EV Digest 6420
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Any suggestions for electric heater cores for pack voltages over
300vdc?
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Handling plasmaboyracing.com blog comments
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Soft-linking WAS/ Cost to drive a EV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) RE: Soft-linking WAS/ Cost to drive a EV
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Comparison of Flat and Round Battery Cables
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Soft-linking WAS/ Cost to drive a EV
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Flooded Battery State of Charge Question
by "Nawaz Qureshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Handling plasmaboyracing.com blog comments
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Sunrise, was: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Sunrise, was: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: what does unsprung mass or weight mean?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Handling plasmaboyracing.com blog comments
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Solectria AC system: #AC24 and #DMOC445 $6.5k. Good or not?
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Speaking of Hybrids
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Introductions
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Introductions
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: DC-DC converter on Ebay
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Soft-linking WAS/ Cost to drive a EV
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Paul Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Always something to consider, how to defrost in the winter. Has
anyone
> come across a ceramic heater core that would be appropriate for pack
> voltages between 300 and 400vdc?
>
> Paul Wallace
>
I needd somethign to discharge a pack of cells with recently, at 72V,
and so the only thing which I had to hand was an AC hot air paint
stripper gun. The motor is like that of an electric drill, it's brushed
and works similarly to a 'universal motor'
Two of those in series will give you a lot of heat.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't believe in censorship unless it is inappropriate language,
etc. I would have a FAQ link or boiler response with useful links. I
have some negative responses on some areas of my blog and I have left
them up and there have been some good responses. This is the nature
of a blog IMO, not to control the responses unless inappropriate. If
you want just a comments section then indicate that the blog owner
will not be responding, etc.
M
www.electricyaris.com
On Feb 15, 2007, at 9:00 AM, Mark Farver wrote:
John Wayland's website has the option to post comments about
articles he's written. It hasn't been terribly useful, most of the
comments are either spam, or "How can I build my own EV?" type
questions. Only a few comments are actually about the post.
Right now, I delete the spam and the newbie posts. I hate doing
that, but I don't have the time to introduce several dozen people a
month to the EV world. What do you all think should be done?
I see a few options:
1. Disable the comment section. John likes the idea of it, but
its really not being used.
2. Have a boilerplate reply to these types of inquiries that has a
list of links and suggestions on where to start looking. (Anyone
want to write one, or can you suggest a website that serves the
same purpose?)
It looks like the Car and Driver article featuring Wayland will hit
newsstands shortly, so I expect a big uptick in traffic to the
website.
John's been learning html and writing his own content for the site,
but images of his cars, videos or articles written by others about
him or his vehicles are always appreciated. Feel free to email
anything you have to me.
If there are any HTML layout masters who would be willing to spare
a few minutes let me know. Right now the mainpage has one button
that has a font that doesn't match the others, and a really old
school table based layout that could be cleaned up.
Thanks
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor
What size wire would you use for the buddy pair soft links? This would be
basically what Lee brought up in a different post would be like a fusible link.
Don
In a message dated 2/14/2007 7:50:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Ralph,
You describe the perfect world, where everything is in equilibrium and what
is not will move there.
Now consider that some technologies will drop in voltage when the battery
heats up.
This is the opposite of equilibrium:
- if one battery happens to have a lower resistance or lower SOC then it
gets more current
- due to the higher current, it warms up more than the buddy pair and gets
even more current
- this can lead to a runaway situation, where one battery hogs all current
(on charge as well
as on discharge!) so there effectively is no buddy pairing, it is one
effective battery,
but the current limit and expected capacity are for the buddy pair, so not
only does the
good battery get hit with double current, it will also be run down to
empty when you
think that you are using 50% DOD.
Now I am not even addressing faults like a short in one cell or a different
temperature to start with and other failures that batteries can develop and
which are potential fatal in typical un-fused buddy pairs.
Let the evidence be clear that of the few EVs that ever self-destructed
(fire), there is an unexpected high percentage with buddy-paired batteries.
One such occurrence was the Porsche Flambe' of Michael Bearden, who had his
car parked outside his garage and was not charging it due to circumstances,
normally he would have lost his garage with other EVs (Goggomobile 36Volts)
and all his tools and equipment.
One way that you can make safer buddy-pairs is by 'soft-linking' them.
Build two series strings with heavy duty cable.
Then use thin cable (preferably with simple automotive fuses) to wire the
pairs of battery-connecting cable together, this will give the wanted
buddy-pairing with voltage equalization but will avoid any high currents in
case of malfunction of one of the buddy-pairs. Battery regulators should
still be OK with only one per pair as typical currents through regulators
are small. They should also tell when one battery develops a problem and the
voltage gets too high or too low too soon.
Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph Merwin
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 6:46 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
Jody,
>From what I've read, batteries in parallel like this work a bit
>differently
than what you describe. When the pair is being charged, the one at a lower
state of charge will take more of the current. As its SOC increases and its
voltage tries to increase, it takes less of the charge current. The voltage
of the battery with a higher SOC cannot get significantly higher than its
mate.
Now the other battery takes more of the current until its SOC increases.
They continue like this until fully charged.
The reverse happens on discharge.
I haven't actually measured the currents going thru a pair to verify this.
Someday...
Ralph
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G writes:
>
> Also, when the batteries charge and discharge since they are
> chemically different and their internal resistance is not the same
> they will react differently. One will always take a charge faster and
> so it will cook while the other catches up. If the weaker doesn't get
> the full charge before the charger cuts off it will go deeper than the
> other or the stronger battery will charge it up and equalize costing
> power. With regulators across the pair you will still have the same
> problem. The regulator will not cut the current off to the stronger
> battery so the weaker can get more charge. Believe me - there will
> always be a weaker and a stronger battery in a buddy pair. As the
> batteries age the difference will become greater and eventually the
> buddy pair will kill both batteries. I would really recommend
> separating the buddy pairs into strings of series batteries that can
> be connected in parallel during use or charging. That way your pack
> won't prematurely kill itself. I would hate to see your batteries die a
year or so early.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of David Roden
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 0:26
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
>
> On 13 Feb 2007 at 20:50, Ralph Merwin wrote:
>
> > An
> > islator is not required because both batteries are getting the same
> > discharge and charge cycles.
>
> I'm not so sure. If a battery develops a shorted cell, its partner
> will empty itself trying to charge it. I even had this happen with
> two parallel 96v strings once.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Want
> to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
> webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don,
I would use for example 12 AWG and an automotive fuse of 30A so it will
never blow due to some charging/discharging imbalance but will prevent any
destructive currents.
Over a year ago I picked up a bunch of automotive fuses with cap (so it is
protected at all sides) and 12 AWG wires, they came with 30A fuses
pre-installed and a loop of wire of about 2ft that I could cut in whichever
length I wanted.
The fuse introduces a small resistance, which helps in case of soft-linking
series strings into buddy pairs.
Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:05 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Soft-linking WAS/ Cost to drive a EV
Cor
What size wire would you use for the buddy pair soft links? This would be
basically what Lee brought up in a different post would be like a fusible
link.
Don
In a message dated 2/14/2007 7:50:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Ralph,
You describe the perfect world, where everything is in equilibrium and what
is not will move there.
Now consider that some technologies will drop in voltage when the battery
heats up.
This is the opposite of equilibrium:
- if one battery happens to have a lower resistance or lower SOC then it
gets more current
- due to the higher current, it warms up more than the buddy pair and gets
even more current
- this can lead to a runaway situation, where one battery hogs all current
(on charge as well as on discharge!) so there effectively is no buddy
pairing, it is one effective battery, but the current limit and expected
capacity are for the buddy pair, so not only does the good battery get hit
with double current, it will also be run down to empty when you think that
you are using 50% DOD.
Now I am not even addressing faults like a short in one cell or a different
temperature to start with and other failures that batteries can develop and
which are potential fatal in typical un-fused buddy pairs.
Let the evidence be clear that of the few EVs that ever self-destructed
(fire), there is an unexpected high percentage with buddy-paired batteries.
One such occurrence was the Porsche Flambe' of Michael Bearden, who had his
car parked outside his garage and was not charging it due to circumstances,
normally he would have lost his garage with other EVs (Goggomobile 36Volts)
and all his tools and equipment.
One way that you can make safer buddy-pairs is by 'soft-linking' them.
Build two series strings with heavy duty cable.
Then use thin cable (preferably with simple automotive fuses) to wire the
pairs of battery-connecting cable together, this will give the wanted
buddy-pairing with voltage equalization but will avoid any high currents in
case of malfunction of one of the buddy-pairs. Battery regulators should
still be OK with only one per pair as typical currents through regulators
are small. They should also tell when one battery develops a problem and
the voltage gets too high or too low too soon.
Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph Merwin
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 6:46 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
Jody,
>From what I've read, batteries in parallel like this work a bit
>differently
than what you describe. When the pair is being charged, the one at a lower
state of charge will take more of the current. As its SOC increases and
its voltage tries to increase, it takes less of the charge current. The
voltage of the battery with a higher SOC cannot get significantly higher
than its
mate.
Now the other battery takes more of the current until its SOC increases.
They continue like this until fully charged.
The reverse happens on discharge.
I haven't actually measured the currents going thru a pair to verify this.
Someday...
Ralph
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G writes:
>
> Also, when the batteries charge and discharge since they are
> chemically different and their internal resistance is not the same
> they will react differently. One will always take a charge faster
> and so it will cook while the other catches up. If the weaker
> doesn't get the full charge before the charger cuts off it will go
> deeper than the other or the stronger battery will charge it up and
> equalize costing power. With regulators across the pair you will
> still have the same problem. The regulator will not cut the current
> off to the stronger battery so the weaker can get more charge.
> Believe me - there will always be a weaker and a stronger battery in
> a buddy pair. As the batteries age the difference will become
> greater and eventually the buddy pair will kill both batteries. I
> would really recommend separating the buddy pairs into strings of
> series batteries that can be connected in parallel during use or
> charging. That way your pack won't prematurely kill itself. I would
> hate to see your batteries die a
year or so early.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of David Roden
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 0:26
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
>
> On 13 Feb 2007 at 20:50, Ralph Merwin wrote:
>
> > An
> > islator is not required because both batteries are getting the same
> > discharge and charge cycles.
>
> I'm not so sure. If a battery develops a shorted cell, its partner
> will empty itself trying to charge it. I even had this happen with
> two parallel 96v strings once.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
> webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
The federal requirements actually state "Standard No. 105 - Hydraulic and
Electric Brake Systems - Passenger Cars"
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/FMVSS/index.html#SN105
Thanks, Peter. It's interesting that "and electric brakes..." was added
in 1997; just about when GM started using them in the EV1. I wonder if
GM got the regulations changed to allow their rear electric brakes on
the EV1?
At any rate, I believe these are going to be kits? As such the federal
codes might not matter, you'd only need to meet the state requirements.
True; but brakes are one area where I don't want to skimp!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce wrote:
I have heard of people using 1" X 1/16" copper for connections between
batteries. How does the current carrying capacity of this compare with 2/0
gauge round cable? It seems like the flat strip weighs roughly half of what
the 2/0 cable weighs per foot...
It works fine. It has a lot less cross-sectional area, so it has a lot
more resistance, so it has more voltage drop. All that says it should be
"bad".
But, it also has no insulation and lots of surface area, so it is better
at dissipating heat -- it often runs cooler, not hotter, than a piece of
2/0. It tends to be shorter than a piece of cable could have been, and
eliminates two terminals and their associated connections -- this often
lowers the resistance enough to compensate for its smaller cross
section. It's also cheaper and lighter (less materials).
So overall, it's a good solution when efficiency or ultra high current
carrying capacity are not your primary concern.
Just be sure not to use *flat* strips. You have to put a bend or jog in
the copper buss bar to allow movement of one battery relative to
another, or you will break battery terminals.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andrew Kane wrote:
Could you perhaps cut a spline on outside of shaft / inside of sleeve?
Possibly, but it's expensive. The outer CV joint is permanently attached
to the axle, so it would flop around and get in the way when you are
machining. The shaft is also hardened, and hard to cut.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Call me crazy but why not just create two series strings and connect
them with contactors when they are to be used. Then you wouldn't have
the problem of buddy pairs. You could also charge them separately and
note any changes without thought to interference from buddy wires.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 13:34
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Soft-linking WAS/ Cost to drive a EV
Don,
I would use for example 12 AWG and an automotive fuse of 30A so it will
never blow due to some charging/discharging imbalance but will prevent
any destructive currents.
Over a year ago I picked up a bunch of automotive fuses with cap (so it
is protected at all sides) and 12 AWG wires, they came with 30A fuses
pre-installed and a loop of wire of about 2ft that I could cut in
whichever length I wanted.
The fuse introduces a small resistance, which helps in case of
soft-linking series strings into buddy pairs.
Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:05 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Soft-linking WAS/ Cost to drive a EV
Cor
What size wire would you use for the buddy pair soft links? This would
be basically what Lee brought up in a different post would be like a
fusible link.
Don
In a message dated 2/14/2007 7:50:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Ralph,
You describe the perfect world, where everything is in equilibrium and
what is not will move there.
Now consider that some technologies will drop in voltage when the
battery heats up.
This is the opposite of equilibrium:
- if one battery happens to have a lower resistance or lower SOC then
it gets more current
- due to the higher current, it warms up more than the buddy pair and
gets even more current
- this can lead to a runaway situation, where one battery hogs all
current (on charge as well as on discharge!) so there effectively is no
buddy pairing, it is one effective battery, but the current limit and
expected capacity are for the buddy pair, so not only does the good
battery get hit with double current, it will also be run down to empty
when you think that you are using 50% DOD.
Now I am not even addressing faults like a short in one cell or a
different temperature to start with and other failures that batteries
can develop and which are potential fatal in typical un-fused buddy
pairs.
Let the evidence be clear that of the few EVs that ever self-destructed
(fire), there is an unexpected high percentage with buddy-paired
batteries.
One such occurrence was the Porsche Flambe' of Michael Bearden, who had
his car parked outside his garage and was not charging it due to
circumstances, normally he would have lost his garage with other EVs
(Goggomobile 36Volts) and all his tools and equipment.
One way that you can make safer buddy-pairs is by 'soft-linking' them.
Build two series strings with heavy duty cable.
Then use thin cable (preferably with simple automotive fuses) to wire
the pairs of battery-connecting cable together, this will give the
wanted buddy-pairing with voltage equalization but will avoid any high
currents in case of malfunction of one of the buddy-pairs. Battery
regulators should still be OK with only one per pair as typical
currents through regulators are small. They should also tell when one
battery develops a problem and the voltage gets too high or too low too
soon.
Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph Merwin
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 6:46 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
Jody,
>From what I've read, batteries in parallel like this work a bit
>differently
than what you describe. When the pair is being charged, the one at a
lower state of charge will take more of the current. As its SOC
increases and its voltage tries to increase, it takes less of the
charge current. The voltage of the battery with a higher SOC cannot
get significantly higher than its
mate.
Now the other battery takes more of the current until its SOC
increases.
They continue like this until fully charged.
The reverse happens on discharge.
I haven't actually measured the currents going thru a pair to verify
this.
Someday...
Ralph
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G writes:
>
> Also, when the batteries charge and discharge since they are
> chemically different and their internal resistance is not the same
> they will react differently. One will always take a charge faster
> and so it will cook while the other catches up. If the weaker
> doesn't get the full charge before the charger cuts off it will go
> deeper than the other or the stronger battery will charge it up and
> equalize costing power. With regulators across the pair you will
> still have the same problem. The regulator will not cut the current
> off to the stronger battery so the weaker can get more charge.
> Believe me - there will always be a weaker and a stronger battery in
> a buddy pair. As the batteries age the difference will become
> greater and eventually the buddy pair will kill both batteries. I
> would really recommend separating the buddy pairs into strings of
> series batteries that can be connected in parallel during use or
> charging. That way your pack won't prematurely kill itself. I would
> hate to see your batteries die a
year or so early.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of David Roden
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 0:26
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
>
> On 13 Feb 2007 at 20:50, Ralph Merwin wrote:
>
> > An
> > islator is not required because both batteries are getting the same
> > discharge and charge cycles.
>
> I'm not so sure. If a battery develops a shorted cell, its partner
> will empty itself trying to charge it. I even had this happen with
> two parallel 96v strings once.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = =
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
> webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
MARK DUTKO wrote:
I don't believe in censorship unless it is inappropriate language,
etc. I would have a FAQ link or boiler response with useful links. I
have some negative responses on some areas of my blog and I have left
them up and there have been some good responses. This is the nature of
a blog IMO, not to control the responses unless inappropriate. If you
want just a comments section then indicate that the blog owner will
not be responding, etc.
I wouldn't call this censorship per se.. the comments are moderated just
because the spam levels are so high. (I can't prove it, but the higher
the site reaches in Pagerank, the faster they seem to come in. 2,755
already this month) .
I haven't yet seen any comment I would consider "negative" and I agree I
wouldn't really be appropriate to delete it if I did. (Especially since
it is not my website)
I also see nothing wrong with comments along this lines of "How did you
do X" in relationship to an article. (Such questions are unlikely to be
answered, but they are on topic). My question is how to answer the more
generic questions like this one:
--------------------
# David ****** Says:
February 15th, 2007 at 8:51 am e
Where or how can I learn to convert my old dodge dart into an electric
vehicle?
--------------------
Which was attached to the post "John and Ted's Excellent
Adventure...Delivering the Mail!"
Not really on topic, and even if I allow it to be posted it is unlikely
to be answered on that page. My immediate reaction is to point out that
since a google search brought them to John's site, another google search
might be a good start, but that would be rude and terribly unhelpful.
(I try to be good, but a lifetime of tech support erodes ones patience ;-) )
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Standard No 135 superseded 105 and it still does NOT allow electric parking
brake,
so that is where GM was at fault using the electric motor to tighten the
rear drums
and needed a waiver to use this as parking brake.
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:14 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> The federal requirements actually state "Standard No. 105 - Hydraulic
> and Electric Brake Systems - Passenger Cars"
> http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/FMVSS/index.html#SN105
Thanks, Peter. It's interesting that "and electric brakes..." was added in
1997; just about when GM started using them in the EV1. I wonder if GM got
the regulations changed to allow their rear electric brakes on the EV1?
> At any rate, I believe these are going to be kits? As such the
> federal codes might not matter, you'd only need to meet the state
requirements.
True; but brakes are one area where I don't want to skimp!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I changed the subject to make this important info findable in the archives.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 2:55 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
Roger Stockton wrote:
Cor van de Water wrote:
>> Is the Sunrise a Front Wheel Drive?
It was FWD (Front Wheel Drive); Geo Metro front, Dodge Neon rear. The front
motor caused the battery weight to be in back, making it tail-heavy. This
caused odd handling, different wheel sizes front and rear, unbalanced
braking, etc.
We chose to convert it to rear wheel drive. This shifts the battery weight
to the front, to provide more normal handling. But it limits the cars we can
choose as donors; there are relatively few rear wheel drive cars any more.
> Not at all; a FWD front-end works just fine whether the Sunrise is
> front or rear-wheel driven.
Yes, it does -- except that almost all FWD cars use McPherson strut
suspension. This is cheap and light, but has the drawback of higher tire
scrub with suspension travel. The central battery tunnel lends itself to
double A-arm suspension.
> If Lee is planning on a T-bird rear end (IIRC), then perhaps the
> approach most considerate of the builder is to use the front end from
> the same donor.
That's what we are looking at right now. It makes things much easier to get
both front and rear from the same car. Tire sizes, brake balancing,
suspension tuning, etc. is all worked out for you. The T'bird/Cougar has
double A-arm front suspension, just like the Ford Mustang II which is so
popular with the hot-rod community; and the independent rear suspension
setup which works well for the motor.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter, Cor, Phil, and all,
Thanks for the clarifications.
We were trying to only have a "either/or" (2
categories) definition, but correct definitions help
understand and develop more specific areas of concern.
Jay Lashlee, GoWheel.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Peter,
> > I'm sure that there is more energy savings by
> > reducing weight in the drivetrain than by the same
> > reduction in weight of "carried weight" like
freight.
> >
>
> Sure, but that's a different suject and has nothing
> to do with "sprung"
> weight.
> What you are talking about is rotating mass and
> primarily effects
> acceleration and deceleration.
>
> <snip>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes this is very common- I worked on corporate website CS for many
years and your get all sorts of questions. If you can respond I would
send a generic e-mail with links to resources and other ev web sites
with a general statement. This will satisfy most posters particularly
those new in the area and would not require specific responses, most
times people are looking for a general direction..
M
On Feb 15, 2007, at 10:42 AM, Mark Farver wrote:
MARK DUTKO wrote:
I don't believe in censorship unless it is inappropriate language,
etc. I would have a FAQ link or boiler response with useful links.
I have some negative responses on some areas of my blog and I have
left them up and there have been some good responses. This is the
nature of a blog IMO, not to control the responses unless
inappropriate. If you want just a comments section then indicate
that the blog owner will not be responding, etc.
I wouldn't call this censorship per se.. the comments are moderated
just because the spam levels are so high. (I can't prove it, but
the higher the site reaches in Pagerank, the faster they seem to
come in. 2,755 already this month) .
I haven't yet seen any comment I would consider "negative" and I
agree I wouldn't really be appropriate to delete it if I did.
(Especially since it is not my website)
I also see nothing wrong with comments along this lines of "How did
you do X" in relationship to an article. (Such questions are
unlikely to be answered, but they are on topic). My question is
how to answer the more generic questions like this one:
--------------------
# David ****** Says:
February 15th, 2007 at 8:51 am e
Where or how can I learn to convert my old dodge dart into an
electric vehicle?
--------------------
Which was attached to the post "John and Ted's Excellent
Adventure...Delivering the Mail!"
Not really on topic, and even if I allow it to be posted it is
unlikely to be answered on that page. My immediate reaction is to
point out that since a google search brought them to John's site,
another google search might be a good start, but that would be rude
and terribly unhelpful. (I try to be good, but a lifetime of tech
support erodes ones patience ;-) )
Mark Farver
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--- Begin Message ---
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/acmotors.shtml
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/accontrol.shtml
Looks really good for a small car. Any info on how well this works? How come
nobody is using this?? Even has contactors in controller.
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Hello Lee,
I just was a my favorite Auto Parts Store which is only 4 blocks away which
is a independent store that can get any auto or truck parts a person ever
want that I been going to for the last 51 years.
I notice that they had a CV joint and telescoping shaft which is a harden
steel shaft that slides into another solid shaft which is about 1.5 to 2
inches in diameter. After you set the length you weld them at the joint or
use a locking coupler unit.
They get them from 3-Rivers which is a national wide company that makes them
for the Dana corp. You can order these type of shafts in any configuration
you want.
You have to specific the CV shaft you are replacing, so the CV joints are
align up like the existing.
I ask how much are they, and they said they are $135.00 each.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Andrew Kane wrote:
> > Could you perhaps cut a spline on outside of shaft / inside
> > of sleeve?
>
> Possibly, but it's expensive. The outer CV joint is permanently
> attached to the axle, so it would flop around and get in the
> way when you are machining. The shaft is also hardened, and
> hard to cut.
Have you tried getting a quote on having a new spline cut on the
shortened axle so that the inner CV joint can simply be re-installed?
I'm wondering what the motivation is for looking at alternatives for
shortening the shafts. I think you mentioned that shortened shafts are
available in the aftermarket, but are "costly" at $300-ish apiece. So,
I assume your goal is to identify a less costly means of obtaining
shafts of the required length. It seems that if re-splining the cut end
is less than $300, then this is a valid option. The challenges you
mention above (flopping outer CV joint, and machining a hardened shaft)
are both quite surmountable.
>From where I sit, it seems unlikely that the average kit builder will be
a composites expert and will really be up to the task of shortening
their own shafts and then joining them back together with composites.
Even if they are up to attempting this, each builder would likely have
to purchase a minimum quantity of cloth and resin far in excess of what
they actually require (unless you plan to include appropriate qunatities
of each with each kit), which will drive the actual cost up. And, the
odds of each builder getting the surface prep just right and aligning
the halves such that the resulting shaft is actually true, and getting
the resin/cloth layup correct such that the shaft is durable, etc. seems
quite low. Thus it seems that the most likely scenario is that the
builder would be best off to buy aftermarket shortened axles or to farm
out the axle-shortening job to a local machine shop anyway. Even if you
still wanted to allow/suggest/encourage the composite approach, it seems
that it would be worthwhile to try to design so that the required
shortened axle length is one that is available "off-the-shelf" in the
aftermarket so that those who choose to focus their efforts on those
aspects of the kit that require their labour can simply buy appropriate
axles.
Given that it is not at all improbable that the kit builder would want
to (or have to) use new axles/CV joints when building the vehicle
anyway, the real cost is merely the difference between a new stock axle
(+ cost of shortening) and a new afternmarket shortened axle....
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ian,
Welcome! Just a question, I really wanted to use NiMHs (they are available NOW,
and they last a long time, etc), but I couldn't find any in large enough
capacity. What battery system are you going to use? You can't parallel NiMHs
easily on discharge, I believe!
- Tony
----- Original Message ----
From: Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 5:58:56 AM
Subject: Re: Introductions
Replies inline..
On 15/02/2007, at 10:31 PM, Bob Bath wrote:
> Hi Ian, and welcome to the list!
> I do recall several Aussies over the year
> contributing their 0.02.
>
> If you use Curtis/ADC 9" you will get a whine under 5
> mph or so. After that the frequency switches to the
> 15kHz (inaudible) range. Some people can't stand it;
> others look at it as a safety feature for pedestrians
> in parking lots.
Yeah I've heard that about the Curtis controller - I suspect it would
annoy the heck out of me! Anyone know what the waiting period is like
for Zilla 1Ks at present!?
> If you can't squeeze your 10kWh into the Miata,
> check out my Civvy.
Looks like a nice install. BTW the link to the powerpoint
presentation appears not to be working?
I should be right for space, 10kWh of NiMHs only take up a touch over
60L, and come in around 150kgs. Half under the hood, half where the
tank was, should even keep the weight balance right! Being a small
sports car, I'm really hoping to avoid the weight of lead acid..
Unfortunately NiMHs seem to be about twice the price, and are going
to require some kind of BMS.
-Ian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can parallel NiMH on discharge, but charging in parallel is a problem.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Hwang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: Introductions
Hi Ian,
Welcome! Just a question, I really wanted to use NiMHs (they are available
NOW, and they last a long time, etc), but I couldn't find any in large
enough capacity. What battery system are you going to use? You can't
parallel NiMHs easily on discharge, I believe!
- Tony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is 13.8 v out up to 50 amps not 9.8KW
I already have a welding machine...no thanks!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: DC-DC converter on Ebay
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 12:21 AM
Subject: Re: DC-DC converter on Ebay
On 14 Feb 2007 at 20:10, Mark Ward wrote:
> There is an excellent DC-DC converter made specifically for EV
applications on
> Ebay right now. It is up to 196V at 50 amps.
A 9.8kW DC:DC? Are you serious?!!? What on earth would you use that
much
12 volt power for?
WELDING? Jump starting ICE mobiles?Charging a solar power battery on a
day
like today? Icestorm, gloomy. Where solaa panels would be just going
"Duh!"
Bob
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jody,
Good idea - US Electricar has two strings and two contactors, so the two
strings are separated when not connected to the controller. This avoids the
common problem (it seems) of a runaway while the vehicle is parked.
However, the US Electricar uses only 1 charger and it is integrated into the
controller, so the two contactors are closed together (paralleling the
strings) to charge them as one string. This does not allow any balancing
between them. Also during discharge there is no control of how much current
is supplied by one string or the other.
That was my reason to reconfigure to one string, avoiding the automatic
unbalancing, at the cost of slightly higher internal resistance, but with
the benefit of an increased capacity and no balancing problems.
My truck is now approaching 7000 miles, 6000 of which are on this setup.
Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:40 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Soft-linking WAS/ Cost to drive a EV
Call me crazy but why not just create two series strings and connect them
with contactors when they are to be used. Then you wouldn't have the
problem of buddy pairs. You could also charge them separately and note any
changes without thought to interference from buddy wires.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 13:34
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Soft-linking WAS/ Cost to drive a EV
Don,
I would use for example 12 AWG and an automotive fuse of 30A so it will
never blow due to some charging/discharging imbalance but will prevent any
destructive currents.
Over a year ago I picked up a bunch of automotive fuses with cap (so it is
protected at all sides) and 12 AWG wires, they came with 30A fuses
pre-installed and a loop of wire of about 2ft that I could cut in whichever
length I wanted.
The fuse introduces a small resistance, which helps in case of soft-linking
series strings into buddy pairs.
Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:05 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Soft-linking WAS/ Cost to drive a EV
Cor
What size wire would you use for the buddy pair soft links? This would be
basically what Lee brought up in a different post would be like a fusible
link.
Don
In a message dated 2/14/2007 7:50:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Ralph,
You describe the perfect world, where everything is in equilibrium and what
is not will move there.
Now consider that some technologies will drop in voltage when the battery
heats up.
This is the opposite of equilibrium:
- if one battery happens to have a lower resistance or lower SOC then it
gets more current
- due to the higher current, it warms up more than the buddy pair and gets
even more current
- this can lead to a runaway situation, where one battery hogs all current
(on charge as well as on discharge!) so there effectively is no buddy
pairing, it is one effective battery, but the current limit and expected
capacity are for the buddy pair, so not only does the good battery get hit
with double current, it will also be run down to empty when you think that
you are using 50% DOD.
Now I am not even addressing faults like a short in one cell or a different
temperature to start with and other failures that batteries can develop and
which are potential fatal in typical un-fused buddy pairs.
Let the evidence be clear that of the few EVs that ever self-destructed
(fire), there is an unexpected high percentage with buddy-paired batteries.
One such occurrence was the Porsche Flambe' of Michael Bearden, who had his
car parked outside his garage and was not charging it due to circumstances,
normally he would have lost his garage with other EVs (Goggomobile 36Volts)
and all his tools and equipment.
One way that you can make safer buddy-pairs is by 'soft-linking' them.
Build two series strings with heavy duty cable.
Then use thin cable (preferably with simple automotive fuses) to wire the
pairs of battery-connecting cable together, this will give the wanted
buddy-pairing with voltage equalization but will avoid any high currents in
case of malfunction of one of the buddy-pairs. Battery regulators should
still be OK with only one per pair as typical currents through regulators
are small. They should also tell when one battery develops a problem and
the voltage gets too high or too low too soon.
Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph Merwin
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 6:46 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
Jody,
>From what I've read, batteries in parallel like this work a bit
>differently
than what you describe. When the pair is being charged, the one at a lower
state of charge will take more of the current. As its SOC increases and
its voltage tries to increase, it takes less of the charge current. The
voltage of the battery with a higher SOC cannot get significantly higher
than its
mate.
Now the other battery takes more of the current until its SOC increases.
They continue like this until fully charged.
The reverse happens on discharge.
I haven't actually measured the currents going thru a pair to verify this.
Someday...
Ralph
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G writes:
>
> Also, when the batteries charge and discharge since they are
> chemically different and their internal resistance is not the same
> they will react differently. One will always take a charge faster
> and so it will cook while the other catches up. If the weaker
> doesn't get the full charge before the charger cuts off it will go
> deeper than the other or the stronger battery will charge it up and
> equalize costing power. With regulators across the pair you will
> still have the same problem. The regulator will not cut the current
> off to the stronger battery so the weaker can get more charge.
> Believe me - there will always be a weaker and a stronger battery in
> a buddy pair. As the batteries age the difference will become
> greater and eventually the buddy pair will kill both batteries. I
> would really recommend separating the buddy pairs into strings of
> series batteries that can be connected in parallel during use or
> charging. That way your pack won't prematurely kill itself. I would
> hate to see your batteries die a
year or so early.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of David Roden
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 0:26
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
>
> On 13 Feb 2007 at 20:50, Ralph Merwin wrote:
>
> > An
> > islator is not required because both batteries are getting the same
> > discharge and charge cycles.
>
> I'm not so sure. If a battery develops a shorted cell, its partner
> will empty itself trying to charge it. I even had this happen with
> two parallel 96v strings once.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
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> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
> webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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--- End Message ---
