EV Digest 6423
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: First post
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Flooded Battery State of Charge Question
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Solectria AC system: #AC24 and #DMOC445 $6.5k. Good or not?
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Lithium Technology, Innosys complete electric car conversion
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Solectria AC system: #AC24 and #DMOC445 $6.5k. Good or not?
by "Will Beckett \(becketts\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: When EV's go OEM (the performance aspect)
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: When EV's go OEM (the performance aspect)
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Lithium Technology, Innosys complete electric car conversion
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Introductions
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Commutator Controller
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Introductions
by "Don Moyes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Lithium Technology, Innosys complete electric car conversion
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Soft-linking WAS/ Cost to drive a EV
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Crystal, welcome to the List! My advice to you would be to first get a
better understanding of how much energy it takes to move a vehicle down the
road. Then get a very clear idea about the amount of energy that you can get
in a full day of sunshine with the amount of solar panels you can carry
onboard. Here is a simplified example. Let us say that you had a 120 volt
system. To charge this you would need 10 panels. Let us say they put out 4
amps in good sunlight. Consider you are running 20, 6 volt Trojan T105 which
is probably the most used battery in conversions. They are about a 220
amp/hr battery if my memory serves me right. That is on the 20 hour rate.
The designation of that battery as T105 means that it can draw 75 amps for
105 minutes. In those 105 minutes you would have consumed 131.35 amp/hrs. To
put those amps back in the battery it will take your ten panels almost 33
hours. You are looking at roughly four days to charge your vehicle so that
you could travel less than one hour. The next question is, where do you put
those ten panels. If you could only carry 5 panels then it would take over a
week to charge. Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to discourage you. I can
see that your mind is set on this project. I have often thought of
converting a fairly large motor home. They can hold a lot of batteries and
you could go from RV park to RV park and the charge for your space includes
electricity so you could plug in and fuel up. The best solution is to invest
in a charger such as the Manzanita Micro PFC 50 charger and do rapid
charges. This way you could do quite a few miles per day when you wanted to.
Here is one of the better FAQs on batteries that I have come across. You
will learn much here: http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm
Concerning Lithium batteries, yes they will get you a lot of range but since
it was not your staff of highly paid engineers that contacted this list I am
going to assume that you are not a multi millionaire :-) At this time in
history they are not affordable for us mere mortals. To see
Daimler/Chrysler's Plug-In hybrid electric Sprinter van check out the
following link. They have been in tests in the US for several years now:
Rumor has it that GM may come out with this type of technology within
several years if Daimler/Chrysler tells them how to do it ;-)
http://www.debis.lt/dccom/0-5-7165-1-456546-1-0-0-0-0-0-1371-7165-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.html
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:52 PM
Subject: First post
Hi there,
I just joined this list yesterday, and I've considered going electric for
quite some time but only started seriously researching it last week. I'm
not really "into" cars as it were, I just use them to get from point A to
point B, but my uncle's a mechanic with over 30-35 years' experience and
has agreed to help me do a conversion, and although he seemed to be
somewhat familiar with the terminology and other information I've learned
from my research, I don't think he's ever actually done an EV conversion
before. But he said he was willing to help me out, so I have started
collecting as many details as possible. I've found parts suppliers,
online instructions from others who have done their own conversions, and
lots of enthusiasm for EVs in general; I have also, however, found much
conflicting information about what is and isn't possible, along with a
lot of gloom-and-doom nay-sayers who insist none of the effort is worth
the end result. I am convinced this is something I want to do, but I have
to get the logistics worked out and figure out how I can make it work for
my situation. Perhaps some of you could help me.
This message is long; I apologize; I'm very serious about learning how to
do this properly, so I may seem a bit overzealous in my enthusiasm.
First, do ALL conversions have to be tiny cars? I love the tiny cars as a
rule, but for this application it's not possible. I'm not looking to
convert a behemoth or anything, as I'm just as disgusted by those as many
EV enthusiasts are. The vehicle I'm hoping to convert is something like a
Dodge Sprinter (the short body 118" version, which is about the length of
a mini-van, but I need to get the high roof version, which measures 73"
or 6 ft standing room from floor to ceiling), and it will be empty when I
start except for the front driver/passenger seats. I won't be loading it
up with junk, just modest camping/office accommodations and I'll be
powering all my electricity-requiring stuff by a solar panel. I need
enough power to propel the vehicle at highway-legal speeds for as long of
a range as possible given the current battery technologies available
(perhaps Lithium-Polymer, as suggested on a site by a guy who outlined
his conversion in detail), but I'm not pre-occupied with any of the
performance-type concerns of sports car people. 55-65 mph would be
plenty, as long as it won't creep like a turtle while going up a hill. It
needs to transport me and my two small lap-size dogs, plus my gear, which
is miniscule compared to most people's standards, and I'd like to use
regenerative braking to help with some of the energy generation, plus I'd
like to connect solar panels (separate from the one that will run my
laptop, etc.), NOT to recharge while driving necessarily as I've read
that doesn't really work all that well, but instead to recharge on the
days I'm NOT driving, such as while sitting in a national park or
campground. So I need to find instructions on how to actually hook up the
batteries to roof-mounted solar panels rather than stationary panels at a
home location. It will be much lighter overall than a factory-built
camper van, as I will be building the interior myself, sans most of the
heavy stuff they usually stick in those things.
Whew, that was a mouthful. I may have forgotten something, but I'm sure
it'll come out during the course of this discussion.
I'll be fully self-contained for extended periods in this vehicle, taking
photographs, writing essays, and remotely working with my laptop and
wireless card. I will plug into grid power when available, but I don't
want to have to rely on any outside sources during my travels. I realize
that I won't be able to drive every day because some days will be
"charging only" days, and I know I'm not going to be able to drive for
hours and hours without stopping (unless I can find some feasible
batteries that provide more range than what I've been able to find thus
far). Although the vehicle will be for long- distance travel, it's not
like a race or anything. It's for driving a couple hours, then stopping
to work for several hours and take photographs at various locations
during daylight hours then charging the batteries the next day while
working on-site, then heading off the next day with a full charge. During
this time, I'll be doing multiple things: freelancing, operating a
website, and working on a doctorate, and I plan to travel only where it's
not cold (spring/ summer/fall in colder climates, year-round in places
with warm climates). But becoming energy-independent is very important to
me and I am determined to alleviate fossil fuels.
I hope I'm explaining this clearly enough, as I know I can get chatty and
ramble on when I get excited.
I also realize that what I'm proposing will probably draw a lot of
negative responses from people who say it's just not possible, but I
don't care, I'm going to do it anyway, so the more helpful information I
can collect the better. I will find a way to make it work successfully;
it's just non-negotiable. I won't give up until I figure it out; it's an
integral part of my overall mission. If I need to make certain
concessions in some places to make it work, then I'll consider that once
all alternatives have proven ineffective.
Second major issue: I need to figure out the maximum number of batteries
I can put into the thing without it weighing me down so much that it
negates their value. I also would prefer not to blow up, of course. ;-)
From what I've read so far, it appears that for my application, AC would
be better than DC, but correct me if you think I'm mistaken. I'm
wondering if it's possible to mount batteries underneath the van, as
there's extra space not available in a small car (much like those who
convert pickups put batteries in the truck bed), and how far above the
ground do the need to be, etc? What's the maximum amps each battery can
have, as I've found deep-cycle batteries available up to over 200 amp
hours. I'm probably going to need 12-volt instead of 6-volt, but I could
be wrong there too.
How many batteries can go with each controller, motor, etc? Is it
possible to have two separate systems that I can flip a switch between?
For example, to run the vehicle off one set while charging the other via
solar? This may sound silly, but I haven't found any info yet that
specifically says this is impossible, so I have to ask.
I need to be as economical as humanly possible given the parameters I
need to achieve, so any details about how much all this will cost (except
the solar, as I've already found the info I need about that) and where to
get the best deal on the electric conversion parts would be most
appreciated.
OK, I've wasted enough of your time tonight; hopefully I will learn more
about this from all of you.
One last question: Is it possible to receive these messages in digest
format? I only joined yesterday and I've already received nearly 200
individual messages, and my inbox is difficult to navigate as a result.
If you've actually read this far, thanks a bunch for your time,
Crystal :-)
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--- Begin Message ---
Nawaz, your reply got truncated probably because your email
software sent HTML-formatted text rather than plain ASCII.
I'm interested to hear your opinion on this, I'm sure
others do too. Could you please re-send your reply as
plain text?
Thank you,
Victor
p.s.
All people could see on the list from your reply is this:
Nawaz Qureshi wrote:
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--- Begin Message ---
>I think there are a large number of Solectrias that have been built using
>this setup. It would probably work just fine for a small car like a Geo
>Metro or Pontiac Firefly.
I'd compare pricing with that of Victor's offerings (Siemens) to see
if it's a decent deal. The power output per kilogram (or pound) is
quite good on the AC24 - it is actually quite a bit better than my
Solectria brushless DC setup (BRLS-16 + BRLS-240H) and brushless DC
motors usually have better power to weight ratios than induction.
The AC24 appears to me to be quite an advanced motor, the AC55
looks to me to be a rewound industrial lump of a motor, at least
by the power-to-weight and the prices.
Solectria Forces used a similar drivetrain - a bit older of an AC
induction motor. I do not know if they used the IGBT inverters or
the older MOSFET based inverters like the BRLS series used.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why do all these companies keep putting similar sized packs in the
vehicles and all get in the low 100 mile range? When will a company
install a monster pack the likes of which we have never seen before
and start breaking some range records? 200 mile range. 300 mile
range... Just for the fun of it, 1,000 mile range per charge? Would
it take a purpose built vehicle to do it? A base to support the
weight and facilitate the bulk. An aerodynamic shell to cover it.
Why couldn't it run 1,000 miles?
Even so, a full size Chevy truck with 100 mile range would absolutely
be a viable and desirable product IF THE PRICE WAS right. No fleet is
going to buy $90,000 pickup trucks. $16,000 is all the market will
bear. A lower price would sell even MORE vehicles. Fleets and
individuals alike. Low cost lithium. I'm sure it exists in OEM bulk
quantities. Maybe bring on some new players to the lithium supply
market?
"In the United States lithium is similarly recovered from brine pools
in Nevada."
"In 1998 it was about US$ 43 per pound ($95 per kg)."
"Chile is currently the leading lithium metal producer in the world,
with Argentina next. Both countries recover the lithium from brine
pools."
"China may emerge as a significant producer of brine-based lithium
carbonate towards the end of this decade. Potential capacity of up to
45,000 tonnes per year could come on-stream if projects in Qinghai
province and Tibet proceed."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a Solectria Force with AC. Works OK as long as the Freon is kept at
the correct level.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:31 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Solectria AC system: #AC24 and #DMOC445 $6.5k. Good or not?
I think there are a large number of Solectrias that have been built using
this setup. It would probably work just fine for a small car like a Geo
Metro or Pontiac Firefly.
There is a solectria forum on yahoo that would have much more specific
information.
Also contact electro auto directly - ask how many they have sold...
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dmitri
Sent: February 15, 2007 11:07 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Solectria AC system: #AC24 and #DMOC445 $6.5k. Good or not?
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/acmotors.shtml
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/accontrol.shtml
Looks really good for a small car. Any info on how well this works? How come
nobody is using this?? Even has contactors in controller.
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--- Begin Message ---
With the Tesla and Tango, you could change the gear ratios to optimize for 1/4
mile. You can also do this to a lesser degree by changing tire size. Drag
radials will help. You could go to lighter wheels, and plastic windows, and
possibly lighter seats. You could move some weight to be over the drive wheels
-- it'll hurt your cornering but help your 1/4 mile.
Electrically, I think the best bet would be to install a 2nd motor and 2nd
controller, rather than mod the existing stuff to be twice the power
Last thought: Maybe some clever person could get like 8 wrecked Honda Insights
and stack the electrical systems for alot of electrical power.
----- Original Message ----
From: Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EVDL <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:51:32 PM
Subject: When EV's go OEM (the performance aspect)
EV1, Tesla, Tango
If you had one of these(or all of them), and you wanted to mod them
for even more 1/4 mile performance; how would you do so?
If you could buy an electric Vette or Mustang or import; how would you
mod it for more performance?
The motor is a motor. Swap it out for another?
Mod the controller/inverter? Highly unlikely. Most likely
impossible? Anyone modded their Zilla for 450v and 2500+ amps?
Probably will never happen in the history of man. If I had a large
sum of money; I'd bet on it.
Batteries? Can't really pump up the voltage when already at the
limits of the controller/inverter.
So in a plausible future time if EV's were common place; would it be
possible to mod them for increased performance?
-----
Bonus story
I was at work sitting in my truck noticing all the other trucks in the
parking lot and the stark contrast to all the Hondas in the parking
lot. I thought "I ought to get one of those to commute to work in."
I'll convert my truck over to electric. Drive the Honda when the
weather is nice. I want an ~$800 Honda. Strip it down to the bare
unibody, put it on a rotissery, inspect it and paint it a nice color
inside and out, and underneath. Meticulously reassemble it. Need a
$2,000 aftermarket block for it(at what hp limit does the stock block
fail and what is it's mode of failure?). Stroker
kit(crank/rods/pistons)$1,400. Aftermarket head(too much).
Turbo(cheap). Megasquirt for the EFI(fair). 450+hp minimum. 600+hp
desired. Need a trans that's up to it. Biggest drag radials I can
fit. Commuting to work in my Honda just like everyone else... Good
times. Get the Stang up to about 1400+hp on E85(~105 octane).
"2,000hp" car on the street. Though really, they have tuned down to
"~1,000hp"...
http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/videos/turbo/BUTCHINLOW.wmv
http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/videos/turbo/BUTCHINHIGH.wmv
http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/
I see their 3,000hp motor and think "how do you mod it for 3,500?"
Then when that's done "how about 4,000hp?" More is never enough.
What size motor for the electric truck? How many? I want maximum
performance and range. My commute is ~20+ miles at 70+mph one way.
Can't charge at work. No lights, no nothing in that parking lot and
fenced off and far, far away from any building. GM says the battery
doesn't exist. They don't fancy the thought of ~15,000 A123's all
interconnected. Now if A123 made a large format battery... Why can't
they and what's stopping them considering all those millions of
dollars they have recently received? Is their battery scalable? Can
it be made in any size and shape? How about 1' square cubes? What
would be the most desirable, convenient, and useful size/shape? A 12
volt A123 deep cycle SLA battery? What year do you predict lithium
will be able to compete with lead on price?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Have a burning question?
Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2 11" motors, 2 Zilla 2k's (a quadzilla)?
Any stock rearends that'll take that today?
more mods = more fun
I don't think that will change. Because of the way economics works I don't
think there will a production vehicle that you can't
throw a mod on to make it better.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 9:52 PM
> To: EVDL
> Subject: When EV's go OEM (the performance aspect)
>
>
> EV1, Tesla, Tango
>
> If you had one of these(or all of them), and you wanted to mod them
> for even more 1/4 mile performance; how would you do so?
>
> If you could buy an electric Vette or Mustang or import; how would you
> mod it for more performance?
>
> The motor is a motor. Swap it out for another?
>
> Mod the controller/inverter? Highly unlikely. Most likely
> impossible? Anyone modded their Zilla for 450v and 2500+ amps?
> Probably will never happen in the history of man. If I had a large
> sum of money; I'd bet on it.
>
> Batteries? Can't really pump up the voltage when already at the
> limits of the controller/inverter.
>
> So in a plausible future time if EV's were common place; would it be
> possible to mod them for increased performance?
>
>
>
> -----
> Bonus story
>
> I was at work sitting in my truck noticing all the other trucks in the
> parking lot and the stark contrast to all the Hondas in the parking
> lot. I thought "I ought to get one of those to commute to work in."
> I'll convert my truck over to electric. Drive the Honda when the
> weather is nice. I want an ~$800 Honda. Strip it down to the bare
> unibody, put it on a rotissery, inspect it and paint it a nice color
> inside and out, and underneath. Meticulously reassemble it. Need a
> $2,000 aftermarket block for it(at what hp limit does the stock block
> fail and what is it's mode of failure?). Stroker
> kit(crank/rods/pistons)$1,400. Aftermarket head(too much).
> Turbo(cheap). Megasquirt for the EFI(fair). 450+hp minimum. 600+hp
> desired. Need a trans that's up to it. Biggest drag radials I can
> fit. Commuting to work in my Honda just like everyone else... Good
> times. Get the Stang up to about 1400+hp on E85(~105 octane).
>
> "2,000hp" car on the street. Though really, they have tuned down to
> "~1,000hp"...
>
> http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/videos/turbo/BUTCHINLOW.wmv
> http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/videos/turbo/BUTCHINHIGH.wmv
> http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/
>
> I see their 3,000hp motor and think "how do you mod it for 3,500?"
> Then when that's done "how about 4,000hp?" More is never enough.
>
> What size motor for the electric truck? How many? I want maximum
> performance and range. My commute is ~20+ miles at 70+mph one way.
> Can't charge at work. No lights, no nothing in that parking lot and
> fenced off and far, far away from any building. GM says the battery
> doesn't exist. They don't fancy the thought of ~15,000 A123's all
> interconnected. Now if A123 made a large format battery... Why can't
> they and what's stopping them considering all those millions of
> dollars they have recently received? Is their battery scalable? Can
> it be made in any size and shape? How about 1' square cubes? What
> would be the most desirable, convenient, and useful size/shape? A 12
> volt A123 deep cycle SLA battery? What year do you predict lithium
> will be able to compete with lead on price?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
just increase the price of gas to a point and the $90k truck WILL be economical
:-)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
> Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:07 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Lithium Technology, Innosys complete electric car
> conversion
>
>
> Why do all these companies keep putting similar sized packs in the
> vehicles and all get in the low 100 mile range? When will a company
> install a monster pack the likes of which we have never seen before
> and start breaking some range records? 200 mile range. 300 mile
> range... Just for the fun of it, 1,000 mile range per charge? Would
> it take a purpose built vehicle to do it? A base to support the
> weight and facilitate the bulk. An aerodynamic shell to cover it.
> Why couldn't it run 1,000 miles?
>
> Even so, a full size Chevy truck with 100 mile range would absolutely
> be a viable and desirable product IF THE PRICE WAS right. No fleet is
> going to buy $90,000 pickup trucks. $16,000 is all the market will
> bear. A lower price would sell even MORE vehicles. Fleets and
> individuals alike. Low cost lithium. I'm sure it exists in OEM bulk
> quantities. Maybe bring on some new players to the lithium supply
> market?
>
> "In the United States lithium is similarly recovered from brine pools
> in Nevada."
> "In 1998 it was about US$ 43 per pound ($95 per kg)."
>
> "Chile is currently the leading lithium metal producer in the world,
> with Argentina next. Both countries recover the lithium from brine
> pools."
>
> "China may emerge as a significant producer of brine-based lithium
> carbonate towards the end of this decade. Potential capacity of up to
> 45,000 tonnes per year could come on-stream if projects in Qinghai
> province and Tibet proceed."
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:10 PM 15/02/07 -0500, David Roden wrote:
On 15 Feb 2007 at 22:06, Ian Hooper wrote:
> So far the plans are fairly modest <snip>
We have several other members from Australia. Show of hands?
(waves) G'day from the South Island of Australia (Tasmania)
(For those not into the joke, Tasmania is an island state that lurks below
the continent of Australia, locally referred to as "the north island of
Tasmania")
1978 Daihatsu cab/chassis truck under conversion (on hold a bit until I
sort out a problem I've discovered with my motor), Zilla Z1k-LV, 120V of
optimas, custom charger based on Rudman regulators and a monitoring PLC. An
old Ransomes forklift motor is the intended motor, but whilst preparing it
I found that it had had its' fields badly overheated by the motor shop I
took it to when I first got it (they admitted to it and said it shouldn't
be a problem, 4 years later I found out what they actually did). I don't
know if I'll be winding myself some new fields, or going to another motor.
10 speed bicycle of unknown vintage, with a home-made controller and an
ex-pallet truck 24V hydraulic motor drive, no batteries and laid in the
corner of the store room. Built to be used for a reason that fell through,
so the batteries got robbed off and that was that. It's in the EVDL photo
album FWIW.
GSX 750 Suzuki motorcycle, 1979 BMW 528 IRS assembly, 6.7" Prestolite
compound motor and a bunch of other junk intended to become a trike - if I
can ever get the engineer to sit still long enough for me to go and see him
with my plans!
And a bunch of other junk - motors, contactors, fuses, meters, etc. that're
going to be parts of EVs in the future (maybe)
And my only fully in-use EV - my CAT M50 forklift. Original controller
(hope to change that in the near future), DC/DC converter for the beacon,
backup beeper and the RFID lockout system for access control that is in the
process of being fitted.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
G'day Chet, and All
At 02:08 PM 15/02/07 -0800, Chet wrote:
In still looking for a Plan B for my SepEx controller for my EVCort I was
really mulling over this idea of a 'commutator controller' and hoping the list
could give me a little more feedback on this crazy idea I have.
James Massey had posted some text art describing his idea which was
basically a
rotating commutator with a fixed brush and a movable brush such that it
behaves
like the PWM of an electronic controller, only done mechanically.
My questions are (assuming that the mechanical issues can be worked out to
even
make it work): What other issues would need to be addressed?
I've given it a bit more thought since then, and I can see the following
issues:
I know that
current limiting would need to be watched. Would arcing be an issue?
I can see arcing to be a significant problem, the more brushes the better
and the longer and narrower the brushes the better. As the commutating bar
passes from under the edge of the brush, the current is concentrated more
and more towards the edge of the brush, so the trailing edge of one brush
and the leading edge of the 'mating' brush will get seriously hammered, so
the longer and narrower the brushes, the better the spread will be. Current
limit is under the foot of the driver.
I will
still have some heavy duty capacitors between the 'controller' and the
batteries but what about freewheeling diodes?
Diodes will be absolutely necessary, without a heck of a lot of heavy
inductor design work - research 1900 to 1920 controllers to see that kind
of stuff. Capacitors may not help much - depending on commutator RPM
(switching speed).
Could I still get Regen and how would that work?
You would have no problem getting regen back to the RPMs where the
full-field/full armature occurs, below that you'd probably not get regen.
One other thought which somewhat complicates matters is the field control. I
could probably have a separate set of brushes for it. Even make the linkage
allow for the ramp up and then taper off for the field weakening.
You could make two seperate sets - one heavy set for the armature, one
lighter set for the field. Synchronising the two may allow that the two
sets may be able to run from one lever arm - offset so that the field set
does not start to break until the armature set is fully overlapping (100% on).
On the matter of regen. I'm not exactly sure the sequence of events. Full
field
and then slowly increment the PWM of the armature?
Yes, 100% field (assuming your field can take 100% voltage of your pack)
How about voltage limit?
Should I use some sort of Zener Diodes or could I just allow whatever voltage
was generated to go into the batteries?
Put another diode/set across the armature commutator to allow the regen to
dump to the batteries (if I remember shunt control theory correctly).
Would that affect those capacitors?
As long as you don't exceed their voltage rating, no problem.
What about driveability? Would it behave like a sort of cruise control?
I suspect that it would attempt to accelerate strongly up to the field
weakening point, then accelerate less strongly as the field rate-of-change
is strongly damped - with no field energy dumping the field will decay
slowly (I don't know how slowly and have no shunt motors to play with
(although I can measure the shunt field of the compound motor I'm intending
to use in the trike I'm planning). On deceleration you'd probably get
strong regen braking down to the field weakening point, then just go flat.
Somebody had mentioned sometime ago on the list about only needing 1
pedal. Not
even needing the brake regen just control the accelerator. What if you came
full off quickly though?
"hammering" regen down to the full-field RPMs, then free-wheel, I suspect.
Anyway, hoping y'all have some more input for me as I'm hoping this could work
better than a contactor controller.
My feeling is that this will accelerate/regen very similar to a contactor
controller. For a DIY SepEx controller, I would favour something like a
1231 on the armature, and a smaller version on the field (is it possible to
buy lower amperage controllers greater than 72 volts?). The field
controller would need to have some 'smarts' attached, to start field
weakening at the right RPMs, and boost the field for regen braking.
My plan for my trike is a compound connection, with the series field and
armarure being driven either by my GE-EV1 SCR controller or by a Curtis
1221C that I have in transit and intend to repair. The shunt field will be
controlled by a Crouzet micro controller that provides a PWM output signal
that will be proportional to the motor RPMs. I'm not going for any regen,
but to increase field when above a certain speed should provide regen. The
Crouzet M3 controller can do all sorts of useful stuff, so we'll see how it
works out. I'm planning on using the PWM output to drive a 200A FET that
I've got, not sure if I'm going to isolate it yet.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ian,
I am from Tailem Bend, Sth Aus, and have just commenced converting an ICE
to electric too. .
It appears to me you are in a position to use all the good gear so you
should have a great car.
I wish you every success.
Regards Don Moyes
From: "Ian Hooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 11:36 PM
Subject: Introductions
Greetings,
Just a quick email to introduce myself, as I just joined this list today.
My name is Ian Hooper, I'm from Perth, Western Australia. My new year's
resolution for '07 was/is to convert my car to electric!
So far the plans are fairly modest - a series 1 MX5 (Miata) with a Curtis
1231, an ADC 9", and ~10kWh of NiMH batteries. Considering a Warp9 and
Zilla1K instead.. maybe. Anyway it should be fun, I can't wait to get
started (once I know what I'm doing a bit better! ;)
Cheers,
-Ian
PS: Any other Aussies on the list?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<snip>
> > Why do all these companies keep putting similar
> sized packs in the
> > vehicles and all get in the low 100 mile range?
<snip>
I'm sure in some cases (if not most), if they are
using "laptop" sized LiIon cells the packs are not
designed to get 100 mile range. They are designed to
be able to put out enough current to get good
performance. This is quite often done by paralleling
a lot of lower current cells, which has the added
bonus of increasing amp-hours (range).
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know.
Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cool! I am getting ready to do this on my Nissan with 3 series strings
of 10 Hawker Genesis 26AH batteries each. My plan is to bulk charge
each string with a 130V. Then once they reach 80% my system would
switch over to a 10 bank battery tender that will finish charge each
battery separately. That way I get each battery looked at daily. I am
just trying to figure out the control network to switch the bulk charger
to each string and the battery tender to each battery. I am thinking of
using a serial relay controller for the battery tender part since a 36
relay board is easy to configure. I might even use it for the bulk
phase as well since all I am doing is turning on a relay. Maybe I will
just have 3 bulk chargers since they are fairly cheap to make. I might
also consider getting 2 more battery tender banks because at $450 each
that is not a bad deal and they give me a visual indication of each
battery every morning. They also only weigh about 10 pounds each so I
could mount them in the car with each string.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 16:09
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Soft-linking WAS/ Cost to drive a EV
Hi Jody,
Good idea - US Electricar has two strings and two contactors, so the two
strings are separated when not connected to the controller. This avoids
the common problem (it seems) of a runaway while the vehicle is parked.
However, the US Electricar uses only 1 charger and it is integrated into
the controller, so the two contactors are closed together (paralleling
the
strings) to charge them as one string. This does not allow any balancing
between them. Also during discharge there is no control of how much
current is supplied by one string or the other.
That was my reason to reconfigure to one string, avoiding the automatic
unbalancing, at the cost of slightly higher internal resistance, but
with the benefit of an increased capacity and no balancing problems.
My truck is now approaching 7000 miles, 6000 of which are on this setup.
Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:40 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Soft-linking WAS/ Cost to drive a EV
Call me crazy but why not just create two series strings and connect
them with contactors when they are to be used. Then you wouldn't have
the problem of buddy pairs. You could also charge them separately and
note any changes without thought to interference from buddy wires.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 13:34
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Soft-linking WAS/ Cost to drive a EV
Don,
I would use for example 12 AWG and an automotive fuse of 30A so it will
never blow due to some charging/discharging imbalance but will prevent
any destructive currents.
Over a year ago I picked up a bunch of automotive fuses with cap (so it
is protected at all sides) and 12 AWG wires, they came with 30A fuses
pre-installed and a loop of wire of about 2ft that I could cut in
whichever length I wanted.
The fuse introduces a small resistance, which helps in case of
soft-linking series strings into buddy pairs.
Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 10:05 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Soft-linking WAS/ Cost to drive a EV
Cor
What size wire would you use for the buddy pair soft links? This would
be basically what Lee brought up in a different post would be like a
fusible link.
Don
In a message dated 2/14/2007 7:50:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Ralph,
You describe the perfect world, where everything is in equilibrium and
what is not will move there.
Now consider that some technologies will drop in voltage when the
battery heats up.
This is the opposite of equilibrium:
- if one battery happens to have a lower resistance or lower SOC then
it gets more current
- due to the higher current, it warms up more than the buddy pair and
gets even more current
- this can lead to a runaway situation, where one battery hogs all
current (on charge as well as on discharge!) so there effectively is no
buddy pairing, it is one effective battery, but the current limit and
expected capacity are for the buddy pair, so not only does the good
battery get hit with double current, it will also be run down to empty
when you think that you are using 50% DOD.
Now I am not even addressing faults like a short in one cell or a
different temperature to start with and other failures that batteries
can develop and which are potential fatal in typical un-fused buddy
pairs.
Let the evidence be clear that of the few EVs that ever self-destructed
(fire), there is an unexpected high percentage with buddy-paired
batteries.
One such occurrence was the Porsche Flambe' of Michael Bearden, who had
his car parked outside his garage and was not charging it due to
circumstances, normally he would have lost his garage with other EVs
(Goggomobile 36Volts) and all his tools and equipment.
One way that you can make safer buddy-pairs is by 'soft-linking' them.
Build two series strings with heavy duty cable.
Then use thin cable (preferably with simple automotive fuses) to wire
the pairs of battery-connecting cable together, this will give the
wanted buddy-pairing with voltage equalization but will avoid any high
currents in case of malfunction of one of the buddy-pairs. Battery
regulators should still be OK with only one per pair as typical
currents through regulators are small. They should also tell when one
battery develops a problem and the voltage gets too high or too low too
soon.
Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph Merwin
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 6:46 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
Jody,
>From what I've read, batteries in parallel like this work a bit
>differently
than what you describe. When the pair is being charged, the one at a
lower state of charge will take more of the current. As its SOC
increases and its voltage tries to increase, it takes less of the
charge current. The voltage of the battery with a higher SOC cannot
get significantly higher than its
mate.
Now the other battery takes more of the current until its SOC increases.
They continue like this until fully charged.
The reverse happens on discharge.
I haven't actually measured the currents going thru a pair to verify
this.
Someday...
Ralph
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G writes:
>
> Also, when the batteries charge and discharge since they are
> chemically different and their internal resistance is not the same
> they will react differently. One will always take a charge faster
> and so it will cook while the other catches up. If the weaker
> doesn't get the full charge before the charger cuts off it will go
> deeper than the other or the stronger battery will charge it up and
> equalize costing power. With regulators across the pair you will
> still have the same problem. The regulator will not cut the current
> off to the stronger battery so the weaker can get more charge.
> Believe me - there will always be a weaker and a stronger battery in
> a buddy pair. As the batteries age the difference will become
> greater and eventually the buddy pair will kill both batteries. I
> would really recommend separating the buddy pairs into strings of
> series batteries that can be connected in parallel during use or
> charging. That way your pack won't prematurely kill itself. I would
> hate to see your batteries die a
year or so early.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of David Roden
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 0:26
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Cost to drive a EV
>
> On 13 Feb 2007 at 20:50, Ralph Merwin wrote:
>
> > An
> > islator is not required because both batteries are getting the same
> > discharge and charge cycles.
>
> I'm not so sure. If a battery develops a shorted cell, its partner
> will empty itself trying to charge it. I even had this happen with
> two parallel 96v strings once.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Is there a formulae for tire width vs LRR? I need to buy new tires for my
electric Porsche and there are P155, P165 and P195 options. I assume that the
skinnier tire always wins in LRR but by what measureable percentage? Is there
measureable data or a formulae for width, are we talking about 5% range
difference (or MPG) or is it a fraction of a percent? When wider tires are
used there's obviously a larger contact patch area but the pressure to the road
per square inch is decreased so it may not be a huge percentage.
Best Regards,
Mark
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
