EV Digest 6374
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV digest 6372
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: trojan price increase 150%?
by "D3" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: EV digest 6372
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Honda CRX conversion on ebay
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Series Hybrid ( was RE: EV digest 6372)
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Wooden battery spacers
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery Beach Burnout
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: EV digest 6372
by xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Coasting with PMDC motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Wooden battery spacers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: noalox/nooxid
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) BBB , where was I
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: EV digest 6372
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: hi all
by "sushrut patgaonkar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Another GM Anti-PEV Hit? Apparently A Swedish Victim And A Smoking Gun
From 10 Months Ago
by murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV digest 6372
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: hi all
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
This would be better. The best heat engine would have no throttle (ex. diesel
or special "gas" engine) for max. efficiency, although I think that diesel
would win out because of higher compression ratio.
There's variable speed DC output diesel generators in the boat world now but as
far as I know they're water-cooled and expensive. I don't know if they meet
any type of emissions standard either.
----- Original Message ----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 1:00:11 PM
Subject: RE: EV digest 6372
What about running your generator on Propane or CNG? Wouldn't that be
much cleaner than running it on gasoline? Hendrix systems has
conversion kits for most generators to make them run on CNG or LPG. If
you wanted to make your generator run more effeciently you could always
run it with a megasquirt fuel injection system and a motorcycle
catalytic converter.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV digest 6372
Well, series hybrid has established inefficiencies in the gen head,
battery cycle, controller/motor. They're fairly high, easily 1/3 the
energy or more will be lost.
The energy's still coming from fuel. The only principle that makes any
sense out of this is that a small engine at constant RPM & load is going
to be more efficient than a large engine at varying RPMs and load. This
is only "sort of" true. Nowadays car engines with computer controls are
fairly well tuned to deliver a good efficiency over most of the power
range.
Ad hoc generators on the other hand are fairly crude and inefficient
beasts. They're hardly tuned for efficiency like a car engine.
Lacking sensors, computer controls, any emissions systems including a
cat, they're equivalent to pre-emissions vehicles which is typically
many, many times worse emissions than a modern car.
Now if you had a very special generator in mind- like a Capstone
Microturbine or some new Atkinson-cycle engine- that could be something
worth looking into. Still, it has to get really really good efficiency
to overcome the large series losses. Well, heck, if you had a
microturbine I'd say it'd be cool enough just to have a turbine-powered
car even if you lost a few mpg.
Danny
David Roden wrote:
>On 2 Feb 2007 at 7:47, Joseph Lado wrote:
>
>
>
>>>Usings a genset powering an electric motor will result in a vehicle
>>>that gets very poor milage and produces very high polution. Why
>>>would you want to do that?
>>>
>>>
>>Series hybrids are less polluting and are more efficient than using a
>>gasoline engine alone by a factor of three without counting
>>regenerative braking and the advantages of using batteries.
>>
>>
>
>Factor of three? Please document these numbers. They may hold true
>against a 1967 ICE, but I'm skeptical that they will do so against a
2007 ICE.
>
>I'm fairly sure that Peter was speaking of an off the shelf industrial
>or home genset. These are usually inefficient gross polluters.
>
>I'm skeptical about the figures you quote, but in any case a properly
>designed series hybrid with full emissions controls will certainly be a
>drastic improvement over an ad-hoc genset setup. But none of those is
>available for purchase!
>
>
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Prius is great for reasons other than its "hybrid" status. It's got a
super-low drag coefficient for one.
But most of all it uses an Atkinson-cycle engine instead of an Otto,
which has never been done in a car. Atkinsons is supposed to be very
efficient and powerful but only in one narrow RPM range making it
useless for a car. The CVT allow the engine to run at that RPM at any
vehicle speed, and the electric motor further fills in the gaps to make
it driveable.
Danny
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
What about the Toyota Prius? It runs in full electric or gas. When in
gas mode it is charging the battery pack.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of damon henry
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:40
To: [email protected]
Subject: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
From: Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
How can it put this more clearly? YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! Peter you are one
of the people readers look to for answers on this list. You have got to
get your numbers straight and really investigate your opinion on this
mater, because you don't have it right. Series hybrids are less
polluting and are more efficient than using a gasoline engine alone by
a factor of three without counting regenerative braking and the
advantages of using batteries. With ever improving techniques to
recapture wasted energy through the braking process and using the
generator only at its optimum to charge the batteries when they go
below 40%, you in essence have an electric vehicle that sometimes uses
gasoline to either keep going when the batteries are depleated or
charge up the batteries when there isn't a plug to be used.
Hi Joseph,
Perhaps you can point me to an example of a series hybrid that has
managed to do all of the above successfully. I have yet to see one,
especially not one built in someones garage. The only successfull
series hybrids I am aware of are the enourmous type used in ships,
trains, etc...
I think you may be confusing theory with practice.
damon
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As I'm still learning about batteries, I am of the opinion that lead acid
batteries have the highest success rate when it comes to recycling. What is
the potential of recycled lead? Do any battery manufacturers use recycled
lead? Wouldn't recycled lead cost less to manufacture than "new" lead?
Also, how expensive do traditional batteries have to get before we begin
considering lithium ion technology?
I have yet to begin my restoration process of my two EV's and am considering
replacing the EV1 SCR and original electronics with lithium ion.
Don Davidson
1982 Bradley GT Electric
1980 Jet ElectraVan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: trojan price increase 150%?
> Get on the Trojan Web site and find out who is the distributor for your
area
> is. Contact them, and tell them that you are doing research on EV's and
> want to test out your batteries. You will need to order a pallet load at
a
> time, or 50 batteries. They will then deliver them right to your place.
>
> You will have to accepted any lose of any bad battery in the pack, that
> where the extra batteries with the same date comes in. On the electrical
> equipment, it is a 100 percent mark up from the factory to the wholesaler
> and than another 50 to 100 percent mark up from the wholesaler to the
> retailer. Some of these venders need this markup to handle any bad items
> or replacements.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 7:41 AM
> Subject: trojan price increase 150%?
>
>
> > My vehicle repair just jumped 150%
> > Is this true for anyone else.?
> > I purchased 1 Trojan T-125 3 months ago for $85
> > The same store just quoted me $140 per battery (and that's not even with
> > the post I want).
> >
> > I'm tempted to just drop the 3 batteries entirely and run at 138 Volts
> > (compared to 156) if I could figure the easiest way to reset the Zivan
> > without the $140 for roundtrip shipping and California Zivan to
reprogram
> > it. Other recomendations?
> >
> > What happened?! to battery pricing?
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think if the only use for the generator was to supply DC back to the
pack then maybe a small 2 cylinder motor coupled to a ADC 6.7" motor.
That would supply many amps back to the pack. A regulator could be
attached to the field to regulate charge on the pack. If you wanted
even more efficiency I guess you could modify a 3 phase AC motor to
generate power and then rectify it back to DC.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Frank John
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 13:20
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV digest 6372
This would be better. The best heat engine would have no throttle (ex.
diesel or special "gas" engine) for max. efficiency, although I think
that diesel would win out because of higher compression ratio.
There's variable speed DC output diesel generators in the boat world now
but as far as I know they're water-cooled and expensive. I don't know
if they meet any type of emissions standard either.
----- Original Message ----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 1:00:11 PM
Subject: RE: EV digest 6372
What about running your generator on Propane or CNG? Wouldn't that be
much cleaner than running it on gasoline? Hendrix systems has
conversion kits for most generators to make them run on CNG or LPG. If
you wanted to make your generator run more effeciently you could always
run it with a megasquirt fuel injection system and a motorcycle
catalytic converter.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:54
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV digest 6372
Well, series hybrid has established inefficiencies in the gen head,
battery cycle, controller/motor. They're fairly high, easily 1/3 the
energy or more will be lost.
The energy's still coming from fuel. The only principle that makes any
sense out of this is that a small engine at constant RPM & load is going
to be more efficient than a large engine at varying RPMs and load. This
is only "sort of" true. Nowadays car engines with computer controls are
fairly well tuned to deliver a good efficiency over most of the power
range.
Ad hoc generators on the other hand are fairly crude and inefficient
beasts. They're hardly tuned for efficiency like a car engine.
Lacking sensors, computer controls, any emissions systems including a
cat, they're equivalent to pre-emissions vehicles which is typically
many, many times worse emissions than a modern car.
Now if you had a very special generator in mind- like a Capstone
Microturbine or some new Atkinson-cycle engine- that could be something
worth looking into. Still, it has to get really really good efficiency
to overcome the large series losses. Well, heck, if you had a
microturbine I'd say it'd be cool enough just to have a turbine-powered
car even if you lost a few mpg.
Danny
David Roden wrote:
>On 2 Feb 2007 at 7:47, Joseph Lado wrote:
>
>
>
>>>Usings a genset powering an electric motor will result in a vehicle
>>>that gets very poor milage and produces very high polution. Why
>>>would you want to do that?
>>>
>>>
>>Series hybrids are less polluting and are more efficient than using a
>>gasoline engine alone by a factor of three without counting
>>regenerative braking and the advantages of using batteries.
>>
>>
>
>Factor of three? Please document these numbers. They may hold true
>against a 1967 ICE, but I'm skeptical that they will do so against a
2007 ICE.
>
>I'm fairly sure that Peter was speaking of an off the shelf industrial
>or home genset. These are usually inefficient gross polluters.
>
>I'm skeptical about the figures you quote, but in any case a properly
>designed series hybrid with full emissions controls will certainly be a
>drastic improvement over an ad-hoc genset setup. But none of those is
>available for purchase!
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
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I think this is the 2nd car this party has offered.
----- Original Message ----
From: Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 6:24:15 AM
Subject: Honda CRX conversion on ebay
Located in Utah is a 72Volt Conversion- Maybe a
e-volks conversion from the description. For those
looking for prebuilt EV
Item: 200075312724
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--- Begin Message ---
Joseph Lado wrote:
> Peter, you are mistaken. You are one of the people readers look to for
answers on this list, however, you have got to get your numbers straight
and really investigate your opinion on this mater, because you don't have it
right. Series hybrids are less polluting and are more efficient than using a
gasoline engine alone by a factor of three without counting regenerative
braking and the advantages of using batteries.
Joseph, can you please provide the literature/information that backs up your
claims? I have only read a little bit (the research done by AC Propulsion),
and they are getting about 30mpg with a genset. No so good...
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joseph Lado
Sent: February 2, 2007 8:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EV digest 6372
>Subject: Re: hi all
>From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [email protected]
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>Hi Sushrut,
>Just out of curiousity, are you fixated on this idea of a series
>hybrid, or are
you willing to listen when people tell you it's not a good idea?
>Usings a genset powering an electric motor will result in a vehicle
>that gets very poor milage and produces very high polution. Why would
>you want to do that?
Peter, you are mistaken. You are one of the people readers look to for
answers on this list, however, you have got to get your numbers straight and
really investigate your opinion on this mater, because you don't have it
right. Series hybrids are less polluting and are more efficient than using a
gasoline engine alone by a factor of three without counting regenerative
braking and the advantages of using batteries. With ever improving
techniques to recapture wasted energy through the braking process and using
the generator only at its optimum to charge the batteries when they go
below 40%, you in essence have an electric vehicle that sometimes uses
gasoline to either keep going when the batteries are depleated or charge up
the batteries when there isn't a plug to be used. You are forgetting to
count in the enourmous lost of energy from gearing, called mechanical
losses. These losses are the reason you see people going back to the hub
motor time and time again to see if they can make it work. No gears, shafts
and the like between the motor and the wheel means energy saved that would
otherwise be lost to the mechanicals. Serializing an electric vehicle may be
the only way at this time to get electric like plug-in vehicles on the road
to the general public. It is the all important step to having a future of
electric vehicles. Your comments just kill that and confuse people who
otherwise might buy a series hybrid (a range extended EV) who wouldn't buy
an EV because of the long charge up times and the fear of getting stuck on
the road with no way to get back home. I have yet to see a mobile quick
charging recker on the road. Please think again about what you are saying
about series hybrids, especially in the light that you are an EV enthusiast.
Joseph Lado
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--- Begin Message ---
I recently acquired some 1" x 1" HDPE rod. HDPE (High Density
PolyEthelyne) is the same material used to make milk jugs, tupperware,
and fuel tanks(!). It's pretty much impervious to sulfuric acid (lead
acid batteries), and potassium hydroxide (flooded nicads), at least in
the concentrations found in batteries.
It's relatively cheap. I cut it using a metal cutting bandsaw, and a
blade that's about 15 TPI. You can use a finer blade (like a hacksaw),
but it won't work as well. I suspect a wood saw will cut it nicely, but
powered wood cutting equipment will likely generate too much heat.
It's easily drilled (use a low speed) and tapped, and somewhat sandable.
It can handle up to about 100C continuously.
Richard Rau wrote:
In the conversion that I'm now doing, three of the five battery boxes are
designed to hold two levels of batteries. I am now experimenting with
various materials for use as spacers between the lower and upper levels. In
other words, I will be using blocks setting on top of the lower batteries as
supports for the upper ones.
Recent trials with plastics showed interesting results. Polypropylene and
ABS were both stuck to one of polycarbonate battery cases using 3M high
strength adhesive transfer tape. The inexpensive polypropylene did not hold
a bond near as well as the more costly ABS. So ABS wins out for it's
ability to stay put.
After a lot of fussing, my thoughts went back to good ol' wood. It seems
that a solid and stable hardwood would give decent performance if the
environment remained mostly acid free. So I guess that is the question. Is
it unwise for me to consider using this organic material because of its
susceptibility to deterioration? These quality AGM's sure look
unthreatening at this point. What do you think?
Many Kw's of appreciation for your thoughts!
Note- The boxes are vented and I am building a killer charging system that
is a combination of PFC-30 for bulk charging and ventilated Soneil 3-amp
modulars for finishing.
Richard at N.W. Electric Vehicles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 2/2/2007 5:55:11 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> bj: Re: Battery Beach Burnout
> Date:2/2/2007 5:55:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet:
>
>
>
> Guys &Girls,
>
> Did anyone take pictures of the EV participants? I am particularly
> interested in the Freedom EV.
>
> Pat
I too am intrested in the S10 with the 2k zilla and warp 13in motor.What were
its et and mph? Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> >Subject: Re: hi all
> >From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: [email protected]
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
>
> >Hi Sushrut,
>
> >Just out of curiousity, are you fixated on this
> idea of a series hybrid,
> >or are you willing to listen when people tell you
> it's not a good idea?
>
> >Usings a genset powering an electric motor will
> result in a vehicle that
> >gets very poor milage and produces very high
> polution. Why would you want
> >to do that?
>
I think you'd want to do that because at this time to
get a lot of range you have to load your vehicle up
with heavy and expensive batteries, and you still
won't end up with great range. Seems to me a range
extender genset is a potential cost and weight
efficient way to get greater range. If you have
enough battery to get 15-20 mile ev range that might
take care of your daily needs, then fire up the gen
when you need more range. So over time if you mostly
use the plug in batteries you're very efficient, and
once in a while you use the genset for extended range.
John
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--- Begin Message ---
John Foster wrote:
I guess it must be a pretty small loss then?
Spin a PM motor with another motor, and measure the extra power that the
drive motor takes when spinning that PM motor. You'll find it is 10% or
so of the PM motor's rating (more for cheap little motors; less for big
expensive ones). Is that a "pretty small loss"?
Is it practical to physically move the magnets out?
It's possible, but may not be practical. The magnets exert a powerful
pull, so the mechanical force needed is very high. One way this has been
done in certain applications is to mechanically move the rotor (with the
commutator and brushes)in/out of the stator assembly (with the magnets).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Rau wrote:
three of the five battery boxes are designed to hold two levels of
batteries. I am now experimenting with various materials for use
as spacers between the lower and upper levels.
Why not check with the dealer where you bought the batteries, and see if
he still has any of the spacers they use for shipping them? It is pretty
common for them to put the batteries on pallets, 2 or more high, with a
specially made spacer between the layers. I'll bet these spacers are
simply discarded by the recipient. The ones I've seen look like vacuum
formed plastic.
After a lot of fussing, my thoughts went back to good ol' wood.
Wood seems like one of the least desirable materials. It's not
dimensionally stable (warps), is conductive when it absorbs water, and
is attacked by battery acid.
You could use the wood-like decking lumber that is made from sawdust and
recycled plastics. It can be cut, sawed, screwed, and nailed like wood;
but because it is mostly plastic, it doesn't have the above drawbacks of
real wood. I have a piece I soaked in battery acid for a month as a
test; it turned black (probably from the destroyed wood fiber), but
didn't change dimensionally or conduct electricity.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Humphrey wrote:
The correct procedure is to clean the posts and terminals, assemble
them, torque 'em down, THEN coat with whatever protective substance
you decide to use... I use axle grease, mainly because I have it.
The idea is to keep the acid mist and the air OFF your connections.
That's the way I see it, too. Fresh clean lead-to-lead connections are
good as-is; dry, without any special "goop" between them. The reason for
using "goop" of your favorite flavor :-) is to *keep* the connection
from corroding over time, as it loosens due to vibration, temperature
cycling, and acid mist. Air and water get in, corrode the surfaces, and
you have bad connection.
The special (expensive) contact greases are usually made for special
connection problems between dissimilar metals, or with aluminum (which
is a particularly difficult case).
I use vaseline simply because it works, it's cheap, and it's easy to
clean up afterwards.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I started getting ready for BBB 2 weeks before so how did I miss the first
event , friday night? Well here's my story ,,, Don's s-10 with the big 13 "
motor comes by my shop 2 weeks before and we did the last of the wiring and all
seemed good ,, Don's been planning BBB for a year and things where getting
together at the end now . I get a call from him about a week before about some
motor problems , and he's got to send it back ,,, Truns out the timing wasn't
set right ,, Its looks like it won't be back in time .,,BUT ... I have a 11"
motor sitting in my shop ,, Don's got the time off from work ,, And I'm
feeling bad that he's going to miss bbb .. So I say ,, bring your truck over
early friday and will put the 11 in and then head for bbb which is about 50
miles away... 8 am with start ,, the first dry day in 3 days ,,, I haven't yet
had a chance to try the parellel series shifting on my 2 9" porsche 912 so we
are off to the metal store to get plates for the motor mount and!
it looks like a good time to test on my car ... I believe it did the shift ,,
but the heavy amp pull found the battery with a poor conection and we had a
event ... Lots of smoke , but as it was comming from the front where just
batteries where I wasn't to worried ,,, a few miniuts of rewireing and we where
on our way ,,, with 6 batteries out of the loop ... getting home we went right
to work ,,, I have the 925 hawkers wired with this ground strap cable that had
some eyelits that ended up being the week link , t... So in between helping
Don ,. I replaced them with regular cables ,,, and fooled around recharging
the pack that now was at two points of discharge ,,, along with the new
battery I put in ( used the one from the lights as it had some brake in time on
it ) .... We are all working fast but the clock just kept on ticking . 3:00
with the leave time but some how it came and went ,,, and before I know it its
9:00 ,,, I didn't't have time to pick up a generator as pla!
nned and now face a 50 mile trip towing the 912 with my ev work truck
,,, Yes it was late but we went anyway ,, I needed to get there so as to be
there saterday all charged up for the distance event ,, so off we went ,,, Well
I really needed that generater ,, and ended up driving pretty slow to make it
,,, which ment when we got there it was over ,,, I plugged in as soon as I got
there but people where leaving and the place was very empty .... ;-( Where
dose the time go ,,, any way we where there ,, I left the truck charging at the
camp ground with the charger pulling 10 amp and went to get some sleep ,,,, I
missed seeing any of the cars run and the people who made them ,,, bummer ,
but at least I'll be there for the saterday events ,, or so I though ,,,,
Part 2 ,,, how I missed the range event
Steve Clunn ,,,
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--- Begin Message ---
I would think with a genset you COULD make it very efficient and not
polluting. You could have a car that for the most part fulfilled your
needs and the genset, although a pain in the but, would offer the
benefit of charging on the fly for longer trips. You could run it on
CNG or propane to make it much cleaner or you could fuel inject it and
run after treatments to its exhaust.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of xx xx
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 14:23
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV digest 6372
> >Subject: Re: hi all
> >From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: [email protected]
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
>
> >Hi Sushrut,
>
> >Just out of curiousity, are you fixated on this
> idea of a series hybrid,
> >or are you willing to listen when people tell you
> it's not a good idea?
>
> >Usings a genset powering an electric motor will
> result in a vehicle that
> >gets very poor milage and produces very high
> polution. Why would you want
> >to do that?
>
I think you'd want to do that because at this time to get a lot of range
you have to load your vehicle up with heavy and expensive batteries, and
you still won't end up with great range. Seems to me a range extender
genset is a potential cost and weight efficient way to get greater
range. If you have enough battery to get 15-20 mile ev range that might
take care of your daily needs, then fire up the gen when you need more
range. So over time if you mostly use the plug in batteries you're very
efficient, and once in a while you use the genset for extended range.
John
________________________________________________________________________
____________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
if i consider the fact that series hybrids dont work then should i search
for , research on parallel hybrids and plug in hybrids
i was very inspired by the ford hyseries
what technology according to you has the most scope for development
i was reading a book in our library about 21st century vehicles,, it is by a
Mr Robert
it described series / parallel and pure electric vehicles
a alternator connected to drive can therotically improve range as long as i
can solve the weight issue
a gas engine in series or parallel can stop the stranding of a user using an
ev
also it can act as much neede back up
i have seen pictures of a rav4 with a generator trailer ,,,so why not
integrate the trailer into the body ,, weight being the most important
factor
that is another reason i chose the mahindra jeep as it is light and has
ample of space for such addons to be integrated inside the engine
compartment
nickel metal hydride nimh batteries are easier to source than li ion also
cheaper
but my efforts are to bypass the batteries of the ev altogether
a concept called chrysler patriot has a gas turbine , flywheel and electric
motor in a lemans racer
please suggest me a direction or am too far away from track
i will drive about 50 km per day with 450 km jorney from Mumbai to Ahmedabad
once a month and a further 163 trip from Mumbai to Dombivil
so i need a very long range without consuming resources
also if i sell the vehicle in India it has to be practical
India has a very very huge market for 80 kmplitre vehicles
Buses , cars , intercity buses , tractors , rural vehicles , inter village
State transport systems , trucks , vans , factory equipment can run on
biofuels
though India recently closed biodiesel plants but i know they will start
once petrol reaches 75 rupees per litre
so now the time is right for eco alternatives
please comment on this
regards
Sushrut
On 2/2/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Sushrut,
Just out of curiousity, are you fixated on this idea of a series hybrid,
or are you willing to listen when people tell you it's not a good idea?
Usings a genset powering an electric motor will result in a vehicle that
gets very poor milage and produces very high polution. Why would you want
to do that?
> what configurations of ac motors should i look for to get 150 kmph in an
> suv
>
>
> Ihave just found a jeep chassis
>
> i am goiing for ac motors
>
> i am thinking of a honda genset
>
> can such a genset power my ev
>
> what technicalities should i look out for when designing my ev
>
> i am a beginner so any and all information is useful
>
> thank you all
> Sushrut
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The bodies of wrecked cars and wrecked projects are piling up, over many
decades, as GM compiles its record of anti-Electric-Fuel actions:
"Did GM Screw Saab's Hybrid?"
http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2006/04/did_gm_screw_sa.html
The followup Story:
"The Smoking Gun"
http://www.trollhattansaab.net/archives/2006/04/the_smoking_gun.html
-----------------
My comment:
Can we discount even further all the talk coming from Mssrs. Wagoner and Lutz,
as to their in-earnest attempts to build a "VOLT" PEV and sell it to American
consumers? What attempt did they make to resuscitate the victim and bring back
the plug to Saab's concept vehicle?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yup, ALL of the currently commercially available Hybrid autos are parallel
hybrids.
A series hybrid has to convert Mechanical energy/power into electrical
energy/power (where you loose some energy/power) and then back to
mechanical energy/power (where you loose some more).
If you have sized your ICE so that it is too small to handle continuous
operation at highway speeds, and plan to make up for it by storing surplus
power generated earlier, then you also have storage looses.
So a series hybrid is a loose, loose, (loose) situation. Yes the ICE can
be tuned to operate at a somewhat higher efficiency since it only has to
run at one power level; but, unless you spend BIG buxks to buy ultra high
efficiency motors and generators, then looses in the energy conversion
outweight the gains.
Plus, unless you size the ICE large enough to handle contiuous operation,
you need to stop periodically to recharge.
If you DO size the ICE large enough for continuous, high speed operation,
then it needs to be LARGER, and hence less efficient, than if you sized it
for direct mechanical connection to the wheels.
Secondly, unless you start out with an automobile engine, then you will
almost certainly have more polution. The smaller engines used on gensets
have little to no polution controls on them. For a given amount of power
produced, these small engines produce HUNDREDS of times as much polution.
Even if you could get away with an ICE that's 1/10 the size of a normal
car, that is still tens to hundreds of times as much polution.
Can anyone provide documented evidence of a series hybrid that can beat
any of the current ICE vehicles? I don't mean the "Mother Earth" hybrid
scam which even Mother Earth magazine admitted they couldn't duplicate,
and I don't mean "Well, I did this back in 1970, but I don't have any
proof"
I mean a verifiable series hybrid, preferably one that still exists and
can be tested for both fuel economy and emissions.
> The Prius is a parallel hybrid: either electric only to the wheels(low
> speeds and low loads), gas only to the wheels (drive and recharge
> batteries at same time), or both (ex. electric aid to acceleration). The
> common definition of a series device (at least the way I understand it) is
> that drive to the wheels is accomplished via electric motor only, with
> heat engine generator used to supply electricity to the batteries.
> Toyota's system uses a power splitter device with two inputs which directs
> power to the wheels.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 12:51:00 PM
> Subject: RE: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
>
> What about the Toyota Prius? It runs in full electric or gas. When in
> gas mode it is charging the battery pack.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of damon henry
> Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 12:40
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
>
>
>
>
>>From: Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>
>>How can it put this more clearly? YOU ARE WRONG!!!!! Peter you are one
>>of the people readers look to for answers on this list. You have got to
>
>>get your numbers straight and really investigate your opinion on this
>>mater, because you don't have it right. Series hybrids are less
>>polluting and are more efficient than using a gasoline engine alone by
>>a factor of three without counting regenerative braking and the
>>advantages of using batteries. With ever improving techniques to
>>recapture wasted energy through the braking process and using the
>>generator only at its optimum to charge the batteries when they go
>>below 40%, you in essence have an electric vehicle that sometimes uses
>>gasoline to either keep going when the batteries are depleated or
>>charge up the batteries when there isn't a plug to be used.
>
> Hi Joseph,
>
> Perhaps you can point me to an example of a series hybrid that has
> managed to do all of the above successfully. I have yet to see one,
> especially not one built in someones garage. The only successfull
> series hybrids I am aware of are the enourmous type used in ships,
> trains, etc...
>
> I think you may be confusing theory with practice.
>
> damon
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Invite your Hotmail contacts to join your friends list with Windows Live
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> t=en-us
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.
> Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta.
> http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/newmail_tools.html
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not to mention a genset may make it feasible for people with need or means
for only one car to have an EV, and use the genset when the need arises -
even a trailer or pusher in states where they are legal. Hmm...modular
vehicles...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 2:37 PM
Subject: RE: EV digest 6372
I would think with a genset you COULD make it very efficient and not
polluting. You could have a car that for the most part fulfilled your
needs and the genset, although a pain in the but, would offer the
benefit of charging on the fly for longer trips. You could run it on
CNG or propane to make it much cleaner or you could fuel inject it and
run after treatments to its exhaust.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of xx xx
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 14:23
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV digest 6372
>Subject: Re: hi all
>From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [email protected]
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>Hi Sushrut,
>Just out of curiousity, are you fixated on this
idea of a series hybrid,
>or are you willing to listen when people tell you
it's not a good idea?
>Usings a genset powering an electric motor will
result in a vehicle that
>gets very poor milage and produces very high
polution. Why would you want
>to do that?
I think you'd want to do that because at this time to get a lot of range
you have to load your vehicle up with heavy and expensive batteries, and
you still won't end up with great range. Seems to me a range extender
genset is a potential cost and weight efficient way to get greater
range. If you have enough battery to get 15-20 mile ev range that might
take care of your daily needs, then fire up the gen when you need more
range. So over time if you mostly use the plug in batteries you're very
efficient, and once in a while you use the genset for extended range.
John
________________________________________________________________________
____________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I didn't say they don't work. They work, just not as well as a parallel
hybrid and every one that I can recall has been less efficient than a
standard auto.
Adding a gen set to a EV can indeed extend range, but at the cost of poor
mileage and higher pollution.
Most of the generators currently available have no pollution control
systems. Some of the new ones from Honda (and perhaps others) have some
limited polution controls, but nothing as good as what typically found on
a car. A small lawn mower engine can produce as much pollution in one
hour as a large SUV will produce in 100 (or more) hours of operation.
Adding polution control to a small engine isn't all that practical. For
example, you can't just bolt on any old catylitic converter. The
catylitic converter needs to be properly sized to the engine. To big and
it won't get hot enough to work, to small and it over heats and is
destroyed.
The best bet IMHO is a parallel hybrid. You could use a very small ICE
from a small, high efficiency car. This will have all of the pollution
controls already as well as a fuel injection system designed to provide
maximum efficiency and minimum polution. Some (most?) will modify their
operation on the fly to produc emaximum power when needed. ICEs require
different tuning for maximum efficiency vs. minimum emmisions vs. maximum
power. There is no one fuel mixture that will provide all of these at the
same time, or even two of them at the same time.
You can either connect the ICE to one set of wheels and drive the other
with the electric motor, or put the ICE on a trailer and have it push the
EV (has the advantage of being able to leave it at home when not needed),
or some other arrangement to mix the power from the ICE and the electric
motor.
Add a large generator/alternator head to the ICE and you can recharge the
batteries as needed.
This system has the advantage of being able to operate as a series hybrid
for the rare situation where this has advantages, as well as being able to
run the power directly from the ICE to the groud without having two sets
of conversion looses as you change mechanical power to eletrical and then
back to mechanical. Each conversion is going to loose 10-20% (or more if
you use really cheap parts) of your energy/power.
> if i consider the fact that series hybrids dont work then should i search
> for , research on parallel hybrids and plug in hybrids
>
> i was very inspired by the ford hyseries
>
> what technology according to you has the most scope for development
>
> i was reading a book in our library about 21st century vehicles,, it is by
> a
> Mr Robert
>
> it described series / parallel and pure electric vehicles
>
> a alternator connected to drive can therotically improve range as long as
> i
> can solve the weight issue
>
> a gas engine in series or parallel can stop the stranding of a user using
> an
> ev
>
> also it can act as much neede back up
>
> i have seen pictures of a rav4 with a generator trailer ,,,so why not
> integrate the trailer into the body ,, weight being the most important
> factor
>
> that is another reason i chose the mahindra jeep as it is light and has
> ample of space for such addons to be integrated inside the engine
> compartment
>
> nickel metal hydride nimh batteries are easier to source than li ion also
> cheaper
>
> but my efforts are to bypass the batteries of the ev altogether
>
> a concept called chrysler patriot has a gas turbine , flywheel and
> electric
> motor in a lemans racer
>
> please suggest me a direction or am too far away from track
>
> i will drive about 50 km per day with 450 km jorney from Mumbai to
> Ahmedabad
> once a month and a further 163 trip from Mumbai to Dombivil
>
> so i need a very long range without consuming resources
>
> also if i sell the vehicle in India it has to be practical
>
> India has a very very huge market for 80 kmplitre vehicles
>
> Buses , cars , intercity buses , tractors , rural vehicles , inter village
> State transport systems , trucks , vans , factory equipment can run on
> biofuels
> though India recently closed biodiesel plants but i know they will start
> once petrol reaches 75 rupees per litre
>
> so now the time is right for eco alternatives
>
> please comment on this
>
> regards
> Sushrut
>
>
>
> On 2/2/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sushrut,
>>
>> Just out of curiousity, are you fixated on this idea of a series hybrid,
>> or are you willing to listen when people tell you it's not a good idea?
>>
>> Usings a genset powering an electric motor will result in a vehicle that
>> gets very poor milage and produces very high polution. Why would you
>> want
>> to do that?
>>
>> > what configurations of ac motors should i look for to get 150 kmph in
>> an
>> > suv
>> >
>> >
>> > Ihave just found a jeep chassis
>> >
>> > i am goiing for ac motors
>> >
>> > i am thinking of a honda genset
>> >
>> > can such a genset power my ev
>> >
>> > what technicalities should i look out for when designing my ev
>> >
>> > i am a beginner so any and all information is useful
>> >
>> > thank you all
>> > Sushrut
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
>> I
>> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
>> legalistic signature is void.
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
