EV Digest 6402
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Soneil Chargers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: electric motor with a CVT
by "James Allgood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) electric motorcycle with automatic tranny
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: electric motor with a CVT
by Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Looking for a controller...
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by thomas ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Speaking of Hybrids
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Please Excuse the Repeat Messages
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by "Dale Curren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Soneil Chargers
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) KillaCycle featured in Hot Rod magazine, NEDRA website
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: KillaCycle featured in Hot Rod magazine, NEDRA website
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: A123 pictures
by Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: KillaCycle featured in Hot Rod magazine, NEDRA website
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: A123 pictures
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: A123 pictures
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
From: Darryl McMahon
>Disclosure: I am a distributor for Soneil chargers.
>
>You can leave the Soneil chargers hooked up indefinitely. You can do
>without regulators, assuming the batteries are initially fairly well
>balanced. The charger is intelligent, and will not overcharge the
>batteries. The finishing voltage is low enough that it will not damage
>even AGM batteries. They are designed specifically for this application.
Daryl, what is the voltage that the Soneil charger applies to a fully charged
battery? It sound like it does *not* shut off, but keeps charging indefinitely
at some "float" voltage? What is the float voltage?
Float charging works well when you only expect the battery to last 2-3 years.
The constant charging causes the battery to slowly lose water, which
strengthens the acid, until it begins corroding the lead plates themselves
(grid corrosion). The battery fails from excessive internal resistance and loss
of water.
Another problem with float chargers is that most are not temperature
compensated. The correct float voltage varies with temperature (lower as
temperature rises).
Finally, the correct float voltage depends on the type of battery, its age, and
condition. Usually, the charger blindly applies one specific voltage that is
assumed to be correct for all batteries for all time. That is not the case.
AGMs have such a low self-discharge rate that there is no reason to leave them
on a float charger. Just charge them normally, and turn the charger *completely
off*. Charge them again every 3-12 months, depending on the storage temperature.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are the fairings on your f4 off all the time or just for that picture?
Did you find it easier to install the components hanging down off the frame
rather than a bike with undertubes?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: electric motor with a CVT
Hey Tim
I have been hitting the delete a bit quick these days and missed your
question.
Most of the EV motorcycles will benefit from a transmission. A CVT would
be one choice, a two speed jackshaft, a stand alone transmission like a
Baker, etc.
The problem will be finding something cheap enough, small enough, light
enough and simple enough to fit the application.
CVT are well proven in the snowmobile and automatic ATV marketplace.
They are a simple device by design but are not that easy to tune. I
suggest you google CVT and read up on them or buy a book by Olav Aaen's
called the Clutch Tuning Handbook. It should be available at most high
performance snowmobile shops.
The CVT on my EZESport motorcycle gives me an overall gearing of 9:1 at
low gear and 3:1 at high gear. End result is better acceleration and a
higher top end speed.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/716
You need to adjust the clutch to engage at near 0 rpm as you don't need
the motor to idle like an ICE. Your shift rpm should be well below your
maximum rpm to keep power available. I have mine at around 2/3 max rpm
but it depends on your motor current. If you let it drop off due to back
EMF, you will not have much torque.
You need to size the CVT to the application. Little one like those on a
scooter will not work on a full size motocycle. The real big ones are
made to handle 200hp engines on high performance snowmobiles.
EZESport
lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
That's not for me to give. But if you saw his post on
the stocks earlier here......
--- Tim Gamber < wrote:
Can you give me his email address?
>From: lyle sloan > >Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: electric motor with a CVT
>Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 05:00:26 -0800 (PST)
>
>Tim,
>
>Please ask Ray Wong. He has done it to his bike
and
>he can help guide you with the benifits and how he
did
>it. This will help in your decision and prevent
you
>from burning through several like he did trying to
>find that sweet spot.
>
>
>--- Tim Gamber <> wrote:
>
> > If i was to make a electric motorcycle with a
CVT
> > what would i want it to
> > do. Would i want it to let the motor get to full
> > speed and then change the
> > gear ratio or somewhere in between? Can you even
> > adjust a cvt to shit at
> > different rpms? Are most of them mechanical or
> > computerized? can you program
> > or adjust them?
> >
> >
_________________________________________________________________
> >
http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=43.658648~-79.383962&style=r&lvl=15&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=3702663&cid=7ABE80D1746919B4!1329
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
>Looking for earth-friendly autos?
>Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos'
Green Center.
>http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
>
_________________________________________________________________
Free Alerts : Be smart - let your information find
you !
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____________________________________________________________________________________
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Games.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:50:45 -0800, you wrote:
>Tim,
>
>The CVT will eat up a little efficiency and power. The beauty of most
>electric vehicles is that the motor makes a lot of power over a great
>range of rpm's, and you can get by will little in the way of a
>transmission. However, you may be looking for extra speed or power.
>Recently I saw information about a motorcycle that was planned with a
>CVT transmission, but I cannot remember the name. Sorry,
This reminded me of driving a Honda 400 automatic in 1980. Does
anyone know about that transmission? Would this tranny work for an
electric bike?
R. Matt Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Everything fits inside the fairings. I have them off for pictures. My
complete drive system is a drop in that fits using the same mounting holes as
the ICE. This was needed as the ICE engine added strength to the frame and
also supported the Honda rear suspension links.
Ezesport
James Allgood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Are the fairings on your f4 off all the time or just for that picture?
Did you find it easier to install the components hanging down off the frame
rather than a bike with undertubes?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Wong"
To:
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: electric motor with a CVT
> Hey Tim
>
> I have been hitting the delete a bit quick these days and missed your
> question.
>
> Most of the EV motorcycles will benefit from a transmission. A CVT would
> be one choice, a two speed jackshaft, a stand alone transmission like a
> Baker, etc.
>
> The problem will be finding something cheap enough, small enough, light
> enough and simple enough to fit the application.
>
> CVT are well proven in the snowmobile and automatic ATV marketplace.
> They are a simple device by design but are not that easy to tune. I
> suggest you google CVT and read up on them or buy a book by Olav Aaen's
> called the Clutch Tuning Handbook. It should be available at most high
> performance snowmobile shops.
>
> The CVT on my EZESport motorcycle gives me an overall gearing of 9:1 at
> low gear and 3:1 at high gear. End result is better acceleration and a
> higher top end speed.
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/716
>
> You need to adjust the clutch to engage at near 0 rpm as you don't need
> the motor to idle like an ICE. Your shift rpm should be well below your
> maximum rpm to keep power available. I have mine at around 2/3 max rpm
> but it depends on your motor current. If you let it drop off due to back
> EMF, you will not have much torque.
>
> You need to size the CVT to the application. Little one like those on a
> scooter will not work on a full size motocycle. The real big ones are
> made to handle 200hp engines on high performance snowmobiles.
>
> EZESport
>
>
> lyle sloan wrote:
> That's not for me to give. But if you saw his post on
> the stocks earlier here......
>
> --- Tim Gamber < wrote:
>
>> Can you give me his email address?
>>
>>
>> >From: lyle sloan > >Reply-To: [email protected]
>> >To: [email protected]
>> >Subject: Re: electric motor with a CVT
>> >Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 05:00:26 -0800 (PST)
>> >
>> >Tim,
>> >
>> >Please ask Ray Wong. He has done it to his bike
>> and
>> >he can help guide you with the benifits and how he
>> did
>> >it. This will help in your decision and prevent
>> you
>> >from burning through several like he did trying to
>> >find that sweet spot.
>> >
>> >
>> >--- Tim Gamber <> wrote:
>> >
>> > > If i was to make a electric motorcycle with a
>> CVT
>> > > what would i want it to
>> > > do. Would i want it to let the motor get to full
>> > > speed and then change the
>> > > gear ratio or somewhere in between? Can you even
>> > > adjust a cvt to shit at
>> > > different rpms? Are most of them mechanical or
>> > > computerized? can you program
>> > > or adjust them?
>> > >
>> > >
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>> > >
>>
>>http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=43.658648~-79.383962&style=r&lvl=15&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&scene=3702663&cid=7ABE80D1746919B4!1329
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>____________________________________________________________________________________
>> >Looking for earth-friendly autos?
>> >Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos'
>> Green Center.
>> >http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
>> >
>>
>>
> _________________________________________________________________
>> Free Alerts : Be smart - let your information find
>> you !
>> http://alerts.live.com/Alerts/Default.aspx
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Be a PS3 game guru.
> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo!
> Games.
> http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a PS3 game guru.
> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo!
> Games.
>
>
---------------------------------
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd try Logisystems in Texas. Lawrence Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Could you clarify this please? I've never seen a
> rear wheel with a hollow
> shaft,
Peter
maybe European cars are different to American ones,
the few I have worked on all have a very short hollow
axle attached to the end of the swing arm.
___________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "thomas ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 6:22 AM
Subject: Re: Speaking of Hybrids
>
> --- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> > Could you clarify this please? I've never seen a
> > rear wheel with a hollow
> > shaft,
>
> Peter
>
> maybe European cars are different to American ones,
> the few I have worked on all have a very short hollow
> axle attached to the end of the swing arm.
>
There are three American cars I own have either a fix differential or a
transaxle, that both uses these hollow axle shafts, which are the same
material as a drive line with a U-joint on both ends.
One is the early model Corvettes 63 to the 80's a fixed differential with
swing axles. Some later Corvettes use a transaxle. The 65 to 69 Corvair
use a Munci transaxle and the same large swing axles tubes and suspension as
the Corvette has. Corvair change there early design which was a solid swing
axle and suspension that had too much camber, the wheels would tuck in like
the VW did.
The the same Munci transaxle and Corvettes suspension is use for the Manta
Mirage cars that are produce in California.
The Munci transaxle unit would make a good unit for a mid mounted motor.
Any v-6 or V-8 direct mounts to this transaxle and my GE-11 would also fit
it.
Roland
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> New Yahoo! Mail is the ultimate force in competitive emailing. Find out
> more at the Yahoo! Mail Championships. Plus: play games and win prizes.
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>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I also have been thinking along the same lines.
I have a 95 grand am, typical n-body, front wheel drive. In back the
suspension is basically a flat plate hinged at the front with what looks
like the same bearing mount as the front. I was planning on re-enforcing
and cutting a big hole in the plate. and hanging the motor on a bracket
from the trunk down. Then useing two half shafts from the front. To make
this work I want to modify a motor to have a hollow shaft and a mount
plate that allows me to use the standard final drive from the GM
automatic (HD version). In this way I get a differential and a 3:1 gear
reduction with some standard guts.
I figure I will make spring riser blocks with cross holes through them
to both raise the back end up after I load the area between the rear
coil towers with batteries and to provide a place for the drive shafts.
They're are a lot of n-body cars out there and I thought this would make
a great kit.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Could you clarify this please? I've never seen a
>> rear wheel with a hollow shaft
Roland has it right; 1963-1980's Corvettes and 1665-69 Corvairs have large
diameter pipe as their rear axle, with universal joints at the inner and outer
ends. They look just like a typical front-engine rear-drive vehicle's drive
shaft.
We are working on this very problem in our Sunrise. We decided to use a 1989-97
Ford Thunderbird rear end. These cars have fully independent rear suspension,
with everything mounted to a subframe that is easily removed. The differential
mounts to the subframe. Axles with universal joints connect each side to the
wheels. Upper and lower wishbones run from the differential to the wheel, with
a coil spring.
The problem is that we have to narrow the track about 10". That means cutting
those solid axles, shortening them, and welding them back together. We well may
go to tubular axles to make this easier/stronger.
BTW, the first prototype will be a DC system (to see how the Sunrise performs
with a simpler cheaper drive system). We have a WarP 9" motor on order. The
differential is being changed to 5.14:1 gears. It will be flipped upside down,
and use dry sump lubrication to reduce losses. The motor will mount directly to
it through a spider coupler (no clutch or transmission).
We're leaving room for even a WarP 11" motor, and the T'bird differential has
huge 8.9" gears, so if someone wants to go drag racing, this setup should be
strong enough to do it!
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Lee,
It is better and easily to make up the tubular axles. You can do it your
self. Do not need a lathe or balancing machine as you would on solid axles.
Just cut the tubes to the correct length, and you can get U-joints that
slide in tight. Just weld them up and 99.9 percent of the time, they do not
need any balancing if you have a nice smooth weld bead. The axles do not
turn that high rpm anyway. My maximum rpm on my axles in final gear of
5.57:1 at a motor rpm of 6000 rpm is 1080 rpm at 92 mph.
Use a good tubing design for drive lines. There is no welded seam in them.
I normally have to pick them up from a machine shop that does this type of
work.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: Speaking of Hybrids
> >> Could you clarify this please? I've never seen a
> >> rear wheel with a hollow shaft
>
> Roland has it right; 1963-1980's Corvettes and 1665-69 Corvairs have large
> diameter pipe as their rear axle, with universal joints at the inner and
> outer ends. They look just like a typical front-engine rear-drive
> vehicle's drive shaft.
>
> We are working on this very problem in our Sunrise. We decided to use a
> 1989-97 Ford Thunderbird rear end. These cars have fully independent rear
> suspension, with everything mounted to a subframe that is easily removed.
> The differential mounts to the subframe. Axles with universal joints
> connect each side to the wheels. Upper and lower wishbones run from the
> differential to the wheel, with a coil spring.
>
> The problem is that we have to narrow the track about 10". That means
> cutting those solid axles, shortening them, and welding them back
> together. We well may go to tubular axles to make this easier/stronger.
>
> BTW, the first prototype will be a DC system (to see how the Sunrise
> performs with a simpler cheaper drive system). We have a WarP 9" motor on
> order. The differential is being changed to 5.14:1 gears. It will be
> flipped upside down, and use dry sump lubrication to reduce losses. The
> motor will mount directly to it through a spider coupler (no clutch or
> transmission).
>
> We're leaving room for even a WarP 11" motor, and the T'bird differential
> has huge 8.9" gears, so if someone wants to go drag racing, this setup
> should be strong enough to do it!
> --
> Lee Hart
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
However, the earlier POST included the Attachemts
This time it is in TEXT below under "WHY"
---------------------------------------------------------------
Come ONE Come ALL To OLYMPIA Washington
to put your Support behind House Bill 1820
What DATE: Wednesday February 14th, 2007
Where: Car Pooling from MC Electric Dearborne Street, Seattle
When: 1:30 p.m. push off time to Olympia
Who: All SEVA members or any one else who would like to
See the proliferation of EVs and NEV's by
making them more marketable, with a top speed of 35
in stead of the very limited 25 mph !
WHY:
WHERE AS,
the popularization and utilization of Electric Vehicles (EVs)
Can drastically reduce our dependence on foreign Oil.
WHERE AS,
the efficiency of an EV is 4 to 5 times that of petrol driven
Internal combustion vehicles per dollar of energy.
WHERE AS,
the pollution per mile of an EV is much less than an Internal
Combustion Engines, using any and all known fuels, even if the
electricity is derived from Coal Fired electric generation, and
MANY times cleaner when derived from hydro, or renewable energy
like wind and solar.
WHERE AS,
Neighborhood Electric Vehicles, (NEV’s) cost less, and are more
available than most free-way certified EV’s, Hybrids and yet to
be available Plug-In Hybrids.
WHERE AS,
most urban automobile trips are within the range per charge
of most NEV's and other EV’s.
WHERE AS,
the Department of Energy has determined that existing
available electric energy in the National Grid, could power
80% of today’s vehicles if recharged during OFF-PEAK periods.
WHERE AS,
the present federal and state category of “low speed Electric
Vehicles” limits their arterial road speed to 25 m.p.h. which
greatly inhibits their marketability.
WHERE AS,
other vehicle types, which do not go through crash testing,
Roll-over testing, and implementation of Air Bags ARE
allowed no speed restrictions, such as motor cycles, and
Certain 3-wheel vehicles..
NOW, THEREFORE,
The Board of Directors and Members of the Seattle EV Association,
strongly urge passage of House Bill 1820, which when passed will
change local NEV Regulations to allow them to attain speeds of 30 to 35
miles per hour on appropriate streets and arterials, but limit their
use to local and state controlled streets, and their exclusion from
Federal Highways will remain.. We further more urge citizens to contact
their Local and state legislators and individually urge passage of HB 1820.
The total Bill, and all the facts behind it can be seen at the Wa Gov.
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?bill=1820&year=2007
See you there !!!!
If you plan on going down on your OWN, call MC Electric for further
Details on the exact building, and room number for the 3:30 pm hearing.
(206) 328 1750
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
** Reply to message from "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Fri, 9 Feb
2007 09:53:35 -0800
> Keep up the good work -- I very much like this sort of through-the-road
> hybrid, and if I do a four-wheeled EV, this has strong consideration.
The problem with this design is the transmission. You cannot slip it into
neutral and drive around for long. The countershaft gear slings grease onto
vital bearing surfaces while the engine is running. If the engine is not
running, the grease is not being slung and those bearing surfaces will soon
overheat.
Dale Curren
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Daryl, what is the voltage that the Soneil charger
> applies to a fully charged battery? It sound like it
> does *not* shut off, but keeps charging indefinitely
> at some "float" voltage? What is the float voltage?
Lee you are correct based on the measurements I have
taken with the Soneil 1206cc 3 amp chargers.
Twelve of these are in service in my Geo EV. They are
finish charging Deka 9A31 AGMs (100ah @C/20) after the
onboard Russco charges the pack to 90-plus percent.
It is noted that what the Soneils actually do is a
little different then what the Soneil tech literature
says they do.
Once the Soneils drop into float stage, the initial
voltage is 13.5-13.6v. But then over a period of up to
6 hours, the voltage slowly rises to 13.9v where it
plateaus.
During that same period, a kill-a-watt p3 power meter
at the 110v wall outlet indicates that the 12 Soneils
together initially draw 2.3 amps, dropping to a
plateau of 0.7 amps.
> Float charging works well when you only expect the
> battery to last 2-3 years. The constant charging
> causes the battery to slowly lose water, which
> strengthens the acid, until it begins corroding the
> lead plates themselves (grid corrosion). The battery
> fails from excessive internal resistance and loss of
> water.
During these colder months I'll typically let the
Soneils float the pack for at least a couple hours but
not past the voltage and current plateaus mentioned
above. That's partly based on the temp and voltage
specs. for these batts. I feel during this period the
Soneils are topping up the batts without venting them.
During the warmer months here in Portland, the period
spent on float each cycle will be cut back.
> Finally, the correct float voltage depends on the
> type of battery, its age, and condition. Usually,
> the charger blindly applies one specific voltage
> that is assumed to be correct for all batteries for
> all time. That is not the case.
Yes it is a good idea to check the tech specs. of the
batts and chargers to ensure they will be a reasonably
good match.
The Soneils are working well in this EV application so
far. The Geo is approaching 80 cycles and 1000 miles.
While there was a post last year of some failures in
one application, my feeling is that may have been a
Florida heat/sunlight/humidity issue and not a
vibration issue. Soneils are used in scooter
applications where the shock and vibration they are
exposed to is *way* more then in a car/truck size
on-road EV.
Regards,
Mark Freidberg
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is a nifty half page article about the KillaCycle with a great
picture on page 33 of the latest Hot Rod Magazine (April 2007).
Of course, as usual, they got a few things confused, but it is a
very positive and enthusiastic article. They also didn't mention the
KillaCycle crew by name, so I will here: Steve Ciciora, Derek Barger,
Scot Colburn, and Scotty Pollacheck.
I'll bet that Dave Stensland and John Bryan will get a special laugh
out of the reference to "Chair Monkeys." :-)
I'm also blown away by the fantastic write-up by Chip Gribben on the
NEDRA web site. Chip certainly got the facts right and put up a bunch
of great photos of the KillaCycle. (Where are the chair monkeys?)
http://www.nedra.com and http://www.nedra.com/pg_killacycle.html
Thank you Chip!
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think I've come up with the solution, which is to use an overrun
clutch on the output from the electric motor.
This is what is used on bicycles, which allows the wheel to spin faster
than the pedals. So under ICE power at 70mph, the electric motor can be
idle while the rear wheel is spinning at 1500rpm.
This will allow a much higher gear ratio for better take-off at lower
speeds.
So my improved design is to use two chain/belt drives, use a 3:1 drive
going straight down below the floor, connect that to the overrun clutch
with another 3:1 gear to the rear wheel. So I get a 9:1 gear, reduce
the size of the wheel sprocket for better ground clearance, and put most
of the chain parts under the floor.
Now I just need to find an overrun clutch that can handle the torque,
they are used for PTO equipment, for example,
http://item.express.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ExpressItem&item=300075857414
looks like an easy off-the-shelf solution if it can handle the torque.
Jack
Jack Murray wrote:
Hi Alan, I have looked at the polychain GT belts and pulleys, they are
better suited to the higher torque than the smaller toothed belt I
tried. But they are relatively expensive parts, about $500 for the
setup. The chain setup was about $100. But once I'm satisfied with
everything else working, I may spend the money to try the better belts.
Having just looked at the motorcycle stuff, it would be cool to use a
complete motorcycle transmission with the belt drive. That way it can be
put into neutral so the electric motor doesn't spin while on the
freeway. The difficulty with the fixed pulley is that the current 5:1
gearing already requires a big diameter on the wheel side, is not really
quite enough low gear yet too much for top speed, I think at 70mph, the
wheel is turning about 1500rpm, that is 7500 rpm at the motor, really
pushing it for an 8" ADC. But again, a motorcycle trans is not cheap.
Realize that I'm not doing just a one-off, my goal is to do many of
these conversions so I prefer to be able to use new parts when that time
comes, I wouldn't want to design-in having to source cheap used parts.
Jack
Alan Brinkman wrote:
Jack,
Regarding the noisy chain drive / slipping belt drive, have you looked
at the drive belt that Harley Davidson and Buell motorcycles use? The
final drive belt to the rear wheel is strong, has large teeth that when
sufficiently tight will not slip, is available in a few different
lengths and widths, and can be picked up on E-bay along with rear
pulleys. Be careful not to get this confused with the primary drive
belt between the motor and transmission as the teeth size, width and
length are much different. I think this belt is used for about 100hp
before moving to chain drive for higher horsepower gas motors. I am
building an electric motorcycle using a Harley belt and pulley from
E-bay, and a smaller pulley for the motor with a QD style bushing from
the local bearing house. The smaller pulley was hard to find surplus at
a good price, and they are costly new. The pulley from a Harley
transmission is hard to mate to a motor shaft so I went the other route.
I hope to get my page posted soon to the EV album to have something to
show.
Alan Brinkman
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 8:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Speaking of Hybrids
I think a good way to do a plug-in hybrid is to take a FWD car, and
add
an electric motor to drive the rear wheels.
Then you can use the electric motor around town, and use the gas motor
on the freeway.
I've been building just such a car, I've converted one rear wheel into
a
driven wheel powered by an electric motor.
However, I'm having trouble and could use some suggestions. I
originally used a 1" wide belt drive to power the wheel, but the belt
would
slip when enough torque was applied to move the car. So I've
changed it to use a chain drive. The problem now is the chain
makes a huge amount of noise! more noise than ICE does.
Has anyone else done a chain or belt drive setup? Are there chain
drives that are not so noisy? Or belts that can handle a lot of
torque.
A 3" wide belt?
I'm considering trying the snowmobile CVT setup, but its a little
expensive for this project.
Thanks,
Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did they happen to mention the sport of electric drag racing or NEDRA in the
article?
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dube" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:22 AM
Subject: KillaCycle featured in Hot Rod magazine, NEDRA website
There is a nifty half page article about the KillaCycle with a great
picture on page 33 of the latest Hot Rod Magazine (April 2007).
Of course, as usual, they got a few things confused, but it is a very
positive and enthusiastic article. They also didn't mention the KillaCycle
crew by name, so I will here: Steve Ciciora, Derek Barger, Scot Colburn,
and Scotty Pollacheck.
I'll bet that Dave Stensland and John Bryan will get a special laugh out
of the reference to "Chair Monkeys." :-)
I'm also blown away by the fantastic write-up by Chip Gribben on the NEDRA
web site. Chip certainly got the facts right and put up a bunch of great
photos of the KillaCycle. (Where are the chair monkeys?)
http://www.nedra.com and http://www.nedra.com/pg_killacycle.html
Thank you Chip!
Bill Dube'
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bill, I hope you can help or anyone else on the list.
I finally got hold of enough A123 cells to put together a small pack. (many
Dewalt packs) In the past you mentioned it took a very expensive spot welder
to assemble the Killacycle pack.
What kind of problems would be caused by a standard spot welder with small
tips. Do you have a source for the tabs that protect the vent hole. Is there
an alternative you might suggest, something cheaper.
I don't want to solder onto the batteries althought the RC guys say it works
just fine.
Pack is a 4x6x10. I want to build two of these 1.8kwh packs.
The EZESport bike is getting A123 batteries and a Zilla 1K upgrade. The goal
is to be able to keep up around town with other 600cc ICE sports bike with a 20
to 30 mile range.
EZESport
Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 06:08 PM 1/4/2007, you wrote:
>Nice site Bill.
>
> I was looking at nice big pictures of the A123 pack.
Say thanks to Dave Stensland. The three levels of resolution are
marvelous. He found a super host (Dreamhost) that gives a fantastic
deal on disk space and bandwidth, so I can include lots of
high-resolution pictures.
>It looks like the pack is hard welded in 40 cell blocks of 5 cells x
>8 strings and 20 blocks in series.
What is in the picture is, indeed 5x8x20. We added two more
layers in a small separate enclosure later. Within the layers, the
cells are tab welded together. However, each layer is connected via
rivets to the next layer. This allows a layer to be replaced at the track.
I guess since we designed the pack to allow quick layer
replacement might be why haven't needed to replace a single one of
the 880 A123 Systems cells. :^)
>
> How are you charging the pack and did you add a BMS for only each
> block rather than individual cells?
Steve Ciciora designed the BMS so that a module is assigned
to each block (layer) of cells. Each group of parallel cells is
voltage monitored and controlled. The temperature of each block is monitored.
Again, it is really great to be able to show off what the
KillaCycle team has accomplished and to share the lessons learned
with the EV community. My hat is off to Dave Stensland for doing a
great job on the new KillaCycle web site.
Bill Dube'
---------------------------------
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Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They didn't mention NEDRA specifically in this small article, but
they did a big spread about NEDRA in the previous issue, so the Hot
Rod readers should be already well aware of NEDRA.
Bill Dube'
At 12:32 PM 2/10/2007, you wrote:
Did they happen to mention the sport of electric drag racing or
NEDRA in the article?
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Dube" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:22 AM
Subject: KillaCycle featured in Hot Rod magazine, NEDRA website
There is a nifty half page article about the KillaCycle with a
great picture on page 33 of the latest Hot Rod Magazine (April 2007).
Of course, as usual, they got a few things confused, but it is a
very positive and enthusiastic article. They also didn't mention
the KillaCycle crew by name, so I will here: Steve Ciciora, Derek
Barger, Scot Colburn, and Scotty Pollacheck.
I'll bet that Dave Stensland and John Bryan will get a special
laugh out of the reference to "Chair Monkeys." :-)
I'm also blown away by the fantastic write-up by Chip Gribben on
the NEDRA web site. Chip certainly got the facts right and put up a
bunch of great photos of the KillaCycle. (Where are the chair monkeys?)
http://www.nedra.com and http://www.nedra.com/pg_killacycle.html
Thank you Chip!
Bill Dube'
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ray,
You didn't say were you were located. If you are near
Denver, contact me and maybe we can help you get these welded together.
Bill Dube'
At 12:41 PM 2/10/2007, you wrote:
Hi Bill, I hope you can help or anyone else on the list.
I finally got hold of enough A123 cells to put together a small
pack. (many Dewalt packs) In the past you mentioned it took a
very expensive spot welder to assemble the Killacycle pack.
What kind of problems would be caused by a standard spot welder
with small tips. Do you have a source for the tabs that protect
the vent hole. Is there an alternative you might suggest, something cheaper.
I don't want to solder onto the batteries althought the RC guys
say it works just fine.
Pack is a 4x6x10. I want to build two of these 1.8kwh packs.
The EZESport bike is getting A123 batteries and a Zilla 1K
upgrade. The goal is to be able to keep up around town with other
600cc ICE sports bike with a 20 to 30 mile range.
EZESport
Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 06:08 PM 1/4/2007, you wrote:
>Nice site Bill.
>
> I was looking at nice big pictures of the A123 pack.
Say thanks to Dave Stensland. The three levels of resolution are
marvelous. He found a super host (Dreamhost) that gives a fantastic
deal on disk space and bandwidth, so I can include lots of
high-resolution pictures.
>It looks like the pack is hard welded in 40 cell blocks of 5 cells x
>8 strings and 20 blocks in series.
What is in the picture is, indeed 5x8x20. We added two more
layers in a small separate enclosure later. Within the layers, the
cells are tab welded together. However, each layer is connected via
rivets to the next layer. This allows a layer to be replaced at the track.
I guess since we designed the pack to allow quick layer
replacement might be why haven't needed to replace a single one of
the 880 A123 Systems cells. :^)
>
> How are you charging the pack and did you add a BMS for only each
> block rather than individual cells?
Steve Ciciora designed the BMS so that a module is assigned
to each block (layer) of cells. Each group of parallel cells is
voltage monitored and controlled. The temperature of each block is monitored.
Again, it is really great to be able to show off what the
KillaCycle team has accomplished and to share the lessons learned
with the EV community. My hat is off to Dave Stensland for doing a
great job on the new KillaCycle web site.
Bill Dube'
---------------------------------
Never Miss an Email
Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ray or Bill,
GoWheel.com and crew will help any way we can too.
We're in Orange County, California
Gary, Ryan, Jay, Randy, Ed, Robert, Don, Lou, & crew
-------------------------------
--- Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ray,
> You didn't say were you were located. If
> you are near
> Denver, contact me and maybe we can help you get
> these welded together.
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 12:41 PM 2/10/2007, you wrote:
> Hi Bill, I hope you can help or anyone else on
> the list.
> I finally got hold of enough A123 cells to put
> together a small
> > pack. (many Dewalt packs) In the past you
> mentioned it took a
> > very expensive spot welder to assemble the
> Killacycle pack.
> What kind of problems would be caused by a
> standard spot welder
> with small tips. Do you have a source for the
> tabs that protect
> the vent hole. Is there an alternative you might
> suggest, something cheaper.
> I don't want to solder onto the batteries
> althought the RC guys say it works just fine.
> Pack is a 4x6x10. I want to build two of these
> 1.8kwh packs.
> The EZESport bike is getting A123 batteries and
> a Zilla 1K
> upgrade. The goal is to be able to keep up around
> town with other
> 600cc ICE sports bike with a 20 to 30 mile range.
> EZESport
____________________________________________________________________________________
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of the projects on my back burner uses something like this. To solve
the problem with transmission lubrication, I'm planning on using locking
hubs from a 4WD front end.
>
>> Keep up the good work -- I very much like this sort of through-the-road
>> hybrid, and if I do a four-wheeled EV, this has strong consideration.
>
> The problem with this design is the transmission. You cannot slip it into
> neutral and drive around for long. The countershaft gear slings grease
> onto
> vital bearing surfaces while the engine is running. If the engine is not
> running, the grease is not being slung and those bearing surfaces will
> soon
> overheat.
>
> Dale Curren
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FWIW Electro-Welded Tubing (or whatever its called) has come a long way
recently. I believe the new stuff is as strong as the seemless tubing.
The drive shaft on my F-250 superduty appears to be welded tubing, at
least it has a seam. In fact it looks just like muffler tubing.
Also, as Roland points out, they don't seem to be that concerned about
balancing, since it has several labels/stickers on it.
> It is better and easily to make up the tubular axles. You can do it your
> self. Do not need a lathe or balancing machine as you would on solid
> axles.
>
> Just cut the tubes to the correct length, and you can get U-joints that
> slide in tight. Just weld them up and 99.9 percent of the time, they do
> not
> need any balancing if you have a nice smooth weld bead. The axles do not
> turn that high rpm anyway. My maximum rpm on my axles in final gear of
> 5.57:1 at a motor rpm of 6000 rpm is 1080 rpm at 92 mph.
>
> Use a good tubing design for drive lines. There is no welded seam in them.
> I normally have to pick them up from a machine shop that does this type of
> work.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:19 AM
> Subject: Re: Speaking of Hybrids
>
>
>> >> Could you clarify this please? I've never seen a
>> >> rear wheel with a hollow shaft
>>
>> Roland has it right; 1963-1980's Corvettes and 1665-69 Corvairs have
>> large
>> diameter pipe as their rear axle, with universal joints at the inner and
>> outer ends. They look just like a typical front-engine rear-drive
>> vehicle's drive shaft.
>>
>> We are working on this very problem in our Sunrise. We decided to use a
>> 1989-97 Ford Thunderbird rear end. These cars have fully independent
>> rear
>> suspension, with everything mounted to a subframe that is easily
>> removed.
>> The differential mounts to the subframe. Axles with universal joints
>> connect each side to the wheels. Upper and lower wishbones run from the
>> differential to the wheel, with a coil spring.
>>
>> The problem is that we have to narrow the track about 10". That means
>> cutting those solid axles, shortening them, and welding them back
>> together. We well may go to tubular axles to make this easier/stronger.
>>
>> BTW, the first prototype will be a DC system (to see how the Sunrise
>> performs with a simpler cheaper drive system). We have a WarP 9" motor
>> on
>> order. The differential is being changed to 5.14:1 gears. It will be
>> flipped upside down, and use dry sump lubrication to reduce losses. The
>> motor will mount directly to it through a spider coupler (no clutch or
>> transmission).
>>
>> We're leaving room for even a WarP 11" motor, and the T'bird
>> differential
>> has huge 8.9" gears, so if someone wants to go drag racing, this setup
>> should be strong enough to do it!
>> --
>> Lee Hart
>>
>>
>
>
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