EV Digest 6422
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Exide Orbitals anyone?
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Brush Replacement Tips?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: First post
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Battery charger recommendation
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) OT: Re: Affordable Solar
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: First post
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) New AC drive is available
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: First post
by Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: First post
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) New web site for EVISOL
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Affordable Solar
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) When EV's go OEM (the performance aspect)
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry if everyone interpreted my message as a sales offer. I was inquiring
as to their use in EVs hoping someone has experience with them. The school
I work at has been killing them with flooded battery chargers and I am
concerned how they will hold up in EVs with regulators and good treatment.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:11 PM
Subject: RE: Exide Orbitals anyone?
Can you get the narrow model the yellow top D51. I would be happy to
buy 12
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Ward
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 9:13 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Exide Orbitals anyone?
I can get Exide Orbitals wholesale ($100 ea. approx)through where I
work.
Has anyone had experience good or bad with them?
I will be needing batts in the near future...hopefully!
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They are circuit boards that I designed, they monitor the cells temp and
voltage and current, they charge and equalize the batteries, report the
data to the dash display, and if you can keep a secret, shhhh, come over
hear, <whisper> it is also the DC motor controller </whisper>.
Jack
Ian Hooper wrote:
May I ask what BMS circuit boards you're looking at, and what
functionality they provide?
I would be very keen to hear how things go with the NiMHs.. :)
-Ian
On 16/02/2007, at 12:04 PM, Jack Murray wrote:
Good news! We already have "large enough capacities for EVs", as the
Intellect 9Ah D-cells are now available and can be paralleled, I have
a 5.4KwH pack being tested right now and will be going into the
Nimble Motorsports Hybrid once the mechanical drive part is done.
I've got the BMS circuit boards and have been doing some limited
testing on them, haven't had much time to work on it lately, but
hoping within a month I'll have the hybrid car running on the road
under NiMH power.
Jack
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Welcome! Just a question, I really wanted to use NiMHs (they are
available
NOW, and they last a long time, etc), but I couldn't find any in large
enough capacity.
There is a reason that you can't buy them in large enough capacities
for
EVs. Cobasys owns the patent on NiMH, and Cobasys is a wholely owned
subsidiary of Chevron (you know, the Oil company). Their licensing
agreement specifically prohibits manufacturing cells large enough for
electric vehicles. I guess Chevron is afraid that it would cut into
their
profits.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That reminds me that I have bought a cheap Johnson motor on Ebay for
experimentation.
The model number was erased and after inspecting the motor I noticed why
Johnson does not want these motors to be sold under their name (it probably
was salvaged from the waste bin or a scrapped lot) because the brushes are
wrong. The curve that is ground in the brushes is sitting alongside the
comm.
Not only have the brushes been mounted 90 deg rotated, but also does the
curve not match the comm diameter and the spring that the brush is pushed
into has a rectangular shape, so it is impossible to pull it out and rotate
it - it would still not fit the comm and the brush would be too narrow and
touch a too long section of comm when it would be ground down, as the brush
has a rectangular shape and the comm has a small diameter.
I now attached the motor to a 10V power supply and will let it run until
more of the brush touches the comm.
That is the result of buying cheap stuff from Ebay!
I still have some 3-phase motor controls, bought "as is", so all that I
tested were blown, I have one more to test... I used two of them just for
their bridge rectifier in a bad-boy setup...
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Bath
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 5:43 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Brush Replacement Tips?
Yes! They should've ordered a stone with which to grind the brushes so that
their contact area is shaped to that of the commutator. My understanding is
that it limits brush arcing, and maximizes performance.
Also, learning how the brush spring can slip over and slide on top of the
brush holder so as to be up and out of the way is quite interesting, but
once you look at it carefully, and try it, it's no big deal.
Best to you,
--- Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> On Saturday the Triangle Electric Auto Association is going to do
> their first brush replacement on an 8" ADC. The owner has ordered the
> brushes and they should be here by now. The motor is in a Geo Metro.
> We've read Convert It!! Any other tips?
>
> Peter
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD has my '92 sedan, as well
as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Cheap talk?
Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
http://voice.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting about the Cobasys/Chevron relationship, why am I not
surprised!?
There are a few Chinese manufacturers of large capacity NiMHs, e.g
http://nthaiyang.en.alibaba.com/. They are pretty expensive though, I
got quoted US$153ea for 1.2V, 80Ah (600A peak discharge) cells, so
it's heading towards $20K for a ~10kWh pack! Ouch.
The option I'm currently looking at are Sub-Cs, due to their high
discharge rate (>10C). Manufacturer direct, they're about US$1.50
each for 1.2v 3.5Ah, I'll need about 2500 of them for 10kWh. So twice
the price of the best lead acid, but half the weight and hopefully
longer cycle life. Using that many individual cells seems silly, but
it has been done before, e.g the Tesla Roadster, or White Lightning
(http://www.dwra.net/batteryins.htm).
But, I'm still working things out.. if anyone else has experience
using NiMH I would be very interested to hear about it.
-Ian
On 16/02/2007, at 7:53 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Welcome! Just a question, I really wanted to use NiMHs (they are
available
NOW, and they last a long time, etc), but I couldn't find any in
large
enough capacity.
There is a reason that you can't buy them in large enough
capacities for
EVs. Cobasys owns the patent on NiMH, and Cobasys is a wholely owned
subsidiary of Chevron (you know, the Oil company). Their licensing
agreement specifically prohibits manufacturing cells large enough for
electric vehicles. I guess Chevron is afraid that it would cut
into their
profits.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your
long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Crystal,
Welcome to the list. You've joined on a rather busy day on the list. You can
find the list commands here:
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
To set the EVDL in digest mode send the following message to the list processor:
TO: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
SUBJECT:
MESSAGE: set ev mail digest
You have a lot of questions and if you stick around you will get them all
answered. Your post will no doubt generate various
answers to various questions so expect the subject line to change accordingly.
If you have some time, do some searching of the
archives listed at the link I posted above. Also peruse the EVAlbum (EVen more
fun that reading) http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/
and search by make/model or location. There are several minivans that could
give you some ideas about what is possible. There are
some folks who charge with solar and wind. There are some that like to go
fast, there are some that like to go far, there are
minimalists and maximists (if thats is a word then there surely some of them).
So sit back and enjoy.
BTW, where in this world of ours are you located?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> csilver_public wrote:
>
> ...I've already received nearly 200
> individual messages, and my inbox is difficult to navigate as a result.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David,
The major MPG boost from Hybrids is associated with shutting the engine down
for half of the driving at low speed and all the standing still (traffic
lights and such).
Keeping the engine idling will defeat most of that benefit, because the
idling engine will consume about as much gas as when it is run at light duty
(driving slow, coasting).
If you can shut the engine off you would get much more benefit, although
that may not always be as easy as it sounds - dependent on what is powered
by the engine and if you have an automatic transmission.
It sure is a good way to start and see if this brings you any benefit.
Others start by building an e-Bike or go-cart, to get experience before
starting on their car. You start at the big end, but limit the ambition.
That can work and it will sure give you a lot of experience.
Regarding chargers,
you can make anything work. It just depends on how much you want to be
involved in every day charging of your batteries.
Personally I am still using a stack of (free) 48V switching power supplies
(telecom type equipment) plus a lab supply that can do 0-65V 0-30A so I use
that to dial in the I-U characteristic (max current, max voltage) dependent
on temp and other parameters, such as equalization charge or maintenance
charge.
If you like a plug-it-in-and-forget-about-it then you need a smart charger
with automatic shutdown and programmable charge profile to match your
batteries.
Look in the Evalbum to see what others use in their setups.
Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Hrivnak
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 6:17 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Battery charger recommendation
I was wondering if you could give me some advice on a good charger for my
hybrid conversion plan.
I am planning 2 strings of 6 12V AGM batteries for 72V total. The total
battery cost will run me about $1000
To charge them I am trying to decide among three options.
1) Schumacher SE-1072 - $200, this is basically a 10 amp dumb
charger and I would probably need to add a timer.
2) Zivan NG1 - $600 this seems to have some reasonable battery
management
3) Manzanita PFC-20 - $1700 This seems like a first class charger
but the price is high
As usual price does matter but I prefer not to ruin my batteries
prematurely. I am worried the lower cost Schumacher could cook the
batteries. Yet for the cost of Manzanita I could replace my battery pack
twice. I was hoping to find something that will last 3 years and by then
replace with newer lithium so the goal is not to last for the longest
possible time. Do you have any suggestions for me? I even thought of 6
Soneil chargers but am not sure I can properly isolate the batteries so I
could charge at 12V but run the motor at 72V.
The batteries will be about 55 amphr so I am planning 110 amphrs at 72V.
I plan to charge them overnight, so a rapid charge is not important to me.
Thank you in advance for any comments or advice.
PS the project I am planning is a hybrid not a pure EV. I have a full size
Chevrolet 1500 series truck. I plan on leaving the ICE engine and then
adding an electric motor in series with a shortened driveshaft. So the
electric does not have to fully power the vehicle. I am however hoping the
electric motor can provide peak power so around town the ICE can more or
less idle giving me a MPG boost. So while I will still use gasoline I hope
to use less of it. If the project does not work out look for some great
deals on EV parts on eBay.
David J. Hrivnak
www.hrivnak.com
Personal Account WWJD?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is OT, but I'll give brief answer about the way it works.
This company will make money because you keep paying them for
electricity *their* panel makes for you; the same
amount as you pay now to your utility company, it is measured by
the same utility meter. So you get regular bills.
Panels designed per your average load. If you need more - you buy from
utility extra power. If you need less excess being fed into the grid
and you sell it to utility (at whatever rate they accept it).
You rent the panels, they
are not yours - at the end of the term they remove it from your roof.
Since company does not pay for electricity but you pay to them,
they make money so long as your monthly payment exceed depreciation
rate. At the end of the term they remove their property from your roof
and can install to the next customer's.
You save money only because you fix your rate per kWh for the
contract term (up to 25 years) while you can't do this with
utility company. Assumption is rates will go up, but with solar
they stay the same so you save only on the difference.
If utility rates would stay the same you wouldn't save anything, but
you loose nothing too - they take care of everything, like rental
car. Only good thing you'd use clean power. The only way to loose
money in this deal is if utility rate becomes lower in future than your
fixed rate with this company (initially they match utility's rate
at the time of signing contract). But lower energy cost while
possible is unlikely. This is your bet. Look at historical data
for past 10-20 years in your area - chances are trend will continue.
But even if it's not, at least you substitute dirty power for clean at
no cost to you, which in any case is good deal: many agree to pay
a bit more per kWh just to get it from clean sources.
Again, please take discussion on this off EVDL, even if solar is
meant to recharge your EV: EV isn't being discussed here.
Victor
JS wrote:
Jerry McIntire wrote:
Ryan,
My wife works in this field. Everyone in her office has the same
question, "How can they possibly make any money doing this?"
They are counting on a new lower-cost silicon source AND a new
technology that has been announced but not put into production which
would increase the output from the less expensive, lower grade silicon
they propose using. They don't have systems ready to go, they are
fishing for money, and I wouldn't put any money in it because the
likelihood of you seeing a working solar system in return is very low.
They may be counting on government tax credits to turn a loss leader
into profits, but those incentives are awfully fickle.
Jerry
---------------------------------------
I have been watching NanoSolar.com with eager anticipation. I hope to
double my 4 KW solar when they become available,
but I fear they will sell all their production to commercial energy
companies and I will not see a reduction in solar prices.
John in Sylmar, CA
My EV eats up too much of my 5 kWh at the winter solstice.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All you need is some $$$ and you can build ANYTHING you want. The
time is available. The resources, the parts, the people, the
knowledge. How about the money for the parts? That's the greatest
hindrance for all of us.
Here is what I could tentatively buy if funds allowed:
$4900 * 13" WarP
$4850 * Zilla
$1550 * PFC-20 (minimum, PFC40/50+ likely, 75 even..)
$2250 * Odyssey PC680 (30ct) ($4500 for 60, 2 strings @ 360V total)
---------
$13,550
Still not fast enough though...
If I had the above; how could I make it go even faster(1/4 mile)?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All:
A customer of mine has purchased top of the line components
to convert his Porsche but now realizing he is not in the
position to complete the project for his personal reasons.
He decided to sell it at reduced cost, still unpacked in the crate.
What is included:
1. Siemens power inverter, model SIMOVERT 6SV-1, 110-350VDC, integrated
60A DC-DC converter, separate main and precharge
contactors included
2. Siemens 3 phase EV AC PM synchronous motor, type 1PV5135WS14
rated power 45 kW (1 hr), splined shaft
3. Throttle position sensor (Wabash)
4. Inverter interface cable for the motor encoder
5. RS232C PC interface cable
6. Inverter installation manual
7. PC software on FD
8. PC software user manual
9. NLG513-SA BRUSA battery charger
10. Mains cable set for NLG513-SA
11. Battery cable set for NLG513-SA
12. Bosch PA66 auxiliary water pump
13. MES-DEA 70/6E 12V vacuum pump
14. BRUSA BCM220 Ah counter with 100A shunt (0-250A measurement range)
15. MES-DEA RM4 4kW 200-450 VDC fluid heater
10 years warranty for the motor and inverter will be transferred
to the new purchaser. Warranty for other components is standard for
respective manufacturer.
I'm assuming he will be willing to sell all the components only
together, but ultimately it's up to him.
If you're interested please call him directly and discuss details.
His name is Eugene, with his permission, here is his phone number:
267-471-3475. He's located in Staten Island (New York) and the system
is currently there as well.
I'm only passing on this info per his wish (he is not on EVDL),
but I'm not being part of negotiations or any business, just helping
sell something he no longer has need for. Please do not ask me any
questions related to this business -it's entirely between him and you.
He purchased this system from Metric Mind in mid October last year.
If no listers will take it, he may decide to list it on trading post
or just ebay it. I don't really know. I wish the system will find
good home...
Good luck,
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Welcome to the group. I think the Sprinter is a perfect canidate for what you
have in mind. For eff. I would go AC. This will help you decide
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/motor.htm
I have crunched some numbers. Lio ion are great batteries but would take a
$50 grand investment. I suggest you deal with the weight and choose AGM
batteries. Your Sprinter with its diesel knocks down 25 mpg, so with an AC
motor I would guess around 350 whr/mile. So to have a 75 mile range would
require a bank of 27kw/hr. AGM's would weigh 1900 lbs. In your travels, when
you max out your range pull into an RV park for an overnight stay. This would
top off your dischared batteries overnight. If you have room for 1000 watts in
panels and can get 9 hours exposure, then you need 3 days to recharge.
Bob
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi there,
I just joined this list yesterday, and I've considered going electric
for quite some time but only started seriously researching it last
week. I'm not really "into" cars as it were, I just use them to get
from point A to point B, but my uncle's a mechanic with over 30-35
years' experience and has agreed to help me do a conversion, and
although he seemed to be somewhat familiar with the terminology and
other information I've learned from my research, I don't think he's
ever actually done an EV conversion before. But he said he was
willing to help me out, so I have started collecting as many details
as possible. I've found parts suppliers, online instructions from
others who have done their own conversions, and lots of enthusiasm
for EVs in general; I have also, however, found much conflicting
information about what is and isn't possible, along with a lot of
gloom-and-doom nay-sayers who insist none of the effort is worth the
end result. I am convinced this is something I want to do, but I have
to get the logistics worked out and figure out how I can make it work
for my situation. Perhaps some of you could help me.
This message is long; I apologize; I'm very serious about learning
how to do this properly, so I may seem a bit overzealous in my
enthusiasm.
First, do ALL conversions have to be tiny cars? I love the tiny cars
as a rule, but for this application it's not possible. I'm not
looking to convert a behemoth or anything, as I'm just as disgusted
by those as many EV enthusiasts are. The vehicle I'm hoping to
convert is something like a Dodge Sprinter (the short body 118"
version, which is about the length of a mini-van, but I need to get
the high roof version, which measures 73" or 6 ft standing room from
floor to ceiling), and it will be empty when I start except for the
front driver/passenger seats. I won't be loading it up with junk,
just modest camping/office accommodations and I'll be powering all my
electricity-requiring stuff by a solar panel. I need enough power to
propel the vehicle at highway-legal speeds for as long of a range as
possible given the current battery technologies available (perhaps
Lithium-Polymer, as suggested on a site by a guy who outlined his
conversion in detail), but I'm not pre-occupied with any of the
performance-type concerns of sports car people. 55-65 mph would be
plenty, as long as it won't creep like a turtle while going up a
hill. It needs to transport me and my two small lap-size dogs, plus
my gear, which is miniscule compared to most people's standards, and
I'd like to use regenerative braking to help with some of the energy
generation, plus I'd like to connect solar panels (separate from the
one that will run my laptop, etc.), NOT to recharge while driving
necessarily as I've read that doesn't really work all that well, but
instead to recharge on the days I'm NOT driving, such as while
sitting in a national park or campground. So I need to find
instructions on how to actually hook up the batteries to roof-mounted
solar panels rather than stationary panels at a home location. It
will be much lighter overall than a factory-built camper van, as I
will be building the interior myself, sans most of the heavy stuff
they usually stick in those things.
Whew, that was a mouthful. I may have forgotten something, but I'm
sure it'll come out during the course of this discussion.
I'll be fully self-contained for extended periods in this vehicle,
taking photographs, writing essays, and remotely working with my
laptop and wireless card. I will plug into grid power when available,
but I don't want to have to rely on any outside sources during my
travels. I realize that I won't be able to drive every day because
some days will be "charging only" days, and I know I'm not going to
be able to drive for hours and hours without stopping (unless I can
find some feasible batteries that provide more range than what I've
been able to find thus far). Although the vehicle will be for long-
distance travel, it's not like a race or anything. It's for driving a
couple hours, then stopping to work for several hours and take
photographs at various locations during daylight hours then charging
the batteries the next day while working on-site, then heading off
the next day with a full charge. During this time, I'll be doing
multiple things: freelancing, operating a website, and working on a
doctorate, and I plan to travel only where it's not cold (spring/
summer/fall in colder climates, year-round in places with warm
climates). But becoming energy-independent is very important to me
and I am determined to alleviate fossil fuels.
I hope I'm explaining this clearly enough, as I know I can get chatty
and ramble on when I get excited.
I also realize that what I'm proposing will probably draw a lot of
negative responses from people who say it's just not possible, but I
don't care, I'm going to do it anyway, so the more helpful
information I can collect the better. I will find a way to make it
work successfully; it's just non-negotiable. I won't give up until I
figure it out; it's an integral part of my overall mission. If I need
to make certain concessions in some places to make it work, then I'll
consider that once all alternatives have proven ineffective.
Second major issue: I need to figure out the maximum number of
batteries I can put into the thing without it weighing me down so
much that it negates their value. I also would prefer not to blow up,
of course. ;-) From what I've read so far, it appears that for my
application, AC would be better than DC, but correct me if you think
I'm mistaken. I'm wondering if it's possible to mount batteries
underneath the van, as there's extra space not available in a small
car (much like those who convert pickups put batteries in the truck
bed), and how far above the ground do the need to be, etc? What's the
maximum amps each battery can have, as I've found deep-cycle
batteries available up to over 200 amp hours. I'm probably going to
need 12-volt instead of 6-volt, but I could be wrong there too.
How many batteries can go with each controller, motor, etc? Is it
possible to have two separate systems that I can flip a switch
between? For example, to run the vehicle off one set while charging
the other via solar? This may sound silly, but I haven't found any
info yet that specifically says this is impossible, so I have to ask.
I need to be as economical as humanly possible given the parameters I
need to achieve, so any details about how much all this will cost
(except the solar, as I've already found the info I need about that)
and where to get the best deal on the electric conversion parts would
be most appreciated.
OK, I've wasted enough of your time tonight; hopefully I will learn
more about this from all of you.
One last question: Is it possible to receive these messages in digest
format? I only joined yesterday and I've already received nearly 200
individual messages, and my inbox is difficult to navigate as a result.
If you've actually read this far, thanks a bunch for your time,
Crystal :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Crystal,
It is mainly your attitude that will make you find a solution that will work
for you, so don't give up ;-)
There have been several different EV vans over the years, some
home-conversion, some factory conversions.
The lighter the basis (micro-van) the larger your range will be.
Dependent on how much weight the van can carry (after suspension
improvement), you can add between 1/2 the empty weight and the same weight
as the van in batteries, so the end result is a vehicle with a weight
divided between
batteries and the rest of about 1/3 to half the total weight being
batteries.
When getting close to half, the increase in capacity is counter-acted by the
increase in weight and energy to accelerate, so it depends on the type of
driving where there is no more gain. In the city you may want to stay below
1/3 to avoid the waste in every stop-n-go, while constant speed highway
driving can still be extended with more capacity at 1/2 the vehicle weight,
so it is more determined by practical parameters how much you can place in
the vehicle and your budget.
My own vehicle is an S10 pickup which weighs about 3000 lbs excluding
batteries and I have added 1800 lbs of batteries for a range of max 60
miles, but I would consider this a larger-than-I-need vehicle. I have it
because it was the easiest way to get an EV (the only freeway capable EV I
could buy).
Ground clearance is a design parameter, there is no single good or bad, but
if your trip brings you to unpaved roads then I suggest you keep everything
at least 8" or thereabouts from the ground. If the vehicle itself sits
lower, then the battery boxes can extend lower as well. Watch out with
extending beyond the wheels in front or aft, as you could hit speed bumps
and curbs when they are not at least 6 to 8" from the ground. Building a box
that extends between the wheels to match the side of the vehicle is OK.
Many trucks have boxes *below* the bed to utilize that dead space and keep
the cargo capability.
Some numbers on solar recharging: roughly 10 square feet gives you 100W in
real life, with panels aimed at the sun. Throughout a long sunny (summer)
day you may have 8 hours of full sun on your panels max, more common is
around 5 hours. So a single 10 square feet panel gives you approximately 1/2
kWh (100W x 5hours) in a day.
If you drive your van 50 miles from the nearest power outlet and you can
make the van very efficient, so it uses less than 250Wh per mile, you will
consume at least 12 kWh from the battery pack, which must be replaced by the
solar panels. That means you will need 24 panels of 10 square feet (or 12
panels of 20 square feet) to re-charge your van in a day of sunlight.
Maybe you can use the panels during most of both days if you drive only a
short period (one hour or so) every other day, so you may get up to 10 hours
of sun, which brings the requirement down to 12 panels of 10 square feet
(usually advertised as 120W to 140W panels) or 6 panels of 20 square feet
(around 250W panels).
If you can recharge your van somewhere within 10 miles distance, you would
only need to put 2.5kWh back into the pack to make it there, so with 3
panels of 10 square feet you would be OK. It all depends on what is
acceptable to you and if you are OK living with the constraints, you can
make the situation work within a very moderate budget.
In general, AC solutions are more expensive than DC solutions.
Flooded lead acid batteries are the cheapest and most forgiving type
batteries, especially the abundantly available Golf Cart type, but need some
maintenance (watering) every few months, so you need to have access and they
need to be separated from the interior of the vehicle due to dangerous
fumes, so you need to have a closed battery box with venting to the outside
(tubes or fan)
There are many more considerations and details to think about - please
browse the evalbum and see what others have done to get an idea.
If you post rough estimates on your range, budget and type of vehicle you
like, you can get more detailed replies on whether that can work and how to
make it work.
I promise you - you are in for a great time with a lot of learning
opportunities and the saying it that the wise learn from the experience of
others, the rest needs to make their own mistakes. I do not say you have no
right to your own mistakes, but there is a way to avoid most of them, unless
you are breaking new ground ;-)
Hope this helps,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:52 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: First post
Hi there,
I just joined this list yesterday, and I've considered going electric for
quite some time but only started seriously researching it last week. I'm not
really "into" cars as it were, I just use them to get from point A to point
B, but my uncle's a mechanic with over 30-35 years' experience and has
agreed to help me do a conversion, and although he seemed to be somewhat
familiar with the terminology and other information I've learned from my
research, I don't think he's ever actually done an EV conversion before. But
he said he was willing to help me out, so I have started collecting as many
details as possible. I've found parts suppliers, online instructions from
others who have done their own conversions, and lots of enthusiasm for EVs
in general; I have also, however, found much conflicting information about
what is and isn't possible, along with a lot of gloom-and-doom nay-sayers
who insist none of the effort is worth the end result. I am convinced this
is something I want to do, but I have to get the logistics worked out and
figure out how I can make it work for my situation. Perhaps some of you
could help me.
This message is long; I apologize; I'm very serious about learning how to do
this properly, so I may seem a bit overzealous in my enthusiasm.
First, do ALL conversions have to be tiny cars? I love the tiny cars as a
rule, but for this application it's not possible. I'm not looking to convert
a behemoth or anything, as I'm just as disgusted by those as many EV
enthusiasts are. The vehicle I'm hoping to convert is something like a Dodge
Sprinter (the short body 118"
version, which is about the length of a mini-van, but I need to get the high
roof version, which measures 73" or 6 ft standing room from floor to
ceiling), and it will be empty when I start except for the front
driver/passenger seats. I won't be loading it up with junk, just modest
camping/office accommodations and I'll be powering all my
electricity-requiring stuff by a solar panel. I need enough power to propel
the vehicle at highway-legal speeds for as long of a range as possible given
the current battery technologies available (perhaps Lithium-Polymer, as
suggested on a site by a guy who outlined his conversion in detail), but I'm
not pre-occupied with any of the performance-type concerns of sports car
people. 55-65 mph would be plenty, as long as it won't creep like a turtle
while going up a hill. It needs to transport me and my two small lap-size
dogs, plus my gear, which is miniscule compared to most people's standards,
and I'd like to use regenerative braking to help with some of the energy
generation, plus I'd like to connect solar panels (separate from the one
that will run my laptop, etc.), NOT to recharge while driving necessarily as
I've read that doesn't really work all that well, but instead to recharge on
the days I'm NOT driving, such as while sitting in a national park or
campground. So I need to find instructions on how to actually hook up the
batteries to roof-mounted solar panels rather than stationary panels at a
home location. It will be much lighter overall than a factory-built camper
van, as I will be building the interior myself, sans most of the heavy stuff
they usually stick in those things.
Whew, that was a mouthful. I may have forgotten something, but I'm sure
it'll come out during the course of this discussion.
I'll be fully self-contained for extended periods in this vehicle, taking
photographs, writing essays, and remotely working with my laptop and
wireless card. I will plug into grid power when available, but I don't want
to have to rely on any outside sources during my travels. I realize that I
won't be able to drive every day because some days will be "charging only"
days, and I know I'm not going to be able to drive for hours and hours
without stopping (unless I can find some feasible batteries that provide
more range than what I've been able to find thus far). Although the vehicle
will be for long- distance travel, it's not like a race or anything. It's
for driving a couple hours, then stopping to work for several hours and take
photographs at various locations during daylight hours then charging the
batteries the next day while working on-site, then heading off the next day
with a full charge. During this time, I'll be doing multiple things:
freelancing, operating a website, and working on a doctorate, and I plan to
travel only where it's not cold (spring/ summer/fall in colder climates,
year-round in places with warm climates). But becoming energy-independent is
very important to me and I am determined to alleviate fossil fuels.
I hope I'm explaining this clearly enough, as I know I can get chatty and
ramble on when I get excited.
I also realize that what I'm proposing will probably draw a lot of negative
responses from people who say it's just not possible, but I don't care, I'm
going to do it anyway, so the more helpful information I can collect the
better. I will find a way to make it work successfully; it's just
non-negotiable. I won't give up until I figure it out; it's an integral part
of my overall mission. If I need to make certain concessions in some places
to make it work, then I'll consider that once all alternatives have proven
ineffective.
Second major issue: I need to figure out the maximum number of batteries I
can put into the thing without it weighing me down so much that it negates
their value. I also would prefer not to blow up, of course. ;-) From what
I've read so far, it appears that for my application, AC would be better
than DC, but correct me if you think I'm mistaken. I'm wondering if it's
possible to mount batteries underneath the van, as there's extra space not
available in a small car (much like those who convert pickups put batteries
in the truck bed), and how far above the ground do the need to be, etc?
What's the maximum amps each battery can have, as I've found deep-cycle
batteries available up to over 200 amp hours. I'm probably going to need
12-volt instead of 6-volt, but I could be wrong there too.
How many batteries can go with each controller, motor, etc? Is it possible
to have two separate systems that I can flip a switch between? For example,
to run the vehicle off one set while charging the other via solar? This may
sound silly, but I haven't found any info yet that specifically says this is
impossible, so I have to ask.
I need to be as economical as humanly possible given the parameters I need
to achieve, so any details about how much all this will cost (except the
solar, as I've already found the info I need about that) and where to get
the best deal on the electric conversion parts would be most appreciated.
OK, I've wasted enough of your time tonight; hopefully I will learn more
about this from all of you.
One last question: Is it possible to receive these messages in digest
format? I only joined yesterday and I've already received nearly 200
individual messages, and my inbox is difficult to navigate as a result.
If you've actually read this far, thanks a bunch for your time,
Crystal :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Listers,
/introduction
I'm pleased to announce that my European partner HEC has
restructured and expanded his EV business and introducing
freshly created web site for his new company: http://www.evisol.com
EVISOL stands for EV Integrated SOLutions. I have visited EVISOL in the
Netherlands couple of month ago. The company is in a better position
now to deliver top end EV components then was HEC few years ago.
Please take a peek at the site. The focus of the company remains at
liquid cooled AC motors and power inverters; development of other
components such as DC-DC converters chargers etc. will follow after
inverters will be ready for production (anticipated this spring/summer).
Complete integrated solutions for EVs is ultimate goal for the company.
HEC will gradually phase out its operation as EVISOL takes over.
EVISOL is in good cooperation with Siemens and top of the line
motors will be available. If seldom requested and thus not stocked
models are desired, they can always be built to order, though granted
at higher cost. As before, OEM quality components will be made
available to small businesses building EVs and to individual people.
Also as before, obtaining and supporting any components from EVISOL in
USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand will be handled by Metric Mind;
European customers (and those outside four counties mentioned above)
should contact EVISOL directly. Plan is to make power hardware designed
by EVISOL and instrumentation designed by Metric Mind (EVision, BMS)
compatible so that it can be easily integrated in one vehicle.
It is this cooperation which allows to concentrate on one or few areas
of strongest expertise makes combined solutions strong contender in the
market.
As soon key hardware is released by EVISOL and becomes available,
I'll keep EVDL members informed Of course information on Metric Mind web
site will reflect that - all info about EVISOL hardware on both sites
is always coordinated.
/end of introduction
Thank you all,
Victor
Metric Mind Engineering
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I love to switch to "green electricity", where PG&E currently leaves me no
choice, only allow TOU meter but not buy green. This is a rental house, so
it may not work - I'll check into the details as it would really be a boon
to fill the EV up with renewable electricity.
Funny how close EV and PV are related that you even slip on it:
> EV isn't being discussed here.
I guess you meant PV is not discussed on this list, alternatively you may
have said that the subject EV is not touched in this thread, which makes it
inappropriate (OT).
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:31 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: OT: Re: Affordable Solar
This is OT, but I'll give brief answer about the way it works.
This company will make money because you keep paying them for electricity
*their* panel makes for you; the same amount as you pay now to your utility
company, it is measured by the same utility meter. So you get regular bills.
Panels designed per your average load. If you need more - you buy from
utility extra power. If you need less excess being fed into the grid and you
sell it to utility (at whatever rate they accept it).
You rent the panels, they
are not yours - at the end of the term they remove it from your roof.
Since company does not pay for electricity but you pay to them, they make
money so long as your monthly payment exceed depreciation rate. At the end
of the term they remove their property from your roof and can install to the
next customer's.
You save money only because you fix your rate per kWh for the contract term
(up to 25 years) while you can't do this with utility company. Assumption is
rates will go up, but with solar they stay the same so you save only on the
difference.
If utility rates would stay the same you wouldn't save anything, but you
loose nothing too - they take care of everything, like rental car. Only good
thing you'd use clean power. The only way to loose money in this deal is if
utility rate becomes lower in future than your fixed rate with this company
(initially they match utility's rate at the time of signing contract). But
lower energy cost while possible is unlikely. This is your bet. Look at
historical data for past 10-20 years in your area - chances are trend will
continue.
But even if it's not, at least you substitute dirty power for clean at no
cost to you, which in any case is good deal: many agree to pay a bit more
per kWh just to get it from clean sources.
Again, please take discussion on this off EVDL, even if solar is meant to
recharge your EV: EV isn't being discussed here.
Victor
JS wrote:
> Jerry McIntire wrote:
>> Ryan,
>>
>> My wife works in this field. Everyone in her office has the same
>> question, "How can they possibly make any money doing this?"
>>
>> They are counting on a new lower-cost silicon source AND a new
>> technology that has been announced but not put into production which
>> would increase the output from the less expensive, lower grade
>> silicon they propose using. They don't have systems ready to go,
>> they are fishing for money, and I wouldn't put any money in it
>> because the likelihood of you seeing a working solar system in return is
very low.
>>
>> They may be counting on government tax credits to turn a loss leader
>> into profits, but those incentives are awfully fickle.
>>
>> Jerry
>
>> ---------------------------------------
> I have been watching NanoSolar.com with eager anticipation. I hope to
> double my 4 KW solar when they become available, but I fear they will
> sell all their production to commercial energy companies and I will
> not see a reduction in solar prices.
> John in Sylmar, CA
> My EV eats up too much of my 5 kWh at the winter solstice.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EV1, Tesla, Tango
If you had one of these(or all of them), and you wanted to mod them
for even more 1/4 mile performance; how would you do so?
If you could buy an electric Vette or Mustang or import; how would you
mod it for more performance?
The motor is a motor. Swap it out for another?
Mod the controller/inverter? Highly unlikely. Most likely
impossible? Anyone modded their Zilla for 450v and 2500+ amps?
Probably will never happen in the history of man. If I had a large
sum of money; I'd bet on it.
Batteries? Can't really pump up the voltage when already at the
limits of the controller/inverter.
So in a plausible future time if EV's were common place; would it be
possible to mod them for increased performance?
-----
Bonus story
I was at work sitting in my truck noticing all the other trucks in the
parking lot and the stark contrast to all the Hondas in the parking
lot. I thought "I ought to get one of those to commute to work in."
I'll convert my truck over to electric. Drive the Honda when the
weather is nice. I want an ~$800 Honda. Strip it down to the bare
unibody, put it on a rotissery, inspect it and paint it a nice color
inside and out, and underneath. Meticulously reassemble it. Need a
$2,000 aftermarket block for it(at what hp limit does the stock block
fail and what is it's mode of failure?). Stroker
kit(crank/rods/pistons)$1,400. Aftermarket head(too much).
Turbo(cheap). Megasquirt for the EFI(fair). 450+hp minimum. 600+hp
desired. Need a trans that's up to it. Biggest drag radials I can
fit. Commuting to work in my Honda just like everyone else... Good
times. Get the Stang up to about 1400+hp on E85(~105 octane).
"2,000hp" car on the street. Though really, they have tuned down to
"~1,000hp"...
http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/videos/turbo/BUTCHINLOW.wmv
http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/videos/turbo/BUTCHINHIGH.wmv
http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/
I see their 3,000hp motor and think "how do you mod it for 3,500?"
Then when that's done "how about 4,000hp?" More is never enough.
What size motor for the electric truck? How many? I want maximum
performance and range. My commute is ~20+ miles at 70+mph one way.
Can't charge at work. No lights, no nothing in that parking lot and
fenced off and far, far away from any building. GM says the battery
doesn't exist. They don't fancy the thought of ~15,000 A123's all
interconnected. Now if A123 made a large format battery... Why can't
they and what's stopping them considering all those millions of
dollars they have recently received? Is their battery scalable? Can
it be made in any size and shape? How about 1' square cubes? What
would be the most desirable, convenient, and useful size/shape? A 12
volt A123 deep cycle SLA battery? What year do you predict lithium
will be able to compete with lead on price?
--- End Message ---
