EV digest 6404

Sun, 11 Feb 2007 11:15:58 -0800 

                            EV Digest 6404

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
        by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
        by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Battery testing.
        by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Battery testing.
        by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Affordable Solar?
        by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Soneil Chargers
        by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Battery testing.
        by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Affordable Solar?
        by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) NEDRA to be in National Dragster
        by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Soneil Chargers
        by Darryl McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Lead acid golf cart batteries, GC2 size
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) RE: soneil chargers
        by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: soneil chargers
        by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: FW: Personal Electric Transport
        by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) RE: soneil chargers
        by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Electric Motorcycle for sale on Whidbey Island, WA!
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Non-Article 625 Charge Port on Tesla?
        by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Non-Article 625 Charge Port on Tesla?
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Non-Article 625 Charge Port on Tesla?
        by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Newbie: looking for information to get started on a Dodge Neon ICE--->EV 
conversion - LONG
        by Michael L Werth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Repairing lead-acid batteries
        by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: Soneil Chargers
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) Re: Non-Article 625 Charge Port on Tesla?
        by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) Re: Non-Article 625 Charge Port on Tesla?
        by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- 
The overrun clutch is a good idea but there might be enough friction that it 
would tend to drive the motor anyway; you may need a shaft brake.  Is there any 
way to make an electric clutch work?

FWIW, someone in the original Craig Vetter mileage competition used a Suzuki 
starter motor overrun unit on the rear wheel of their m-cycle.  They could shut 
the throttle on downhills w/o losing momentum.


----- Original Message ----
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 1:20:22 PM
Subject: Re: Speaking of Hybrids

I think I've come up with the solution, which is to use an overrun 
clutch on the output from the electric motor.
This is what is used on bicycles, which allows the wheel to spin faster 
than the pedals.  So under ICE power at 70mph, the electric motor can be 
  idle while the rear wheel is spinning at 1500rpm.
This will allow a much higher gear ratio for better take-off at lower 
speeds.

So my improved design is to use two chain/belt drives, use a 3:1 drive 
going straight down below the floor, connect that to the overrun clutch 
with another 3:1 gear to the rear wheel.  So I get a 9:1 gear, reduce 
the size of the wheel sprocket for better ground clearance, and put most 
of the chain parts under the floor.

Now I just need to find an overrun clutch that can handle the torque,
they are used for PTO equipment, for example,
http://item.express.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ExpressItem&item=300075857414
looks like an easy off-the-shelf solution if it can handle the torque.

Jack

Jack Murray wrote:
> Hi Alan, I have looked at the polychain GT belts and pulleys, they are 
> better suited to the higher torque than the smaller toothed belt I 
> tried.  But they are relatively expensive parts, about $500 for the 
> setup.  The chain setup was about $100.  But once I'm satisfied with 
> everything else working, I may spend the money to try the better belts.
> 
> Having just looked at the motorcycle stuff, it would be cool to use a 
> complete motorcycle transmission with the belt drive. That way it can be 
> put into neutral so the electric motor doesn't spin while on the 
> freeway.  The difficulty with the fixed pulley is that the current 5:1 
> gearing already requires a big diameter on the wheel side, is not really 
> quite enough low gear yet too much for top speed, I think at 70mph, the 
> wheel is turning about 1500rpm, that is 7500 rpm at the motor, really 
> pushing it for an 8" ADC.  But again, a motorcycle trans is not cheap.
> 
> Realize that I'm not doing just a one-off, my goal is to do many of 
> these conversions so I prefer to be able to use new parts when that time 
> comes, I wouldn't want to design-in having to source cheap used parts.
> 
> Jack
> 
> Alan Brinkman wrote:
> 
>> Jack,
>>
>> Regarding the noisy chain drive / slipping belt drive, have you looked
>> at the drive belt that Harley Davidson and Buell motorcycles use?  The
>> final drive belt to the rear wheel is strong, has large teeth that when
>> sufficiently tight will not slip, is available in a few different
>> lengths and widths, and can be picked up on E-bay along with rear
>> pulleys.  Be careful not to get this confused with the primary drive
>> belt between the motor and transmission as the teeth size, width and
>> length are much different.  I think this belt is used for about 100hp
>> before moving to chain drive for higher horsepower gas motors.  I am
>> building an electric motorcycle using a Harley belt and pulley from
>> E-bay, and a smaller pulley for the motor with a QD style bushing from
>> the local bearing house.  The smaller pulley was hard to find surplus at
>> a good price, and they are costly new.  The pulley from a Harley
>> transmission is hard to mate to a motor shaft so I went the other route.
>> I hope to get my page posted soon to the EV album to have something to
>> show.
>>
>> Alan Brinkman
>>
>>
>>>> Behalf Of Jack Murray
>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 8:38 PM
>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>> Subject: Speaking of Hybrids
>>>>
>>>> I think a good way to do a plug-in hybrid is to take a FWD car, and
>>>
>>>
>>> add
>>>
>>>> an electric motor to drive the rear wheels.
>>>> Then you can use the electric motor around town, and use the gas motor
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> on the freeway.
>>>>
>>>> I've been building just such a car, I've converted one rear wheel into
>>>
>>>
>>> a
>>>
>>>
>>>> driven wheel powered by an electric motor.
>>>> However, I'm having trouble and could use some suggestions.  I 
>>>> originally used a 1" wide belt drive to power the wheel, but the belt
>>>> would
>>>> slip when enough torque was applied to move the car.  So I've 
>>>> changed it to use a chain drive.  The problem now is the chain
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> makes a huge amount of noise!  more noise than ICE does.
>>>> Has anyone else done a chain or belt drive setup?   Are there chain 
>>>> drives that are not so noisy?  Or belts that can handle a lot of
>>>
>>>
>>> torque.
>>>
>>>
>>>> A 3" wide belt?
>>>> I'm considering trying the snowmobile CVT setup, but its a little 
>>>> expensive for this project.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Jack
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
> 
> 








 
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I wouldn't think it would be a problem, it takes some amount of torque to get the brushed motor to turn, anyone with experience using an overrun clutch, I'd like to hear, but if an issue, it is quite simple to brake the electric motor using itself. 
Jack

Frank John wrote:

The overrun clutch is a good idea but there might be enough friction that it 
would tend to drive the motor anyway; you may need a shaft brake.  Is there any 
way to make an electric clutch work?

FWIW, someone in the original Craig Vetter mileage competition used a Suzuki 
starter motor overrun unit on the rear wheel of their m-cycle.  They could shut 
the throttle on downhills w/o losing momentum.


----- Original Message ----
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 1:20:22 PM
Subject: Re: Speaking of Hybrids
I think I've come up with the solution, which is to use an overrun clutch on the output from the electric motor. This is what is used on bicycles, which allows the wheel to spin faster than the pedals. So under ICE power at 70mph, the electric motor can be idle while the rear wheel is spinning at 1500rpm. This will allow a much higher gear ratio for better take-off at lower speeds.
So my improved design is to use two chain/belt drives, use a 3:1 drive going straight down below the floor, connect that to the overrun clutch with another 3:1 gear to the rear wheel. So I get a 9:1 gear, reduce the size of the wheel sprocket for better ground clearance, and put most of the chain parts under the floor. 

Now I just need to find an overrun clutch that can handle the torque,
they are used for PTO equipment, for example,
http://item.express.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ExpressItem&item=300075857414
looks like an easy off-the-shelf solution if it can handle the torque.

Jack

Jack Murray wrote:
Hi Alan, I have looked at the polychain GT belts and pulleys, they are better suited to the higher torque than the smaller toothed belt I tried. But they are relatively expensive parts, about $500 for the setup. The chain setup was about $100. But once I'm satisfied with everything else working, I may spend the money to try the better belts.
Having just looked at the motorcycle stuff, it would be cool to use a complete motorcycle transmission with the belt drive. That way it can be put into neutral so the electric motor doesn't spin while on the freeway. The difficulty with the fixed pulley is that the current 5:1 gearing already requires a big diameter on the wheel side, is not really quite enough low gear yet too much for top speed, I think at 70mph, the wheel is turning about 1500rpm, that is 7500 rpm at the motor, really pushing it for an 8" ADC. But again, a motorcycle trans is not cheap.
Realize that I'm not doing just a one-off, my goal is to do many of these conversions so I prefer to be able to use new parts when that time comes, I wouldn't want to design-in having to source cheap used parts. 

Jack

Alan Brinkman wrote:



Jack,

Regarding the noisy chain drive / slipping belt drive, have you looked
at the drive belt that Harley Davidson and Buell motorcycles use?  The
final drive belt to the rear wheel is strong, has large teeth that when
sufficiently tight will not slip, is available in a few different
lengths and widths, and can be picked up on E-bay along with rear
pulleys.  Be careful not to get this confused with the primary drive
belt between the motor and transmission as the teeth size, width and
length are much different.  I think this belt is used for about 100hp
before moving to chain drive for higher horsepower gas motors.  I am
building an electric motorcycle using a Harley belt and pulley from
E-bay, and a smaller pulley for the motor with a QD style bushing from
the local bearing house.  The smaller pulley was hard to find surplus at
a good price, and they are costly new.  The pulley from a Harley
transmission is hard to mate to a motor shaft so I went the other route.
I hope to get my page posted soon to the EV album to have something to
show.

Alan Brinkman




Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 8:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Speaking of Hybrids

I think a good way to do a plug-in hybrid is to take a FWD car, and



add



an electric motor to drive the rear wheels.
Then you can use the electric motor around town, and use the gas motor





on the freeway.

I've been building just such a car, I've converted one rear wheel into



a




driven wheel powered by an electric motor.
However, I'm having trouble and could use some suggestions. I originally used a 1" wide belt drive to power the wheel, but the belt 
would
slip when enough torque was applied to move the car. So I've changed it to use a chain drive. The problem now is the chain 




makes a huge amount of noise!  more noise than ICE does.
Has anyone else done a chain or belt drive setup? Are there chain drives that are not so noisy? Or belts that can handle a lot of 


torque.




A 3" wide belt?
I'm considering trying the snowmobile CVT setup, but its a little expensive for this project. 

Thanks,
Jack
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I measured the specific gravity of my batteries today.  Found three of the 17 
of the batteries with all three cells at 1.275 and on three of the rest of the 
batteries one cell at 1.275 one at 1.150 and one at 1.200.  Looks like I will 
have to get ahold of Interstate Monday and see what they will do for me.

The batteries were put in use March 3rd of 2006 so not quite a year old.

I thought I was getting a little less performance out the the system lately.  
Maybe this is why.

Tom

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On 10 Feb 2007 at 17:28, Tom Carpenter wrote:

> Looks like I will
> have to get ahold of Interstate Monday and see what they will do for me.

I'm concerned about that 1.15 cell, but a nice, long, slow equalization 
might be all you really need.  Have you been performing it regularly?  Not 
on every charge, but once every week or two is good.  

You should be checking SG routinely.  That's one of the big advantages of 
flooded batteries over VRR types - you can use a hydrometer to better see 
what's really going on, and determine whether / when your charge regimen 
needs alteration.


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Deal or no deal?

http://renu.citizenre.com/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On Feb 9, 2007, at 8:39 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
Daryl, what is the voltage that the Soneil charger applies to a fully charged battery? It sound like it does *not* shut off, but keeps charging indefinitely at some "float" voltage? What is the float voltage?
Float charging works well when you only expect the battery to last 2-3 years. The constant charging causes the battery to slowly lose water, which strengthens the acid, until it begins corroding the lead plates themselves (grid corrosion). The battery fails from excessive internal resistance and loss of water.
He sells a number of Soneil chargers but I only looked at the specs of the 1212. It seems to be a version of the "little blinking charger." The specs say it turns completely off at 14.4 volts and back on at 13.8 volts. I don't know what an AGM will think about this over time.
I have a Cliplight little blinking charger that turns off at 14.2 and on at 13.6 volts. After this charger has been left on an Optima for about 24 hours after the first blink it is only on for a very quick blink about once per minute (well under 1% of the time.) 

Paul "neon" G.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I thought the zivan charger is supposed to give you the equalization charge at the end of the regular charge.
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: Battery testing.



On 10 Feb 2007 at 17:28, Tom Carpenter wrote:


Looks like I will
have to get ahold of Interstate Monday and see what they will do for me.


I'm concerned about that 1.15 cell, but a nice, long, slow equalization
might be all you really need.  Have you been performing it regularly?  Not
on every charge, but once every week or two is good.

You should be checking SG routinely.  That's one of the big advantages of
flooded batteries over VRR types - you can use a hydrometer to better see
what's really going on, and determine whether / when your charge regimen
needs alteration.


David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator

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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode?  See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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--- Begin Message --- 
On 10 Feb 2007 at 17:01, Ryan Stotts wrote:

> Deal or no deal?

Interesting, but the EVDL isn't really the place to have an alternative 
energy discussion.  Please post this material on the AE list (also on SJSU) 
instead.

Thanks.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
> The overrun clutch is a good idea but there might be enough friction that
> it would tend to drive the motor anyway; you may need a shaft brake.  Is
> there any way to make an electric clutch work?

Electric motors have built in shaft brakes.  Just short the windings.



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legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
>> The overrun clutch is a good idea but there might be enough friction that
>> it would tend to drive the motor anyway; you may need a shaft brake.  Is
>> there any way to make an electric clutch work?

From: Peter VanDerWal
>Electric motors have built in shaft brakes.  Just short the windings.

Or. if the motor's freewheeling torque is so low that it turns even with the 
overrun clutch, then it's probably low enough to ignore it anyway.
--
Lee Hart

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
>>> The overrun clutch is a good idea but there might be enough friction
>>> that
>>> it would tend to drive the motor anyway; you may need a shaft brake.
>>> Is
>>> there any way to make an electric clutch work?
>
> From: Peter VanDerWal
>>Electric motors have built in shaft brakes.  Just short the windings.
>
> Or. if the motor's freewheeling torque is so low that it turns even with
> the overrun clutch, then it's probably low enough to ignore it anyway.

I believe the main concern in the original post was over-reving the
electric motor.  I think that this is unlikely unless something is wrong
with the clutch, but it doesn't hurt anything to be sure.

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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Starting in issue number 6 of National Dragster, the NHRA's premiere weekly publication, will be an advertisement for the National Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA). This is ad will be coming out February 23rd and will be running for the following seven weeks. It will also be shown on the NHRA website in their Drag Mart Classifieds section under miscellaneous: http://www.nhra.com/Classifieds/dragmart/index.html This ad to be in force in conjunction with the article coming out in less than three weeks in the largest automotive publication in the world with 10.2 million readers. That being Car and Driver. There will be a four page article in the April edition. 

Roderick Wilde
Marketing Director
National Electric Drag Racing Association
www.nedra.com 


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--- Begin Message --- 
Hi Lee (and all),
the voltage applied to a fully charged battery by the Soneil depends on the model. Not just the nominal voltage, but specific models have different finishing charge voltages. These range from 14.3 to 14.7 volts for a 12-volt nominal lead-acid battery. 

You can link to the specs by model from this page on my Web site:
http://www.econogics.com/Soneil/prodlist.htm
The chargers do shut off, and then monitor the battery voltage. When the voltage sinks down to a set-point (for example, on the 1212SR, it is 13.8 volts). When the battery drops to this voltage, the charger turns on again until the battery reaches 14.4 volts. I think this is clearer if you look at page 7 of the pdf file for the 1212SR specs. 
http://www.soneil.com/Completesets/1212SR(rev09).14-Sep-04.pdf
The Soneils are not temperature-compensated. I think there is only so much you get for a given price. They assume room temperature. This works for those of us that use thermal management on our batteries to hit the sweet spot trading off capacity for longevity.
I don't claim the Soneils are the be-and and end-all. I think they are a competent 3-stage, moderately intelligent charger in a compact, lightweight form factor at an affordable price. I have used a lot of chargers for EVs over the years, and these were the first I encountered that I felt were plug in and forget at a reasonable price. I was impressed enough with the first one I bought that I became a distributor, because I wanted to share with other EV owners. Those I have sold to appear to be satisfied, and have come back for more for subsequent projects.
I agree with your comments on float chargers. I think of them as slow cookers for batteries. Many of the other chargers I have encountered are fast cookers. Because the Soneils cycle on and off automatically based on battery voltage, one charger can be both the main duty (daily) charger, and the maintenance charger. 

Darryl McMahon

Lee Hart wrote:
(my original)
> >Disclosure:  I am a distributor for Soneil chargers.
> >
> >You can leave the Soneil chargers hooked up indefinitely.  You can do
> >without regulators, assuming the batteries are initially fairly well
> >balanced. The charger is intelligent, and will not overcharge the
> >batteries.  The finishing voltage is low enough that it will not damage
> >even AGM batteries. They are designed specifically for this application. 

(Lee's post starts here)
Daryl, what is the voltage that the Soneil charger applies to a fully charged battery? It sound like it does *not* shut off, but keeps charging indefinitely at some "float" voltage? What is the float voltage?
Float charging works well when you only expect the battery to last 2-3 years. The constant charging causes the battery to slowly lose water, which strengthens the acid, until it begins corroding the lead plates themselves (grid corrosion). The battery fails from excessive internal resistance and loss of water.
Another problem with float chargers is that most are not temperature compensated. The correct float voltage varies with temperature (lower as temperature rises).
Finally, the correct float voltage depends on the type of battery, its age, and condition. Usually, the charger blindly applies one specific voltage that is assumed to be correct for all batteries for all time. That is not the case.
AGMs have such a low self-discharge rate that there is no reason to leave them on a float charger. Just charge them normally, and turn the charger *completely off*. Charge them again every 3-12 months, depending on the storage temperature. 
--
Lee Hart

--
Darryl McMahon
It's your planet.  If you won't look after it, who will?

The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (now in print and eBook)
http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I just stopped by Sam's Club today and noticed
a pretty good sized golf cart battery priced at $61.
I've seen posts lately about high battery cost and
just wondered if this trend has changed. A GC2 appears
to be a 220 Amp*hr battery at approximately 68 lbs, so
$61 seems like a good deal?

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- well actually i would need 6 because im planning on it being a 72 volt system. But charging the batterys individualy is still a good idea but thats 6 plugs, is there anyway i could combine it into 1 or 2 plugs? 



From: "Alan Brinkman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: soneil chargers
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 17:47:31 -0800

Tim,

Have you considered the 12 volt 1.5 amp trickle chargers that shut off
automatically?  I am thinking about the Schumacher SE-1-12S, and there
are other makes of basically the same thing.  I have used one for years
attached to a 12 volt battery to power an on demand water pump for
drinking water.  It charges the battery until charged, then shuts off,
with two leds that tell you the status.  One 12 volt charger per
battery, 3 in your case, and you are done.  You do not have to worry
about the batteries getting an equal charge as each charger takes care
of one battery.  I have one in the garage, and one at my father-in-laws
house that I would like to borrow back.  He had battery troubles, liked
the charger, and now.......


Alan Brinkman


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Gamber
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2007 7:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: soneil chargers

i recently saw a 36 volt 4.5 amp charger on the internet and it said
that
you could leave it hooked up indefinetly and it would not overcharge
your
batteries. Would this also be true for AGMs because thats what i was
thinking of usng it for. Do i still  need regulators, or could i do
without?

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On Sat, Feb 10, 2007 at 10:23:55PM -0700, Tim Gamber wrote:
> well actually i would need 6 because im planning on it being a 72 volt 
> system. But charging the batterys individualy is still a good idea but 
> thats 6 plugs, is there anyway i could combine it into 1 or 2 plugs?

Use a power strip?

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
They are just up the road. I have seen their electrathon kits, so I'm
guessing this $3K car will be similar... a rolling frame for that price.
Also, if it's like his other designs, it won't qualify as a e-bike, w/o a
lot of changes to the design.

It'll be interesting to see how this goes. Locally, however, you need at
least the Gizmo's speed and range, and their specs don't cover that, yet.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2007 10:54 AM
Subject: Fwd: FW: Personal Electric Transport


>
> According to his design spec sheet, about $3,000.00
>
> http://blueskydsn.com/BugE_Design_Concept.htm  last line
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
At 10:23 PM 10/02/07 -0700, Tim wrote:
well actually i would need 6 because im planning on it being a 72 volt system. But charging the batterys individualy is still a good idea but thats 6 plugs, is there anyway i could combine it into 1 or 2 plugs? 

G'day Tim (and All)
There is a huge range of industrial plugs and sockets out there, at amperages of up to around 16A in relatively low mating force connections, and much bigger in higher forces. With isolated chargers you need n+1 (where n is the number of chargers) pins in the connector. What I don't like about this is making and breaking a connector possibly several times per day is a recepie for contact faliure, an one battery out of the pack fails to charge. As long as you are planning means to detect or display connection failiure (may be as simple as always checking the charger status, but how do you make certain that it is always?)
Since you are looking at low power chargers, is it not possible to have them on-board, permanently connected, and just be making and breaking the power in? Then you can charge anywhere, and if the connection fails you avoid the one-not-charged problem. 

Is your project on-line anywhere to have a look?

Regards

[Technik] James

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
http://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/mcy/276655704.html
--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....         
http://www.CasaDelGato.com

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--- Begin Message --- 
Mike Chancey writes:
> 
> Has anyone else noticed that the charge port on the Tesla is not one 
> of the two NEC Article 625 approved choices?  Unless there has been a 
> change I am unaware of, only the GM/Toyota inductive paddle and the 
> Avcon conductive connector used on the Ranger EVs and the Honda 
> EVPlus are approved for use.  Did Article 625 get modified or is 
> Tesla just blowing it off?

>From the Tesla "Safety" page:

        For starters, the plug on the charging unit only becomes live when
        it is properly connected to the car and both the charging unit and
        the car have talked and agreed the connection is safe to allow the
        electricity to flow through it. As a backup, the charging connector
        is designed such that you cannot touch any metal on the charging
        pins.

So they appear to have another system that meets the requirements.

Ralph

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--- Begin Message --- 
>> Has anyone else noticed that the charge port on the Tesla is not one 
>> of the two NEC Article 625 approved choices?

From: Ralph Merwin
>So they appear to have another system that meets the requirements.

They have enough money that I would think it likely that they are just going to 
do what GM, Ford, et. al. did --  ignore what went before, invent their own, 
and seek to make it the "standard".
--
The thing I like about standards is that there are so many to choose from.
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 5377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

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--- Begin Message --- 
Lee Hart writes:
> 
> They have enough money that I would think it likely that they are just
> going to do what GM, Ford, et. al. did --  ignore what went before,
> invent their own, and seek to make it the "standard".

In further reading on the Tesla site I found that they have licensed the
"Reductive Charging" patent from AC Propulsion, incorporating it into
the Tesla system.  So perhaps Tesla will use the Avcon system as well.

Ralph

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--- Begin Message ---
February 11, 2007
 
Dear EV Listserv:

I'm interested in doing an ICE--->EV conversion with my high school math students.  EVParts.com suggests that I do a Dodge Neon conversion, and I've been trying to get details from them about a KIT that has been developed?  I can acquire the car dirt cheap, so that seems like a good donor option, since we're "on a budget".  Can you tell me what model batteries I should get?  Can I use Ni-MH or Li-ion batteries in place of lead-acid in the kit? 
 
Questions I'm Hoping to Get Answers To:

 

GOAL: Dodge Neon ICE-->EV conversion.  Four door family car, child seats and all, with a 60 mile range traveling at a steady 60-70 mph.  Typical outdoor temperatures in Rhode Island are 25 degrees F in winter up to 90 degrees F in summer.

 

I heard that there is a KIT.  Has someone actually fully built one of these Neon conversions who could talk to me about the details and caveats, perhaps for a consulting fee?  What are the requirements to use this kit?

1) Model Years Dodge Neon 1995-2005?
2) Body Type Dodge Neon, 4 door or coupe?
3) Manual?
4) Which Trojan Batteries, and how many to get a range of 60 miles at 60-70 mph ?  Would any other batteries work with the kit for more range/lighter weight such as Ni-MH or Li-ion?
5) Part number and cost of the kit + lead time for delivery + estimated shipping cost ?
6) Is there an instruction manual for the Dodge Neon conversion?
7) Can I talk to anyone who has personally done the Dodge Neon conversion to ask about caveats to avoid/tips to make things easier?

After I get this information, I think my steps are:
1) Get the car, drop the motor, drop the exhaust, get it cleaned up, paint it, fix anything that needs to be repaired, and install heavier shocks for the extra battery weight?

2) What are the recommended parts to modify the suspension to compensate for the extra weight?
2) Order the KIT, get it installed, and weld in battery boxes.

3) Order the batteries, hook it all up, and charge it up.
4) Drive it.

 

Please let me know!  Thank you all very much for your time and consideration.
 
Sincerely,
 
Michael
 
Mr. Michael L. Werth
Mathematics Teacher Leader (Dept. Chair)
Hope Arts High School
RI's Premier Urban Fine & Performing Arts High School
office:  (401) 456-9161
fax:  (401) 456-1747

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--- Begin Message --- 
The July-December 1989 EVA Newsletter included
a 4-part series on lead acid batteries written by
Bill Glazier of British Columbia.  I believe he was a
manufacturer of PbA batteries at one time.
I have not been able to locate these newsletters on the web.
I have not found a better discussion of PbA battery problems.

John in Sylmar, CA PV EV

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
From: Darryl McMahon 
> Hi Lee (and all),
> the voltage applied to a fully charged battery by the Soneil depends
> on the model.  Not just the nominal voltage, but specific models have 
>different finishing charge voltages.  These range from 14.3 to 14.7 
>volts for a 12-volt nominal lead-acid battery.

OK; this range is prefectly reasonable.

>The chargers do shut off, and then monitor the battery voltage.  When 
>the voltage sinks down to a set-point (for example, on the 1212SR, it is 
>13.8 volts).  When the battery drops to this voltage, the charger turns 
>on again until the battery reaches 14.4 volts.

This is a problem. Even 13.8v is too high for a long-term float voltage. The 
average is somwhere between 13.8v and 14.4v for this charger; worse yet. This 
method is OK to leave on a battery for days, but not weeks or months.

> The Soneils are not temperature-compensated.  I think there is only so 
> much you get for a given price.  They assume room temperature.

Agreed. The Soneils appear to be good products, with better than average 
reliability and features.

>I agree with your comments on float chargers.  I think of them as slow 
>cookers for batteries.  Many of the other chargers I have encountered 
>are fast cookers.  Because the Soneils cycle on and off automatically 
>based on battery voltage, one charger can be both the main duty (daily) 
>charger, and the maintenance charger.

For an EV that is driven at least once a week, you really don't need a 
maintenance charger. The charger will do more damge (from overcharging) than 
you are preventing (from letting it sit around in a discharged state).

Even for long term storage, I'm not really a fan of maintenance chargers. They 
almost all tend to overcharge on a consistent basis. With floodeds, you can 
replace the lost water so this has little effect. But with sealed batteries, 
you are basically "slow cooking them", as you said.
--
Lee Hart

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--- Begin Message --- 
Despite what Tesla themselves say, the tesla drive train is the AC
Propulsion drivetrain, inverter, motor, reductive charger and all.
While they are trying to move away from ACP and produce their own, I
hear they are having quite a few problems doing so.





In further reading on the Tesla site I found that they have licensed the
"Reductive Charging" patent from AC Propulsion, incorporating it into
the Tesla system.  So perhaps Tesla will use the Avcon system as well.

Ralph





--
www.electric-lemon.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 10:42:22AM -0800, Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> Despite what Tesla themselves say, the tesla drive train is the AC
> Propulsion drivetrain, inverter, motor, reductive charger and all.

This is not really a bad thing. The AC Propulsion drivetrain seems to be
very good.

The mechanical portion of the drive train looks to be a Tesla original, along
with the battery management system.

--- End Message ---

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