EV Digest 6381
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Wiring a momentary voltage doubler for a contactor - diode?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Unvented Propane heaters
by xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Speaking of Hybrids
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Wiring a momentary voltage doubler for a contactor - diode?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Wiring a momentary voltage doubler for a contactor - diode?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: electrovaya BEV SUV
by "james s" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Please straighten me out (energy usage)...
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Miles vs speed
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Unvented Propane heaters
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Question about pot connectors for MES-DEA drive system
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery Question
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Disconnects. Was: Battery Washing
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: The Series Hybrid Debate
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Sydney AEVA meeting -- next Tuesday
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: LPG/LNG/CNG, diesel, enviromnent.
by "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure about this circuit, but in general I diode is used across the
coil of the contactor to supress the voltage spike that occurs when the
contactor is deenergized. That coil which is being held open with 12 volts
will feed back a spike several times that voltage when it is turned off
potentially damaging other electronics.
damon
From: Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: EV List <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Wiring a momentary voltage doubler for a contactor - diode? Date:
Sat, 3 Feb 2007 15:16:45 -0800 (PST)
Some time ago Lee Hart described how to wire a momentary voltage doubler to
enable the use of a 24V contactor in a 12 volt system. You use a DPDT
switch or relay to, in the "normal" position, charge up a capacitor, then
when the switch or relay is activated, the wiring is routed in series
through the capacitor and then to the contactor, giving a brief pulse of
24V to close the contacts, then tapering back to 12V as the capacitor
discharges. 12V may not be enough to make the contacts on a 24V contactor
close when they're open, but it is enough to keep them closed afterwards..
I liked the circuit because of its simplicity, the built-in "coil
economizer" effect of having the voltage decline naturally shortly after
contact is made -- and the fact that I picked up several beefy 24V
contactors. So I built one, and it works. But the original archived
post says: "Once the capacitor discharges, a diode applies the 12v
continuously to hold it in." The one I built works fine without the diode,
and I'm having trouble figuring out why I need it and exactly where it
goes. I'm assuming that the capacitor allows the battery current to flow
through it - do I need a diode in parallel with it?. Is that a problem?
Lee? Anyone?
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--- Begin Message ---
I also have a Mr. Heater unit that mounts to a propane
tank. I used it in a large shop and never really
noticed anything, unless something got on the burner
grate and burned up. Those are a little different
than my propane "fireplace". The Mr. Heater, (at
least the one I'm talking about), is an infra red type
radiant heater, whereas the fireplace is a flame type
heater, which is rated for use in a home.
John
--- JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I use a 'Mr. Heater Portable Buddy' propane heater
> to heat my
> garage/workshop.
> It has a low oxygen cut-off. But I do not like the
> odor it leaves behind.
> Have you noticed this?
>
> John in Sylmar, CA
>
>
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I think a good way to do a plug-in hybrid is to take a FWD car, and add
an electric motor to drive the rear wheels.
Then you can use the electric motor around town, and use the gas motor
on the freeway.
I've been building just such a car, I've converted one rear wheel into a
driven wheel powered by an electric motor.
However, I'm having trouble and could use some suggestions. I
originally used a 1" wide belt drive to power the wheel, but the belt would
slip when enough torque was applied to move the car.
So I've changed it to use a chain drive. The problem now is the chain
makes a huge amount of noise! more noise than ICE does.
Has anyone else done a chain or belt drive setup? Are there chain
drives that are not so noisy? Or belts that can handle a lot of torque.
A 3" wide belt?
I'm considering trying the snowmobile CVT setup, but its a little
expensive for this project.
Thanks,
Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A lot of custom choppers use very wide toothed belts
to handle the torque. Might work for you.
John
--- Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think a good way to do a plug-in hybrid is to take
> a FWD car, and add
> an electric motor to drive the rear wheels.
> Then you can use the electric motor around town, and
> use the gas motor
> on the freeway.
>
> I've been building just such a car, I've converted
> one rear wheel into a
> driven wheel powered by an electric motor.
> However, I'm having trouble and could use some
> suggestions. I
> originally used a 1" wide belt drive to power the
> wheel, but the belt would
> slip when enough torque was applied to move the car.
>
> So I've changed it to use a chain drive. The
> problem now is the chain
> makes a huge amount of noise! more noise than ICE
> does.
> Has anyone else done a chain or belt drive setup?
> Are there chain
> drives that are not so noisy? Or belts that can
> handle a lot of torque.
> A 3" wide belt?
> I'm considering trying the snowmobile CVT setup, but
> its a little
> expensive for this project.
>
> Thanks,
> Jack
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jack,
I was about to do this type of hybrid before I built my 77 El Camino EV back
in 1985. I found a 88 front wheel drive Buick that the rear section of the
trunk area was shear off. I could not find another 88 front wheel drive
Buick. I would have connected the front of the car to the rear section of
the other car facing rearward.
Replace that one engine with a motor, but leave the steering unit and dash
for the electric motor control system. You could drive the car in one
direction using the engine, and drive in the reversed direction using the
motor.
The car would look like it would go down the road backwards. Have someone
sit in the rear and wave to a cop pretending that you are driving the car
backwards.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 6:37 PM
Subject: Speaking of Hybrids
> I think a good way to do a plug-in hybrid is to take a FWD car, and add
> an electric motor to drive the rear wheels.
> Then you can use the electric motor around town, and use the gas motor
> on the freeway.
>
> I've been building just such a car, I've converted one rear wheel into a
> driven wheel powered by an electric motor.
> However, I'm having trouble and could use some suggestions. I
> originally used a 1" wide belt drive to power the wheel, but the belt
> would
> slip when enough torque was applied to move the car.
> So I've changed it to use a chain drive. The problem now is the chain
> makes a huge amount of noise! more noise than ICE does.
> Has anyone else done a chain or belt drive setup? Are there chain
> drives that are not so noisy? Or belts that can handle a lot of torque.
> A 3" wide belt?
> I'm considering trying the snowmobile CVT setup, but its a little
> expensive for this project.
>
> Thanks,
> Jack
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
I don't recall the circuit but in general it's bad for a
capacitor (this is no doubt an electrolytic capacitor or Elco)
to be charged in the opposite direction. About as bad as cell
reversal in a battery - it quickly destroys the component.
Best way to protect from this is to use a combination of two
diodes (though Lee may have a way to use only one ;-)
1. diode D1 from the capacitor plus to the contactor
2. diode D2 bypassing both capacitor and first diode to supply 12V directly.
The first diode will prevent that the capacitor is discharged below zero.
If the first diode is omitted and only the second diode present across
the capacitor then it is discharged to the *negative* voltage of the
forward drop of the second diode.
This is likely below 1V and not very harmful for an Elco,
though in the long run it may not really like it.
Since the EV is not run very often, relatively speaken, less
than 3% of the time my EV is run, the other 97% it is "off"
or recharging.
When the contactor is not used during recharging the short time
it is used with a negative voltage will likely not hurt the Elco.
It is easy to apply two diodes though, so why take the chance?
+-----------+----+
_|_ _|_ |
^ ^ | contactor coil
/_\ D2 D1 /_\ +-UUUU-+
| _____ | |
o--++-|_____|--+ |
+ | R | |
12v | --- |
| --- |
| | C |
| o o
| \ S1 \ S2
+--------o \o o \o
| |
GND | |
o-----------------+------+
Contactor coil is energized with 24V when S1 and S2 contacts are
closed simultaneously.
It is even possible to use a "Start" double-pole push-button to
close S1 and S2 and have a helper-contact on the contactor closing
in parallel to S2 to keep it energized. A second break-contact
"Stop" push-button can break the helper-contact circuit, which
de-energizes the contactor.
The values of C and R determine how quick the capacitor C recharges
to 12V to energize the contactor again.
For example a 10 Ohm, 10W resistor will allow to re-close the
contactor after about 10 seconds with a 1 Farad capacitor.
NOTE that the capacitor must be really big, around 1 Farad or more
(that is 1,000,000 uF) otherwise it cannot deliver several amps
for a fraction of a second.
This is the reason that commercial economizer circuits will usually
either have a simple series resistor switched into the contactor
coil circuit (for example in the helper contact), or use a PWM
(Pulse Width Modulation) circuit to drop voltage.
I have a contactor that draws more than 10A at 12V, the PWM circuit
drops that to less than 2V, 2A so below 4W after the initial burst
of way over 100W, which quickly heats up the coil. With the PWM
circuit, only 1/3 Amp is drawn from the 12V battery after the
initial 10+ Amp burst.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Steve Condie
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 3:17 PM
To: EV List
Subject: Wiring a momentary voltage doubler for a contactor - diode?
Some time ago Lee Hart described how to wire a momentary voltage doubler to
enable the use of a 24V contactor in a 12 volt system. You use a DPDT
switch or relay to, in the "normal" position, charge up a capacitor, then
when the switch or relay is activated, the wiring is routed in series
through the capacitor and then to the contactor, giving a brief pulse of 24V
to close the contacts, then tapering back to 12V as the capacitor
discharges. 12V may not be enough to make the contacts on a 24V contactor
close when they're open, but it is enough to keep them closed afterwards..
I liked the circuit because of its simplicity, the built-in "coil
economizer" effect of having the voltage decline naturally shortly after
contact is made -- and the fact that I picked up several beefy 24V
contactors. So I built one, and it works. But the original archived post
says: "Once the capacitor discharges, a diode applies the 12v continuously
to hold it in." The one I built works fine without the diode, and I'm
having trouble figuring out why I need it and exactly where it goes. I'm
assuming that the capacitor allows the battery current to flow through it -
do I need a diode in parallel with it?. Is that a problem? Lee? Anyone?
---------------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
Oh yes, in case a suppression diode is used, it is wired across
the coil as shown below. It does not influence the voltage doubler
at all, because the suppression diode only activates after opening
contact S2 (de-energizing the coil).
The resistor in series with the diode allows the coil to de-energize
quickly, else the risk of contacts opening slowly and sparking/welding
of the contactor is likely.
Instead of diode plus resistor also a voltage suppressor can be used
with rating higher than 12V as they usually are bi-directional and
they may conduct when the coil is normally energized.
The value of the resistor should match the supply current and
voltage for the coil.
For example if 2 Amp is flowing at 12V then the resistor should be
around 6 Ohms to get only 24V across S2 when opening.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: Cor van de Water
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 6:35 PM
To: 'ev@listproc.sjsu.edu'
Subject: RE: Wiring a momentary voltage doubler for a contactor - diode?
Steve,
I don't recall the circuit but in general it's bad for a
capacitor (this is no doubt an electrolytic capacitor or Elco)
to be charged in the opposite direction. About as bad as cell
reversal in a battery - it quickly destroys the component.
Best way to protect from this is to use a combination of two
diodes (though Lee may have a way to use only one ;-)
1. diode D1 from the capacitor plus to the contactor
2. diode D2 bypassing both capacitor and first diode to supply 12V directly.
The first diode will prevent that the capacitor is discharged below zero.
If the first diode is omitted and only the second diode present across
the capacitor then it is discharged to the *negative* voltage of the
forward drop of the second diode.
This is likely below 1V and not very harmful for an Elco,
though in the long run it may not really like it.
Since the EV is not run very often, relatively speaken, less
than 3% of the time my EV is run, the other 97% it is "off"
or recharging.
When the contactor is not used during recharging the short time
it is used with a negative voltage will likely not hurt the Elco.
It is easy to apply two diodes though, so why take the chance?
+-----------+----+
_|_ _|_ |
^ ^ | contactor coil
/_\ D2 D1 /_\ +-UUUU--+
| _____ | _|_ |
o--++-|_____|--+ ^ |
+ | R | /_\ |
12v | --- | ___ |
| --- +-|___|-+
| | C |
| o o
| \ S1 \ S2
+--------o \o o \o
| |
GND | |
o-----------------+-------+
Contactor coil is energized with 24V when S1 and S2 contacts are
closed simultaneously.
It is even possible to use a "Start" double-pole push-button to
close S1 and S2 and have a helper-contact on the contactor closing
in parallel to S2 to keep it energized. A second break-contact
"Stop" push-button can break the helper-contact circuit, which
de-energizes the contactor.
The values of C and R determine how quick the capacitor C recharges
to 12V to energize the contactor again.
For example a 10 Ohm, 10W resistor will allow to re-close the
contactor after about 10 seconds with a 1 Farad capacitor.
NOTE that the capacitor must be really big, around 1 Farad or more
(that is 1,000,000 uF) otherwise it cannot deliver several amps
for a fraction of a second.
This is the reason that commercial economizer circuits will usually
either have a simple series resistor switched into the contactor
coil circuit (for example in the helper contact), or use a PWM
(Pulse Width Modulation) circuit to drop voltage.
I have a contactor that draws more than 10A at 12V, the PWM circuit
drops that to less than 2V, 2A so below 4W after the initial burst
of way over 100W, which quickly heats up the coil. With the PWM
circuit, only 1/3 Amp is drawn from the 12V battery after the
initial 10+ Amp burst.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Steve Condie
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 3:17 PM
To: EV List
Subject: Wiring a momentary voltage doubler for a contactor - diode?
Some time ago Lee Hart described how to wire a momentary voltage doubler to
enable the use of a 24V contactor in a 12 volt system. You use a DPDT
switch or relay to, in the "normal" position, charge up a capacitor, then
when the switch or relay is activated, the wiring is routed in series
through the capacitor and then to the contactor, giving a brief pulse of 24V
to close the contacts, then tapering back to 12V as the capacitor
discharges. 12V may not be enough to make the contacts on a 24V contactor
close when they're open, but it is enough to keep them closed afterwards..
I liked the circuit because of its simplicity, the built-in "coil
economizer" effect of having the voltage decline naturally shortly after
contact is made -- and the fact that I picked up several beefy 24V
contactors. So I built one, and it works. But the original archived post
says: "Once the capacitor discharges, a diode applies the 12v continuously
to hold it in." The one I built works fine without the diode, and I'm
having trouble figuring out why I need it and exactly where it goes. I'm
assuming that the capacitor allows the battery current to flow through it -
do I need a diode in parallel with it?. Is that a problem? Lee? Anyone?
---------------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
Sorry this is wrong they did the Smart Car.
On 1/31/07, james s <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Sorry Tony as far as I know the Maya-100 is and was the only one. I think
Electrovaya has now built a Mini Copper into an EV and is trying to get into
the European market. This is all the info I could get out of someone in the
Toronto EAA chapter that has dealings with Electrovaya.
James
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
On 1/30/07, Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> http://www.electrovaya.com/av/ZEV_video.mpg
>
> You guys might have seen this already, but it's the first time I've seen
> it, and it looks really cool! Anyone have any ideas as to the
> cost/availability of this car?
>
> - Tony
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And then of course there is always the typing error, like when someone
means to say 1.73 AH but types 1.73 WH (Dooh!)
> Umm, actually they /should/ be using WH/mile I.e. Watt Hours per mile.
> So yes that would imply a bit over 1.73 WH per mile. I say a bit over
> because voltage sag will reduce the voltage of your 144V pack below 144V.
>
> Also, just to add confusion. Some folks talk about WH/M and mean from the
> battery pack, while others mean from the outlet. Obviously from the
> outlet includes charging losses in both the charger and the battery.
>
>> I have a question where the answer confuses me.
>>
>> I hear about EV drivers talk about their energy usage in Watt per mile.
>> That a car would use about 250 watt/mile, something a little less
>> aerodynamic
>> like a Ranger would use about 300 watt/mile.
>>
>> So here's my confusion. If a vehicle uses 250 watt/mile and they have a
>> 144V pack, does that mean that they are using 1.73 Amps per mile?
>> Given that Power = Voltage * Current.
>>
>> Or is this time thing throwing me off?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Talk now to your Hotmail contacts with Windows Live Messenger.
>> http://get.live.com/messenger/overview
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "JS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 6:53 PM
Subject: Miles vs speed
> I counted 13 stop-lights on my twice a day commute. I usually make more
> than half of them on the green.
> My maximum speed is 35 mph, and I try to balance my speed vs. making the
> green.
>
> I can take the freeway and avoid all 13 signals, and travel at 60 mph.
>
> I have yet to figure out which is best, as I have no e-meter to help.
> Hi John;
Gees! A no brainer! Go on the damn Freeway and miss those stupid lights,
EVen if it takes a bit more amps? Probably coming out even, as it's the
stop/starting that eats up batteries.Not to mention that stop lights see you
coming in an EV and go red just in time<G>!After all, once you get ON the
Freeway, nobody sez you HAVE to go 60, let her wind down in the two freeway
miles and drop off at your exit , dignity intact.
My two watts worth.
Bob
> John in Sylmar, CA
> PV 1981 Jet Electrica formerly owned by the U.S. Navy
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.21/665 - Release Date: 2/2/07
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "JS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 6:18 PM
Subject: Re: Unvented Propane heaters
> xx xx wrote:
> > I have an unvented propane "fireplace" in my small home. This
> > is designed to vent into the living space and has a
> > low oxygen sensor. I also have a CO detector. I've
> > run this on and off for 3 years with neither the
> > oxygen sensor or the CO detector going off, and with
> > no physical side effects.
> > Good Thing!
>
> I use a 'Mr. Heater Portable Buddy' propane heater to heat my
> garage/workshop.
> It has a low oxygen cut-off. But I do not like the odor it leaves behind.
> Have you noticed this?
> Oh I sure have! I have one of those Wal*Mart space heaters, for the
garage. It runs off a gas grill tank, and does a nice job at taking the
chill off a garage. But you can't stay out there long. It STINKS,well, I
mean a sorts hard to describe version of air pollution, a heavy, stuffy sort
of smell. I don't care what they say. But it sure is better than the
Kero-Sun I used to have. They stink worse. City of New Haven, Ct has banned
them for home use, IF the fuel isn't just perfect, water clear kero-scene,
hidiously expensive, the good stuff is. Sheesh! EVen more than snotzy
bottled water! Pick up ALL the kero Suns at the Dump ya want! Another idea
gone bad! Firing up the woodstove an' a few fans to push the heat out to the
garage, works good. I can hear Jerry Dycus chuckling ,saying, if ya moved to
the Sunshine State THIS wouldn't be an issue.Course ya need A/C the OTHER 10
months of the year. Sigh!
My two BTU's worth
Bob..... in cooler CT 16 degreez now!
> John in Sylmar, CA
> " It never rains in So Cal"
>
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tony Hwang wrote:
On the connections from the inverter, there's three connections for a
5K pot, labeled:
1. REC
2. Lim. Power
3. Trottle (throttle I assume)
I know what 3. is, but what are 1. and 2.? Which one is the regen
control, and what is the other one for?
- Tony
Tony,
"REC" is regenerative braking control.
"Lim power" is what is says - it is set to limit the power
the motor will output at full throttle position - sort of gradual
control of turtle mode performance. For instance If you want to save
exhausted battery from reversing you can limit power
to, say 10kW which in turn will limit battery current.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Hartsell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 6:09 PM
Subject: Battery Question
> Let me first say that I am speaking of 6 volt lead acid batteries. Can
you
> mix batteries in a pack? By that I mean can you have some batteries that
> would be T-105's rating and some that would be T-145's rating. Let's say
> the pack voltage is 120 volts and you have 20 6 volt batteries in the
pack.
> Can you mix this pack and get away with it or would it cause you major
> problems.
> Hi Fred;
You can mix an' match, IF the batteries are warn out, lik the T 145 is
pooped down to about a good T 105 in power. Have done mix an' match just to
use up a pallot of crappy batteries. You will hafta moniter the voltages
closly, and not go for range as the stronger batteries will reverse the weak
ones, sending them to an early death!But for a just-to-get-it-going thing,
short trips, etc. But you WILL hafta equelize often, maybe boosting up the
weak ones with a separate charger, or, if you don't care ; crank up the Bad
Boy and cook them out!
Major problems? Well, yeah! A pain in the ass, to do just right.But
doable, IF you don't have much invested in the pack.$$$$$$
Seeya
Bob
>
>
> Thanks, Fred
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
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--- Begin Message ---
John O'Connor wrote:
> I was planning on splitting my 144 v pack (roughly) in half and have
> not had much luck finding a single pole (is that what it is called
> when there os only one conductor?) anderson connector (or the
> equivalent).
The single pole Anderson connectors are the 'Powerpole' series parts,
while the 2 pole connectors are the 'SB' series parts.
The SB connectors are probably more commonly available at your friendly
neighbourhood battery supplier, but the Powerpole would be more compact,
etc. Browse the 'Anderson Power Products' website and search up the
Powerpole parts if you want to go that route. You can buy them direct
from Anderson, but can usually find the smaller Powerpoles at least at
marine supply places. The marine places may carry the larger Powerpoles
as well, or check Waytek Wire online.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hi Peter,
>
> It was said before:
> The EV is not the right tool for everyone, there are certain
> circumstances under which it will not be the most optimal way
> of transport, so it may only fulfill the needs of 90% of the people.
>
> Now, in all honesty, which percentage of your trips is continuous
> high-speed freeway travel?
> Moreover, how often do you stop during such a "continuous" journey?
Ok, make it a 120 mile trip at 65 mph. That's not an unusual distance to
drive occasionally is it?
Assuming a battery pack with 10kw of useable energy, and an EV that only
needs 15kw to go 65mph.
Hmm, that needs about a 20hp ICE, assuming you are willing to have a
drained pack at the other end of the trip. If you need to drive back in
the same day, then you'll either need a monster charging port, or you'll
have to run the ICE for a couple hours to recharge the pack.
Of course if you hooked the same ICE up as a parallel setup, you'd arrive
with a full pack and wouldn't need to have the ICE running in the parking
lot for a couple hours. I wonder what that does to your efficiency and
emmisions?
>
> Every rest stop and certainly the first half hour of the trip can
> be electric-only, if you are able to quickly recharge, then every
> stop along the way becomes an opportunity to do another half hour
> electric-only.
> Even if the series hybrid is 10% less efficient than a gasoline
> engine directly coupled to the wheels, the fact that the first
> half hour is certainly electric-only will make the balance tip
> over towards the gas car after another 5 full hours continuous
> driving.
5 hours of drive? Oh, then you'll need a 25-30 hp ICE. And to end up
only 10% lower in efficiency, you'll need alternators and motors that
AVERAGE 95% efficient. I think AC Propulsion makes some this size and
efficiency, should only run about $20,000 each.
Then again, you need a larger motor to do the same job as the parallel
setup, so maybe you'd need even MORE efficeint e-motors and alternators to
only get 10% lower efficiency (what with needing the larger ICE as well as
the dual conversion losses)
For those who are getting ready to argue the HP numbers, remember that
ICEs are rated for MAXIMUM hp, not continuous. ALso that peak efficiency
in an ICE happens at power levels considerably below maximum HP. So I
might have choosen numbers that are a bit optimistic, you might need
BIGGER ICEs then I used.
Most of the generators I've seen use 12-13hp ICEs for 5KW output, not 10
hp like I was assuming in my examples.
And, of course, what happends when you get to a long upgrade? You either
need enough EXTRA power to handle the long hill, or you go up it really
slow, or you pull over and recharge.
Personally, I'd prefer to have the extra power available.
>
> I don't know about you, but I cannot manage 5 hours without a
> single stop - restroom breaks, food breaks, refresher naps,
> I usually stop every 2 to 3 hours. So I will never be able
>>in practice< to make a gas car exceed the mileage of a series
> hybrid which has slightly worse efficiency.
> Now factor in the fact that you hardly ever go on a road trip
> like that, compared to the many around-town and commute trips,
> plus the fact that most road trips hit a slower traffic situation
> like crossing a town and standing still in front of traffic lights
> then you see why I am not concerned about the theoretical efficiency
> loss in a series hybrid and see this as the last and currently best
> stop for most people, before switching to full EVs when electricity
> storage has improved to a point of a full recharge in 5 minutes and
> a continuous 3 hours freeway range from a single recharge.
> I think this will be possible in prototypes on the road before the
> end of this decade, so will see some change during the pivotal
> years around 2010.
>
> Time will tell.
>
> (Note that a series hybrid upgrade to full EV only means not
> fueling the genset any more. That will be automatic for anyone
> who owns a series hybrid and finds themselves only making short
> trips, as data suggestes, while plugging in everywhere)
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reason that I bought my Prius was that is was the best car,
at least 1/2 Electric, for the purpose: transport a family,
if necessary over large distance.
Getting almost 50 mpg was certainly a boon.
Once I needed a second vehicle, an EV was the first choice.
Note that EV mode switch is only a suggestion to the Prius
control system to try to switch to EV-only mode if several
parameters are allowing it to.
If you need more power than EV mode can deliver (indicated by
the accelerator position) then the engine is started anyway.
Above 42 mph the engine needs to rotate to avoid overspeeding
one motor, this has to do with the limitations of the "Power
Split Device" that permanently connects the engine, both
motors and the wheel together. With the engine at zero rpm,
the smaller motor makes a lot of rpm for wheel rotations,
at 42 mph it reaches redline.
The engine has fuel injectors, so when the power is not
needed, but the engine needs to rotate, for example when
doing more than 42mph on a downhill, then the control system
will not fire the injectors and the engine does not use any
gasoline. If I am not mistaken the valves are even closed,
so the cylinders are just bouncing up and down without any
air pumped through the engine, which increases efficiency.
At that moment the car is entirely propelled (or slowed)
by its electric motors and this mode is coined the expression
"Warp stealth" with normal "Stealt" being the EV-only mode
under 42 mph.
Now, for the series hybrid - that would combine the good sides
of both cars in one.
Where the Prius is still 100% gasoline-powered, the series
hybrid can be 100% electric powered when plugged in and during
trips shorter than 40 miles (almost every single one).
It also has the quick refuel and "unlimited" range that we have
come to appreciate of our gas-cars. I hope that part will be
the next nut to crack, once the series hybrids are on the market.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Frank John
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 7:16 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
I should point out that "foreign" (European and Japanese from what I
understand) versions of the Prius can be had with an "EV Only" switch.
Prius forums discuss where this can be retrofitted to US versions of the
car. This apparently locks-out ICE operation; I don't know if the 42 mph
limit still applies or not with this feature. Not sure why US versions
don't have this option...
Even though the ICE runs at speeds >41 mph the mileage display can still
claim 99 mpg if not under load. Something about needing to lubricate the
power splitter?? FWIW, our '06 Prius can show this condition even at 70+
mph on the interstate. The ICE may still be running but the power seems to
be coming from battery.
----- Original Message ----
From: Kenneth Dove <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Friday, February 2, 2007 11:58:28 PM
Subject: Re: Series hybrids (was Re: EV digest 6372)
Personally, I do not want to argue the merits and deficiencies of
parallel and series hybrid configurations.
I do not want a parallel hybrid and would never buy one.
I do not want a 2001 Prius that I have to "pulse" or keep under 42 mph
or over 42 mph or drive in reverse.
What I do want is a series hybrid that can be driven like the Volt for
the first 40 miles in pure EV mode. I would also love to have the EV 1
series hybrid concept that never made it to production.
I also would like a pure electric vehicle with a 200 mile range and all
the accouterments of today's luxury vehicle.
Until I can buy something I want, I guess I have to stick with what I
have and at least console myself with my 60 mpg Suzuki Scooter!
I just cannot see the attraction to a parallel hybrid vehicle where the
driver has no control over the ICE.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Check the archives, I've quoted sources numerous times in the past. I
> don't currently have acess to my old computer so I don't have them handy,
> and I don't feel like looking them up again (try google).
>
> For a start you can check metric mind for the efficeincy curves of their
> AC motor system, or check EVparts for the efficiency of series motors.
> The AC setup actually peaks at over 90%, but averages somewhat less. THe
> series wound motors peak at around 85-96% but average less.
>
> Motors and generators are the same thing, so the better
> alternators/generators will have the same basic efficiency as the above
> motors. Typical commercial alternators are typically somewhat less
> efficient, again check the archives or google it.
>
> It's a bit unusual for someone to be argueing that 15% is too little for
> drive train looses, in the past I've had to post sources because most
> folks feel it's less than that. Gears can be extreemly efficient, over
> 99% in some cases. Normal automotive transmission have extra, unused,
> gears spinning in oil, and synchros which lowers the efficiency somewhat
> as well as the hypoid drive gears in rear wheel drive setups that add a
> couple extra % of loss. This is why they are only 85-90% efficeint with
> FWD typically being around 90% and RWD around 85%. Automatic
> transmissions typically add another 5% or so.
>
> Again check the archives for sources, I'm tired of posting the same info
> every year.
>
>
>> Peter, perhaps the general figures you provide for efficiency and
>> emissions are generally accepted.
>> * total losses from engine to wheels are somewhere around 10-15% for a
>> standard transmission.
>> * single ratio transmission losses are around 5-10% between the motor
>> and the wheels
>> * typical motors and (good) alternators run at around 80-85% efficient
>> * genset small motors pollute hundreds of times more than modern
>> automotive ICEs
>> I don't know, I'm still on the steep part of the learning curve -- it
>> would help if you could share your sources.
>>
>> When you quote numbers without citing sources, and then ask to be proven
>> wrong *WITH* cited sources, your point rings hollow...
>>
>>> I believe that you are the one who is mistaken... <snip>
>>> ...If you can cite some reliable, documented evidence to the
>>> contrary, I'd love to see it.
>>>
>> It is not generally necessary to prove ideas false. What is required is
>> to demonstrate that they are true. Anyone who argues for an idea must be
>> prepared to support it. No idea is valid -- or invalid -- just because
>> it can't be disproved.
>>
>> Any argument that amounts to the statement "prove me wrong" is
>> inherently bogus...
>> ...and easy to discount.
>>
>> Randii
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
quick reminder for the next Sydney branch AEVA meeting:
Date: Tuesday, 6th February
Time: 7:30PM (for 8:00PM start)
Location: Norwest McDonald's
Norwest Business Park
6 Celebration Drive, BELLA VISTA
(Off Old Windsor Rd)
See http://sydneyaeva.googlepages.com/ for more information.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Randy Burleson kirjoitti 3.2.2007 kello 20.46:
That last column, MJ/km -- is that efficiency or energy required to
make
that km?
Randii
It´s energy.
Osmo
Quoted and re-aligned for enhance readability...
Here are some figures from a book "Electric vehicle technology" by
James
Larmine & John Lowry (2003). (The data is originally from Hoogers
(ed.)
(2003) Fuel Cell Technology Handbook):
NOx(g/km) Sox CO PM CO2 Energy
(MJ/km)
Gasoline ICE 0.26 0.2 2.3 0.01 209 3.16
Diesel ICE 0.57 0.13 0.65 0.05 154 2.36
CNG ICE 0.1 0.01 0.05 <0.0001 158 2.74
Battery car UK 0.54 0.74 0.09 0.05 104 1.98
Battery car CCGT 0.17 0.06 0.08 0.0001 88.1 1.71
The first battery car uses current UK electricity mix, the second one
electricity from state-of-the-art combined cycle gas turbine (CCGT)
generators supplied with natural gas.
The CNG ICE was assumed to have the same energy use as the gasoline
vehicle,
but with 10 % better efficiency, i.e. 16.5 %.
These are well-to-wheel figures.
terveisin,
Osmo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The early solectria cars used a belt drive system and it has pulleys that
are cogged and the belt is a polychain belt.The belts and pulleys are
available at www.mibelting.com and you can call them with your specs and
shaft sizes and they are real helpful.
Mike young-- solectria force cars
----- Original Message -----
From: "xx xx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: Speaking of Hybrids
A lot of custom choppers use very wide toothed belts
to handle the torque. Might work for you.
John
--- Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think a good way to do a plug-in hybrid is to take
a FWD car, and add
an electric motor to drive the rear wheels.
Then you can use the electric motor around town, and
use the gas motor
on the freeway.
I've been building just such a car, I've converted
one rear wheel into a
driven wheel powered by an electric motor.
However, I'm having trouble and could use some
suggestions. I
originally used a 1" wide belt drive to power the
wheel, but the belt would
slip when enough torque was applied to move the car.
So I've changed it to use a chain drive. The
problem now is the chain
makes a huge amount of noise! more noise than ICE
does.
Has anyone else done a chain or belt drive setup?
Are there chain
drives that are not so noisy? Or belts that can
handle a lot of torque.
A 3" wide belt?
I'm considering trying the snowmobile CVT setup, but
its a little
expensive for this project.
Thanks,
Jack
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