EV Digest 6382
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: LPG/LNG/CNG, diesel, enviromnent.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: The Series Hybrid Debate, MORE!
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Disconnects. Was: Battery Washing
by Rich Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Another battery post protective method
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Speaking of Hybrids -rear wheel drive
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: The Series Hybrid Debate, MORE!
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Another battery post protective method
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) SOT Indoor pollution Re: EV digest 6372
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Wiring a momentary voltage doubler for a contactor - diode?
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Disconnects. Was: Battery Washing
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Wiring a momentary voltage doubler for a contactor - diode?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery Question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: The Series Hybrid Debate, MORE!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Wiring a momentary voltage doubler for a contactor - diode?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Jim Husted or other motor Guru's..
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Disconnects. Was: Battery Washing
by "John O'Connor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Fuses and Breakers
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Disconnects. Was: Battery Washing
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Zivan NG3 on eBay
by Jake Oshins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: EV digest 6380
by "Mark Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: BBS?
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Randii,
Joule is a WattSecond, so a MegaJoule (MJ) is 1000kWsecond or
about 0.278 kWh.
Since a mile is 1.609 km, the MJ/km is the equivalent of
0.447 kWh/mi
So the battery car CCGT has 1.71 x 0.447 = 0.764 kWh/mi
when calculated starting from the raw fuel, so including the
electricity production efficiency.
Since Osmo is not from the US, he uses the worldwide standard
Metric system units. (Many US scientists also standardize their
reporting in Metric units to allow easier peer review btw)
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Osmo S.
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 10:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: LPG/LNG/CNG, diesel, enviromnent.
> Randy Burleson kirjoitti 3.2.2007 kello 20.46:
> That last column, MJ/km -- is that efficiency or energy required to
> make
> that km?
>
> Randii
It´s energy.
Osmo
> Quoted and re-aligned for enhance readability...
>> Here are some figures from a book "Electric vehicle technology" by
> James
>> Larmine & John Lowry (2003). (The data is originally from Hoogers
> (ed.)
>> (2003) Fuel Cell Technology Handbook):
>>
>> NOx(g/km) Sox CO PM CO2 Energy
> (MJ/km)
>> Gasoline ICE 0.26 0.2 2.3 0.01 209 3.16
>> Diesel ICE 0.57 0.13 0.65 0.05 154 2.36
>> CNG ICE 0.1 0.01 0.05 <0.0001 158 2.74
>> Battery car UK 0.54 0.74 0.09 0.05 104 1.98
>> Battery car CCGT 0.17 0.06 0.08 0.0001 88.1 1.71
>>
>> The first battery car uses current UK electricity mix, the second one
>> electricity from state-of-the-art combined cycle gas turbine (CCGT)
>> generators supplied with natural gas.
>>
>> The CNG ICE was assumed to have the same energy use as the gasoline
> vehicle,
>> but with 10 % better efficiency, i.e. 16.5 %.
>>
>> These are well-to-wheel figures.
>>
>> terveisin,
>> Osmo
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is true. The lowest I've ever heard about is 41 mpUSg average that Road &
Track averaged for their long-term test car. We consistently get 50's in
winter and 60 in the summer. Our driving is mostly rural at lower speeds but
I've obtained 50 mpg on the highway at 70+ mph in summer weather for hours on
end. Hooray for low Cd!
----- Original Message ----
From: xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 5:43:00 PM
Subject: Re: The Series Hybrid Debate, MORE!
> All this hybrid, smybrid stuff? Ah Poo! Don't
> ya consider the present
> crop of hybrids (that NEVER do the claims of
> miliage, 40 or so, on a Prius,
> less when it's cold!)They are "Training Wheels" into
> REAL Electric cars,
> anyhow.
Actually if you go to any of the Prius forums you'll
see many people doing much better than that, 50-70 mpg
depending.
John
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack, how well are the sprockets aligned? Also if you use an o-ring chain it
should be a bit quieter.
----- Original Message ----
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 8:37:57 PM
Subject: Speaking of Hybrids
I think a good way to do a plug-in hybrid is to take a FWD car, and add
an electric motor to drive the rear wheels.
Then you can use the electric motor around town, and use the gas motor
on the freeway.
I've been building just such a car, I've converted one rear wheel into a
driven wheel powered by an electric motor.
However, I'm having trouble and could use some suggestions. I
originally used a 1" wide belt drive to power the wheel, but the belt would
slip when enough torque was applied to move the car.
So I've changed it to use a chain drive. The problem now is the chain
makes a huge amount of noise! more noise than ICE does.
Has anyone else done a chain or belt drive setup? Are there chain
drives that are not so noisy? Or belts that can handle a lot of torque.
A 3" wide belt?
I'm considering trying the snowmobile CVT setup, but its a little
expensive for this project.
Thanks,
Jack
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 2007-02-03 at 20:06 -0500, John O'Connor wrote:
> I was planning on splitting my 144 v pack (roughly) in half and have
> not had much luck finding a single pole (is that what it is called
> when there os only one conductor?) anderson connector (or the
> equivalent).
Sometimes you can take those big Anderson connectors and cut them down
the middle with a hacksaw and use each side separately.
Rich
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One day I went to my auto parts store, and notice they had all lead type
marine terminals that was coated RED for the positive battery clamps and
BLACK for the negative battery clamps. It must be some type of epoxy
coating, so I try coating one of my battery clamps with RUST-OLEUM
Appliance Epoxy paint.
I prepare several of my plated brass battery clamps by soaking in epoxy
thinner to clean it. Then I rolled up a short length of paper towel and
insert it into the battery post contact area, I did not want to coat. I
then spray about 3 coats that must be done only minutes apart.
The curing time is about 2 weeks or more, less if bake, so I let it dried in
the hot sun light. I still waited 2 weeks, before I tested one of the
battery clamps my submersion it into to 1.375 SG battery acid. The epoxy
paint pitted in some areas, so I bake it in a toaster oven waited over a
month to test another battery clamp. This time the epoxy paint held up.
I am not going to applied this protective method to the existing batteries I
have now. I will wait until I get new batteries, where I will paint the
base of the post and the offset link with this epoxy paint.
With all this talk of battery post and clamp protective, I just try this
battery acid test again, and it did not effect the epoxy coated clamp at
all.
Before installing on the battery clamps, I will install a nylon O-ring on
the bottom of the battery clamp, so when installing the clamp, it will press
this O-ring into the base of the post for a tight seal.
Then we will see what happens, if this method stands up by the year 2022,
which will be about 10 years of usage on a new set of batteries that I will
be getting in Jan 4 2012.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
try using a motorcycle belt drive from something like
a harley...they can take lots of torque and are
quiet...I also am thinking about a motor driven wheel
hook up that uses a planetary gear system...has anyone
done this...where do you get a planetary gear setup???
--- Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jack, how well are the sprockets aligned? Also if
> you use an o-ring chain it should be a bit quieter.
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2007 8:37:57 PM
> Subject: Speaking of Hybrids
>
> I think a good way to do a plug-in hybrid is to take
> a FWD car, and add
> an electric motor to drive the rear wheels.
> Then you can use the electric motor around town, and
> use the gas motor
> on the freeway.
>
> I've been building just such a car, I've converted
> one rear wheel into a
> driven wheel powered by an electric motor.
> However, I'm having trouble and could use some
> suggestions. I
> originally used a 1" wide belt drive to power the
> wheel, but the belt would
> slip when enough torque was applied to move the car.
>
> So I've changed it to use a chain drive. The
> problem now is the chain
> makes a huge amount of noise! more noise than ICE
> does.
> Has anyone else done a chain or belt drive setup?
> Are there chain
> drives that are not so noisy? Or belts that can
> handle a lot of torque.
> A 3" wide belt?
> I'm considering trying the snowmobile CVT setup, but
> its a little
> expensive for this project.
>
> Thanks,
> Jack
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail
> beta.
> http://new.mail.yahoo.com
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone converted a Prius to an all electric BEV?
You would think that the factory power steering, power brakes, heater, etc
would be already setup to run on electric power. And that low Cd body would
be great for efficiency. Could you keep the same electric motor and its
drivetrain?
On the downside, it doesn't look like much room for batteries so you might
have to stack them behind the rear seat.
There are probably early models available that are nearing the point of
needing their batteries replaced and/or their gas motors overhauled.
I have seen pictures of a nice Impact conversion, but (so far) no Prius.
Why is that?
Bruce
___________________________________________________________________
Frank John wrote:
> Hooray for low Cd!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i dont know bout the rest of em but i know ill be knawwin at the bit waitin
to find out he he mike y
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 10:28 AM
Subject: Another battery post protective method
One day I went to my auto parts store, and notice they had all lead type
marine terminals that was coated RED for the positive battery clamps and
BLACK for the negative battery clamps. It must be some type of epoxy
coating, so I try coating one of my battery clamps with RUST-OLEUM
Appliance Epoxy paint.
I prepare several of my plated brass battery clamps by soaking in epoxy
thinner to clean it. Then I rolled up a short length of paper towel and
insert it into the battery post contact area, I did not want to coat. I
then spray about 3 coats that must be done only minutes apart.
The curing time is about 2 weeks or more, less if bake, so I let it dried
in the hot sun light. I still waited 2 weeks, before I tested one of the
battery clamps my submersion it into to 1.375 SG battery acid. The epoxy
paint pitted in some areas, so I bake it in a toaster oven waited over a
month to test another battery clamp. This time the epoxy paint held up.
I am not going to applied this protective method to the existing batteries
I have now. I will wait until I get new batteries, where I will paint the
base of the post and the offset link with this epoxy paint.
With all this talk of battery post and clamp protective, I just try this
battery acid test again, and it did not effect the epoxy coated clamp at
all.
Before installing on the battery clamps, I will install a nylon O-ring on
the bottom of the battery clamp, so when installing the clamp, it will
press this O-ring into the base of the post for a tight seal.
Then we will see what happens, if this method stands up by the year 2022,
which will be about 10 years of usage on a new set of batteries that I
will be getting in Jan 4 2012.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And my mom uses a portable Kerosene heater (Paraffin for our British members)
Obviously this vents into the house (It's not connected to anything) and
I'm pretty sure that Kerosene doesn't burn much cleaner than gasoline, in
fact:
"In addition to carbon monoxide, kerosene heaters can emit such pollutants
as carbon dioxide, nitrogen dioxide and sulphur dioxide."
http://www.iii.org/media/publications/brochures/kerosene/
"Burning kerosene consumes oxygen and produces carbon dioxide, sulfur
dioxide, nitrogen dioxide, carbon monoxide and other gases."
http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d000801-d000900/d000884/d000884.html
So I'd think that ancedotal evidence that you haven't died (or set off a
CO detector, neither has my mom) from burning Propane, doesn't prove that
it doesn't pollute. In fact:
"Typical indoor CO levels ranged from 2-21 parts per million (ppm) for
homes with kerosene heaters and 2-40 ppm for homes with propane
heaters...The indoor pollutant levels caused by unvented kerosene and
propane space heaters were remarkably similar in the homes studied."
http://www.mhrahome.org/pages/fuelswitch.htm
For those who are thinking we've drifted of from EVs, well yes sort of,
but the discussion is about appropriate fuels for plug in Hybrids.
The point I was originally making is the Propane and CNG can be cleaner
than Gasoline, when PROPERLY SETUP, but they are NOT emission free, even
when burning them in small quantities to heat your home.
And it is small quantites. I used LPG for ALL of the heating in my
current home(except the stove), consumption goes WAY up during the winter
time, between the begining of Novemeber and the end of January I averaged
1.3 gallons per day. That's enough to run a typical car at highway speeds
for about 25 minutes.
> I feel I should chime in on this. I have an
> unvented propane "fireplace" in my small home. This
> is designed to vent into the living space and has a
> low oxygen sensor. I also have a CO detector. I've
> run this on and off for 3 years with neither the
> oxygen sensor or the CO detector going off, and with
> no physical side effects. There is no way I'd sit
> here with a gasoline vehicle running in my house.
> Running one even for a short time in the shop can be
> unpleasant.
>
>
> John
>
> --- Peter Gabrielsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>> Large space heater in a hole in the floor, I live in
>> a small craftsman
>> house that's a hundred years old, I suspect the
>> heater is too, It has
>> been recently inspected. I can look down through the
>> grating and see
>> the open flames so that's why I presume it's venting
>> into the house.
>> The oven definitly is not venting outside, which is
>> a pain in the
>> California summer heat.
>>
>> I've seen many heaters like this around here and I
>> do have a CO detector.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a PS3 game guru.
> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo!
> Games.
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>
--
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legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used the circuit you describe (less diodes) at first, but it has the problem
that you need yet another switch to turn it off. I changed to this circuit
instead (ASCII art warning!!):
o------ +
/ U
+ / cont.
- - - - S1 o coil
| \ U
12V \ U
| o+ U
| / | U
| / --- U
- - - - S2 o cap U
gnd --- U
\ | U
\ | U
o---------
Like I said, it works. Switch "up" and the contactor closes, down and it
opens. And it turns on and off with just the one DPDT switch. There's no
apparent lag time - it will turn off and on quickly and repeatedly. Also, I
tried different capacitors to see how much I needed. 12V alone would not close
the contactor. A few hundred uF didn't do it; With a 3300 uF capacitor it
does. I'm having a hard time seeing where I would get reverse polarity without
a diode; as you know, I'm unschooled in electronics..
The contactors come with something wired across the coil contacts - I can't see
what it is but I assume its a surge suppressor of some sort.
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Steve,
I don't recall the circuit but in general it's bad for a
capacitor (this is no doubt an electrolytic capacitor or Elco)
to be charged in the opposite direction. About as bad as cell
reversal in a battery - it quickly destroys the component.
Best way to protect from this is to use a combination of two
diodes (though Lee may have a way to use only one ;-)
1. diode D1 from the capacitor plus to the contactor
2. diode D2 bypassing both capacitor and first diode to supply 12V directly.
The first diode will prevent that the capacitor is discharged below zero.
If the first diode is omitted and only the second diode present across
the capacitor then it is discharged to the *negative* voltage of the
forward drop of the second diode.
This is likely below 1V and not very harmful for an Elco,
though in the long run it may not really like it.
Since the EV is not run very often, relatively speaken, less
than 3% of the time my EV is run, the other 97% it is "off"
or recharging.
When the contactor is not used during recharging the short time
it is used with a negative voltage will likely not hurt the Elco.
It is easy to apply two diodes though, so why take the chance?
+-----------+----+
_|_ _|_ |
^ ^ | contactor coil
/_\ D2 D1 /_\ +-UUUU-+
| _____ | |
o--++-|_____|--+ |
+ | R | |
12v | --- |
| --- |
| | C |
| o o
| \ S1 \ S2
+--------o \o o \o
| |
GND | |
o-----------------+------+
Contactor coil is energized with 24V when S1 and S2 contacts are
closed simultaneously.
It is even possible to use a "Start" double-pole push-button to
close S1 and S2 and have a helper-contact on the contactor closing
in parallel to S2 to keep it energized. A second break-contact
"Stop" push-button can break the helper-contact circuit, which
de-energizes the contactor.
The values of C and R determine how quick the capacitor C recharges
to 12V to energize the contactor again.
For example a 10 Ohm, 10W resistor will allow to re-close the
contactor after about 10 seconds with a 1 Farad capacitor.
NOTE that the capacitor must be really big, around 1 Farad or more
(that is 1,000,000 uF) otherwise it cannot deliver several amps
for a fraction of a second.
This is the reason that commercial economizer circuits will usually
either have a simple series resistor switched into the contactor
coil circuit (for example in the helper contact), or use a PWM
(Pulse Width Modulation) circuit to drop voltage.
I have a contactor that draws more than 10A at 12V, the PWM circuit
drops that to less than 2V, 2A so below 4W after the initial burst
of way over 100W, which quickly heats up the coil. With the PWM
circuit, only 1/3 Amp is drawn from the 12V battery after the
initial 10+ Amp burst.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Steve Condie
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 3:17 PM
To: EV List
Subject: Wiring a momentary voltage doubler for a contactor - diode?
Some time ago Lee Hart described how to wire a momentary voltage doubler to
enable the use of a 24V contactor in a 12 volt system. You use a DPDT
switch or relay to, in the "normal" position, charge up a capacitor, then
when the switch or relay is activated, the wiring is routed in series
through the capacitor and then to the contactor, giving a brief pulse of 24V
to close the contacts, then tapering back to 12V as the capacitor
discharges. 12V may not be enough to make the contacts on a 24V contactor
close when they're open, but it is enough to keep them closed afterwards..
I liked the circuit because of its simplicity, the built-in "coil
economizer" effect of having the voltage decline naturally shortly after
contact is made -- and the fact that I picked up several beefy 24V
contactors. So I built one, and it works. But the original archived post
says: "Once the capacitor discharges, a diode applies the 12v continuously
to hold it in." The one I built works fine without the diode, and I'm
having trouble figuring out why I need it and exactly where it goes. I'm
assuming that the capacitor allows the battery current to flow through it -
do I need a diode in parallel with it?. Is that a problem? Lee? Anyone?
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John O'Connor wrote:
I was planning on splitting my 144 v pack (roughly) in half and have
not had much luck finding a single pole Anderson connector.
The single-pole Andersons are called Power Pole connectors. They look
exactly like the 2-pole Andersons, but the plastic body is square, holds
1 pin, and has slots on the sides so they stack together vertically and
horizontally to make any number of pins you want. They come in sizes for
continuous currents of 15, 30, 45, 75, 120, and 180 amps, for #20 to 1/0
wire.
Is there any reason not to use one of the standard two conductor
anderson connector housing with one conductor?
No, that's fine too. You could even slice it in half, and use the two
halves as your mating connector. Andersons are hermaphroditic; there is
no male and female, and any two halves plug together.
Other than the automatic nature of a circuit breaker, are there
any advantages or disadvantages to using a circuit breaker rather
than an anderson (or like type) connecter in this application?
Circuit breakers are bigger and cost more. But they are easier to switch
on/off than plugging/unplugging a connector. Of course, a circuit
breaker will turn off automatically if there is an overcurrent condition.
PS: Automotive blade fuses fit the smaller Anderson connectors; you can
use the Andersons as a fuse socket.
On a related note, with my current battery layout, this disconnect would
be between batteries 13 and 14 in my 24 battery series (rather than 12
and 13 that would split into 2 72 volt packs), is there any reason I
should rework my layout so the disconnect is between 12 and 13?
No; I'd say that's close enough. Remember that 72v still represents a
shock hazard, though less than 144v.
As an aside, I also have the fusaeble links that electro auto
recommends and sells connecting batteries 6 and 7 and 18 and 19.
Good! Can you get them in/out easily?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
I don't recall the circuit...
But you remembered it perfectly! Here it is again, cleaned up a little.
As always, view this with a fixed-width font or you'll see cartoon swearing.
+-------------+------+----+
_|_ _|_ | |
D2 /_\ D1 /_\ < |
| | R2 < |_
| _____ | < _| contactor
+12v o-+-+--|_____|--+ _|_ _| coil
| R1 | D3 /_\ _|
| + --- |____|
| C1 --- |
| - | |
| o o
| \ S1 \ S2
+---------o \o o \o
on | | off
| |
GND o-------------------+------+
I agree with your additions of D2, D3, and R2 as well. They are matters
of finesse that improve operation and reliability.
Electrolytic capacitors can usually stand -0.6v without damage. A small
DC current will flow, which un-forms them a little, making their
capacitance and voltage rating go down and ESR go up. But they re-form
when the correct polarity is applied; so this does no damage if the
capacitor spends almost all of its time positive.
Without D2, you could have a situation where the only time C1 has a
positive voltage is for the 1 second between when you turned on the key
and when you switched S1 "on" to pull in the contactor.
D3 and R2 are a good idea, to relieve the voltage spike stress on switch S2.
It is even possible to use a "Start" double-pole push-button to
close S1 and S2 and have a helper-contact on the contactor closing
in parallel to S2 to keep it energized. A second break-contact
"Stop" push-button can break the helper-contact circuit, which
de-energizes the contactor.
That's a clever addition. Might be desirable for some applications.
The values of C1 and R1 determine how quick the capacitor C1
recharges to 12V to energize the contactor again.
For example a 10 Ohm, 10W resistor will allow to re-close the
contactor after about 10 seconds with a 1 Farad capacitor.
NOTE that the capacitor must be really big, around 1 Farad or more
(that is 1,000,000 uF) otherwise it cannot deliver several amps
for a fraction of a second.
It's not *that* big! A big contactor like the Albright SW200 has a 24v
32 ohm coil, and takes 40msec to pull in. T = RC, so the minimum value
of C = T/R = 0.04sec / 32ohms = 0.00125 farads or 1250 microfarads. A
2000uF capacitor is more than enough.
This is the reason that commercial economizer circuits will usually
either have a simple series resistor switched into the contactor
coil circuit (for example in the helper contact), or use a PWM
(Pulse Width Modulation) circuit to drop voltage.
Mostly, they do this because it's cheaper!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Fred Hartsell"
...6 volt lead acid batteries. Can you mix batteries in a pack?
Yes, as long as you are aware of the problems, and are prepared to deal
with them.
They will charge and discharge at different rates, so in general they
will not be at the same states of charge. This complicates charging --
if you blindly charge them all in series, you will undercharge some and
overcharge others, leading to failures.
While driving, you can't easily tell which one will reach "dead" first.
So you are likely to keep driving when the first battery goes dead, and
destroy it.
So, to make this work, you have to add instrumentation so you know the
voltage of each battery. On charge, the crudest method is to charge each
type of battery individually (all the T-105's on one charger, all the
T-145's on another). Fancier methods include battery shunt regulators,
or something like my Battery Balancer.
On discharge, the cheapest monitor is my Batt-Bridge "idiot" light. It
doesn't tell you which battery went dead; it just tells you that *some*
battery just went dead, and so warns you to stop driving. Fancier setups
include individual battery monitors that scan all the batteries and
display their voltages for you.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
All this hybrid, schmybrid stuff? Ah Poo! ... Consider the
present crop of hybrids (that NEVER do the claims of mileage,
40 or so, on a Prius, less when it's cold!) as "Training
Wheels" into REAL Electric cars!
Bob is pulling your leg. :-) He *has* a Prius, and knows they can get
more than the EPA claimed mileage if driven carefully. And, they'll get
worse than the EPA mileage if driven casually, or in cold weather.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Condie wrote:
I used the circuit you describe (less diodes) at first, but it has the problem
that you need yet another switch to turn it off. I changed to this circuit
instead (ASCII art warning!!):
o------ +
/ U
+ / cont.
- - - - S1 o coil
| \ U
12V \ U
| o+ U
| / | U
| / --- U
- - - - S2 o cap U
gnd --- U
\ | U
\ | U
o---------
Sure; that will work, too. Just needs a more complicated switch.
You get reverse voltage on the capacitor after it has discharged but is
still in series with the 12v powering the coil.
This circuit also tries to charge the capacitor "instantly" when the
switch is down. This is pretty hard on the switch's contacts.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if changing the brush timing a bit would help.
Just a thought.
Bill D.
At 05:07 PM 2/3/2007, you wrote:
Jim:
After 1000 KM on my big brawny 700 watt Yonkang Crown scoot, I
opened up the hubmotor:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/img/822/822e.jpg
and found that my PC-7 magnet repair was holding fine. I found very
light accumulations of comm dust. However, there is an odd wear pattern
on the comm:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/img/822/822c.jpg
Any opinions?
Also it looks like I snagged the rotor laminations at some point
when pulling the stator:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/img/822/822f.jpg
My plan is to put a drop of superglue in the laminations, and
squeeze them back together. Does this make sense?
Thanks all...
Mark
_________________________________________________________________
Get in the mood for Valentine's Day. View photos, recipes and more
on your Live.com page.
http://www.live.com/?addTemplate=ValentinesDay&ocid=T001MSN30A0701
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to Lee and the others that responded.
On Feb 4, 2007, at 12:09 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
John O'Connor wrote:
I was planning on splitting my 144 v pack (roughly) in half and have
not had much luck finding a single pole Anderson connector.
The single-pole Andersons are called Power Pole connectors. They
look exactly like the 2-pole Andersons, but the plastic body is
square, holds 1 pin, and has slots on the sides so they stack
together vertically and horizontally to make any number of pins you
want. They come in sizes for continuous currents of 15, 30, 45, 75,
120, and 180 amps, for #20 to 1/0 wire.
Is there any reason not to use one of the standard two conductor
anderson connector housing with one conductor?
No, that's fine too. You could even slice it in half, and use the
two halves as your mating connector. Andersons are hermaphroditic;
there is no male and female, and any two halves plug together.
Other than the automatic nature of a circuit breaker, are there
any advantages or disadvantages to using a circuit breaker rather
than an anderson (or like type) connecter in this application?
Circuit breakers are bigger and cost more. But they are easier to
switch on/off than plugging/unplugging a connector. Of course, a
circuit breaker will turn off automatically if there is an
overcurrent condition.
Well I may starting to develop some intuition about this stuff
because I thought this would be the answer. In the short run i'll
probably use a plug type connector an keep on the lookout for a breaker.
PS: Automotive blade fuses fit the smaller Anderson connectors; you
can use the Andersons as a fuse socket.
On a related note, with my current battery layout, this disconnect
would be between batteries 13 and 14 in my 24 battery series
(rather than 12 and 13 that would split into 2 72 volt packs), is
there any reason I should rework my layout so the disconnect is
between 12 and 13?
No; I'd say that's close enough. Remember that 72v still represents
a shock hazard, though less than 144v.
As an aside, I also have the fusible links that electro auto
recommends and sells connecting batteries 6 and 7 and 18 and 19.
Good! Can you get them in/out easily?
Not really, in terms of disconnecting, they are not different than
any of my other battery interconnects and in terms of location they
will not be that easy to get to. I had planned on 3 disconnect
locations for regular use. An anderson connector that connects the
traction most positive and most negative to my "component board", the
main circuit breaker on my component board in the motor compartment
(rigged to a pull cable in the passenger compartment somehow), and
then something to split the pack in half (which I miscalculated on
and is now roughly in half).
I was under the impression the fusible links were additional safety
fuses not intended to be regular disconnect points. If I want to
split my pack into quarters (roughly) I will have to get out the
wrenches and remove battery interconnect cables.
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I noticed on my last trip to Boeing Surplus that they have a bunch of
big breakers and fuses for sale.
The fuses seem to range from 100A up to about 400A. (A couple I
checked were 600VDC)
Breakers were mostly 3 phase AC in the 207 to 400 VAC range, and 50 to 200A.
Think these would be useful? I could zip down to the place and buy a
bunch. (I think $5 to $10 each)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John O'Connor wrote:
I was under the impression the fusible links were additional safety
fuses not intended to be regular disconnect points. If I want to split
my pack into quarters (roughly) I will have to get out the wrenches and
remove battery interconnect cables.
I was just asking. I used wingnuts on my fusible links in the battery
box. It makes it simpler to remove. The fusible links are slotted at the
ends, so by just loosening the wingnut, the link can be removed. Of
course, you're putting your hand on them, but by that time I've already
pulled the Andersons.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just listed my Zivan NG3 on eBay. It works as new. I'm selling only
because I upgraded to a PFC.
It's currently configured for 156V of AGMs. The charging algorithm is
that of the Zivan "V10" chip, which pulses after 14.4V per 12V battery,
regulated by a temperature probe. Input is 110V AC.
It's item number: 280078754014
Any questions are welcome.
Thanks,
Jake Oshins
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--- Begin Message ---
Jim:
Thanks for your clear and prompt reply. Since it's a hubmotor, I'm pretty
stuck at 1:1 for a ratio! However, I HAVE been lugging it up a hill on the
way home. I ~can~ just get off and walk it up when it gets below ~12KmH or
so. (That might also help with your first suggestion about diet!) The best
part of the scoot's design is its butter-smooth low power operation. I've
tried one of the 2Kw scooters, and they more or less lunge when you crack
the throttle. With this scoot, I can let it pull itself up a hill as I
stroll beside.
The lack of heat may be becuase the motor is fed current through a ~3' run
of 14ga wire! I've thought of upgrading the wire gage, but power isn't too
bad as it is, and I don't want my hubmotor to end up like some of the motors
you've given to the drag racer types... :)
Mark
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 17:11:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Jim Husted or other motor Guru's..
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hey Mark
Well you have clear signs of an overload. Anytime you
see that defined brush sized shadow mark on just half
the bar it's a sign of overload. Not sure what you
can do but diet, lmao. Changing gear ratios would
help if possible. Avoiding upgrades will also add
some life to the motor. As to the laminations tap
them straight again with a flat head screwdriver and
call it good. I don't want to admit how many times
I've done that in 25 years hehe.
On a positive note I don't see any signs of heat.
One last thought would be to make sure you're not
running down the batt's which could contribute to this
effect. It will eventually get worse and wear the
brushes prematurely which you've seen with the dust
that has already shown itself.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Mark Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jim:
>
> After 1000 KM on my big brawny 700 watt Yonkang
> Crown scoot, I opened up the
> hubmotor:
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/img/822/822e.jpg
>
> and found that my PC-7 magnet repair was holding
> fine. I found very
> light accumulations of comm dust. However, there is
> an odd wear pattern
> on the comm:
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/img/822/822c.jpg
>
> Any opinions?
>
> Also it looks like I snagged the rotor laminations
> at some point when
> pulling the stator:
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/img/822/822f.jpg
>
> My plan is to put a drop of superglue in the
> laminations, and squeeze them
> back together. Does this make sense?
>
> Thanks all...
> Mark
>
_________________________________________________________________
Check out all that glitters with the MSN Entertainment Guide to the Academy
Awards® http://movies.msn.com/movies/oscars2007/?icid=ncoscartagline2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm honoured to be asked to help, and pleased you have got so far. I
only wish I had more time to spare at the moment, I start a new
smemester at University tomorrow with four new core modules, and
being a mature student doesn't make things easier !
That said, I'm able to log in to internet forums probably on a twice
daily basis at least, and in order to help with the startup if you
would like to send me an email outlining how I can be of help please
do so, to fixitsan_AT_aol.com and I'll do what I can.
Chris
In an unseasonally mild, globally warmed, Scotland
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Chris,
>
> Would you be willing to assist in the administration of the
website.
> I've tentatively got everything setup, with the exception of an
index
> page (which I am developing now), but will definitely need
assistance in
> getting things kicked off. I've created a forum thread just for
> socia-economic discussions (I think it is a good one to have as
well,
> and would make an insightful reference point for my students who
are
> interested). You can view the thread here:
>
> http://evmechanic.net/evchatportal/index.php
>
> Thanks for your suggestion,
>
> Ralph.
>
> Chris wrote:
> > Can I please request that one area be set up especially FOR socia-
> > economic discussion. I keep getting more and more good arguments
to
> > drive ev's an plug-in hybrids, but posting them gets me a bad rep
at
> > the moment.
> >
> > Good Luck with this project, I'm very sure it will snowball
> > Chris
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
