internal wiring got hot pretty fast. I
could not charge at that current for more than a few minutes
without being concerned about overheating the internal wiring. The
boost transformer got overheated too.
DOing the above, I was able to show that the BC-20 charger can put
out just under 20 DC amps without tripping the built in (white)
breaker. But I do not recommend that a BC-20 be used at that higher
output current even though the charger says it is rated for it.
Charging at a lower output current off a 110 VAC 30 AC amp outlet
(or less) should be fine.
Be sure to not over heat the boost transformer. The one sold for
use with the BC-20 is usually not designed for a 20 amp charge
current.
The BC-20 normally does make a buzzing noise. The more current it
puts out the louder the buzz. If you think it is making too loud
buzzing noise, I would be concerned.
Do plan to do a manual overcharge after 10 charging cycles. The
BC-20 is not smart enough to do the finishing charge stage (a
slight over charge). When doing the slight over charge, set the
taper charge voltage higher than normal and the output current down
to about 4 amps for about 3 hours. The pack's cells should be
lightly bubbling (occational small bubbles).
Afterward you need to re-set the BC-20 taper voltage back to its
normal setting. Read http://www.usbattery.com/pages/usbspecs.htm
Using their specifications, at 80F your 120VDC pack should be set
to (60cells * 2.583V=) ~155 VDC.
Good Luck.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
that is my link :-) Did you find another one? There is such a thing as an
AGM-60. It holds 8 of the 7.5 amp power modules.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Rod Hower
> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 6:31 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Serious gassing when charging- and inconsistant craiglist?
>
>
> I checked out your listing and this page,
> http://anchorage.craigslist.org/for/269101089.html
> It says 60Amps but checking the spec sheet you listed
> it only says 22.5Amps.
> I guess it's only 22.5 amps and the craigslist listing
> is incorrect?
> Thanks,
> Rod
> --- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > In your plans for future modes consider a 48V
> > nominal pack. There are a lot of good Telco type
> > charges on the market for 48V
> > equipment. Many are smart with multi-stage
> > algorithms and with both user adjustable regulation,
> > float and equalize settings.
> >
> > my listing:
> > http://anchorage.craigslist.org/for/269101089.html
> >
> > they can also be found on e-bay at 3 times this
> > cost, but still half the cost of new.
> >
> > Mike,
> > Anchorage, Ak.
> >
> >
> > > nikki wrote
> > > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:15 AM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: Re: Serious gassing when charging
> > >
> > >
> > > The plan is to put ThunderSky 200AH cells in -
> > probably shooting for
> > > a 42v nominal pack voltage, with Cedric Lynch's
> > cell protectors on
> > > each cell. I should at least get a decent range
> > then.
> > >
> > > If I can use a band-aid type fix (primarily for
> > the pocket) until
> > > then I'll be happy!
> > >
> > > Nikki.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This has been discussed before, so the archives should give
you more info. A recap below:
Pulsing should never be jerky, you can accelerate smoothly to
the max speed, then gradually release the accelerator and glide.
The whole cycle can easily take more than a minute, so it can
be performed much more smoothly than driving from traffic light
to traffic light.
Indeed, an EV takes more energy to increase speed and then glide
then maintaining constant speed.
NOTE that the losses of a combustion engine are the reason to
do the gliding and during the pulse, you can operate it in its
optimal (high-power) range.
In an EV, the motor is very efficient over a wide range of
operation and there are essentially no significant idling losses.
However, the batteries and electronics and wiring will give a
loss that is usually not linear with current, but closer to
the square. Which means that if you operate in 50% duty cycle,
in half the time you get four times the usual loss, so the loss
overall can be twice the loss when driving constant speed in an
EV. There are a few other factors, but the Peukert effect in
your batteries combined with the increased losses at higher
power draw make the pulse and glide technique irrelevant for
EV, the losses will be larger, your consumption higher and
your range smaller than driving a steady pace.
EV's are really different in many ways from the ICE powered car.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of peekay
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: pulse n glide .. regen .. (was Re: Brake lights on regen -
solved) .. part 3 .. jerky and takes more power ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I would think pulsing like that would be really jerky at best.
there has been no such design/discussion that i can find .. so
we can think/talk/conclude
> It always takes more power to accelerate than to maintain.
THIS is the crux of the issue .. does it take more power
to maintain speed ? or does it take more power to
pulse n glide with power to motor being off .. and
pulse n glide again when speed drops below the threshold
that one can set for the conditions around one ?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of ROBERT RICE
> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 10:48
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: pulse n glide .. regen .. (was Re: Brake lights on regen -
> solved) .. part 3
>
>
>
> peekay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ----- Original Message
> -----
> From: "Cor van de Water"
> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 12:04 AM
>
> > I have learned how to drive economically
>
> now i have a proposition :
>
> can we add some devices where i can set the upper and lower limits of
> speed .. this would work like this :
>
> when i reach the upper speed which i set, the power shoud cut off ..
> when i reach the lower speed, the power should come on and accelerate to
> that upper speed limit which i set
>
> this setting of the upper and lower speeds will be different for
> different roads and driving conditions
>
> a) min 40 kmph .. max 60 kmph
> b) min 30 kmph .. max 50 kmph
> c) min 20 kmph .. max 40 kmph
> d) min 10 kmpw .. max 20 kmph
>
> this would work for freeways .. to congested roads
>
> all i need to do then is to keep my accelerator pressed ..
> and the motor will work only when speed drops to lower than the min
> limit .. and cuts off when it crosses the max limit
>
> i will need freedom to keep shifting my lower and upper limits on the
> fly .. maybe like two levers on the erstwhile tram cars
>
> ..peekay
>
> Hi EVerybody;
>
> Hmmmmm? Sounds like something most EVerybody is pretty much equipped
> with already; A right foot, and a brain(Logic Circuit) to operate it?
>
> OK for folks wanting in the above, or wanting to cell fone, catch
> up on their reading, or diddling with the @#$%^ radios in cars nowadaze.
> There's always cruise control, although ya don't see it much in EV's
> yet.
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
> ___________________________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
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1:12 PM
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh- I see I copied the title of the C&D page for the AGM Series. I'll go fix
that. The AGM-25 is a 22.5Amp max rectifier.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Willmon
> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:51 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Serious gassing when charging- and inconsistant craiglist?
>
>
> that is my link :-) Did you find another one? There is such a thing as an
> AGM-60. It holds 8 of the 7.5 amp power modules.
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Rod Hower
> > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 6:31 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: Serious gassing when charging- and inconsistant craiglist?
> >
> >
> > I checked out your listing and this page,
> > http://anchorage.craigslist.org/for/269101089.html
> > It says 60Amps but checking the spec sheet you listed
> > it only says 22.5Amps.
> > I guess it's only 22.5 amps and the craigslist listing
> > is incorrect?
> > Thanks,
> > Rod
> > --- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > In your plans for future modes consider a 48V
> > > nominal pack. There are a lot of good Telco type
> > > charges on the market for 48V
> > > equipment. Many are smart with multi-stage
> > > algorithms and with both user adjustable regulation,
> > > float and equalize settings.
> > >
> > > my listing:
> > > http://anchorage.craigslist.org/for/269101089.html
> > >
> > > they can also be found on e-bay at 3 times this
> > > cost, but still half the cost of new.
> > >
> > > Mike,
> > > Anchorage, Ak.
> > >
> > >
> > > > nikki wrote
> > > > Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:15 AM
> > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > Subject: Re: Serious gassing when charging
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The plan is to put ThunderSky 200AH cells in -
> > > probably shooting for
> > > > a 42v nominal pack voltage, with Cedric Lynch's
> > > cell protectors on
> > > > each cell. I should at least get a decent range
> > > then.
> > > >
> > > > If I can use a band-aid type fix (primarily for
> > > the pocket) until
> > > > then I'll be happy!
> > > >
> > > > Nikki.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:14 PM 1/29/2007, you wrote:
CAalifornia is listed twice in the location page (one is mis-spelled)
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/geo
Nice catch. I wish people would just spell things out when they
enter them so I don't have to work out what they mean. US states are
one thing, but some national codes leave me searching the net for
what the abbreviations stand for.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV Photo Album
http://evalbum.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Chris,
>
> I think you mean flooded NiCds?
> AGMs are usually around 2V per cell, around 2.35V gassing will start.
>
> Cor van de Water
>
Universal Battery lists charging to 14.4-15.0V with current below 40A
for their 110Ah AGM.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
Solar panels are light-to-current conversion devices,
so you can calculate from the angle how much current
they will produce, for example: at 45 deg the section
of the sun rays that is hitting the panel is sqt(1/2)
the section of a perpendicular irradiation,
which is about 70%, so the current output will be 70%
of that at perpendicular, which should be the spec'ed output
if the sun delivers 1000W/sqm and the surface is clean.
Current is exactly linear with the amount of light energy
falling on the panels.
Secondary effect is the temperature rise of the panel due
to solar energy from ambient temp, this causes the output
voltage to drop.
Because panels are measured and specified at 25 deg C,
there is no solar installation in the world that gets
rated spec or it must be located in extreme freezing
temperatures.
Bolting the panels flat on a car roof makes them
get extremely hot, so power output should be greatly
reduced and possibly lifetime compromised.
The best way to install a solar panel is with free
air flow along the back - they often are not integrated
in the roof, but raised above the existing roof tiles.
The van is supposed to be 6' wide, so it gains almost
half a square feet frontal area.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Subject: Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle/PV
pa nels
> Well I de-rated the panels by half to take into
> consideration the lack of full sun and poor angle. Do
> you think the panels would still put out only half
> their rated power during peak hours?
Yes, plus you need to take charing losses into account.
You'll loose power for voltage mismatch and also battery charge efficiency.
> 200lbs is one passenger, and as I've mentioned before,
> the air drag can be almost negligible with a small
> angle piece on the leading edge of the first panel to
> smooth the flow. They are not quite 2" thick, I don't
> see how they'd induce much resistance.
It's NOT negligible.
2" by what 4 or 5 feet? That increases your frontal area as well as
interfering with the flow (increasing Cd).
So you get a double whammy, higher Cd * higher frontal area.
This effects your range even on rainy days when you get zero benifit from
the panels.
As sson as I get a cloud free day, I'll do some tests to see how much
power you loose from sub-optimal positioning of solar panels.
I only have monocrystaline and polycrystaline panels, so I can't comment
on any of the flexible kind. Though, from what I understand, the best of
the flexible panels produce less power than the crystaline ones even under
these circumstances.
> Your points on cost are very relevant. I had no idea
> of the costs involved. Maybe someday if Nansolar comes
> to market as they are planning costs will be more
> reasonable.
>
Yeah, I'm holding my breath. ;-)
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peekay,
I am giving an overview why PnG does not work for EVs in
another post, more info in the archives as well.
The MAIN reason to have a ratchet in the rear wheel of a
bicycle is safety.
Cheap, small kids bikes do not have a this facility and
you can pedal them the same as a normal bike UNTIL you
want to stop and the pedals keep on pushing.
I have had several occasions where a foot slipped off a
pedal and due to the pedal not moving back, but continuing
to push forward, it caught my leg between pedal and street,
so I had a very painful bruise from the pedal.
Also downhill can be very scary and once you are up to speed
and lift your feet from the pedals it can be *really*
challenging to get them on again, if you want to start braking!
(the cheap kids bikes used to use the pedals for braking
as well, don't know if that is still state of the art)
NOTE that a human being cannot be compared with an electric
motor, as muscles behave differently than an electric
propulsion system.
One example is the case where you perform no labor by pushing
to keep something in place, so the path = 0 and therefor the
energy delivered = 0.
However, it can cause you to use all your strength and your
muscles tire quickly.
For an electric motor to produce torque at 0 RPM there is only
very little power required, only the energy loss of the motor
and in a good motor this is somewhere around 5% or so.
What I mean is that because something is common while bicycling
or using an ICE, does not mean that it is true for an EV.
I have never seen an ICE fill up their gas tank while going
downhill, while for the EV it is no problem to capture the
potential energy into battery energy when equipped with regen.
You see that you need to study the physics of the machine at
hand, to see if the theory works or not.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of peekay
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: pulse n glide .. regen .. (was Re: Brake lights on regen -
solved) .. part 3
hello cor
sorry to sound dissenting ..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Since this technique has no merit to EVs, you should ask
> it on another forum.
pulse n glide works in ICE .. i have documented this in
my Zen .. with a minimum of 30% (approx) and a max
of 80% (approx) increase in mileage
i find no reason why this will not work in EV
it works in bicycles (the only reason for the ratchet
type gear in rear wheel) .. we paddle and relax
the ISSUE is this : which consumes more amps ?
maintaining speed with motor on all the time ..
OR
giving a mild push to restore speed to the set
upper threshold ?
let's say .. the thresholds are 25mph and 30mph
do i keep feeding the motor with amps from the
battery .. or do feed the motor with amps for
short periods of time ?
(wind resistance at such speeds won't be very very
high .. and therefore can be left out of this issue)
..peekay
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To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo!
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--- Begin Message ---
Joseph wrote -
> Isn't there someone on this list that sells a lift kit for small pickup
> beds? I am looking for such a kit for a conversion.
At www.TEVA2.com there is a link to drawings that Mark Brueggemann did for his
S-10 bed lift. Clik on Projects on the left and scroll half way down. It is
very simple, just a gas lift and a fabricated pivot hinge.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like the "bad boy" behavior of the K&W is the real culprit,
having no input phase correction and drawing high peak pulses
during the voltage peak - a cheap and bad design, causing noise
(both electric as well as acoustic), overheating wiring and
disappointing efficiency are the results.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Issues with K&W charger
I'm having the same problem. I suspect the breaker is defective.
I bought some new breakers off eBay and I'm planning on replacing it.
FWIW here is an eBay listing for the same breakers I bought:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110085909060
> Howdy all,
>
> I've been having some issues with the K&W charger on my truck (
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/882). I have an old BC-20 with the LB-120
> boost transformer. I finally put in a dedicated 30A circuit for my truck
> in
> the garage (yay!) so I cranked up the amps on the BC-20. Immediately, it
> popped the little white breaker on the LB-120 (looks like a turkey
> thermometer popping out to tell you it's done). I found that I can't let
> the needle on the BC-20 to go above mid-way as I'm adjusting the current
> setting or it will sooner or later trip the breaker. I think that's about
> 12-13 amps, based on the assumption that it goes from 0-25A. Believe it
> or
> not, I can't actually read the thing in its current position behind the
> bench seat. I once used a mirror to read it, but I can't recall it
> exactly.
>
> I'm also having an issue with too much gassing, but I'll post that
> separately once I've tested a couple of ideas sparked by the recent thread
> about a similar issue.
>
> Is there an easy way to resolve my issue with that oversensitive breaker?
> Do I need to replace the BC-20? It is a bit noisy and I'm not sure if
> that's normal or not. Eventually, I'd like to replace the whole charger
> since I'd like to move up to a 156V or larger pack.
>
> Matt
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
MTBF's for industrial induction motors are in the
20,000 to 50,000 hour region, and VFD's are somewhat
lower (10,000 to 30,000). I would expect automotive
VFD's and motors to be more stressed, so those numbers
will be lower in an EV application. Still, even 6,000
hours is going to be a lot of distance - most ICE's
are well worn out by then.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>I wasn't suggesting that you'd skip the brakes entirely. I was
>pointing out that in normal driving the regen is capable of stopping
>the car in reasonable time. After all 200 feet is about the length of
>a freeway off-ramp, a rather scary short one even.
I drove a car with regen for a while and where I found I used it
was in slowing down at a stop light or that sort of thing - planned
decelerations where you also needed to not annoy other traffic. Off-
ramps, too. Where you are expected to slow down at a reasonable
rate. Very light regen (< 5 or 10 amps) would only waste power in the
inverter and motor, a 10 to 40 amp regen is better. Too high and
the batteries may not accept the charge very well. We had NiCd's
which were great that way.
Regen was effective down to 3 or 4 mph on the BLDC that car was
equipped with. It was set up with coast on no-accel pedal, the first
bit of brake pedal travel triggered regen, then hydraulic brakes.
With the clutch depressed, regen would be turned off, as the
sudden decel of the motor is pretty stressful on everything
(including your shorts) if you regen without any inertia.
On a BLDC, the inverter is run as a boost power supply (the motor
windings are the inductor in this case), and so long as the RPM is
somewhere over 500, you can get reasonable regen current. Below that,
you get braking but a lot of power loss in the IGBT's because the
motor back-EMF is relatively low in comparison to the voltage drop
of the IGBT's. MOSFETs are superior in this regard.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Incentive programs typically have to combat 2 scams. One is where the
person buys a heavily discounted product and then parts it out for a
different use. This may be why batteries were excluded. Hypothetically
speaking someone could use building an EV as an excuse to get subsidized
batteries for an RV or bass boat.
Second scam is double-dipping. They don't want someone building an EV,
getting the rebate, then selling it as parts to the next guy to get a
whole new rebate. This can go on indefinitely. I don't think the
battery exclusion has anything to do with that, but awhile back someone
had a problem with a restriction on one of those incentive programs
which may have been there to exclude this scam but also kept people from
building their own.
Danny
Dana Havranek wrote:
Hi Bruce,
In Illinois you can get a rebate up to $4,000.00 from the alternative energy
program.
Other states have similar rebates.
They reimburse for the actual cost of parts used to do the conversion except
for the batteries.
Why the batteries don't count I'll never figure out. Are they expendable or
they consider them fuel?
Anyway, there is not too much of a problem getting up to $4,000.00 in parts.
I haven't received the rebate back yet, so maybe I'm a little optimistic, but it should work out.
I had to submit invoices marked paid and/or copies of both sides of canceled checks. Also, the car needs to be converted to the alternative fuel by a company in Illinois - which was me. It's aimed at natural gas and propane conversions for business and fleets.
The rest I got as incentives from area business people helping me with the
project. It didn't quite add up to $4,000.00 but almost if you count the
materials I wrestled away from them.
Ask someone familar with EV's in your state. I would have never found our state
rebate unless another EV owner mentioned it.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hi Dana,
Can you explain more about how you got $8,000 of rebates, incentives and
credits? The only thing I can find is the $1,000 Qualified Electric Vehicle
Credit, form 8834 with the IRS.
Thanks!
Bruce
____________________________________________________________________________
_____
Dana Havranek wrote:
So it cost me $14,000.00 and that was reduced to about $6,000.00 with
rebates, incentives and credits.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just found a reciept from 2001 when I got the Laher cart fixed up and the
brakes redone. Moose Motors restores vehicles & has a huge inventory of
brake parts. They didn't have my brakes so they redid the metal shoes.
They also found an obsolete MG brake master cylinder that fit my cart.
Moose Motors Obsolete Brake Parts
1050 Goodwin Avenue
Penngrove, CA 94951
Lawrence Rhodes......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Simon!
On Jan 29, 2007, at 11:50 PM, Simon Chambers wrote:
Hi Nicki,
I currently live near Newbury but I'm also a student at UWE,
Bristol! I
sometimes see you buzzing around in your little yellow el, and have
to admit
seeing your car re-sparked my interest in EVs.
Ah Excellent. Our little bit of EVangelising is not to waste in
Bristol then :)
Looking at your BEVOB website, I noticed it states that your next
meeting is
this Sunday. However both this Sunday, and the first Sunday in
March are on
the 4th! If it's this Sunday, then very unfortunately I won't be
able to
come along since it's my dad's birthday and I'll need to drive home
for the
weekend. Will there be any notes put up online of the mini-lecture
afterwards? I'll be very interested to hear what is going to be said.
We'll se what we can do. The meeting is on Sunday 4th Feb - and
there would normally be one on the first sunday of the next month but
we are also planning a launch of our first public charging station in
Bristol for the 10th March - so we may not have the March regular
meet....
Also do you know of any good local scrap yards around the Bristol
area? I've
had a good look in the yellow pages, but most places that may be
tend to say
that they are metal recycling centres.
What specifically are you looking for? There's one in Yate - and if
you're from Newbury way there's some good ones there and in Wokingham
Reading, but that's about 70 miles away from Bristol!
If you want to come over any time and have a look at the El up close
please let me know. I live just down the road from your Campus at
about a block away...
Nikki.
P.S. Feel free to join the BEVOB site. They're a friendly bunch - oh,
and do have a BVS membership form too! :)
Kind Regards,
Simon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Indeed, an EV takes more energy to increase speed and then glide
> then maintaining constant speed.
i guess this should be true .. coming from experienced EV'ers
so this thread ends here
..peekay
(it would be nice to have some numbers from theory or experience
to fill in the gaps of my understanding..and..how do i search archives ?)
___________________________________________________________
Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to use" The
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Cor and everyone else.
The plot thickens! My charger point blank refuses to charge the 42v
pack if I connect it (it apparently knows that the 36v pack fully
charged should be approximately 42v, and so expects a reading of 42v
to be a full pack rather than a nominal 42 needing a charge. Drop the
voltage below 40v and it kicks in.
I would say, from observation alone, that the charger goes from a
steady 37 volts for the first hour or so up to ~52 volts for the next
hour or so. By the morning it's dropped the pack voltage back to
42-43 volts for the 36v nominal pack - I would hazard a guess that
the charging curve has a steep gradient up to the 51-52v in the
second hour with a slow drop off over the next four or five to 42V.
Perhaps the charger wasn't meant for these batteries? Does the charge
curve sound familiar to a different battery type? As I brought the
car second hand it's highly likely the guy who sold it me put the
cheapest batteries in it he could find (it had only done 712 miles in
8 years when I brought it) - since then I've doubled the mileage in 3
months.
I have noticed a fluctuation in the 'final charge' of the pack. Some
days I go in to see the voltage reading 43 volts and other days it's
only 41 volts. I also notice a drop of about 1.5V in the first 90
seconds of disconnecting the charger.
I think perhaps this weekend if I have time I will take the charger
apart and see if I can see any identifying marks. I'll snap some
photographs too and we'll see if we can see what this charger is.
I suspect the damage is already done to the batteries as they have
never been that good anyway (they were the ones which came with the
car) Based on a weekly milage of about 90 miles do you think I'll
survive till the summer, or is it a FIX NOW thing? I will have enough
money then for a decent set of Lithiums...
Nikki.
P.S. Simon, thanks for the 6v Trojan link. I think I may hold off and
go for LiIon in the summer.
_______________________________
Old car? New tricks?
Visit aminorjourney.com to see the transformation from Hebe to EV.
E-minor isn't just a key any more...
_______________________________
On Jan 30, 2007, at 12:16 AM, Cor van de Water wrote:
Nikki,
Your charger is broken.
I am not familiar with these Varta batteries, though it sounds
like they are flooded lead acids somewhere between SLI and deep
cycle application.
Floodeds can be hit with a higher voltage than sealed batteries,
but in general the charger should stay below 13.7V for the bulk
charging (no gassing) and only during the end of the charge cycle
the voltage can climb to somewhere around 15V per battery, while
the current is tapering down to avoid excessive over-charge.
For 3x12V the max voltage your charger delivers should be below
45V with maybe a slight bit over that during equalization, if the
charger has this setting.
53V/3 = 17.7V per battery, this is 3V higher than I ever set my
charger to, on rare occasions I have seen an out-of balance pack
push one battery to 16V but that is as bad as it gets and certainly
not an average voltage the charger shoudl supply.
From what I hear you say, your charger has a short-circuit in its
output regulation and simply always delivers full tilt power from
its rectifier, without keeping thinks in a safe range.
It may be possible to repair your charger, otherwise get a good one
before you burn up your batteries.
Hope this helps,
--- End Message ---
