EV Digest 6413
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Fabulous New Energy Source for EVs!
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Fabulous New Energy Source for EVs!
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: A/C Motor voltage?
by "MG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Fabulous New Energy Source for EVs!
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Chain Noise Re: Personal Electric Transport
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) aero dynimics
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: White Zombie History
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Soneil Chargers
by Darryl McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: aero dynimics
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: White Zombie History
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Chain Noise Re: Personal Electric Transport
by "Kip C. Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Free Publicity
by "Sean Korb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Nick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Chain Noise Re: Personal Electric Transport
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Chain Noise Re: Personal Electric Transport
by "Kip C. Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Cost to drive a EV
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: White Zombie History
by Tim Brehm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Personal Electric Transport
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) noob help
by Jay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Cost to drive a EV
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
hahahah LOL this is hilarious!!?!?!?!?!
From: Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Fabulous New Energy Source for EVs!
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 09:44:13 -0800
Wow! This is fantastic! Go to Google videos and search for "retro
encabulator". It's a 2 minute video. Man, we have GOT to have these for
our cars! Let's get together a group buy!
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
_________________________________________________________________
Free Alerts : Be smart - let your information find you !
http://alerts.live.com/Alerts/Default.aspx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
yup me to...
From: Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR <[email protected]>
Subject: Fabulous New Energy Source for EVs!
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:50:30 -0800
PS: This second reference to some PDF files from
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:59:14 -0800
To: [email protected]
Here is a GE datasheet of one particular instance of the Turbo version:
http://www.floobydust.com/turbo-encabulator/ge_turbo-encabulator.pdf
LOCKED UP MY COMPUTER !!! any one else experence that ??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to all that have replied. The answers given are very helpful. Lee is
correct the motor control is from a fork lift and it probably me that he is
refering to. However until last week I could not get a good answer from the
designers of the controler. One of the programmers offered to help me with
some programming. So I am back on the trail to having an A/C powered car.
This is what I wanted from the beginning.
Thanks again!
Mike G.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: A/C Motor voltage?
Mike G. wrote:
> a contact at the motor controllers design facility... mentioned
> to use an 80 volt controller with a lower voltage motor to help
> with the bemf issues.
80 volt AC motor controllers are now being built for fork lifts and the
like. They might work for an on-the-road EV. I think someone was trying
one; does anyone recall who it was?
> If I use a 36 volt A/C motor on an 80 volt invertor do you think I
> could damage the motor? Also: How will the torque output of the
> motor be affected with the different voltage?
As for DC motors, the nameplate rating of an AC motor is just one
suggested operating point. There are many other operating points that
can work just as well, or even better.
For an AC motor, frequency determines its speed. If the nameplate rating
is 3600 rpm at 60 Hz, then it runs equally well at 3000 rpm at 50 Hz,
7200 rpm at 120 Hz, etc.
Voltage is closely tied to frequency. The nameplate tells you the
maximum voltage you can apply *at that frequency* (though there is a
10-20% safety factor to allow for high line voltage). But this maximum
voltage goes up or down with frequency. If the motor is rated 120 vac at
60 Hz, then it is 100 vac at 50 Hz, 240 vac at 120 Hz, etc.
The current is defined by the wire size, and is independent of voltage,
frequency and rpm (except that if there is an internal cooling fan, you
can run a little more current at high rpm than at low rpm). Suppose the
motor has an external cooling fan; if the nameplate says "36 vac, 100
amps, 60 Hz", then you can apply 72vac and load it until it draws 100
amps, and it will still run fine, no hotter than it would have at 36v.
Note that the horsepower changes as you change voltage and frequency.
Torque is proportional to current. Speed is proportional to frequency.
100 amps at 72v and 120 Hz produces *twice* the horsepower, because you
have the same torque at double the speed.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: 2/12/2007
1:23 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could try downloading it to your harddisk, then opening it separately.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Gamber
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 4:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fabulous New Energy Source for EVs!
yup me to...
>From: Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR <[email protected]>
>Subject: Fabulous New Energy Source for EVs!
>Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:50:30 -0800
>
>
>PS: This second reference to some PDF files from Cor van de Water
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:59:14 -0800
>To: [email protected]
>
>Here is a GE datasheet of one particular instance of the Turbo version:
>http://www.floobydust.com/turbo-encabulator/ge_turbo-encabulator.pdf
>
>LOCKED UP MY COMPUTER !!! any one else experence that ??
>--
>Steven S. Lough, Pres.
>Seattle EV Association
>6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
>Seattle, WA 98115-7230
>Day: 206 850-8535
>Eve: 206 524-1351
>e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
_________________________________________________________________
Buy what you want when you want it on Sympatico / MSN Shopping
http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca/content/shp/?ctId=2,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=081
805
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes i got told off at the local shopping centre cause they couldn't see me.
They said to turn on my lights. I mean my car has a million stickers on it
and it is bright yellow. Maybe they should look before they crossed the car
park. :-)
On 14/02/07, Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:49:18 -0800, you wrote:
>I drove into a parking lot where two women just stepped outside, talking
to
>each other. I followed them at 10 ft distance for several car lengths
before
>one of them noticed something and looked behind her, then was very
surprised
>to see a car and apologized for walking in my path (which they had
>already done for some time). I was just enjoying the 'grin' of the
electric
>mode of my hybrid.
Just did this with a Subaru Outback at the mall. It wasn't the
electric car being quiet. It was the pedestrians lack of awareness or
in this town just plain not paying attention. People these days don't
seem to know that in a car vs. ped accident, the car wins! ok, ok, I
will get off of my soapbox.
R. M. Milliron
Jimmy: ...But...Sir? That's a really lame name, Sir.
Boss: We can't all be cool in life Jimmy. Some of
us have to be Subaru drivers.
www.Sheldoncomics.com/strips/sd070128.png
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yes between the disc. it does not need to be very long or very strong just
long enough to spreed the disc and strong enough to move them a small distance
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
From: FRED JEANETTE MERTENS
> To eliminate drag on disc brakes, what if one put a small spring between
> the 2 discs?
You mean between the two pads?
This could help, but there are a number of problems. Typically, you have the
rotor, a free-floating caliper, and two pads. A single hydraulic cylinder
pushes one of the pads against one side of the rotor. The pressure from that
pad against the rotor makes the free-floating caliper slide in the opposite
direction, which presses the opposite pad against the other side of the rotor.
When you release the brake, the o-ring in the hydraulic cylinder is supposed
to pull back the piston (and its pad) from one side of the rotor. But often,
this o-ring is too weak; it pulls back to relieve the pressure, but the pad
still drags lightly on the rotor.
Meanwhile, the caliper is supposed to slide back to its free position. But
often, the pins that it slides on are dirty or rusty, and bind. So the caliper
continues to drag lightly on the other side of the disk, too.
Because the pressure is high, the movement of the pads is very small. Even if
the pads do pull back, there is very little clearance between pad and rotor. As
the rotor wears, it gets out of round. So it is common for runout and wobble in
the rotor to cause further binding.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was wondering about the bottom of my ev ?!! I think if I install a solid
piece of thin plastic (semi ridged) from front to rear left to right leaving
adequate room for tire movement it should make my e v have less drag at
little cost in either $ or weight . what do you guys (and ladies) think ??
--- End Message ---
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Hey Mike, all
--- MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I saw this a couple days ago and thought it was just
> something I missed. I didn't realize it was a new
> addition. Very nice. Tracking the weight changes
> over the years is interesting.
John gave me the heads up a couple of weeks ago so I
got a sneak peek 8^P He was by the shop yesterday and
asked me what I thought? I told him "hell there's 2
weeks of reading there, hehe. He told me he's been
working it for months so I'm sure he'll be glad to
hear others noticed.
Personally I'm kinda fond of the "early 2005 version"
section myself, LMAO! Of course I need to teach John
how to spell HI-TORQUE though <sigh> what can you do.
I'm looking forward to the roll-barred upgrade after
he hits 11.99 8^o
Hopefully John chimes in here soon, I know he wrote a
big 3 hour post and somehow lost it, so he has to redo
it (snicker snicker) I also know he has some things
to report.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Have a burning question?
Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, Lee. I don't have that information off-hand. The Porsche is
currently stored for the winter, and awaiting a new controller in the
spring. I could do a test on the bicycle battery pack if that would be
of any value.
Darryl
================
Lee Hart wrote:
Darryl McMahon wrote:
> my Kill-a-Watt P3 says the 12 chargers combined on my 914 are drawing
0 (zero) watts for many minutes at a time, once the batteries are charged.
What does it show for KWH (kilowatt hours used), accumulated over (say)
24 hours? This should capture the total amount of energy being put into
a fully charged pack.
--
Darryl McMahon
It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will?
The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (now in print and eBook)
http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: FRED JEANETTE MERTENS
>> To eliminate drag on disc brakes, what if one put a small spring
>> between the 2 discs?
> You mean between the two pads?
Yes, between the disc. It does not need to be very long or very
strong, just long enough to spread the disc and strong enough to
move them a small distance.
The disk, or rotor, is the spinning part attached to the wheel. You
can't move it with a spring!
The caliper is the C-clamp shaped thing that attaches to the car. It
reaches around both sides of the disk.
The two pads are attached to the caliper. Like the jaws of a c-clamp,
they press inward to "pinch" the rotor between them when you step on the
brakes.
But like a C-clamp, only *one* of the pads moves relative to the caliper
(the one on the screw thread, or the one with the hydraulic wheel
cylinder). When you release the brakes, one pad pulls away (if that
darned rubber o-ring still works). The other pad is still dragging
lightly on the rotor. If the rubber o-ring is bad, *both* pads drag
lightly on the rotor.
To retract the pads with springs, you would need *two* springs. One to
pull the movable pad away in the caliper (what the o-ring is supposed to
do). The other spring needs to move the entire caliper assembly,
opposite pad and all, so the second pad is not touching the rotor.
To see an example of this, look at a bicycle (you do *not* want the
brakes to drag on a bicycle)! The rotor is the wheel rim itself. There
are two brake pads, attached to a c-clamp-like caliper. But this caliper
is in two pieces; one for each brake pad. Each half has its own return
spring to pull it away from the wheel.
To reliably get disk brakes not to drag, you'd have to cook up some
similar method to insure that *both* pad retract. It would have to be a
pretty good scheme, so it won't sieze up from rust, dirt, water, wear, etc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FRED JEANETTE MERTENS wrote:
I was wondering about the bottom of my EV. I think if I install a
solid piece of thin plastic (semi ridged) from front to rear, left
to right, leaving adequate room for tire movement, it should make
my EV have less drag at little cost in either $ or weight. What
do you guys (and ladies) think?
I think it would help. You have a Bradley GT as I recall, which is
fairly well streamlined on top. So streamlining the bottom would
definitely help.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I too stumbled across this new addition a few days ago... I guess it
explains why he has been so quite on here for the past few months!
Tim Ireland
South Australia
----------------------------------------------------------------
EscapeNet - Flat rate ADSL broadband from $29.90
http://www.esc.net.au
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Even in the quietest of places, our Escape hybrid was catlike as it moved
under E-power.
Consider that not only is the noise of the motor gone, but when the ICE is
not running, there are no belts whirring - which is what most pedestrians
would hear on even the slowest, quietest, creeping ICE car.
- kip
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 7:33 AM
Subject: RE: Chain Noise Re: Personal Electric Transport
Don't most electrics "Humm" at low speeds?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kip C. Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:02
To: [email protected]
Subject: Chain Noise Re: Personal Electric Transport
After driving a hybrid vehicle for 6 months, I'd suggest that a little
noise when you travel is a good thing. Allot of people with GOOD
hearing use their ears for vehicular clues when walking across streets
and parking lots.
I lost count of how meany people we caught off guard when our ICE was
dormant. The blind don't even have a chance.
I would not be surprised if a noise making device of low volume becomes
mandatory on hybrids and electrics in the future.
- Kip
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks for that link, you are right, the motorcycle makes the same
racket as the aspire does, too loud and annoying for me!
Jack
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: 2/12/2007
1:23 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm addicted to the Shatner-Spader show Boston Legal. In the closing
argument, Spader exclaims:
"--Electricity, which we don't use simply because...
I've forgotten; why don't' we have electric cars?
Did we get rid of them because they're the most efficient?
I bet it's because: those who actually drove them claimed to love them."
Nice.
--
Sean Korb [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.spkorb.org
'65, '68 Mustangs, '68 Cougar, '78 R100/7, '71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm assuming you mean the pads and not the disc? The disc is the cast
iron piece that is bolted to the wheel.
Anyway, the beauty of hydrualic brakes is that a very large movement with
little effort (pedal) becomes a very tiny movement with huge pressure
(pads)
Your spring will always move the discs back to the same spot, even after
they have worn down. Now it takes a large movement of the pedal just to
get the pads to where they start to touch. Eventually you'll have no
brakes.
The normal caliper uses the rubber seal to pull the piston back slightly.
As the pads wear the piston pushes out further and further through the
seal, but only gets pulled back slightly. This has the effect of
automatically adjusting the brakes.
With a spring you'd have to frequently be disaasembling your brakes to
shorten the spring slightly to account for pad wear.
It would probably work, but it would be a lot of ongoing work. Hardly
worth the effort.
> yes between the disc. it does not need to be very long or very strong
> just long enough to spreed the disc and strong enough to move them a
> small distance
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:21 PM
> Subject: Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
>
>
> From: FRED JEANETTE MERTENS
> > To eliminate drag on disc brakes, what if one put a small spring
> between
> > the 2 discs?
>
> You mean between the two pads?
>
> This could help, but there are a number of problems. Typically, you have
> the rotor, a free-floating caliper, and two pads. A single hydraulic
> cylinder pushes one of the pads against one side of the rotor. The
> pressure from that pad against the rotor makes the free-floating caliper
> slide in the opposite direction, which presses the opposite pad against
> the other side of the rotor.
>
> When you release the brake, the o-ring in the hydraulic cylinder is
> supposed to pull back the piston (and its pad) from one side of the
> rotor. But often, this o-ring is too weak; it pulls back to relieve the
> pressure, but the pad still drags lightly on the rotor.
>
> Meanwhile, the caliper is supposed to slide back to its free position.
> But often, the pins that it slides on are dirty or rusty, and bind. So
> the caliper continues to drag lightly on the other side of the disk,
> too.
>
> Because the pressure is high, the movement of the pads is very small.
> Even if the pads do pull back, there is very little clearance between
> pad and rotor. As the rotor wears, it gets out of round. So it is common
> for runout and wobble in the rotor to cause further binding.
> --
> Lee Hart
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know many cars - Volvos come to mind - have multiple pistons in each
caliper. In these set-ups the caliper is fixed and each pad has one or
more pistons to put pressure on it. I would think that by eliminating
the sliding caliper, that would eliminate the possibility of those
surfaces seizing, and the multiple pistons with a rubber o-ring on each
might retract more overall than a single o-ring for the entire caliper.
I know the added complexity of these systems can lead to other problems,
but like anything mechanical, maintenance is critical.
Lee Hart wrote:
From: FRED JEANETTE MERTENS
>> To eliminate drag on disc brakes, what if one put a small spring
>> between the 2 discs?
> You mean between the two pads?
Yes, between the disc. It does not need to be very long or very
strong, just long enough to spread the disc and strong enough to
move them a small distance.
The disk, or rotor, is the spinning part attached to the wheel. You
can't move it with a spring!
The caliper is the C-clamp shaped thing that attaches to the car. It
reaches around both sides of the disk.
The two pads are attached to the caliper. Like the jaws of a c-clamp,
they press inward to "pinch" the rotor between them when you step on the
brakes.
But like a C-clamp, only *one* of the pads moves relative to the caliper
(the one on the screw thread, or the one with the hydraulic wheel
cylinder). When you release the brakes, one pad pulls away (if that
darned rubber o-ring still works). The other pad is still dragging
lightly on the rotor. If the rubber o-ring is bad, *both* pads drag
lightly on the rotor.
To retract the pads with springs, you would need *two* springs. One to
pull the movable pad away in the caliper (what the o-ring is supposed to
do). The other spring needs to move the entire caliper assembly,
opposite pad and all, so the second pad is not touching the rotor.
To see an example of this, look at a bicycle (you do *not* want the
brakes to drag on a bicycle)! The rotor is the wheel rim itself. There
are two brake pads, attached to a c-clamp-like caliper. But this caliper
is in two pieces; one for each brake pad. Each half has its own return
spring to pull it away from the wheel.
To reliably get disk brakes not to drag, you'd have to cook up some
similar method to insure that *both* pad retract. It would have to be a
pretty good scheme, so it won't sieze up from rust, dirt, water, wear, etc.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 13 Feb 2007 at 7:02, Kip C. Anderson wrote:
> I would not be surprised if a noise making device of low volume becomes
> mandatory on hybrids and electrics in the future.
Good grief. We're trying to reduce noise pollution with EVs, not introduce
new forms of it.
This reminds me a bit of the infamous laws passed in the early years of
vehicular travel, requiring that a person walk in front of an automobile
holding a lantern to warn of its approach. Such laws are well meaning, but
in the end they're really prompted by fear of change.
EVs are quiet. That's their nature, and it's a good thing. It also means
that we, as their drivers, have to take all the greater responsibility for
pedestrians' well being, be they sighted or no.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
From: Nick
> I know many cars - Volvos come to mind - have multiple pistons in each
> caliper. In these set-ups the caliper is fixed and each pad has one or
> more pistons to put pressure on it. I would think that by eliminating
> the sliding caliper, that would eliminate the possibility of those
> surfaces seizing, and the multiple pistons with a rubber o-ring on each
> might retract more overall than a single o-ring for the entire caliper.
> I know the added complexity of these systems can lead to other problems,
> but like anything mechanical, maintenance is critical.
The Volvo is the one car I've heard of that does this. Are there others? Does
anyone know if the Volvo system does in fact reduce dragging brakes?
I suspect that brakes drag because car companies haven't bothered to design
ones that don't drag. It's cheaper to build that way.
The GM EV1 had front disk brakes. I wonder how they were designed? It's
probably one of the rare vehicles where someone actually thought about the
problem, and may have tried to eliminate it.
How would people feel if I used drum brakes on the Sunrise kit car?
1. Great idea! Eliminates dragging brakes, and probably cheaper too.
2. Horrible idea! No one would even consider not having disk brakes nowdays.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I swear I'm not making this up, but I can't find any reference to it now and
don't recall the source:.
I read just the other day that a blind advocacy group was actually
attempting to get some legislation into play that would require vehicles to
make a minimal amount of noise.
Perhaps somebody can debunk this. I'd rather it not come to be.
And I believe that there is still one state that has or had until a
recently, a law requiring a warning flag waver in front of a vehicle driven
by a woman.
- Kip
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: Chain Noise Re: Personal Electric Transport
On 13 Feb 2007 at 7:02, Kip C. Anderson wrote:
I would not be surprised if a noise making device of low volume becomes
mandatory on hybrids and electrics in the future.
Good grief. We're trying to reduce noise pollution with EVs, not
introduce
new forms of it.
This reminds me a bit of the infamous laws passed in the early years of
vehicular travel, requiring that a person walk in front of an automobile
holding a lantern to warn of its approach. Such laws are well meaning,
but
in the end they're really prompted by fear of change.
EVs are quiet. That's their nature, and it's a good thing. It also means
that we, as their drivers, have to take all the greater responsibility for
pedestrians' well being, be they sighted or no.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jody,
Batteries in parallel like these are act as one larger battery. An
islator is not required because both batteries are getting the same
discharge and charge cycles.
I don't have current pictures online yet. Hopefylly I'll update my
evalbum entry soon!
Ralph
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G writes:
>
> How do you keep the parallel sets from killing each other? It has been
> my experience that when two batteries are in parallel with each other
> they will constantly equalize each other eventually killing them both.
> That is why dual battery car systems have an isolator between them. Do
> you have pictures? Your project sounds very interesting!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ralph Merwin
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 9:56
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
>
>
> Jody,
>
> The batteries are configured as 13 pairs connected in series,
> effectively
> 13 double-capacity Yellow Tops. They are in parallel all the time.
>
> The max range is about 35-40 miles. However, dragging them down to 80%
> DOD each and every time is guaranteed to kill the pack in short order.
> I consider 50% DOD as my real limit to help extend battery life, which
> happens to correspond to 17-20 miles with my (mostly freeway) commute.
>
> Ralph
>
>
> Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G writes:
> >
> > Ralph,
> >
> > You said you typically drive 35 miles a day. What is the cars
> > maximum range with the yellow tops? How do you switch between the
> > buddy pairs or are they in parallel all the time?
> >
> > Jody
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > On Behalf Of Ralph Merwin
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 8:41
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
> >
> >
> > Tim Gamber writes:
> > >
> > > Hey everyone just wanted to know what kind of EV your driving, what
> > > components you used, and how much on average it cost for you to run
> > > your EV per a certain distance including battery replacement?
> >
> > Tim,
> >
> > My 1993 Geo Prizm has a 156v pack of Optima Yellow Tops, 26 batteries
> > configured as 13 buddy pairs. The controller is a Zilla Z1k, the
> > charger is a PFC-20. There are Rudman Regulators on each battery
> > pair, with the Regbus connected to all regulators and back to the
> charger.
> >
> > I typically drive 35 miles a day during the week, and about 10-15
> > miles per day on the weekends. It costs about $15 per month for
> > electricity for the Prizm. I only have to pay about half of this
> > because my employer allows me to recharge at work, but then I buy
> > three dozen donuts once a month as a "thanks".
> >
> > Battery replacement costs in the future are unknown. At the current
> > prices this could be about $3500.
> >
> > Other 'expendables' include tires, brake pads, transmission oil, etc.
> > The list is fairly short due to the lack of an ICE.
> >
> > Note that I consider replacement cost for the batteries as one of the
> > vehicle's 'expendables' and not part of the 'fuel' cost. Replacement
> > cost does figure into the cost of ownership though (just as would any
> > other part that wears out over time). This viewpoint was nailed home
> > recently when a friend of mine had to replace the fuel pump in his
> > diesel VW Passat, and it cost him about $2400!
> >
> > Ralph
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike, this post is regarding the first 9" housing in White Zombie, since
John has disappeared from the list : ) I believe John purchased the complete
rearend from somebodies project V8 Chevy LUV. The housing did have the smaller
bearings and 28 spline axles. The previous owner had it narrowed and splined.
The carrier was also about two inches to the right making drive line clearances
very tight, as far as I know John didn't have to do do any machine work, he
just bolted it in and later added a spool. I know John will correct me if I'm
wrong on that.
The new rearend is a much better setup with bigger bearings, Detroit
locker and 31 spline Dutchman axles, Now all we need is a stronger carrier to
keep from cracking the pinion support !
MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I saw this a couple days ago and thought it was just something I missed. I
didn't realize it was a new addition. Very nice. Tracking the weight changes
over the years is interesting.
A question though for John....did the initial 9" housing you used out of the
'57 Ford come with the smaller axle bearings 1.378" I.D., 2.8246" O.D or the
larger 1.5312" I.D., 3.1496" O.D bearings. I'm presuming you had 31 spline
axles. But if you happened to be running the 28 spline axles was it difficult
to shorten them?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pestka, Dennis J"
Date: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 4:53 am
Subject: White Zombie History
To: EV Discussion Group
> Just looked at the new "White Zombie History" link on John Waylands
> Website.
> Fantastic !
> Thanks for all the time spent to put "that" together.
> Really helps you appreciate all the time and engineering that went
> intogetting to where you are today.
>
> Great Job !
>
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
>
>
> http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/reviews.php
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a very tiny car. It's probably a good thing that it's unlikely to
actually reach 50MPH. <g> (Recall, the Gizmo was rated at 45MPH max, but I
didn't/couldn't get it above 35... plenty quick enough for that rig.) As far
as I can see from the pix, this is basically just a bit stouter than a 3
wheel 'bent bike. Above 30MPH, it's going to see awfully fast to be
traveling.
Mark mentioned "Watch Eugene Weekly for a story sometime soon too."
Remember, this is a kit. You can make changes as needed. Although with the
design, upsizing batts could prove a very interesting challenge. Like you,
I'm getting very interested in this rig.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David O'Neel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: Personal Electric Transport
> Wow, I'm having a really hard time NOT making immediate plans to put in an
> order for one! $3-4000 is really not bad at all especially for ground-up
> design. I always liked the Gizmo as well. I could see adding a rear end to
> it though, if for nothing else, to boost the aerodynamics a little. I
guess
> I will have to just go and have a look
>
> I wonder what the implications would be for hopping it up a bit, although
> for most, 50mph top speed is actually plenty. Any more than that, and you
> are competing with sparrows!
>
> Excellent..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone read through the el ninja documentation? I have only just become
interested in all this in the last 2 days so im trying to suck up all the
information I can. I was thinking of building something really small first.
However I do work in the electrical industry, so I do have some idea of whats
going on. Anyone have any hints because I have been looking around the net and
no one seems to be posting plans or a good break down on how they are building
their vehicles. I have thus far only found 2 main pages they are
http://jerryrig.com/convert/ and http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/build most of
the others just talk how good they are and how smart they are, but no plans or
anything described in detail. Anything would be very helpful
Thanks
_________________________________________________________________
Live Search: Better results, fast
http://get.live.com/search/overview
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The claims of this manufacturer... with their "stepped" cylinders sounds
like perpetual motion, as applied to brakes.
Peter: You are correct. With drum brakes, you have a secondary leverage
applied. In most systems, you have a single wheel cylinder, applying force
outwards at one end of the shoes, the other end fixed. For a given diameter
of wheel cylinder, the force is multiplied. Unfortunately, there is also
more slack to take up, even when the self-adjusters keep the shoes adjusted.
(eg: partially pull the emergency brake... less pedal distance.)
Disks don't clear the rotors by as great a distance. Though the force is not
leveraged, you'll note that most calipers are of a larger diameter, giving a
similar leverage (all hydraulic) and similar stopping power, when not power
assisted. Where power assist comes into play is in allowing a smaller
caliper to be used. This keeps your pedal pressure low (toe operated) and
travel distance is minimized by keeping the caliper smaller... less fluid to
move the cylinder the same distance. A longer stroke (more volume) master
cylinder and larger calipers would have the same effect... except now your
pedal distance would be further. Instead of just heel/toeing the pedal,
you'd need to lift your foot and press further. Same effect, though... and
given enough leverage advantage, similar pedal pressure.
The only real advantage to using multiple calipers is that the calipers can
be smaller and spaced across the pad. Now you get the advantage of more
piston area and the pressure is applied over the width of the pad... ala
some MC designs. The leverage is the same per square inch of piston,
however.
When ya'll buy special stepped cylinders, might I also suggest "multi fire"
spark plugs... guaranteed to increase your MPG and performance by 20%???
<vbg>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
> Hmm, interesting.
>
> Still, someone correct me if I'm wrong. but it seems to me that untill you
> experience brake fade, drum brakes will like provide more stopping power
> per pedal effort on un-assisted brakes (due to the self-actuating
> feature).
>
> I pretty sure that sports cars went to disc brakes (even un-assisted disc
> brakes) because racing involves LOTS of slowing down and speeding up.
> The kind of driving that is NOT typical for most EV commuters. I'm
> thinking that drum brakes might actually be better than discs in a
> commuter type EV.
>
> >>Were you experiencing brake fade due to long down hills or frequent
stops
> >>from high speed?
> >>
> >>THe big advantage of disc brakes is that they can shed heat faster and
> >>avoid fading (to some extent).
> >
> > That certainly is one advantage, but it's a little more complicated than
> > that.
> >
> > Drum brakes are generally " self-actuating" by design, That is, most of
> > the
> > force that pushes the shoes against the inside of the drums is caused by
> > the
> > friction force of the drums on the shoes. Only a relatively small
> > actuation
> > force is required to start this chain reaction. That is why drum brake
> > systems can easily get away without power assist.
> > Think of it as being similar to a rope brake that you can make by
wrapping
> > a
> > rope several times around a tree. You only need a small force on one
end
> > to
> > control a very large tension force at the other end.
> >
> > The downside of this self-actuating system is that the final braking
> > torque
> > is not linear with the coefficient of friction between the shoes and
drum.
> > It's a much stronger function of the friction coefficient So, a small
> > drop
> > in friction coefficient ( due to temperature rise, for example)
> > can reduce the stopping force drastically. This is what used to be
called
> > "brake fade".
> >
> > With disc brakes, the stopping torque is linearly proportional to the
> > friction coefficient. A small ( or moderate) change in that coefficient
> > doesn't have nearly as strong an effect on the stopping power.
> >
> > Phil
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Search for grocery stores. Find gratitude. Turn a simple search into
> > something more.
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 13 Feb 2007 at 20:50, Ralph Merwin wrote:
> An
> islator is not required because both batteries are getting the same
> discharge and charge cycles.
I'm not so sure. If a battery develops a shorted cell, its partner will
empty itself trying to charge it. I even had this happen with two parallel
96v strings once.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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