EV digest 6425

Fri, 16 Feb 2007 12:02:26 -0800 

                            EV Digest 6425

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: First post
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  2) Re: First post
        by Crystal Silver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Fabulous New Energy Source for EVs!
        by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Speaking of Hybrids
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Wiring up a Kostov...
        by "Andrew A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: First post
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: First post
        by Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: DC/DC Converter
        by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Dc/DC Converter
        by Daniel Eyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: EV digest 6424
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 12) Re: EV digest 6424
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 13) RE: Front Suspension, was RE: Brake Pressure Multiplier?
        by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) RE: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
        by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- 

On Feb 16, 2007, at 12:36 AM, Cor van de Water wrote:


Hi Crystal,
It is mainly your attitude that will make you find a solution that will work 
for you, so don't give up ;-)
There have been several different EV vans over the years, some
home-conversion, some factory conversions.
The lighter the basis (micro-van) the larger your range will be.
Dependent on how much weight the van can carry (after suspension
improvement), you can add between 1/2 the empty weight and the same weight 
as the van in batteries, so the end result is a vehicle with a weight
divided between
batteries and the rest of about 1/3 to half the total weight being
batteries.
When getting close to half, the increase in capacity is counter- acted by the increase in weight and energy to accelerate, so it depends on the type of driving where there is no more gain. In the city you may want to stay below 1/3 to avoid the waste in every stop-n-go, while constant speed highway driving can still be extended with more capacity at 1/2 the vehicle weight, so it is more determined by practical parameters how much you can place in 
the vehicle and your budget.
Per Dodge website (I can't find any info on the shortest model for 2007, maybe they did away with it, at least in the US): 

Wheelbase: 144" or 170"
GVWR: 8550 or 9990 or 11030
Interior Height: 65" or 76.4" or 84.3" (personally I would rather have shorter length but taller height) 
Width: 79.7"
Bumper-to-Bumper Length: 232.5" or 273.2" or 289.2"
Models: 2500 or 3500
Wheels: 16"
Hauling Capacity: 5570
Cargo Bed Length: 128.8" or 169.3" or 185"
Cargo Width at Wheelhouse: 53.1" or 38.5"
Max Width at Floor: 70.1"
Cargo Volume 318 cu ft or 371 cu ft or 494 cu ft or 547 cu ft or 530 cu ft or 600 cu ft 
Roof Choices: Standard, High, or Mega
Curb Weight: 4861 or 4940 or 5271 or 5399 or 5491 or 5978
Max Payload: 3989 or 3910 or 3579 or 3451 or 3062 or 4989
Max Towing: 5000 or 7500
GCWR: 13550 or 18525
Fuel Tank: 25 gal
Step-In Height: 19.9"
I can't seem to find the info I saw the other day about the model with the 99" wheelbase and 118" length, so maybe they aren't releasing this size for 2007, so I'll have to look around for an old model somewhere.
I'm still learning what all this means. I haven't decided what to buy yet, as I've just started looking. 



My own vehicle is an S10 pickup which weighs about 3000 lbs excluding
batteries and I have added 1800 lbs of batteries for a range of max 60
miles, but I would consider this a larger-than-I-need vehicle. I have it because it was the easiest way to get an EV (the only freeway capable EV I 
could buy).
Ground clearance is a design parameter, there is no single good or bad, but if your trip brings you to unpaved roads then I suggest you keep everything 
at least 8" or thereabouts from the ground. If the vehicle itself sits
lower, then the battery boxes can extend lower as well. Watch out with
extending beyond the wheels in front or aft, as you could hit speed bumps and curbs when they are not at least 6 to 8" from the ground. Building a box that extends between the wheels to match the side of the vehicle is OK.
Many trucks have boxes *below* the bed to utilize that dead space and keep 
the cargo capability.
I'm wondering how many batteries could feasibly be boxed "under" the vehicle, given the parameters listed above. The smaller the vehicle the better performance but the fewer the batteries, obviously, but that really doesn't tell me anything concrete.
Some numbers on solar recharging: roughly 10 square feet gives you 100W in real life, with panels aimed at the sun. Throughout a long sunny (summer) day you may have 8 hours of full sun on your panels max, more common is around 5 hours. So a single 10 square feet panel gives you approximately 1/2 
kWh (100W x 5hours) in a day.
If you drive your van 50 miles from the nearest power outlet and you can make the van very efficient, so it uses less than 250Wh per mile, you will consume at least 12 kWh from the battery pack, which must be replaced by the solar panels. That means you will need 24 panels of 10 square feet (or 12 
panels of 20 square feet) to re-charge your van in a day of sunlight.
Maybe you can use the panels during most of both days if you drive only a short period (one hour or so) every other day, so you may get up to 10 hours of sun, which brings the requirement down to 12 panels of 10 square feet (usually advertised as 120W to 140W panels) or 6 panels of 20 square feet 
(around 250W panels).
If you can recharge your van somewhere within 10 miles distance, you would 
only need to put 2.5kWh back into the pack to make it there, so with 3
panels of 10 square feet you would be OK. It all depends on what is
acceptable to you and if you are OK living with the constraints, you can 
make the situation work within a very moderate budget.
Wowsers...Well, if I had to wait 3-5 days to charge via solar, it would be all right I guess, as long as I planned it so I was stopping in a scenic area where I could get a lot of work done during my downtime.
It appears the maximum roof space available for solar panels (assuming I have no sun roof, roof vent, A/C, etc) would be like 9'x5', which wouldn't be enough according to several responses I've received thus far. 



In general, AC solutions are more expensive than DC solutions.
Flooded lead acid batteries are the cheapest and most forgiving type
batteries, especially the abundantly available Golf Cart type, but need some maintenance (watering) every few months, so you need to have access and they 
need to be separated from the interior of the vehicle due to dangerous
fumes, so you need to have a closed battery box with venting to the outside 
(tubes or fan)

There are many more considerations and details to think about - please
browse the evalbum and see what others have done to get an idea.
If you post rough estimates on your range, budget and type of vehicle you like, you can get more detailed replies on whether that can work and how to 
make it work.
Range will vary depending on location; obviously in a place like Arizona, I'd prefer not to get stuck out in the middle of the desert with no cellular coverage for miles. I really wish there were a way to get more than 60 miles out of a charge. Even the range of half a tank of gasoline would be appreciated (say up to like 125-150 miles), but it seems everybody thinks that's unrealistic.
I feel like I'd be a hypocrite if I just bought a diesel and left it at that. I want to set an example for what is possible. Motor homes are terrible for the environment, but I I also realize that most people with motor homes ALSO have other fossil-fuel-burning assets lying around as well, and many also have behemoth homes big enough for an army (at least in this country). But me, I'll have ONLY this, so I try to cut myself some slack, but it's still a matter of principle to me. 



I promise you - you are in for a great time with a lot of learning
opportunities and the saying it that the wise learn from the experience of others, the rest needs to make their own mistakes. I do not say you have no right to your own mistakes, but there is a way to avoid most of them, unless 
you are breaking new ground ;-)

Hope this helps,
Cor.
Thanks for the detail response. I'll keep reading to see what else I can learn. :-) 


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 8:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: First post

Hi there,
I just joined this list yesterday, and I've considered going electric for quite some time but only started seriously researching it last week. I'm not really "into" cars as it were, I just use them to get from point A to point 
B, but my uncle's a mechanic with over 30-35 years' experience and has
agreed to help me do a conversion, and although he seemed to be somewhat familiar with the terminology and other information I've learned from my research, I don't think he's ever actually done an EV conversion before. But he said he was willing to help me out, so I have started collecting as many details as possible. I've found parts suppliers, online instructions from others who have done their own conversions, and lots of enthusiasm for EVs in general; I have also, however, found much conflicting information about what is and isn't possible, along with a lot of gloom-and-doom nay- sayers who insist none of the effort is worth the end result. I am convinced this is something I want to do, but I have to get the logistics worked out and figure out how I can make it work for my situation. Perhaps some of you 
could help me.
This message is long; I apologize; I'm very serious about learning how to do 
this properly, so I may seem a bit overzealous in my enthusiasm.
First, do ALL conversions have to be tiny cars? I love the tiny cars as a rule, but for this application it's not possible. I'm not looking to convert 
a behemoth or anything, as I'm just as disgusted by those as many EV
enthusiasts are. The vehicle I'm hoping to convert is something like a Dodge 
Sprinter (the short body 118"
version, which is about the length of a mini-van, but I need to get the high 
roof version, which measures 73" or 6 ft standing room from floor to
ceiling), and it will be empty when I start except for the front
driver/passenger seats. I won't be loading it up with junk, just modest 
camping/office accommodations and I'll be powering all my
electricity-requiring stuff by a solar panel. I need enough power to propel the vehicle at highway-legal speeds for as long of a range as possible given the current battery technologies available (perhaps Lithium- Polymer, as suggested on a site by a guy who outlined his conversion in detail), but I'm not pre-occupied with any of the performance-type concerns of sports car people. 55-65 mph would be plenty, as long as it won't creep like a turtle while going up a hill. It needs to transport me and my two small lap-size dogs, plus my gear, which is miniscule compared to most people's standards, and I'd like to use regenerative braking to help with some of the energy generation, plus I'd like to connect solar panels (separate from the one that will run my laptop, etc.), NOT to recharge while driving necessarily as I've read that doesn't really work all that well, but instead to recharge on 
the days I'm NOT driving, such as while sitting in a national park or
campground. So I need to find instructions on how to actually hook up the batteries to roof-mounted solar panels rather than stationary panels at a home location. It will be much lighter overall than a factory-built camper van, as I will be building the interior myself, sans most of the heavy stuff 
they usually stick in those things.
Whew, that was a mouthful. I may have forgotten something, but I'm sure 
it'll come out during the course of this discussion.
I'll be fully self-contained for extended periods in this vehicle, taking 
photographs, writing essays, and remotely working with my laptop and
wireless card. I will plug into grid power when available, but I don't want to have to rely on any outside sources during my travels. I realize that I won't be able to drive every day because some days will be "charging only" 
days, and I know I'm not going to be able to drive for hours and hours
without stopping (unless I can find some feasible batteries that provide more range than what I've been able to find thus far). Although the vehicle will be for long- distance travel, it's not like a race or anything. It's for driving a couple hours, then stopping to work for several hours and take photographs at various locations during daylight hours then charging the batteries the next day while working on-site, then heading off the next day 
with a full charge. During this time, I'll be doing multiple things:
freelancing, operating a website, and working on a doctorate, and I plan to travel only where it's not cold (spring/ summer/fall in colder climates, year-round in places with warm climates). But becoming energy- independent is 
very important to me and I am determined to alleviate fossil fuels.
I hope I'm explaining this clearly enough, as I know I can get chatty and 
ramble on when I get excited.
I also realize that what I'm proposing will probably draw a lot of negative responses from people who say it's just not possible, but I don't care, I'm going to do it anyway, so the more helpful information I can collect the 
better. I will find a way to make it work successfully; it's just
non-negotiable. I won't give up until I figure it out; it's an integral part of my overall mission. If I need to make certain concessions in some places to make it work, then I'll consider that once all alternatives have proven 
ineffective.
Second major issue: I need to figure out the maximum number of batteries I can put into the thing without it weighing me down so much that it negates their value. I also would prefer not to blow up, of course. ;-) From what I've read so far, it appears that for my application, AC would be better than DC, but correct me if you think I'm mistaken. I'm wondering if it's possible to mount batteries underneath the van, as there's extra space not available in a small car (much like those who convert pickups put batteries in the truck bed), and how far above the ground do the need to be, etc? What's the maximum amps each battery can have, as I've found deep- cycle batteries available up to over 200 amp hours. I'm probably going to need 
12-volt instead of 6-volt, but I could be wrong there too.
How many batteries can go with each controller, motor, etc? Is it possible to have two separate systems that I can flip a switch between? For example, to run the vehicle off one set while charging the other via solar? This may sound silly, but I haven't found any info yet that specifically says this is 
impossible, so I have to ask.
I need to be as economical as humanly possible given the parameters I need to achieve, so any details about how much all this will cost (except the solar, as I've already found the info I need about that) and where to get the best deal on the electric conversion parts would be most appreciated.
OK, I've wasted enough of your time tonight; hopefully I will learn more 
about this from all of you.

One last question: Is it possible to receive these messages in digest
format? I only joined yesterday and I've already received nearly 200
individual messages, and my inbox is difficult to navigate as a result. 

If you've actually read this far, thanks a bunch for your time,

Crystal :-)

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- All the stuff I've read about bio-diesel operation sounds complicated - like having to run the diesel motor with gasoline first then turning over to the "grease" power after the engine is warmed up, and stuff like that...then carrying the veggie oils in the trunk and doing filtering every time...are there instructions somewhere that make it as simple as what you've made it sound? And will my vehicle constantly wreak of french fries? I've also read that some places in the U.S. are getting wind of this and are starting to charge people to take their used grease. I'm not sure how prevalent this practice is, but sounds like something they'd try to profit from here. Does bio diesel require changing the oil the same as regular gasoline? Is everything else the same as operating a regular guzzle-mobile?
I do know that diesel engines were originally designed for this purpose, but I have never actually gone through the process of figuring out how to implement it myself. But I did see one of Morgan Spurlock's programs one time where they were filming at the Dancing Rabbit eco-village (in Missouri?), and all the steps they had to go through just to make their vehicle operate seemed a bit counter- productive. Just getting a fill-up seemed to be an all-day ordeal.
I am interested in hearing more about this, however, as the more efficiently and inexpensively (and quickly) I can get up-and-running the better. 

Thanks for the info.


On Feb 16, 2007, at 1:05 PM, chris lewis wrote:
From reading your requirements and the environment you'll be in ie; the locations I dont think an EV is going to be practical. You might want to consider something that's catching on here in Europe..... bio fuel - cooking oil or like the Brits say chip fat. The diesel engine was originally design to run on oil seed, not fossil fuels.
So take a diesel engine vehicle, swap the fuel filter, run the take dry of diesel, refill with cooking oil (used chip fat is free! you just need to filter it). Start engine, engage transmission, drive off. 

chris



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
OK, this is very helpful; thank you. OK, so Li-Io are out of the question, at least for the next few years until the prices fall from the stratosphere. My second choice would have been the Deep- Cycle Gel batteries like the kind typically used in marine applications, and it seems this is what you're suggesting. It would be great if I could use the maintenance-free enclosed type instead of having to remember to add water, but I guess if need be I could always remind myself in iCal.
Charging in an RV park or public campground (less expensive than RV parks these days it seems) sounds like a good idea for most days–what about rest stops? Do they have AC outlets at any of those? Would it ever be possible to run a long cord from the vehicle to an outlet in the restroom of the building? Saving money anywhere I can will help a lot.
A 125-watt solar panel is approximately 24"x48" right? So, 1000 watts would need about 8 panels and would take up, say 16'?? I think a Sprinter is only about 10' long. Are larger wattage panels only slightly larger in dimensions? Would it be better to have a whole bunch of smaller-watt panels strung together or a few much larger panels? Does it really matter? I should be able to maintain my entire interior arsenal with only one solar panel, and I may get one I can carry with me in a backpack (foldable) to operate my laptop and accessories. In any case, I obviously won't be able to afford to get all of the panels straightaway; I'll have to start out with plug-in charging for the most part. Solar panels have a long lifespan, don't they? I'm hoping they could be an investment that eventually I'll uninstall from the vehicle and install elsewhere after I'm done with the van; is this possible, or would I have to replace the panels nearly as often as the batteries?
I don't want to have to resort to diesel/electric hybrid, but I guess if I can find no other viable solutions, I might have to consider it. Is it any more difficult to do a hybrid conversion than an all- electric one? See, I don't like doing all that maintenance on an ICE engine, and I don't want to take the darn thing to a mechanic all the time because the only one I trust to NOT rip me off is my uncle, and he won't be traveling with me. Plus, messing with oil and fluids and such isn't my idea of fun. 





On Feb 16, 2007, at 12:31 AM, Robert Lemke wrote:
Welcome to the group. I think the Sprinter is a perfect canidate for what you have in mind. For eff. I would go AC. This will help you decide http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/motor.htm
I have crunched some numbers. Lio ion are great batteries but would take a $50 grand investment. I suggest you deal with the weight and choose AGM batteries. Your Sprinter with its diesel knocks down 25 mpg, so with an AC motor I would guess around 350 whr/mile. So to have a 75 mile range would require a bank of 27kw/ hr. AGM's would weigh 1900 lbs. In your travels, when you max out your range pull into an RV park for an overnight stay. This would top off your dischared batteries overnight. If you have room for 1000 watts in panels and can get 9 hours exposure, then you need 3 days to recharge. 

  Bob

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hi there,
I just joined this list yesterday, and I've considered going electric 
for quite some time but only started seriously researching it last
week. I'm not really "into" cars as it were, I just use them to get
from point A to point B, but my uncle's a mechanic with over 30-35
years' experience and has agreed to help me do a conversion, and
although he seemed to be somewhat familiar with the terminology and
other information I've learned from my research, I don't think he's
ever actually done an EV conversion before. But he said he was
willing to help me out, so I have started collecting as many details
as possible. I've found parts suppliers, online instructions from
others who have done their own conversions, and lots of enthusiasm
for EVs in general; I have also, however, found much conflicting
information about what is and isn't possible, along with a lot of
gloom-and-doom nay-sayers who insist none of the effort is worth the
end result. I am convinced this is something I want to do, but I have to get the logistics worked out and figure out how I can make it work 
for my situation. Perhaps some of you could help me.

This message is long; I apologize; I'm very serious about learning
how to do this properly, so I may seem a bit overzealous in my
enthusiasm.

First, do ALL conversions have to be tiny cars? I love the tiny cars
as a rule, but for this application it's not possible. I'm not
looking to convert a behemoth or anything, as I'm just as disgusted
by those as many EV enthusiasts are. The vehicle I'm hoping to
convert is something like a Dodge Sprinter (the short body 118"
version, which is about the length of a mini-van, but I need to get
the high roof version, which measures 73" or 6 ft standing room from
floor to ceiling), and it will be empty when I start except for the
front driver/passenger seats. I won't be loading it up with junk,
just modest camping/office accommodations and I'll be powering all my 
electricity-requiring stuff by a solar panel. I need enough power to
propel the vehicle at highway-legal speeds for as long of a range as
possible given the current battery technologies available (perhaps
Lithium-Polymer, as suggested on a site by a guy who outlined his
conversion in detail), but I'm not pre-occupied with any of the
performance-type concerns of sports car people. 55-65 mph would be
plenty, as long as it won't creep like a turtle while going up a
hill. It needs to transport me and my two small lap-size dogs, plus
my gear, which is miniscule compared to most people's standards, and
I'd like to use regenerative braking to help with some of the energy
generation, plus I'd like to connect solar panels (separate from the
one that will run my laptop, etc.), NOT to recharge while driving
necessarily as I've read that doesn't really work all that well, but
instead to recharge on the days I'm NOT driving, such as while
sitting in a national park or campground. So I need to find
instructions on how to actually hook up the batteries to roof- mounted 
solar panels rather than stationary panels at a home location. It
will be much lighter overall than a factory-built camper van, as I
will be building the interior myself, sans most of the heavy stuff
they usually stick in those things.

Whew, that was a mouthful. I may have forgotten something, but I'm
sure it'll come out during the course of this discussion.

I'll be fully self-contained for extended periods in this vehicle,
taking photographs, writing essays, and remotely working with my
laptop and wireless card. I will plug into grid power when available, 
but I don't want to have to rely on any outside sources during my
travels. I realize that I won't be able to drive every day because
some days will be "charging only" days, and I know I'm not going to
be able to drive for hours and hours without stopping (unless I can
find some feasible batteries that provide more range than what I've
been able to find thus far). Although the vehicle will be for long-
distance travel, it's not like a race or anything. It's for driving a 
couple hours, then stopping to work for several hours and take
photographs at various locations during daylight hours then charging
the batteries the next day while working on-site, then heading off
the next day with a full charge. During this time, I'll be doing
multiple things: freelancing, operating a website, and working on a
doctorate, and I plan to travel only where it's not cold (spring/
summer/fall in colder climates, year-round in places with warm
climates). But becoming energy-independent is very important to me
and I am determined to alleviate fossil fuels.
I hope I'm explaining this clearly enough, as I know I can get chatty 
and ramble on when I get excited.

I also realize that what I'm proposing will probably draw a lot of
negative responses from people who say it's just not possible, but I
don't care, I'm going to do it anyway, so the more helpful
information I can collect the better. I will find a way to make it
work successfully; it's just non-negotiable. I won't give up until I
figure it out; it's an integral part of my overall mission. If I need to make certain concessions in some places to make it work, then I'll 
consider that once all alternatives have proven ineffective.

Second major issue: I need to figure out the maximum number of
batteries I can put into the thing without it weighing me down so
much that it negates their value. I also would prefer not to blow up, 
of course. ;-) From what I've read so far, it appears that for my
application, AC would be better than DC, but correct me if you think
I'm mistaken. I'm wondering if it's possible to mount batteries
underneath the van, as there's extra space not available in a small
car (much like those who convert pickups put batteries in the truck
bed), and how far above the ground do the need to be, etc? What's the 
maximum amps each battery can have, as I've found deep-cycle
batteries available up to over 200 amp hours. I'm probably going to
need 12-volt instead of 6-volt, but I could be wrong there too.

How many batteries can go with each controller, motor, etc? Is it
possible to have two separate systems that I can flip a switch
between? For example, to run the vehicle off one set while charging
the other via solar? This may sound silly, but I haven't found any
info yet that specifically says this is impossible, so I have to ask.
I need to be as economical as humanly possible given the parameters I 
need to achieve, so any details about how much all this will cost
(except the solar, as I've already found the info I need about that)
and where to get the best deal on the electric conversion parts would 
be most appreciated.

OK, I've wasted enough of your time tonight; hopefully I will learn
more about this from all of you.
One last question: Is it possible to receive these messages in digest 
format? I only joined yesterday and I've already received nearly 200
individual messages, and my inbox is difficult to navigate as a result. 

If you've actually read this far, thanks a bunch for your time,

Crystal :-)







--

+ 44(0) 7770 604 380
The information in this email is confidential and privileged and is intended solely for the addressee. Any disclosure, copying or distribution of this email and attachments is strictly prohibited and unlawful unless with express permission of sender detailed.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Roger Stockton wrote:

Have you tried getting a quote on having a new spline cut on the
shortened axle so that the inner CV joint can simply be re-installed?
A quick check said that would be more expensive than buying a new short axle. But machinists are good at clever solutions. One might come up with a quick way to do it cheap (especially if we had a whole pile of them to do). 


unlikely that the average kit builder will be a composites  expert
will they be up to the task of shortening their own  shafts and
joining them back together with composites?
Well, *we* have to become composites experts to build this car. So maybe *we* can make that composite tube. Best-case, the builder might only need to cut the axles with a hack saw, clean them, slide them into the provided composite tube, and bond with the supplied adhesive per instructions. 


Even if they are up to attempting this, each builder would likely have
to purchase a minimum quantity of cloth and resin far in excess of what
they actually require
Remember, this is a composite car. The builder will have to bond the various composite pieces together in any case. Think of it like building a plastic model car kit -- only full size! 


the most likely scenario... the builder would be best off to buy
aftermarket shortened axles, or farm out the axle-shortening job
to a local machine shop anyway... try to design so the required
shortened axle length is one that is available "off-the-shelf"
I agree. A key concept in this whole Sunrise project is NOT to lock the builder into any one way that things "must" be done. I think shortened axles like this are always full custom (part of the reason for the high price), but it's possible that somebody somewhere has needed a shorter T-bird axle for some reason.
Of course, the real reason for the shortened axles is that the Sunrise, like the GM EV1 and Honda Insight, deliberately used a narrowed rear end and fender skirts for efficiency and aerodynamics. A builder *could* decide to use the axle as-is, and let the wheels stick out like a normal car. Some Sunrises had a 52" rear track; some 58". The T'bird is 61" as-is. 

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Just watch the video.  It's obvious.

Michael L Werth wrote:

Hey, that's great.  What does it do?
> retro 
encabulator <

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
thomas ward wrote:

you're way ahead of me Lee, I hadn't even thought of this.
(I think you really mean shear though don't you?). 

Yes; the adhesive would fail in shear.


I'm not sure it is such a problem though, essentially
the force generated by the torque must pass through
the adhesive bond from the shaft to the sleeve. You
want to ensure there is enough area of adhesive
involved in transmitting the force. The relative
stiffness of the shaft and sleeve will have some
influence but much more significant will be how
ductile is the adhesive. The adhesive needs to be able
to spread the load before it fails.
Agreed. I was just guessing that a) if the sleeve is far stiffer than the shaft, then torsion would make the stress concentrate at the outer ends of the shaft-sleeve interface, and the adhesive would fail there first. Or b) if the shaft is far stiffer than the sleeve, then torsion makes the stress concentrate at the center (inside ends of the cut shafts), and the adhesive would fail there first.
If the stiffness of the shaft and sleeve are coordinated correctly, then the stress should be equally distributed over the entire area of the bond, providing the greatest strength.
Intuitively, I think that means the shaft and sleeve should have the same torsional stiffness. But is that correct? 


Nor mine. We used to buy cloth and resins from SP
systems in Isle of Wight, UK. The tech support people
were very good (but that was 20 years ago). You can
try asking them or a similar company for advice.
We've been working with West Systems for our composites. They are knowledgeable and helpful, but not all that sharp on the engineering. 


Measure their stress-strain (what torque for what deflection)

>> to failure.


This will tell you the ultimate strength of the
assembly which I don't think is that useful to you
because the failure mode of a rotating shaft will
almost certainly be fatigue and the fatigue strength
isn't neccessarily proportional to the ultimate
strength. 
For example a stress range of 65N/mm2 would give you
about 1e8 cycles to failure in unwelded steel and
about 5e6 cycles in an undressed full pen weld but
only about 1e6 cycles to failure in a weld with a root
gap. All three situations would give the same ultimate
strength but up to 100 times variation in fatigue
life.
Ah; I think I see what you mean. The weld area will have lots of local imperfections and stress concentrations, that will leading to cracking and fatigue failures well below the peak load, that we wouldn't have in a uniform bar. 

--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hi,

I have a really dumb question.

I was just wondering how I go about hooking up a
Kostov ET12114.4150 (9" dia., 144v, series wound).
It's got the four connections on top, and I know that
two of these have to be connected to each other and
the other two are positive and negative. I just don't
know which is which. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks!

Andrew


 
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Welcome to the EV list, Crystal! I love your dream; I wish I had the freedom to do something like it. 

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I've found parts suppliers, online instructions from others who have
> done their own conversions, and lots of enthusiasm for EVs in general;
> I have also, however, found much conflicting information about what
> is and isn't possible, along with a lot of gloom-and-doom nay-sayers
> who insist none of the effort is worth the end result.
You've been getting lots of good advice, both on this list, and what you've found on the web in your search. Just be aware that a lot of it is like the blind men describing the elephant -- each from his own perspective. He can't see the whole picture that you do, so what "can't work" for him may be exactly what you want! 


The vehicle I'm hoping to convert is something like a Dodge Sprinter
The Sprinter is the "stretch" version of the VW Eurovan. (I have a Eurovan, and love it). They are expensive, but very competent trucks. If you're going to be living/working in it, you might also want to look at the Eurovan-based EVC. They are motor homes, built to live in. A little more car-like, easier to park and get into garages, gasoline vs. diesel, etc.
In my experience, these are all expensive vehicles to maintain. They break down more often than (say) a Toyota or Honda, are hard to work on, and cost more to repair. Keep up the maintenance, and be prepared! 


I'll be powering all my electricity-requiring stuff by a solar panel.
That's possible; they have a big flat roof. You won't get enough power to drive it as an EV for more than a mile or two a day, however. 


I need enough power to propel the vehicle at highway-legal speeds
for as long of a range as possible given the current battery
technologies available
EVs generally have short range (50 miles or so on a charge on $1000 worth of batteries; 100 miles on $5000 worth of batteries for a small car). Heavy vehicles like the Sprinter scale up the whole problem. It weighs 2-3 times more, so your battery cost scales up accordingly. Are you prepared to spend $2000-$3000 for 50 miles, or $10,000-$15,000 for 100 miles range?
I would consider making it a hybrid. Daimler-Benz is doing this themselves (but no idea if/when it will ever be marketed here). These vehicles are front engine, front wheel drive, but are offered everywhere in the world except the USA with a 4 wheel drive option. They have independent rear suspension; you can see the inside ends of the rear axles where universal joints bolt to them, and room for the differential and drive shaft to the front. If you buy these parts from Canada, Mexico, Europe etc. you can add a rear drive setup. Instead of a drive shaft to the front, install an electric motor. There's room under the floor for a modest battery pack; enough for a 10-20 mile range and low speed around-town driving. Use the diesel for high speeds, long trips, and to recharge your batteries. This scales down the whole problem, making it more affordable and less risky.
Another thought (a pet idea of mine ;-) is to pick a different vehicle, one more suited to be an EV motor home. Google "ultravan". This is an ultralight ultraefficient 22 ft. motorhome, built more like an airplane than a truck. An electric/hybrid ultravan might be ideal for the kind of lifestyle you are thinking of. 
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in    --    Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I have a home in Northern California near Placerville in the Sierra foothills. 
I have a business and vacation home in Southern California, in winter spend 
most of my time.
   
  Bob

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I am currently in Iowa, where I grew up, but once I leave again, I'll 
probably be spending most of my time in Northern California and/or 
Pacific Northwest areas, at least for the next few years.


On Feb 15, 2007, at 11:39 PM, Mike Willmon wrote:

> Crystal,
>
> BTW, where in this world of ours are you located?
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hi, Daniel - I got one of these to use. Try a search on eBay for "Electric
vehicle parts"

Joseph H. Strubhar

E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Web:   www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Daniel Eyk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2007 1:30 PM
Subject: DC/DC Converter


> I saw your message on the EVDL about this converter
> and was wondering if you new the item number or what
> to look for to find it? I tried to find it and
> couldn't. I would like to see about using it on my
> S-10 conversion. Thanks, Dan Eyk
>
> Daniel Eyk
> Vancouver, Wa.
>
> Electric S-10 project
> E-15 project
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Be a PS3 game guru.
> Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo!
Games.
> http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.0/689 - Release Date: 2/15/2007
5:40 PM
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Cor, I am planning on using a 144 volt pack on my
commuter S-10. Am thinking about another project later
with higher voltage. Dan Eyk

Daniel Eyk
Vancouver, Wa.

Electric S-10 project
E-15 project


 
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- The site doesn't seem to tell me what this does exactly. It's a charger, yes, but what good does it do me if I have to plug it into an AC outlet anyway? I'm not sure I understand the purpose of this and how it works and how it will afford me a greater range. Does it speed up the time required to fully re-juice the batteries? Is it like the equivalent to using a cigarette-lighter adapter for your cell phone (1-2 hours charging rather than 5-6)? The website is spartan at best, and the information it provides is limited in scope (at least for someone who has never done this before). 



On Feb 16, 2007, at 1:18 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:


From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: February 16, 2007 1:18:42 PM CST
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: First post


Crystal, never under estimate the power of google.

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/


Also read the archives on yahoo (link below), lots of people use these
chargers (including me). All your questions will be answered with a little 
searching and reading.


Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I use Google for everything; and I HAVE been reading like crazy. No one can ever accuse me of not doing my homework. But I thought that's what this list was for, to ask questions and learn from others. If I'm not allowed to do that, then what's the point of being a member of the list? I figured maybe as someone with experience with this particular item would be able to give me more information about it without my having to suffer through marketer speak on the company's website. I'll visit the URL and see what I can find out on my own. 


On Feb 16, 2007, at 1:18 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:


From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: February 16, 2007 1:18:42 PM CST
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: First post


Crystal, never under estimate the power of google.

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/


Also read the archives on yahoo (link below), lots of people use these
chargers (including me). All your questions will be answered with a little 
searching and reading.

Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Good point, actually without the halfshaft and CV, there may be no axle stub
at all.  In one custom car we built we simply cut off the end from a CV to
create an axle stub.



Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
 
 
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project   www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
 
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
 
Check out the EV FAQ:  www.evparts.com/faq
 
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: February 16, 2007 5:56 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Front Suspension, was RE: Brake Pressure Multiplier?

There may be a risk using a FWD suspension for up front without the
halfshats in there. In some of the newer setups the axle comes thru a
bearing cartridge but i think the axle nut is what helps preload the
bearing(so force is distributed on the bearings and not just against the few
on the top.) I haven't checked this out but I do know the 95 grand am has
such a set up and the brakes drag when I go around corners after wheel
bearing and driveshafts were replaced (new repair parts not as good as
original parts :-(  )

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I'm interested in this formula as well.  I have fairly large tires
275/60/15 - about 10 inches wide and I'm thinking about changing them to
a narrower tire.  Would my money be well spent here?

John Grigg
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/723


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark E. Hanson
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 5:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR

Hi,
   
  Is there a formulae for tire width vs LRR?  I need to buy new tires
for my electric Porsche and there are P155, P165 and P195 options.  I
assume that the skinnier tire always wins in LRR but by what measureable
percentage?  Is there measureable data or a formulae for width, are we
talking about 5% range difference (or MPG) or is it a fraction of a
percent?  When wider tires are used there's obviously a larger contact
patch area but the pressure to the road per square inch is decreased so
it may not be a huge percentage.
   
  Best Regards,
  Mark

 
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