EV Digest 6373
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Wooden battery spacers
by Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: trojan price increase 150%?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: noalox/nooxid
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: noalox/nooxid
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV digest 6372
by Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: trojan price increase 150%?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Wooden battery spacers
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Honda CRX conversion on ebay
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: noalox/nooxid
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) anyone selling T-125?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: EV digest 6372
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) EV digest 6372
by Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: hi all
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) EV's ,Bullshit and Other Stuff WAS, Re: EVLN(Israeli EVs for Israel,
Jordan & Palestinian buyers)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV digest 6372
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: EV digest 6372
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
You might consider Duplicolor or Rhino Coat as well I used it over the top of a
paint coat on my battery case.
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
---- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I use a epoxy coating which is a two part mixed from one of those kits for
> recoating sinks and tub, that I got Home Depot. It leaves a very hard thick
> gloss surface, that is very easy to clean. My battery box surfaces are still
> gleaming bright after 7 years now.
>
> One time, I use a paint type of epoxy I got from a paint store, and it did
> not work. The battery fumes discolor it and this epoxy stated to blister.
>
> If using a epoxy coating, clean the surfaces with a epoxy thinner. My
> surfaces are fiberglass, so this would etch the surface for a good bond.
>
> The Sink and Tub cost me about $25.00 which was enough to coat 70 sf of
> battery box twice. Use a epoxy thinner on the first coat to act as a primer
> and apply the second coat without or with a little thinner for a very smooth
> coat.
>
> Mix a little bit at a time, about a pint and temper it with thinner or it
> will set up too fast.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lock Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 6:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Wooden battery spacers
>
>
> > Is polyester resin still about half the price of epoxy? Are poly and
> > epoxy both unaffected by acid whatever? I know the epoxy will be
> > superior on the water (`cept cost perhaps), but maybe poly'd be OK on
> > shore?
> > tks
> > Lock
> > Toronto
> > human-electric hybrid pedestrian
> >
> > --- Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I work in a boatyard that does cold-molding (wood/epoxy). We use
> > > West Systems epoxy products. Not a big deal to epoxy over wood at
> > > all IMO. http://www.westsystem.com/
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 1:40:58 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Wooden battery spacers
> > >
> > > You can fiberglass over wood too, which makes it stronger and
> > > protects
> > > against water and acid.
> > >
> > > However, getting epoxy & glass over wood is a special procedure due
> > > to
> > > the rough wood surface, epoxy absorption, and other properties of the
> > >
> > > wood like sap content. Boat builders do it all the time though so
> > > I'd
> > > recommending looking them up on the web.
> > >
> > > Danny
> > >
> > > Myles Twete wrote:
> > >
> > > >Many early twentieth century EV manufacturers used wooden battery
> > > trays or
> > > >boxes.
> > > >Some, like Milburn, even mounted rollers on them for quick swapping
> > > the
> > > >packs at service stations. To those who think wood's bad because it
> > > might
> > > >absorb acid, I say 'haven't you ever heard of paint?... or better
> > > yet,
> > > >epoxy?. Seal the wood and most of the arguments go out the
> > > window---and
> > > >wood can be better than many materials if properly chosen for
> > > strength and
> > > >rigidity. Buy you do want to seal it. Both the 1921 Milburn and
> > > 1911
> > > >Hupp-Yeats I have used wooden boxes...but then plastics weren't
> > > exactly
> > > >around back then...
> > > >
> > > >-Myles
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ____________________________________________________________________________________
> > > Never Miss an Email
> > > Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started!
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> > >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Get on the Trojan Web site and find out who is the distributor for your area
is. Contact them, and tell them that you are doing research on EV's and
want to test out your batteries. You will need to order a pallet load at a
time, or 50 batteries. They will then deliver them right to your place.
You will have to accepted any lose of any bad battery in the pack, that
where the extra batteries with the same date comes in. On the electrical
equipment, it is a 100 percent mark up from the factory to the wholesaler
and than another 50 to 100 percent mark up from the wholesaler to the
retailer. Some of these venders need this markup to handle any bad items
or replacements.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:41 AM
Subject: trojan price increase 150%?
> My vehicle repair just jumped 150%
> Is this true for anyone else.?
> I purchased 1 Trojan T-125 3 months ago for $85
> The same store just quoted me $140 per battery (and that's not even with
> the post I want).
>
> I'm tempted to just drop the 3 batteries entirely and run at 138 Volts
> (compared to 156) if I could figure the easiest way to reset the Zivan
> without the $140 for roundtrip shipping and California Zivan to reprogram
> it. Other recomendations?
>
> What happened?! to battery pricing?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Tim,
Yes, I have use that tool dip stuff. It works very good, if you can get
your battery connections clean. I remember, that if some of the are not
super clean, this type of coating will tend to peal back.
To make it stick, I had to clean the connection after using a battery
cleaner. Brush the connections with a stainless type of tooth like brush and
make sure you brush under the battery connection too. Then wash each
connection with a epoxy thinner. Then this compound would stick.
If you use this tool dip stuff, look on the specs of this stuff to make sure
it says that it can be used for battery post and its acid proof. Also coat
all the way down to the base of the battery top and under the battery
connector.
It is best to dilute with 10% - 20% naphtha to get a smoother finish if this
product is too thick.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:53 AM
Subject: RE: noalox/nooxid
>
> Thanks Roland, (and Brian)
>
> After reading your post it became apparent to me that I either left a step
> out or simply wrote it wrong...
>
> The correct procedure is to clean the posts and terminals, assemble them,
> torque 'em down, THEN coat with whatever protective substance you decide
> to use...... I use axle grease, mainly because I have it. The idea is to
> keep the acid mist and the air OFF your connections.
>
> I s'pose you could even use paint here, or maybe that rubber tool coating
> stuff. The neat thing about using rubber coating is, any loose connections
> should be quite apparent by the melted/distorted rubber. Has any body
> tried something similar?
>
> But the point is... properly assemble your connections first , then coat
> them to protect them.
>
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:28 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: noalox/nooxid
> >
> > Yes, you have to be careful of what type of contact aid you used.
> > Several
> > years ago, I use a compound that we use in our electrical work. It was
> > Burndy Penetrox A design for low voltages under 600 volts.
> >
> > This compound is design for aluminum to aluminum, aluminum to copper,
> > copper
> >
> > to copper, and plated alloy connections. I use it only one time on six
> > battery mechanical connections, (all the rest of the battery connections
> > had
> >
> > welded on links).
> >
> > When I tried to moved the EV, it like it loss 90 percent of the power.
> > I
> > had to press the accelerator clear to the floor to get any movement.
> > Wipe
> > off the compound and I had my power back.
> >
> > The problem is, that this compound is used under high pressure
> > connections
> > which are install with hydraulic pressure. So the low pressure of
> > battery
> > connections of 100 inch lbs did not work for me with this type of
> > compound.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Brian M. Sutin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 11:05 PM
> > Subject: noalox/nooxid
> >
> >
> >> > Also regarding your cleaning of posts.... after cleaning coat them
> > with
> >> > axle
> >> > grease or vaseline, this will greatly increase the interval between
> >> > cleanings.
> >> > Some may suggest using Noalox which is a name brand for a substance
> > used
> >
> >> > for NO
> >> > ALuminum OXide. Since there shouldn't be any aluminum in your lead
> >> > terminals it
> >> > would for you just be an expensive form of vaseline or axle grease.
> >>
> >> The appropriate thing (IMHO) to use is No-Ox-Id, which gets confused
> > with
> >> No-Al-Ox.
> >> I put the stuff on all my connections just once when I assemble the
> > pack.
> >> I don't
> >> wipe if off when I clean. After that, they never corrode. At least,
> > mine
> >
> >> never
> >> have. YMMV.
> >>
> >> Brian
> >> Alfa Romeo Electric Conversion
> >> http://www.skewray.com/alfa
> >>
> >> --
> >> Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D. Space System Engineering and Optical Design
> >> Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122
> >>
> >>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 9:53 AM
Subject: RE: noalox/nooxid
>
> Thanks Roland, (and Brian)
>
> After reading your post it became apparent to me that I either left a step
out or simply wrote it wrong...
>
> The correct procedure is to clean the posts and terminals, assemble them,
torque 'em down, THEN coat with whatever protective substance you decide to
use...... I use axle grease, mainly because I have it. The idea is to keep
the acid mist and the air OFF your connections.
> Hi Tim an' EVerybody;
I have used the purple No-Co rings on my badd-ery connections, as well
as coting everything with any-old-Mobil-grease I have, used a small
paintbrush, to work the grease into the terminal cracks and crevices. I have
wiped a lite coating on the post before assembly. No conductivity issue,
yet.Make sure EVerything is snugged down as Tim sez.
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Subject: Re: hi all
>From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [email protected]
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>Hi Sushrut,
>Just out of curiousity, are you fixated on this idea of a series hybrid,
>or are you willing to listen when people tell you it's not a good idea?
>Usings a genset powering an electric motor will result in a vehicle that
>gets very poor milage and produces very high polution. Why would you want
>to do that?
How can it put this more clearly? YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! Peter you are one of the
people readers look to for answers on this list. You have got to get your
numbers straight and really investigate your opinion on this mater, because you
don't have it right. Series hybrids are less polluting and are more efficient
than using a gasoline engine alone by a factor of three without counting
regenerative braking and the advantages of using batteries. With ever improving
techniques to recapture wasted energy through the braking process and using the
generator only at its optimum to charge the batteries when they go below 40%,
you in essence have an electric vehicle that sometimes uses gasoline to either
keep going when the batteries are depleated or charge up the batteries when
there isn't a plug to be used. You are forgetting to count in the enourmous
lost of energy from gearing, called mechanical losses. These losses are the
reason you see people going back to the hub motor time and
time again to see if they can make it work. No gears, shafts and the like
between the motor and the wheel means energy saved that would otherwise be lost
to the mechanicals. Serializing an electric vehicle may be the only way at this
time to get electric like plug-in vehicles on the road to the general public.
It is the all important step to having a future of electric vehicles. Your
comments just kill that and confuse people who otherwise might buy a series
hybrid (a range extended EV) who wouldn't buy an EV because of the long charge
up times and the fear of getting stuck on the road with no way to get back
home. I have yet to see a mobile quick charging recker on the road. Please
think again about what you are saying about series hybrids, especially in the
light that you are an EV enthusiast.
Joseph Lado
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2 Feb 2007 at 9:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> What happened?! to battery pricing?
Lead is very expensive right now. I've never seen battery prices like this.
Trojan has always been more expensive than US Battery, so this might be a
good time to consider changing brands.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard,
In my Prizm, there are two buddy-pairs that have one battery stacked
on top of it's buddy. I used 1 inch square acrylic bars glued to a
sheet of acrylic to make a platform for the upper battery to sit on.
A thin sheet of rubber is glued to the bottom of the rod pieces for
cushioning. A not-to-scale ASCII drawing:
------------------------------
| | <--- acrylic sheet
------------------------------
| | | |
| | | | <--- 1 inch acrylic bars
| | | |
------- -------
======= ======= <--- thin rubber sheet
Several pieces of the 1 inch square bar are arranged to spread the
load on the lower battery top. The acrylic sheet is sized to be a
close fit to the surrounding battery box. The sheet is made from
3/16 or 1/4 inch material, I don't remember.
Ralph
Richard Rau writes:
>
> In the conversion that I'm now doing, three of the five battery boxes are
> designed to hold two levels of batteries. I am now experimenting with
> various materials for use as spacers between the lower and upper levels. In
> other words, I will be using blocks setting on top of the lower batteries as
> supports for the upper ones.
> Recent trials with plastics showed interesting results. Polypropylene and
> ABS were both stuck to one of polycarbonate battery cases using 3M high
> strength adhesive transfer tape. The inexpensive polypropylene did not hold
> a bond near as well as the more costly ABS. So ABS wins out for it's
> ability to stay put.
>
> After a lot of fussing, my thoughts went back to good ol' wood. It seems
> that a solid and stable hardwood would give decent performance if the
> environment remained mostly acid free. So I guess that is the question. Is
> it unwise for me to consider using this organic material because of its
> susceptibility to deterioration? These quality AGM's sure look
> unthreatening at this point. What do you think?
> Many Kw's of appreciation for your thoughts!
>
> Note- The boxes are vented and I am building a killer charging system that
> is a combination of PFC-30 for bulk charging and ventilated Soneil 3-amp
> modulars for finishing.
>
> Richard at N.W. Electric Vehicles
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Located in Utah is a 72Volt Conversion- Maybe a
> e-volks conversion from the description. For those
> looking for prebuilt EV
> Item: 200075312724
>
Well, who ever built it doesn't mind sitting up against an open
battery pack! I guess he's not worried about any acid spray getting
into the interior? More pictures:
http://www.preparedness1.com/hondacrx.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been using automotive spray-on battery terminal protectant now for 3+years
and haven't seen any corrosion. Batteries are T-105; box is plywood,
epoxy-coated on 4 of the 6 sides; boat is under cover at a moorage.
My guess is the protective spray is something like clear/reddish lacquer.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone have 1-3 T-125's to sell in somewhat used condition to sell (ideally
about 1 year old?)?
I'm near Philadelphia, so being nearby would be another need.
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2 Feb 2007 at 7:47, Joseph Lado wrote:
> >Usings a genset powering an electric motor will result in a vehicle that gets
> >very poor milage and produces very high polution. Why would you want to do
> >that?
>
> Series hybrids are less polluting and are more efficient
> than using a gasoline engine alone by a factor of three without counting
> regenerative braking and the advantages of using batteries.
Factor of three? Please document these numbers. They may hold true against
a 1967 ICE, but I'm skeptical that they will do so against a 2007 ICE.
I'm fairly sure that Peter was speaking of an off the shelf industrial or
home genset. These are usually inefficient gross polluters.
I'm skeptical about the figures you quote, but in any case a properly
designed series hybrid with full emissions controls will certainly be a
drastic improvement over an ad-hoc genset setup. But none of those is
available for purchase!
OTOH, anybody can buy a filthy, noisy B&S based genset at Home Depot and
throw it in the back of the pickup. Peter is arguing that that's an
inappropriate and poorly conceived solution, and I agree with him.
PS - None of the quasi-hybrids now on the market is a series hybrid (though
the Prius combines some SH elements with some PH elements. The only
commercial SH currently proposed is the GM Volt.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Subject: Re: hi all
>From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [email protected]
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>Hi Sushrut,
>Just out of curiousity, are you fixated on this idea of a series hybrid,
>or are
you willing to listen when people tell you it's not a good idea?
>Usings a genset powering an electric motor will result in a vehicle that
>gets very poor milage and produces very high polution. Why would you want
>to do that?
Peter, you are mistaken. You are one of the people readers look to for answers
on this list, however, you have got to get your numbers straight and really
investigate your opinion on this mater, because you don't have it right. Series
hybrids are less polluting and are more efficient than using a gasoline engine
alone by a factor of three without counting regenerative braking and the
advantages of using batteries. With ever improving techniques to recapture
wasted energy through the braking process and using the generator only at its
optimum to charge the
batteries when they go below 40%, you in essence have an electric vehicle that
sometimes uses gasoline to either keep going when the batteries are depleated
or charge up the batteries when there isn't a plug to be used. You are
forgetting to count in the enourmous lost of energy from gearing, called
mechanical losses. These losses are the reason you see people going back to the
hub motor time and time again to see if they can make it work. No gears, shafts
and the like between the motor and the wheel means energy saved that would
otherwise be lost to the mechanicals. Serializing an electric vehicle may be
the only way at this time to get electric like plug-in vehicles on the road to
the general public. It is the all important step to having a future of electric
vehicles. Your comments just kill that and confuse people who otherwise might
buy a series hybrid (a range extended EV) who wouldn't buy an EV because of the
long charge up times and the fear of getting stuck on the
road with no way to get back home. I have yet to see a mobile quick charging
recker on the road. Please think again about what you are saying about series
hybrids, especially in the light that you are an EV enthusiast.
Joseph Lado
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
+1 on what Roger said.
Units aside, even if it is a small, light, 2WD "Jeep," like a Suzuki Samurai,
going close to 100 mph (160 km/hr) is going to take alot of power. It would be
much better to get something more aerodynamic. Virtually any car will be more
aerodynamic than any Jeep.
----- Original Message ----
From: Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, February 1, 2007 9:47:15 PM
Subject: RE: hi all
Martin K wrote:
> 150 kmph is quite obviously 150 kilometers per hour.
I think it is obvious that David knew what the poster intended it to
mean, but was pointing out in a tongue-in-cheek manner that "kmph" is
*not* a standardly used (or understood) abreviation for kilometers per
hour. The abbreviations in common usage are "kph" and "km/hr".
"kmph" would actually seem to be the correct abbreviation for "thousand
miles per hour", though values of this magnitude would likely only
appear in the context of an astronomical discussion and people having
such a discussion would be more likely to use standard SI units ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 12:23 AM
Subject: Re: EVLN(Israeli EVs for Israel, Jordan & Palestinian buyers)
> Give me a big f**king break here. Israel is a country that can make an
> atomic bomb but not a viable electric car with current battery technology.
Right on, Rod! I'm SURE Isreal IS working on it. There WAS an Israeli
outfit;" Electric Fuel Propulsion" No relation to Bob Aronson, working on
Zinc batteries, but I think it was a vaperware thing, also like Bob A. As
for nukes, maybe they borrowed one of ours? We have too many as it is<g>!All
kidding aside they have the techy people to build all the EV's they want IF
they wanted them! Well, Hawai is a small island, where are the EV's?
Bermuda? The Little Kennedy Held islands off Mass?Nantucket? NY's Long
Island? A tad bigger but nice an' flat!Say "Hi" you Wrong Island guyz!
Tryin' to "out" ya!
> ["What prevents electric cars from becoming the perfect solution to the
> problems of air pollution and the dependence on fuel," Melamed writes, "is
> the lack of a good enough technology for the storing of electric energy.
The
> batteries that currently exist do not last long enough before needing to
be
> recharged, which itself takes too long..."]
Or, lets tow the Oil Line here.
Let's ship Madman over there
> with some PFCs and low internal resistant "old school" lead acid
batteries.
> Tel Aviv to Jerusalem is 35 miles. The whole darn country is less than the
> size of New Jersey. Like I said, Give me a f**king break. After a while
> these totally ignorant and ridiculous statements in the press just make me
> want to puke. Sorry for being so graphic. I am reaching the end of my
> tolerance level for BS.
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
And the rest of the World! I just got back from BBB, by train, EVen!I
had the pleasure to drive Charles Whalen's Rav-4's to the EVents. How do ya
think the TWO of them got to the festivities? Renewing the love affair with
working Store Bought EV's! Hell! They are Toyota's. They WORK. You are
wafted off in elegent silence, up to 80 mph, if ya like. I hung around 55-60
for a RT to Jupiter FAU Campus EVery day. Put on the (Gasp) Radio EVen! I
wish you ALL could tale the Rav's for a spin, Charles is just generous
enough to turn ya loose in one, but ya gotta bring it back<g>!Radio; glad ya
asked,clear as a bell! BBB was fun, especially seein' you guyz that made it
down.The racing was great. A 123's are a kick- ass battery. If I'm good
would ,Santa.......?As long as they don't get bought up by the Oily Folks
and squatted on? That poor little Orang Juice was JUICED! It screamed down
the strip, scrabbling for traction. Gees! If we had a test an' tune, few
hours, dream on, Yur lucky to get ANY passes among the snorting, roaring
gassers! If I EVer got rich there would be Electric Daze at the Strips of
our choice; Run, run ,run ,til your heart's content and battery trashed!
Hmmm? Joliet, this Year?
Back to Earth. By the time the Silly Meteor showed up at DelRay Beach
stop it was 2 hours plus LATE. 70 miles out of the shoot !Sheesh! I would
have been HOME , by then, on Jet Blue!But there ia an archaic charm of train
travel, Dinner in the Diner,Chatting up interesting folks, a leasurly travel
mode as nobody nowadaze rides Amtrak to GET there. You do because it's
scenic cheap(for me), a slice of Americana, at 79 mph, til ya get to DC and
the train screams along like Orange Juice, as it gets it's Electric
Locomotive there and ya do 110mph, average about 100 for awile! It CAN
happen in USA, will take a national energency for it to happen here!Ya fly
by the Freeways, cars look like they are standing still, as ya fly on! This
is a conventional train,16 cars, Like ya see in Podunk, or CA or OR,not the
150mph Acella Express!Now, if they, Amtrak, could buy out CSX, banish the
@#$% freight trains from the RR and string catenery, like CT, at 25k
volts??Commute to Miami from NYC<g>!Where the EV's should be Everywhere.
What better place than FLA for them??Warm, flat. A Electric Car Expressway
COULD be set up on I -95 Plugitin's set up along it every 50 miles so EVen
home made conversions can play!
Hey! Freedon Fans! Hang in there, It's coming!!!! Jerry has overcome alot
of tech difficulties, a lot to go, but if ya saw it LAST year? Pretty soon
It will go, getting the running gear bolted on to the vault like body
structure. A dashboard is about to be fitted, Lee Hart is working on the
instrumentation, We have the Alltrax and motor for the E drive, a D and D
motor, pretty blue, EVen!Jerry has gotten a factory setup and some help,
hired a guy to speed things. We COULD? deliver it up north on the Auto
Train, by Amtrak, thing ya take your CAR on the train with you. The only
example of this is between FLA and Virginia, sigh! You could drive yur
Freedom to Sanford, FLA and off the train just south of DC. Hit the Power of
DC guyz up for a charge when you hit town!Plug your way north to NY and
CT!An EVenture!That's how I plan on getting mine.
OK Enough ramblin' this AM.Thinking of Power of DC , and Joliet?
Seeya
Bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "bruce parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "evlist" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2007 8:28 PM
> Subject: EVLN(Israeli EVs for Israel, Jordan & Palestinian buyers)
>
>
> EVLN(Israeli EVs for Israel, Jordan & Palestinian buyers)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
> http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=120552
> Electric-Car Factory in Israel Discussed at Davos
> 16:20 Jan 30, '07 / 11 Shevat 5767 by Hillel Fendel
>
> At the just-ended World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland,
> Shimon Peres held informal talks about building an electric-car
> factory in Israel with representatives of Toyota and Renault.
>
> The idea was originally that of Shai Agassi, President of
> Germany's SAP, the world's largest business software company.
> Agassi, a Raanana native who was chosen in 2003 by TIME/CNN as
> its #1 Global Business Influential, shared the idea with Peres.
>
> Israel's Vice Premier told the car companies that the government
> would be willing to provide grants and tax benefits for the
> construction of such factories. Renault apparently showed
> significant interest in the idea.
>
> Peres said that battery-operated cars manufactured in Israel
> could supply Israel, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority, thus
> guaranteeing its viability.
>
> The main challenge of the project would be finding a way to
> cheaply manufacture an electric battery with which to start the
> car. Agassi expressed optimism that Israeli research and
> development teams could produce solutions, and the knowledge
> could help in building similar factories elsewhere.
>
> Israel's long-term interest is to reduce its dependency on oil.
> To this end, the government is also considering encouraging
> Israelis to replace their gas-powered cars with electric ones.
> Subsidies would be provided for the purpose.
>
> Gil Melamed, Maariv's automobile commentator, explains that
> Israel cannot realistically consider manufacturing cars, but
> rather batteries that would power the electric vehicles. "What
> prevents electric cars from becoming the perfect solution to the
> problems of air pollution and the dependence on fuel," Melamed
> writes, "is the lack of a good enough technology for the storing
> of electric energy. The batteries that currently exist do not
> last long enough before needing to be recharged, which itself
> takes too long... If Israel invests in developing battery
> technology and production of advanced batteries, we can
> definitely become an important player in the car industry of the
> future."
>
> Published: 09:13 January 30, 2007 Last Update: 16:20 January 30,
> 2007 All rights reserved IsraelNationalNews ©
> -
>
>
>
>
>
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
> in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
> http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
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>
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
How can it put this more clearly? YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! Peter you are one of
the people readers look to for answers on this list. You have got to get
your numbers straight and really investigate your opinion on this mater,
because you don't have it right. Series hybrids are less polluting and are
more efficient than using a gasoline engine alone by a factor of three
without counting regenerative braking and the advantages of using
batteries. With ever improving techniques to recapture wasted energy
through the braking process and using the generator only at its optimum to
charge the batteries when they go below 40%, you in essence have an
electric vehicle that sometimes uses gasoline to either keep going when the
batteries are depleated or charge up the batteries when there isn't a plug
to be used.
Hi Joseph,
Perhaps you can point me to an example of a series hybrid that has managed
to do all of the above successfully. I have yet to see one, especially not
one built in someones garage. The only successfull series hybrids I am
aware of are the enourmous type used in ships, trains, etc...
I think you may be confusing theory with practice.
damon
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What about the Toyota Prius? It runs in full electric or gas. When in
gas mode it is charging the battery pack.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of damon henry
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:40
To: [email protected]
Subject: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
>From: Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>How can it put this more clearly? YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! Peter you are one
>of the people readers look to for answers on this list. You have got to
>get your numbers straight and really investigate your opinion on this
>mater, because you don't have it right. Series hybrids are less
>polluting and are more efficient than using a gasoline engine alone by
>a factor of three without counting regenerative braking and the
>advantages of using batteries. With ever improving techniques to
>recapture wasted energy through the braking process and using the
>generator only at its optimum to charge the batteries when they go
>below 40%, you in essence have an electric vehicle that sometimes uses
>gasoline to either keep going when the batteries are depleated or
>charge up the batteries when there isn't a plug to be used.
Hi Joseph,
Perhaps you can point me to an example of a series hybrid that has
managed to do all of the above successfully. I have yet to see one,
especially not one built in someones garage. The only successfull
series hybrids I am aware of are the enourmous type used in ships,
trains, etc...
I think you may be confusing theory with practice.
damon
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, series hybrid has established inefficiencies in the gen head,
battery cycle, controller/motor. They're fairly high, easily 1/3 the
energy or more will be lost.
The energy's still coming from fuel. The only principle that makes any
sense out of this is that a small engine at constant RPM & load is going
to be more efficient than a large engine at varying RPMs and load. This
is only "sort of" true. Nowadays car engines with computer controls are
fairly well tuned to deliver a good efficiency over most of the power range.
Ad hoc generators on the other hand are fairly crude and inefficient
beasts. They're hardly tuned for efficiency like a car engine.
Lacking sensors, computer controls, any emissions systems including a
cat, they're equivalent to pre-emissions vehicles which is typically
many, many times worse emissions than a modern car.
Now if you had a very special generator in mind- like a Capstone
Microturbine or some new Atkinson-cycle engine- that could be something
worth looking into. Still, it has to get really really good efficiency
to overcome the large series losses. Well, heck, if you had a
microturbine I'd say it'd be cool enough just to have a turbine-powered
car even if you lost a few mpg.
Danny
David Roden wrote:
On 2 Feb 2007 at 7:47, Joseph Lado wrote:
Usings a genset powering an electric motor will result in a vehicle that gets
very poor milage and produces very high polution. Why would you want to do
that?
Series hybrids are less polluting and are more efficient
than using a gasoline engine alone by a factor of three without counting
regenerative braking and the advantages of using batteries.
Factor of three? Please document these numbers. They may hold true against
a 1967 ICE, but I'm skeptical that they will do so against a 2007 ICE.
I'm fairly sure that Peter was speaking of an off the shelf industrial or
home genset. These are usually inefficient gross polluters.
I'm skeptical about the figures you quote, but in any case a properly
designed series hybrid with full emissions controls will certainly be a
drastic improvement over an ad-hoc genset setup. But none of those is
available for purchase!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What about running your generator on Propane or CNG? Wouldn't that be
much cleaner than running it on gasoline? Hendrix systems has
conversion kits for most generators to make them run on CNG or LPG. If
you wanted to make your generator run more effeciently you could always
run it with a megasquirt fuel injection system and a motorcycle
catalytic converter.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV digest 6372
Well, series hybrid has established inefficiencies in the gen head,
battery cycle, controller/motor. They're fairly high, easily 1/3 the
energy or more will be lost.
The energy's still coming from fuel. The only principle that makes any
sense out of this is that a small engine at constant RPM & load is going
to be more efficient than a large engine at varying RPMs and load. This
is only "sort of" true. Nowadays car engines with computer controls are
fairly well tuned to deliver a good efficiency over most of the power
range.
Ad hoc generators on the other hand are fairly crude and inefficient
beasts. They're hardly tuned for efficiency like a car engine.
Lacking sensors, computer controls, any emissions systems including a
cat, they're equivalent to pre-emissions vehicles which is typically
many, many times worse emissions than a modern car.
Now if you had a very special generator in mind- like a Capstone
Microturbine or some new Atkinson-cycle engine- that could be something
worth looking into. Still, it has to get really really good efficiency
to overcome the large series losses. Well, heck, if you had a
microturbine I'd say it'd be cool enough just to have a turbine-powered
car even if you lost a few mpg.
Danny
David Roden wrote:
>On 2 Feb 2007 at 7:47, Joseph Lado wrote:
>
>
>
>>>Usings a genset powering an electric motor will result in a vehicle
>>>that gets very poor milage and produces very high polution. Why
>>>would you want to do that?
>>>
>>>
>>Series hybrids are less polluting and are more efficient than using a
>>gasoline engine alone by a factor of three without counting
>>regenerative braking and the advantages of using batteries.
>>
>>
>
>Factor of three? Please document these numbers. They may hold true
>against a 1967 ICE, but I'm skeptical that they will do so against a
2007 ICE.
>
>I'm fairly sure that Peter was speaking of an off the shelf industrial
>or home genset. These are usually inefficient gross polluters.
>
>I'm skeptical about the figures you quote, but in any case a properly
>designed series hybrid with full emissions controls will certainly be a
>drastic improvement over an ad-hoc genset setup. But none of those is
>available for purchase!
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Prius is a parallel hybrid: either electric only to the wheels(low speeds
and low loads), gas only to the wheels (drive and recharge batteries at same
time), or both (ex. electric aid to acceleration). The common definition of a
series device (at least the way I understand it) is that drive to the wheels is
accomplished via electric motor only, with heat engine generator used to supply
electricity to the batteries. Toyota's system uses a power splitter device
with two inputs which directs power to the wheels.
----- Original Message ----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 12:51:00 PM
Subject: RE: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
What about the Toyota Prius? It runs in full electric or gas. When in
gas mode it is charging the battery pack.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of damon henry
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:40
To: [email protected]
Subject: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
>From: Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>How can it put this more clearly? YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! Peter you are one
>of the people readers look to for answers on this list. You have got to
>get your numbers straight and really investigate your opinion on this
>mater, because you don't have it right. Series hybrids are less
>polluting and are more efficient than using a gasoline engine alone by
>a factor of three without counting regenerative braking and the
>advantages of using batteries. With ever improving techniques to
>recapture wasted energy through the braking process and using the
>generator only at its optimum to charge the batteries when they go
>below 40%, you in essence have an electric vehicle that sometimes uses
>gasoline to either keep going when the batteries are depleated or
>charge up the batteries when there isn't a plug to be used.
Hi Joseph,
Perhaps you can point me to an example of a series hybrid that has
managed to do all of the above successfully. I have yet to see one,
especially not one built in someones garage. The only successfull
series hybrids I am aware of are the enourmous type used in ships,
trains, etc...
I think you may be confusing theory with practice.
damon
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