EV Digest 6395
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVLN(US Automakers say PIH battery cost & reliability slow R&D)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EVLN(King County's 400 plug-in electric cars)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EVLN(Hydro-Quebec's EV push)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EVLN(Tesla's cross-country road trip)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Charging station signage
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EVLN(Mike Moore's $12k EV conversions)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: I.d. that motor
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Regs? Opinions Please?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: wiring size
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Question about 20 gauge fusible link, what is the blow current in amps?
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: wiring size
by "Rick Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: wiring size
by "Rick Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(US Automakers say PIH battery cost & reliability slow R&D)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070206/BUSINESS01/702060324/1002/BUSINESS
Bush's energy signals mixed
Boost sought for hybrid batteries February 6, 2007
BY JUSTIN HYDE FREE PRESS WASHINGTON STAFF
WASHINGTON -- President George W. Bush's budget proposal for
fiscal 2008 includes an increase in funding for battery research
[...], something that has been on the wish list of Detroit
automakers, but trims money for developing more efficient
vehicles.
[...]
Secretary of Energy Samuel Bodman said the proposal "funds the
research that will help us meet the president's goal of reducing
our nation's gasoline use by 20% in 10 years by investing in
vehicle technology" so "that we can make cars more efficient."
But Therese Langer, transportation program director for the
American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy, said the plan
favored far-off technologies over those that could offer more
efficient vehicles in a few years.
"The notion that these high-profile programs get this healthy
increase versus this slowly languishing vehicle technology
program is discouraging," Langer said.
According to the administration, the proposed budget for the
Department of Energy includes $42 million for developing
batteries for plug-in hybrid vehicles, a modest increase from
last year's $31-million request.
Automakers say battery cost and reliability are the main hurdles
to building plug-in hybrids, which hold the promise of offering
big gains in fuel efficiency and reducing demand for foreign
sources of energy. Detroit automakers told the Bush
administration in December that it should triple the funding
devoted to battery research up to $100 million a year and give
incentives for building electric vehicle batteries in the United
States.
Some Detroit executives have been concerned that foreign
companies, especially Japanese suppliers, control all such
manufacturing today, and could crimp supply or give a
technological edge to foreign companies. General Motors spokesman
Greg Martin said the budget was a "step in the right direction
toward energy diversity."
"We hope it is just the beginning of stronger support for
advanced technology and alternative fuels, things that can really
displace oil consumption," he said.
Although the administration touted its increase in battery
funding, its request for vehicle efficiency research was $176
million, down $8 million from last year's request. That research,
part of the department's Office of Energy Efficiency and
Renewable Energy, includes areas such as lightweight materials,
better internal combustion engines and heavy vehicle efficiency.
[...]
Contact JUSTIN HYDE at 202-906-8204 or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(King County's 400 plug-in electric cars)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003561070_webwarming07.html
Wednesday, February 7, 2007 - 12:00 AM
Sims announcement launches day of global-warming efforts
By Keith Ervin Seattle Times staff reporter
King County Executive Ron Sims, calling global warming "the
defining issue for humankind in the 21st century," this morning
called for the reduction of the region's climate-disrupting
pollution to 20 percent of current levels by 2050.
To gain support for that goal and develop strategies for
reaching it Sims said he will convene a group of government,
business and environmental leaders.
The news conference was part of a collective announcement by
leading elected officials today.
In Olympia today at a noon, Gov. Christine Gregoire and Senate
Democrats are announcing their own global warming initiatives.
Gregoire is expected to release an executive order setting
targets for future reductions of greenhouse gases, and creating a
task force to come up with recommendations on how to do it.
Senate Democrats say they will unveil a legislative package
including similar targets. But they are expected to go further
than the governor, calling for restrictions on utilities that
would essentially bar them from signing long-term contracts for
electricity from coal-fired power plants, a major source of
greenhouse gases in the U.S.
Sims, who owns a hybrid Toyota Highlander, said reducing
carbon-dioxide emissions from vehicles will be key to meeting his
pollution-reducing goal. He released a 176-page climate plan and
a 28-page energy plan.
"We are not the first to make that pledge and we will not be the
last, but we're determined to do it," said Sims.
Sims's goal is similar to an executive order that California
Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger issued in 2005 setting a goal for
that state to reduce greenhouse-gas emissions 80 percent below
1990 levels by 2050.
As one step in meeting his goal, Sims said the county government
will acquire 400 plug-in electric cars to supplement its current
fleet of hybrid gas-electric cars and new diesel-electric buses.
But he cited few steps that have not been previously announced.
"One thing that we know is if we do nothing about global warming,
it will be the first time in American history where the next
generation's quality of life is worse," he said.
After the news conference, Sims and his staff drove a plug-in
electric car to Olympia to join Gregoire and other Democrats for
their noon event.
Copyright © 2006 The Seattle Times Company
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Hydro-Quebec's EV push)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=9e69f508-7818-495b-bc91-2ae82448c50a&k=59274
Hydro pushes for electric cars
The Montreal Gazette Wednesday, February 07, 2007
Technological innovations, such as an electric vehicle that would
consume $1 worth of juice per 100 km, are part of Hydro-Quebec's
vision for a greener future, its president told a Montreal
luncheon today.
If 25 per cent of the vehicles in Quebec were electric, it would
prevent more than three million tonnes of carbon dioxide going
into the atmosphere, Thierry Vandal said.
While mass production of that car is "years" down the road, Hydro
does have shorter-term goals of increasing energy efficiency and
ensuring a steady supply of low-cost environment-friendly energy,
he said.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Tesla's cross-country road trip)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://news.com.com/2061-11128_3-6156963.html
Tesla Motors hits up state governments for money
February 6, 2007 9:16 PM PST
Electric-car specialist Tesla Motors is on a cross-country road
trip, and it's asking for millions of dollars from state
legislatures.
Last month, the company met with the governor of Michigan, which
is putting together an incentive proposal to get the company to
build a car assembly factory in the state. (Tesla has separately
agreed to build an engineering facility in the state.) The
factory would be used to build the company's passenger vehicles,
code-named White Star, due in 2009.
This month, California Assemblyman Kevin de León, D-Los Angeles,
has put together a bill, called AB 255, with Mark DeSaulnier that
would create a $45 million technology fund, according to the San
Jose Mercury News. DeSaulnier said Tesla is looking for $20
million over a 10-year period, according to the paper.
The money would be raised by tacking $4 onto the smog abatement
fee when individuals register any car.
A representative for the company declined to comment on the
California proposal but said the company would look after its
interests. It also plans to talk with New Mexico. That state, run
by presidential candidate Bill Richardson, has actually invested
directly in technology companies in the past.
Tesla has raised more than $40 million in venture capital.
Tech companies seeking money from governments isn't exactly new.
Google recently got $100 million in concessions from North
Carolina in exchange for promising to build a data center. The
Tesla proposals do differ slightly from the typical pattern. For
one thing, these grants often go to established companies like
Intel or IBM, which have an extensive record for job creation.
Tesla came out of stealth mode just last year.
Concessions usually come in the form of tax breaks or
infrastructure improvements that don't require necessarily
out-of-pocket payments. AP 255 appears to contemplate a payment,
at least according to the Mercury News story. California voters
have frowned on this. Proposition 87, which would have empowered
a state panel to award a few billion dollars in grants to ethanol
companies, was rejected by California voters last year.
Still, competition among states and governments for marquee
companies is strong, and some small companies are landing deals.
New York recently gave New Hampshire's Mascoma, a
cellulosic-ethanol company, $14.8 million in grants to build a
plant in the Empire State. Mascoma is required to work with a
couple of other New York institutions as part of the grant.
Although he declined to comment on the California legislative
proposal, the Tesla representative did give some new details on
White Star. There are actually two White Star vehicles in the
works. The cheaper one is set to cost less than $50,000 and last
about 130 miles. It will also accelerate from 0 mph to 60 mph in
just 6.7 seconds, according to the rep. A more expensive version
is designed to hit 60 mph in less than 6 seconds and to last
about 200 miles. Both cars are designed to seat four adults.
The Tesla Roadster, a sports car set to hit the road later this
year, has a range of about 225 miles and can hit 60 mph in just 4
seconds, the company says. It also has a bigger battery. Tesla
has booked orders for more than 220 roadsters so far.
Posted by Michael Kanellos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Copyright ©2007 CNET Networks, Inc. All rights reserved
===
http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2007/02/06/big-oil-and-its-cheerleaders-ive-had-just-about-enough/
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone,
BEVOB and the BVS have scored a goal in the hunt for charging
stations in Bristol, UK and are having two parking bays at our large
local mall converted to EV only charging bays.
I've been contacted by the management company of the mall who wanted
to know if there's a standard sign we should put up.
I've seen many different ways of marking an EV charging point. Does
anyone have any graphics or photographs they could let me have to
pass on?
Thanks
Nikki.
_______________________________
Old car? New tricks?
Visit aminorjourney.com to see the transformation from Hebe to EV.
E-minor isn't just a key any more...
_______________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Mike Moore's $12k EV conversions)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.heraldonline.com/109/story/12501.html
Take a deep breath -- and drive
Lake Wylie couple building 'a better world' by converting cars to
electric power from fuel
By Adam MacInnis · The Herald - Updated 02/07/07 - 12:14 AM
[
http://media.heraldonline.com/smedia/2007/02/07/00/550-217716-103745.standalone.prod_affiliate.6.jpg
]
Melissa Cherry • The Herald
Mike Moore, owner of Ampmobiles [ http://ampmobiles.com ],
stands in front of an internal combustion engine vehicle he
converted to electric power. Mike Moore maintains that if you
can see air, you shouldn't breathe it.
He's been seeing a little too much air lately.
Pollution is a problem Moore hopes to help solve as one of a
handful of mechanics in America converting internal combustion
engine vehicles to electric power.
Together with his wife, Paula, Moore runs Ampmobiles, which is
based in Lake Wylie. The shop is in Fort Mill, where he can
convert a car to electric power for between $10,000 and $12,000.
In the 18 months his business has been open, he's successfully
converted five cars.
Interest is picking up, Moore said, and this month the business
will be featured on "The Connection," a new nonprofit television
show based in Charleston. Air dates are Feb. 25 and March 4.
The electric cars charge from a 120 volt outlet and will get
between 50 and 60 miles per charge. It takes between six and
eight hours to charge the cars.
The optimum speed for the electric vehicles is between 35 and 50
mph, but Moore said he's had them up as high as 70 mph.
"Somewhere around 80 percent of people in this country drive less
than 40 miles a day, which means that an electric vehicle could
work for approximately 80 percent of this population, if they
wanted it to," Moore said.
An auto body mechanic for 30 years, Moore did his first
conversion on his Chevrolet S10 truck.
The process is relatively simple, he said. The internal
combustion engine, gas tank and other things associated with gas
power are replaced with an electric motor and batteries
underneath the trunk.
On the road, an electric car is quiet. You hear the road and the
wind and a whine about as loud as a computer booting up.
"Other than the fact that they're really, really quiet, you can't
tell a whole lot of difference," Moore said.
One drawback, however, is that the car doesn't accelerate
quickly, Moore said, comparing it to a four-cylinder engine.
"You have to learn how to drive one of these cars," he said. "You
learn different techniques of shifting, and everything works out
pretty good. It's just a different beast."
The heating and air conditioning units in electric cars also
aren't as strong, and the short range of the batteries hinders
longs trips.
Moore has orders to convert 16 more vehicles and regularly
receives e-mails and phone calls from people in places from as
far away as South Africa, Israel, France, England and Australia,
he said.
Electric cars are popular out west and interest is moving this
way, said Rod Trump, associate dean for the industrial division
at York Technical College. The cars are better for the
environment and efficient, he said.
"The biggest problem that they've always had with electric
vehicles is trying to find a battery that will hold a charge long
enough to give you enough distance and then the time to
recharge," Trump said. "You can't do like you used to with your
car -- run into a gas station and 15 minutes pull out with a full
tank of gas."
Batteries last only three to six years depending on maintenance,
Moore said. Better batteries are available but not to the
public.
"Once we have a battery that's capable of giving us a range of
100 miles or more per charge, then electric vehicles will be much
more prevalent in society," Moore said.
When companies see the interest in electric cars, Moore hopes new
technology will be developed, he said. The goal is to prove it
can be done.
"It's time to just make a better world," he said. "We have
grandchildren, and I want my grandchild when he gets to my age to
be able to breathe."
WANT TO LEARN MORE? -- Adam MacInnis
[...]
The new nonprofit television show based in Charleston, which airs
on local access cable stations in South Carolina and on the
Internet, features people who are trying to make South Carolina a
better place.
[...]
Mike Moore and his wife, Paula, of Lake Wylie were
interviewed for a show [...] that will air Feb. 25
and March 4.
Ideas for the show are abundant, Gregory said.
"I have a whole file cabinet full of ideas. Any time I hear about
somebody doing good work on a certain issue, I put them in
there," Gregory said. "I don't think we'll run out of stories."
Locally, "The Connection" can be seen on cable station Tri County
14 on Sundays at 5:30 p.m. Online it can be viewed at
[ http://theconnectionshow.org ].
Adam MacInnis • 329-4000 | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
All rights reserved.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:03 PM 7/02/07 -0600, Matt wrote:
I just came into possession of a new small motor.
Oriental motor Co. RR9
reversible motor 01541
B0160-454
100W 100V 50/60Hz
40uF 10min.
It has 5 wires of 20 gauge. I assume that it is AC.
G'day Matt
Yup, you've got a little AC motor, 100 watt with only a 10 min run time
(without mention of the cool-down time or duty cycle). Strange that a motor
that size should require 40uF, I'd have thought 4uF would be more its' mark.
Hth
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello group,
I've been a lurker for a long time and have learned a lot from you all. I
have recently converted a 1995 Hyundai Elantra and have loved driving it. I
have ten, 12 volt Trojans for a total pack of 120 Volts. I have a correctly
programmed Zivan NG3 charger onboard. Today, I was making some measurements
while
the car was charging. I have 3 batteries that are three months newer than
the rest. The voltage on these batteries was around 15.2 volts when the other
batteries were still charging at 13.73 or so. I am aware of the Zivan
charging/equalizing process.
Question: Do I need regulators to even out the charge on each battery? If
so, what brand/make to you recommend? Ang? Rudman? Others?
THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/887>
David in Georgia
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland, the point you keep missing is that the total VOLTAGE has no effect
on the voltage drop in the wires.
Its ohms's law plain and simple. The voltage drop in the wire is equal to
the wire's resistance * the current. The applied voltage is irelevent.
Yes the size of the conductor affects the voltage drop, but the applied
voltage does NOT. You would have the exact same voltage drop on a 240V
ciruit running 18 amps with the same size conductor.
Every electician knows this.
The problem is that you were originally saying that voltage drop is a
percentage of applied voltage, and it's not. It has NOTHING to do with
applied voltage. Then you gave an example of battery sag to support your
position, and this also has NOTHING to do with voltage drop in the wiring.
Voltage drop depends on wire resitance, and in this case, connection
resistance, and the current. That's it.
Wire resistance depends on length and diameter. Connection resistance is
normally negligible (unless it's a bad connection) but in EVs we tend to
have a LOT of connections, so it adds up.
To reiterate my point (which has not changed) voltage drop in wiring has
NOTHING to do with applied voltage, it depends solely on the resistance
and the current.
> We change out a feeder on a building that had 50 feet of No. Awg 6 wire
> from
> the transformer, which was connected to about 100 feet of No. Awg. 10 to a
> power outlet. They had a 250 feet of No.12 AWG multi stranded copper wire
> plug into this power out that ran to a 18 amp load. They could not
> understand why the voltage only read 90 volts!
>
> There was too much voltage drop for the size of the conductors running 300
> feet for that load. We replace the largest ones we can get in the
> existing
> conduit, so the voltage drop was now to about 115 volt.
>
> Therefore the size of conductor made a difference at the same load of 18
> amps at the same voltage.
>
> If you apply the same voltage and ampere to different size conductors, the
> smaller conductor will have more voltage drop. Every electrical work knows
> this.
>
> I think the problem we have, is that you said, changing the ampere and
> distance at the same voltage results in a voltage drop which is true,
> while
> I say the ampere and distance is constant, but a reducing the wire size
> increases the voltage drop which is also true.
>
> As electrical workers, we install many different length of conductors on a
> 20 amp circuit. So we mainly think of the length of the circuit for that
> size wire. The preferred maximum run length of a No. 12 wire is 50 feet.
> At and after 50 feet we use a No. 10 wire on a 20 amp circuit, even though
> the No. 10 wire is rated for 30 amps. A No. 8 wire is run for a maximum
> of
> 40 feet for a 40 amp circuit and so on.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 8:59 AM
> Subject: Re: wiring size
>
>
>> <shakes head>
>> Roland, at 200 amps a 2/0 cable drops about 0.5V regardless of pack
>> voltage. You'll see the same voltage drop at 120V or 240V when carrying
>> 200 amps.
>>
>> Of course the cable size has NOTHING to do with battery sag which is
>> what
>> you are describing.
>> Battery sag is related to the batteries and has nothing to do with what
>> size cables you use or how many connections there are, all that matters
>> is
>> how much current you pull, the particulars of your battery (some
>> batteries
>> sag less than others), and how well charged it is.
>>
>> > I said the total run of 50 feet circuit length, which includes the 2/0
>> > cables, cable lugs, batteries, battery links, contactors, shunts and
>> > controller. In my EV this is about 3 percent voltage drop in a EV 50
>> > foot
>> > circuit which includes the battery links.
>> >
>> > I am running 50 feet of circuit length of which the voltage reads 192
>> > volts
>> > at no load, and at exactly 200 amp load, my battery voltage reads
>> about
>> > 186
>> > volts which is about 3 percent volt drop of the applied voltage. I
>> read
>> > this ampere and voltage with four industrial meters and also the
>> > E-meter,
>> > and they read all the same.
>> >
>> > Roland
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:26 PM
>> > Subject: Re: wiring size
>> >
>> >
>> >> I think something is wrong with your math.
>> >>
>> >> The voltage drop should be constant at a give current and length, not
>> a
>> >> percentage of applied voltage.
>> >>
>> >> 1/0 cable has about 0.096 ohms resistance per thousand feet, or
>> 0.0048
>> >> ohms for 50 feet. By my calculations, that works out to ~0.8 volts
>> at
>> >> 170
>> >> amps and ~0.9 V at 195 amps.
>> >>
>> >> I don't have a clue how you came up with 10 volts of drop at 195
>> amps,
>> >> but
>> >> that would make a nice space heater (almost 2,000 watts) ;-)
>> >>
>> >> > Hello Tim,
>> >> >
>> >> > The amperage rating of the conductor depends on many factors. The
>> >> type
>> >> > of
>> >> > conductor, temperature rating of the insulation, running it in a
>> >> > close
>> >> > compartment and the circuit length.
>> >> >
>> >> > The circuit length is the total circuit loop length, not just the
>> >> length
>> >> > of
>> >> > run between two points. In my EV, I have a total run of 25 feet of
>> >> > conductor including all the battery lines, to the controller and to
>> >> the
>> >> > motor. The circuit length is 50 feet.
>> >> >
>> >> > 1/0 copper stranded bare wire run in air is good for 175 amps
>> >> continuous
>> >> > for
>> >> > a 3 percent voltage drop.
>> >> >
>> >> > A 1/0 copper stranded wire that has a insulation rating of 90
>> degrees
>> >> C
>> >> > or
>> >> > 194 degrees F is good for 170 amps continuous with a 3 percent
>> >> > voltage
>> >> > drop.
>> >> >
>> >> > A 2/0 copper stranded wire with a insulation rating of 90 degrees C
>> >> > is
>> >> > good
>> >> > for 195 amps continuous at 3 percent VD.
>> >> >
>> >> > The above distances are at 100 feet circuit length, so the voltage
>> >> drop
>> >> > will
>> >> > be proportional to the length. At 50 feet circuit length it will
>> be
>> >> > about
>> >> > 1.5 percent voltage drop.
>> >> >
>> >> > At 72 volts, it will drop to about 62 volts under a 195 amp load
>> for
>> >> > a
>> >> > 50
>> >> > foot circuit length. As you increase the ampere, the voltage will
>> >> drop
>> >> > proportional.
>> >> >
>> >> > It would be best to use 2/0 multi strand copper wire with a voltage
>> >> > rating
>> >> > of 300 volts for any voltages under 250 volts and 600 volt rating
>> for
>> >> > voltages over 300 volts.
>> >> >
>> >> > Roland
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > From: "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 8:32 PM
>> >> > Subject: wiring size
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> is 1/0 wiring big enough to take 450 amps for short bursts and
>> >> 100-200
>> >> >> amps
>> >> >> continuous at 72 volts?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _________________________________________________________________
>> >> >> http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=43.658648~-79.383962&style=r&lvl=15&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=3702663&cid=7ABE80D1746919B4!1329
>> >> >> >From January 26 to February 8, 2007
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of
>> legalistic
>> >> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
>> >> whatever
>> >> I
>> >> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your
>> long
>> >> legalistic signature is void.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
>> I
>> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
>> legalistic signature is void.
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I have a question about 20 gauge fusible links. Can't find much information
about them,
and not many places to buy them by googling! Anyways, what is the current that
will
trip the fusible link in amps, for say, a 20 gauge fusible link? I'm guessing
15 amps or so?
- Tony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also Here is your 2/0 cable theory.
According to NEC 2005 Table 8 Conductor Properties
2/0 Coated wire offers a resistance of .0101 Ohms per 1000FT. Resistance is
a constant! Therefore voltage and amperage will change. According to Ohm's
law!
Go to this site to figure your voltage drop.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html
-Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 4:05 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: wiring size
Roland, the point you keep missing is that the total VOLTAGE has no effect
on the voltage drop in the wires.
Its ohms's law plain and simple. The voltage drop in the wire is equal to
the wire's resistance * the current. The applied voltage is irelevent.
Yes the size of the conductor affects the voltage drop, but the applied
voltage does NOT. You would have the exact same voltage drop on a 240V
ciruit running 18 amps with the same size conductor.
Every electician knows this.
The problem is that you were originally saying that voltage drop is a
percentage of applied voltage, and it's not. It has NOTHING to do with
applied voltage. Then you gave an example of battery sag to support your
position, and this also has NOTHING to do with voltage drop in the wiring.
Voltage drop depends on wire resitance, and in this case, connection
resistance, and the current. That's it.
Wire resistance depends on length and diameter. Connection resistance is
normally negligible (unless it's a bad connection) but in EVs we tend to
have a LOT of connections, so it adds up.
To reiterate my point (which has not changed) voltage drop in wiring has
NOTHING to do with applied voltage, it depends solely on the resistance
and the current.
> We change out a feeder on a building that had 50 feet of No. Awg 6 wire
> from
> the transformer, which was connected to about 100 feet of No. Awg. 10 to a
> power outlet. They had a 250 feet of No.12 AWG multi stranded copper wire
> plug into this power out that ran to a 18 amp load. They could not
> understand why the voltage only read 90 volts!
>
> There was too much voltage drop for the size of the conductors running 300
> feet for that load. We replace the largest ones we can get in the
> existing
> conduit, so the voltage drop was now to about 115 volt.
>
> Therefore the size of conductor made a difference at the same load of 18
> amps at the same voltage.
>
> If you apply the same voltage and ampere to different size conductors, the
> smaller conductor will have more voltage drop. Every electrical work knows
> this.
>
> I think the problem we have, is that you said, changing the ampere and
> distance at the same voltage results in a voltage drop which is true,
> while
> I say the ampere and distance is constant, but a reducing the wire size
> increases the voltage drop which is also true.
>
> As electrical workers, we install many different length of conductors on a
> 20 amp circuit. So we mainly think of the length of the circuit for that
> size wire. The preferred maximum run length of a No. 12 wire is 50 feet.
> At and after 50 feet we use a No. 10 wire on a 20 amp circuit, even though
> the No. 10 wire is rated for 30 amps. A No. 8 wire is run for a maximum
> of
> 40 feet for a 40 amp circuit and so on.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 8:59 AM
> Subject: Re: wiring size
>
>
>> <shakes head>
>> Roland, at 200 amps a 2/0 cable drops about 0.5V regardless of pack
>> voltage. You'll see the same voltage drop at 120V or 240V when carrying
>> 200 amps.
>>
>> Of course the cable size has NOTHING to do with battery sag which is
>> what
>> you are describing.
>> Battery sag is related to the batteries and has nothing to do with what
>> size cables you use or how many connections there are, all that matters
>> is
>> how much current you pull, the particulars of your battery (some
>> batteries
>> sag less than others), and how well charged it is.
>>
>> > I said the total run of 50 feet circuit length, which includes the 2/0
>> > cables, cable lugs, batteries, battery links, contactors, shunts and
>> > controller. In my EV this is about 3 percent voltage drop in a EV 50
>> > foot
>> > circuit which includes the battery links.
>> >
>> > I am running 50 feet of circuit length of which the voltage reads 192
>> > volts
>> > at no load, and at exactly 200 amp load, my battery voltage reads
>> about
>> > 186
>> > volts which is about 3 percent volt drop of the applied voltage. I
>> read
>> > this ampere and voltage with four industrial meters and also the
>> > E-meter,
>> > and they read all the same.
>> >
>> > Roland
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:26 PM
>> > Subject: Re: wiring size
>> >
>> >
>> >> I think something is wrong with your math.
>> >>
>> >> The voltage drop should be constant at a give current and length, not
>> a
>> >> percentage of applied voltage.
>> >>
>> >> 1/0 cable has about 0.096 ohms resistance per thousand feet, or
>> 0.0048
>> >> ohms for 50 feet. By my calculations, that works out to ~0.8 volts
>> at
>> >> 170
>> >> amps and ~0.9 V at 195 amps.
>> >>
>> >> I don't have a clue how you came up with 10 volts of drop at 195
>> amps,
>> >> but
>> >> that would make a nice space heater (almost 2,000 watts) ;-)
>> >>
>> >> > Hello Tim,
>> >> >
>> >> > The amperage rating of the conductor depends on many factors. The
>> >> type
>> >> > of
>> >> > conductor, temperature rating of the insulation, running it in a
>> >> > close
>> >> > compartment and the circuit length.
>> >> >
>> >> > The circuit length is the total circuit loop length, not just the
>> >> length
>> >> > of
>> >> > run between two points. In my EV, I have a total run of 25 feet of
>> >> > conductor including all the battery lines, to the controller and to
>> >> the
>> >> > motor. The circuit length is 50 feet.
>> >> >
>> >> > 1/0 copper stranded bare wire run in air is good for 175 amps
>> >> continuous
>> >> > for
>> >> > a 3 percent voltage drop.
>> >> >
>> >> > A 1/0 copper stranded wire that has a insulation rating of 90
>> degrees
>> >> C
>> >> > or
>> >> > 194 degrees F is good for 170 amps continuous with a 3 percent
>> >> > voltage
>> >> > drop.
>> >> >
>> >> > A 2/0 copper stranded wire with a insulation rating of 90 degrees C
>> >> > is
>> >> > good
>> >> > for 195 amps continuous at 3 percent VD.
>> >> >
>> >> > The above distances are at 100 feet circuit length, so the voltage
>> >> drop
>> >> > will
>> >> > be proportional to the length. At 50 feet circuit length it will
>> be
>> >> > about
>> >> > 1.5 percent voltage drop.
>> >> >
>> >> > At 72 volts, it will drop to about 62 volts under a 195 amp load
>> for
>> >> > a
>> >> > 50
>> >> > foot circuit length. As you increase the ampere, the voltage will
>> >> drop
>> >> > proportional.
>> >> >
>> >> > It would be best to use 2/0 multi strand copper wire with a voltage
>> >> > rating
>> >> > of 300 volts for any voltages under 250 volts and 600 volt rating
>> for
>> >> > voltages over 300 volts.
>> >> >
>> >> > Roland
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > From: "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 8:32 PM
>> >> > Subject: wiring size
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> is 1/0 wiring big enough to take 450 amps for short bursts and
>> >> 100-200
>> >> >> amps
>> >> >> continuous at 72 volts?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _________________________________________________________________
>> >> >>
http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=43.658648~-79.383962&style=r&lvl=1
5&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=3702663&cid=7ABE80D1746919B4!1329
>> >> >> >From January 26 to February 8, 2007
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of
>> legalistic
>> >> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
>> >> whatever
>> >> I
>> >> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your
>> long
>> >> legalistic signature is void.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
>> I
>> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
>> legalistic signature is void.
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually Chief, Voltage has every effect on voltage drop. Ohms law as you
said also states that current will be divided by half when voltage is
doubled. Hence a voltage drop of 3A at 150V will be 1.5A at 300V. WITH THE
SAME WIRE!
I am getting a little tired of the Egos that are on this list. Roland is
every bit correct.
-Richard Todd
P.E. Electrical Engineering
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 4:05 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: wiring size
Roland, the point you keep missing is that the total VOLTAGE has no effect
on the voltage drop in the wires.
Its ohms's law plain and simple. The voltage drop in the wire is equal to
the wire's resistance * the current. The applied voltage is irelevent.
Yes the size of the conductor affects the voltage drop, but the applied
voltage does NOT. You would have the exact same voltage drop on a 240V
ciruit running 18 amps with the same size conductor.
Every electician knows this.
The problem is that you were originally saying that voltage drop is a
percentage of applied voltage, and it's not. It has NOTHING to do with
applied voltage. Then you gave an example of battery sag to support your
position, and this also has NOTHING to do with voltage drop in the wiring.
Voltage drop depends on wire resitance, and in this case, connection
resistance, and the current. That's it.
Wire resistance depends on length and diameter. Connection resistance is
normally negligible (unless it's a bad connection) but in EVs we tend to
have a LOT of connections, so it adds up.
To reiterate my point (which has not changed) voltage drop in wiring has
NOTHING to do with applied voltage, it depends solely on the resistance
and the current.
> We change out a feeder on a building that had 50 feet of No. Awg 6 wire
> from
> the transformer, which was connected to about 100 feet of No. Awg. 10 to a
> power outlet. They had a 250 feet of No.12 AWG multi stranded copper wire
> plug into this power out that ran to a 18 amp load. They could not
> understand why the voltage only read 90 volts!
>
> There was too much voltage drop for the size of the conductors running 300
> feet for that load. We replace the largest ones we can get in the
> existing
> conduit, so the voltage drop was now to about 115 volt.
>
> Therefore the size of conductor made a difference at the same load of 18
> amps at the same voltage.
>
> If you apply the same voltage and ampere to different size conductors, the
> smaller conductor will have more voltage drop. Every electrical work knows
> this.
>
> I think the problem we have, is that you said, changing the ampere and
> distance at the same voltage results in a voltage drop which is true,
> while
> I say the ampere and distance is constant, but a reducing the wire size
> increases the voltage drop which is also true.
>
> As electrical workers, we install many different length of conductors on a
> 20 amp circuit. So we mainly think of the length of the circuit for that
> size wire. The preferred maximum run length of a No. 12 wire is 50 feet.
> At and after 50 feet we use a No. 10 wire on a 20 amp circuit, even though
> the No. 10 wire is rated for 30 amps. A No. 8 wire is run for a maximum
> of
> 40 feet for a 40 amp circuit and so on.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 8:59 AM
> Subject: Re: wiring size
>
>
>> <shakes head>
>> Roland, at 200 amps a 2/0 cable drops about 0.5V regardless of pack
>> voltage. You'll see the same voltage drop at 120V or 240V when carrying
>> 200 amps.
>>
>> Of course the cable size has NOTHING to do with battery sag which is
>> what
>> you are describing.
>> Battery sag is related to the batteries and has nothing to do with what
>> size cables you use or how many connections there are, all that matters
>> is
>> how much current you pull, the particulars of your battery (some
>> batteries
>> sag less than others), and how well charged it is.
>>
>> > I said the total run of 50 feet circuit length, which includes the 2/0
>> > cables, cable lugs, batteries, battery links, contactors, shunts and
>> > controller. In my EV this is about 3 percent voltage drop in a EV 50
>> > foot
>> > circuit which includes the battery links.
>> >
>> > I am running 50 feet of circuit length of which the voltage reads 192
>> > volts
>> > at no load, and at exactly 200 amp load, my battery voltage reads
>> about
>> > 186
>> > volts which is about 3 percent volt drop of the applied voltage. I
>> read
>> > this ampere and voltage with four industrial meters and also the
>> > E-meter,
>> > and they read all the same.
>> >
>> > Roland
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:26 PM
>> > Subject: Re: wiring size
>> >
>> >
>> >> I think something is wrong with your math.
>> >>
>> >> The voltage drop should be constant at a give current and length, not
>> a
>> >> percentage of applied voltage.
>> >>
>> >> 1/0 cable has about 0.096 ohms resistance per thousand feet, or
>> 0.0048
>> >> ohms for 50 feet. By my calculations, that works out to ~0.8 volts
>> at
>> >> 170
>> >> amps and ~0.9 V at 195 amps.
>> >>
>> >> I don't have a clue how you came up with 10 volts of drop at 195
>> amps,
>> >> but
>> >> that would make a nice space heater (almost 2,000 watts) ;-)
>> >>
>> >> > Hello Tim,
>> >> >
>> >> > The amperage rating of the conductor depends on many factors. The
>> >> type
>> >> > of
>> >> > conductor, temperature rating of the insulation, running it in a
>> >> > close
>> >> > compartment and the circuit length.
>> >> >
>> >> > The circuit length is the total circuit loop length, not just the
>> >> length
>> >> > of
>> >> > run between two points. In my EV, I have a total run of 25 feet of
>> >> > conductor including all the battery lines, to the controller and to
>> >> the
>> >> > motor. The circuit length is 50 feet.
>> >> >
>> >> > 1/0 copper stranded bare wire run in air is good for 175 amps
>> >> continuous
>> >> > for
>> >> > a 3 percent voltage drop.
>> >> >
>> >> > A 1/0 copper stranded wire that has a insulation rating of 90
>> degrees
>> >> C
>> >> > or
>> >> > 194 degrees F is good for 170 amps continuous with a 3 percent
>> >> > voltage
>> >> > drop.
>> >> >
>> >> > A 2/0 copper stranded wire with a insulation rating of 90 degrees C
>> >> > is
>> >> > good
>> >> > for 195 amps continuous at 3 percent VD.
>> >> >
>> >> > The above distances are at 100 feet circuit length, so the voltage
>> >> drop
>> >> > will
>> >> > be proportional to the length. At 50 feet circuit length it will
>> be
>> >> > about
>> >> > 1.5 percent voltage drop.
>> >> >
>> >> > At 72 volts, it will drop to about 62 volts under a 195 amp load
>> for
>> >> > a
>> >> > 50
>> >> > foot circuit length. As you increase the ampere, the voltage will
>> >> drop
>> >> > proportional.
>> >> >
>> >> > It would be best to use 2/0 multi strand copper wire with a voltage
>> >> > rating
>> >> > of 300 volts for any voltages under 250 volts and 600 volt rating
>> for
>> >> > voltages over 300 volts.
>> >> >
>> >> > Roland
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > ----- Original Message -----
>> >> > From: "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 8:32 PM
>> >> > Subject: wiring size
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >> is 1/0 wiring big enough to take 450 amps for short bursts and
>> >> 100-200
>> >> >> amps
>> >> >> continuous at 72 volts?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> _________________________________________________________________
>> >> >>
http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=43.658648~-79.383962&style=r&lvl=1
5&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=3702663&cid=7ABE80D1746919B4!1329
>> >> >> >From January 26 to February 8, 2007
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of
>> legalistic
>> >> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
>> >> whatever
>> >> I
>> >> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your
>> long
>> >> legalistic signature is void.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
>> I
>> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
>> legalistic signature is void.
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
