EV Digest 6427
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: converting auto to manual trans
by Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV digest 6425
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) RE: Speaking of Hybrids
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: First post
by Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV digest 6424
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: When EV's go OEM (the performance aspect)
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Affordable Solar
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV digest 6426
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Chain Noise Re: Personal Electric Transport
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: First post
by Crystal Silver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It is probably not worth the hassle when you have to deal with a transfer case,
clutch, etc. You can probably carry enough batteries between the frame rails
to offset any losses in the automatic. I looked into the possiblity in my car
and it would have involved changing the shift linkage, a clutch pedal and a
whole big hassle. Newer automatics are a lot more efficient than their old
counterparts and you might be pleased with the results unless you are trying to
get a larger range. In that case driving on the road a torque converter locked
auto would be efficient. In town starting and stopping is another matter
entirely.
In theory your taperlock hub and adapter plate should be able to work on either
one without much effort. I say this knowing someone will have a contradiction,
but it is true in my case.
Best of luck
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
---- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> What's it like to convert an auto trans S10 to a manual trans S10?
>
> 2. what if it is a 4x4. that's even harder, right?,
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Feb 16, 2007, at 2:00 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: February 16, 2007 1:22:30 PM CST
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: First post
The Sprinter is the "stretch" version of the VW Eurovan. (I have a
Eurovan, and love it). They are expensive, but very competent
trucks. If you're going to be living/working in it, you might also
want to look at the Eurovan-based EVC. They are motor homes, built
to live in. A little more car-like, easier to park and get into
garages, gasoline vs. diesel, etc.
There's a company that specializes in Sprinter camper vans; it's at
sportsmobile.com. I have considered a VW, as I like the form factor,
but everyone I ask says the parts are uber-expensive and it's
difficult to find competent professionals to work on them. That is
one of the big problems with a vehicle like the Winnebago Rialta
(WInnebago Industries is an Iowa company), which is built on a VW
chassis; lots of complaints about that vehicle and the annoyance of
servicing it.
In my experience, these are all expensive vehicles to maintain.
They break down more often than (say) a Toyota or Honda, are hard
to work on, and cost more to repair. Keep up the maintenance, and
be prepared!
Is there a comparable mini-van from Toyota or Honda that is available
in the United States? I like those brands, but all the vans I've seen
seem to have very short roof heights. I guess I could get an extended
roof installed by a third party, if that's possible.
I'll be powering all my electricity-requiring stuff by a solar panel.
That's possible; they have a big flat roof. You won't get enough
power to drive it as an EV for more than a mile or two a day, however.
I need enough power to propel the vehicle at highway-legal speeds
for as long of a range as possible given the current battery
technologies available
EVs generally have short range (50 miles or so on a charge on $1000
worth of batteries; 100 miles on $5000 worth of batteries for a
small car). Heavy vehicles like the Sprinter scale up the whole
problem. It weighs 2-3 times more, so your battery cost scales up
accordingly. Are you prepared to spend $2000-$3000 for 50 miles, or
$10,000-$15,000 for 100 miles range?
I would consider making it a hybrid. Daimler-Benz is doing this
themselves (but no idea if/when it will ever be marketed here).
These vehicles are front engine, front wheel drive, but are offered
everywhere in the world except the USA with a 4 wheel drive option.
They have independent rear suspension; you can see the inside ends
of the rear axles where universal joints bolt to them, and room for
the differential and drive shaft to the front. If you buy these
parts from Canada, Mexico, Europe etc. you can add a rear drive
setup. Instead of a drive shaft to the front, install an electric
motor. There's room under the floor for a modest battery pack;
enough for a 10-20 mile range and low speed around-town driving.
Use the diesel for high speeds, long trips, and to recharge your
batteries. This scales down the whole problem, making it more
affordable and less risky.
I've been considering hybrid as well. One poster suggested bio
diesel, but I need to study up on the conversion requirements first.
Can I make a solar-electric-biodiesel hybrid? Or is that just getting
ridiculously complicated?
Another thought (a pet idea of mine ;-) is to pick a different
vehicle, one more suited to be an EV motor home. Google "ultravan".
This is an ultralight ultraefficient 22 ft. motorhome, built more
like an airplane than a truck. An electric/hybrid ultravan might be
ideal for the kind of lifestyle you are thinking of.
I'll look up this "ultravan" to see what I can find. I've never heard
of it before now.
Thanks for the info! :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > Have you tried getting a quote on having a new spline cut on the
> > shortened axle so that the inner CV joint can simply be
> > re-installed?
>
> A quick check said that would be more expensive than buying a
> new short axle.
Odd, since a new short axle would have to have had splines machined on
one or both ends as well...
> Well, *we* have to become composites experts to build this
> car. So maybe *we* can make that composite tube. Best-case,
> the builder might only need to cut the axles with a hack saw,
> clean them, slide them into the provided composite tube, and
> bond with the supplied adhesive per instructions.
> Remember, this is a composite car. The builder will have to
> bond the various composite pieces together in any case.
I was really hoping that you would be designing the kit such that the
builder doesn't have to do any composite work at all. That is, the
body/chassis would arrive as a single piece to which the builder would
simply bolt on the suspension bits from the donor car(s), etc., and then
attach the doors, etc.
> I think shortened axles like this are always full custom
> (part of the reason for the high price), but it's possible
> that somebody somewhere has needed a shorter T-bird axle
> for some reason.
The adjustable/telescoping halfshaft that Roland came across certainly
sounds like a perfect solution, if you can find them for the T-bird.
> Of course, the real reason for the shortened axles is that
> the Sunrise, like the GM EV1 and Honda Insight, deliberately
> used a narrowed rear end and fender skirts for efficiency
> and aerodynamics.
> Some Sunrises had a 52" rear track; some 58". The T'bird
> is 61" as-is.
Hmmm... So close and yet so far. I don't suppose you'd consider
widening the whole car by 3" so that the stock T'bird 61" track would
fit within the still narrower than front track?
While this would be a fair bit of effort now, it would be a one-time
affair rather than adding some complexity and cost to every Sunrise
assembled...
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would spend just a little more and go with the AGM (absorbed glass mat) over
the gel for a couple of reasons. Like the gel they are maintance free, but also
don't sag on voltage during high current demands. Plus they can be charged and
discharged at much higher rates. In my truck I use flooded and they sag like
crazy. In another vehicle I use AGM's and really like them.
Bob
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
OK, this is very helpful; thank you. OK, so Li-Io are out of the
question, at least for the next few years until the prices fall from
the stratosphere. My second choice would have been the Deep-Cycle Gel
batteries like the kind typically used in marine applications, and it
seems this is what you're suggesting. It would be great if I could
use the maintenance-free enclosed type instead of having to remember
to add water, but I guess if need be I could always remind myself in
iCal.
Charging in an RV park or public campground (less expensive than RV
parks these days it seems) sounds like a good idea for most dayswhat
about rest stops? Do they have AC outlets at any of those? Would it
ever be possible to run a long cord from the vehicle to an outlet in
the restroom of the building? Saving money anywhere I can will help a
lot.
A 125-watt solar panel is approximately 24"x48" right? So, 1000 watts
would need about 8 panels and would take up, say 16'?? I think a
Sprinter is only about 10' long. Are larger wattage panels only
slightly larger in dimensions? Would it be better to have a whole
bunch of smaller-watt panels strung together or a few much larger
panels? Does it really matter? I should be able to maintain my entire
interior arsenal with only one solar panel, and I may get one I can
carry with me in a backpack (foldable) to operate my laptop and
accessories. In any case, I obviously won't be able to afford to get
all of the panels straightaway; I'll have to start out with plug-in
charging for the most part. Solar panels have a long lifespan, don't
they? I'm hoping they could be an investment that eventually I'll
uninstall from the vehicle and install elsewhere after I'm done with
the van; is this possible, or would I have to replace the panels
nearly as often as the batteries?
I don't want to have to resort to diesel/electric hybrid, but I guess
if I can find no other viable solutions, I might have to consider it.
Is it any more difficult to do a hybrid conversion than an all-
electric one? See, I don't like doing all that maintenance on an ICE
engine, and I don't want to take the darn thing to a mechanic all the
time because the only one I trust to NOT rip me off is my uncle, and
he won't be traveling with me. Plus, messing with oil and fluids and
such isn't my idea of fun.
On Feb 16, 2007, at 12:31 AM, Robert Lemke wrote:
> Welcome to the group. I think the Sprinter is a perfect canidate
> for what you have in mind. For eff. I would go AC. This will help
> you decide http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/motor.htm
>
> I have crunched some numbers. Lio ion are great batteries but
> would take a $50 grand investment. I suggest you deal with the
> weight and choose AGM batteries. Your Sprinter with its diesel
> knocks down 25 mpg, so with an AC motor I would guess around 350
> whr/mile. So to have a 75 mile range would require a bank of 27kw/
> hr. AGM's would weigh 1900 lbs. In your travels, when you max out
> your range pull into an RV park for an overnight stay. This would
> top off your dischared batteries overnight. If you have room for
> 1000 watts in panels and can get 9 hours exposure, then you need 3
> days to recharge.
>
> Bob
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I just joined this list yesterday, and I've considered going electric
> for quite some time but only started seriously researching it last
> week. I'm not really "into" cars as it were, I just use them to get
> from point A to point B, but my uncle's a mechanic with over 30-35
> years' experience and has agreed to help me do a conversion, and
> although he seemed to be somewhat familiar with the terminology and
> other information I've learned from my research, I don't think he's
> ever actually done an EV conversion before. But he said he was
> willing to help me out, so I have started collecting as many details
> as possible. I've found parts suppliers, online instructions from
> others who have done their own conversions, and lots of enthusiasm
> for EVs in general; I have also, however, found much conflicting
> information about what is and isn't possible, along with a lot of
> gloom-and-doom nay-sayers who insist none of the effort is worth the
> end result. I am convinced this is something I want to do, but I have
> to get the logistics worked out and figure out how I can make it work
> for my situation. Perhaps some of you could help me.
>
> This message is long; I apologize; I'm very serious about learning
> how to do this properly, so I may seem a bit overzealous in my
> enthusiasm.
>
> First, do ALL conversions have to be tiny cars? I love the tiny cars
> as a rule, but for this application it's not possible. I'm not
> looking to convert a behemoth or anything, as I'm just as disgusted
> by those as many EV enthusiasts are. The vehicle I'm hoping to
> convert is something like a Dodge Sprinter (the short body 118"
> version, which is about the length of a mini-van, but I need to get
> the high roof version, which measures 73" or 6 ft standing room from
> floor to ceiling), and it will be empty when I start except for the
> front driver/passenger seats. I won't be loading it up with junk,
> just modest camping/office accommodations and I'll be powering all my
> electricity-requiring stuff by a solar panel. I need enough power to
> propel the vehicle at highway-legal speeds for as long of a range as
> possible given the current battery technologies available (perhaps
> Lithium-Polymer, as suggested on a site by a guy who outlined his
> conversion in detail), but I'm not pre-occupied with any of the
> performance-type concerns of sports car people. 55-65 mph would be
> plenty, as long as it won't creep like a turtle while going up a
> hill. It needs to transport me and my two small lap-size dogs, plus
> my gear, which is miniscule compared to most people's standards, and
> I'd like to use regenerative braking to help with some of the energy
> generation, plus I'd like to connect solar panels (separate from the
> one that will run my laptop, etc.), NOT to recharge while driving
> necessarily as I've read that doesn't really work all that well, but
> instead to recharge on the days I'm NOT driving, such as while
> sitting in a national park or campground. So I need to find
> instructions on how to actually hook up the batteries to roof-mounted
> solar panels rather than stationary panels at a home location. It
> will be much lighter overall than a factory-built camper van, as I
> will be building the interior myself, sans most of the heavy stuff
> they usually stick in those things.
>
> Whew, that was a mouthful. I may have forgotten something, but I'm
> sure it'll come out during the course of this discussion.
>
> I'll be fully self-contained for extended periods in this vehicle,
> taking photographs, writing essays, and remotely working with my
> laptop and wireless card. I will plug into grid power when available,
> but I don't want to have to rely on any outside sources during my
> travels. I realize that I won't be able to drive every day because
> some days will be "charging only" days, and I know I'm not going to
> be able to drive for hours and hours without stopping (unless I can
> find some feasible batteries that provide more range than what I've
> been able to find thus far). Although the vehicle will be for long-
> distance travel, it's not like a race or anything. It's for driving a
> couple hours, then stopping to work for several hours and take
> photographs at various locations during daylight hours then charging
> the batteries the next day while working on-site, then heading off
> the next day with a full charge. During this time, I'll be doing
> multiple things: freelancing, operating a website, and working on a
> doctorate, and I plan to travel only where it's not cold (spring/
> summer/fall in colder climates, year-round in places with warm
> climates). But becoming energy-independent is very important to me
> and I am determined to alleviate fossil fuels.
>
> I hope I'm explaining this clearly enough, as I know I can get chatty
> and ramble on when I get excited.
>
> I also realize that what I'm proposing will probably draw a lot of
> negative responses from people who say it's just not possible, but I
> don't care, I'm going to do it anyway, so the more helpful
> information I can collect the better. I will find a way to make it
> work successfully; it's just non-negotiable. I won't give up until I
> figure it out; it's an integral part of my overall mission. If I need
> to make certain concessions in some places to make it work, then I'll
> consider that once all alternatives have proven ineffective.
>
> Second major issue: I need to figure out the maximum number of
> batteries I can put into the thing without it weighing me down so
> much that it negates their value. I also would prefer not to blow up,
> of course. ;-) From what I've read so far, it appears that for my
> application, AC would be better than DC, but correct me if you think
> I'm mistaken. I'm wondering if it's possible to mount batteries
> underneath the van, as there's extra space not available in a small
> car (much like those who convert pickups put batteries in the truck
> bed), and how far above the ground do the need to be, etc? What's the
> maximum amps each battery can have, as I've found deep-cycle
> batteries available up to over 200 amp hours. I'm probably going to
> need 12-volt instead of 6-volt, but I could be wrong there too.
>
> How many batteries can go with each controller, motor, etc? Is it
> possible to have two separate systems that I can flip a switch
> between? For example, to run the vehicle off one set while charging
> the other via solar? This may sound silly, but I haven't found any
> info yet that specifically says this is impossible, so I have to ask.
>
> I need to be as economical as humanly possible given the parameters I
> need to achieve, so any details about how much all this will cost
> (except the solar, as I've already found the info I need about that)
> and where to get the best deal on the electric conversion parts would
> be most appreciated.
>
> OK, I've wasted enough of your time tonight; hopefully I will learn
> more about this from all of you.
>
> One last question: Is it possible to receive these messages in digest
> format? I only joined yesterday and I've already received nearly 200
> individual messages, and my inbox is difficult to navigate as a
> result.
>
> If you've actually read this far, thanks a bunch for your time,
>
> Crystal :-)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:55 AM 2/16/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The site doesn't seem to tell me what this does exactly. It's a
charger, yes, but what good does it do me if I have to plug it into
an AC outlet anyway? I'm not sure I understand the purpose of this
and how it works and how it will afford me a greater range.
I don't have the context of your original question.
PFC-xx chargers are used in many EV's because they are good, have
good support, and do the job well.
They make charging your batteries easy and faster. In an EV you
ALWAYS have to charge from somewhere, and from an AC line the PFC
chargers are excellent.
IF you are also doing some kind of series hybrid, you can also use
your PFC charger to "charge" the pack (supply appropriate DC voltage)
from an onboard generator.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
4 wheel motors from www.pmlflightlink.co.uk and lithium batteries
from Kokam, that's what I'ld do
When you ask for more power you need better transmissions and better
tyres and so on, and soon get into the spiralling costs scenario
So if you only need to get more, take a motor, a true electric motor
from train, build a vehicle around that and power it with a 30kW
gasturbine generator from Capstone microturbines !
Chris
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> EV1, Tesla, Tango
>
> If you had one of these(or all of them), and you wanted to mod them
> for even more 1/4 mile performance; how would you do so?
>
> If you could buy an electric Vette or Mustang or import; how would
you
> mod it for more performance?
>
> The motor is a motor. Swap it out for another?
>
> Mod the controller/inverter? Highly unlikely. Most likely
> impossible? Anyone modded their Zilla for 450v and 2500+ amps?
> Probably will never happen in the history of man. If I had a large
> sum of money; I'd bet on it.
>
> Batteries? Can't really pump up the voltage when already at the
> limits of the controller/inverter.
>
> So in a plausible future time if EV's were common place; would it be
> possible to mod them for increased performance?
>
>
>
> -----
> Bonus story
>
> I was at work sitting in my truck noticing all the other trucks in
the
> parking lot and the stark contrast to all the Hondas in the parking
> lot. I thought "I ought to get one of those to commute to work in."
> I'll convert my truck over to electric. Drive the Honda when the
> weather is nice. I want an ~$800 Honda. Strip it down to the bare
> unibody, put it on a rotissery, inspect it and paint it a nice color
> inside and out, and underneath. Meticulously reassemble it. Need a
> $2,000 aftermarket block for it(at what hp limit does the stock
block
> fail and what is it's mode of failure?). Stroker
> kit(crank/rods/pistons)$1,400. Aftermarket head(too much).
> Turbo(cheap). Megasquirt for the EFI(fair). 450+hp minimum.
600+hp
> desired. Need a trans that's up to it. Biggest drag radials I can
> fit. Commuting to work in my Honda just like everyone else... Good
> times. Get the Stang up to about 1400+hp on E85(~105 octane).
>
> "2,000hp" car on the street. Though really, they have tuned down to
> "~1,000hp"...
>
> http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/videos/turbo/BUTCHINLOW.wmv
> http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/videos/turbo/BUTCHINHIGH.wmv
> http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/
>
> I see their 3,000hp motor and think "how do you mod it for 3,500?"
> Then when that's done "how about 4,000hp?" More is never enough.
>
> What size motor for the electric truck? How many? I want maximum
> performance and range. My commute is ~20+ miles at 70+mph one way.
> Can't charge at work. No lights, no nothing in that parking lot and
> fenced off and far, far away from any building. GM says the battery
> doesn't exist. They don't fancy the thought of ~15,000 A123's all
> interconnected. Now if A123 made a large format battery... Why
can't
> they and what's stopping them considering all those millions of
> dollars they have recently received? Is their battery scalable?
Can
> it be made in any size and shape? How about 1' square cubes? What
> would be the most desirable, convenient, and useful size/shape? A
12
> volt A123 deep cycle SLA battery? What year do you predict lithium
> will be able to compete with lead on price?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow! That's some fat rubber!
I don't know if there is a formula, but in theory the less contact there is
with the road the less friction you have to overcome. On my Saturn conversion
I focused a lot on reducing losses in the wheels. The car had some no-name
195 width tires on it, which I think was the stock tire size. I ended up putting
a 185/60R15 Goodyear Integrity tire on it. These are "fuel efficient" as they
say on the web site. I have no rolling resistance numbers for them but they are
used on a lot of OEM vehicles. Between going a little skinnier and the rolling
resistance it made a good 10 amp improvement in current draw in the city!
>From there I bought some Kosie racing wheels from Tire Rack. The 15's only
>weigh
12.6 lbs, which is ~8 lbs a piece less than the stock Saturn alloys! This made
the
biggest difference of all. Not only do they look good but what took 200 amps to
accelerate now only took 150 amps to accelerate just as quickly. The car wouln't
roll quite as much after you took your foot of the go pedal (though I'm sure if
I
took it up to 50 and let off the pedal it would still take a few miles before
the
car came to a stop).
Rick
-------------------------------------------
I'm interested in this formula as well. I have fairly large tires
275/60/15 - about 10 inches wide and I'm thinking about changing them
to
a narrower tire. Would my money be well spent here?
John Grigg
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/723
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark E. Hanson
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 5:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Wide vs Skinny Tires LRR
Hi,
Is there a formulae for tire width vs LRR? I need to buy new tires
for my electric Porsche and there are P155, P165 and P195 options. I
assume that the skinnier tire always wins in LRR but by what
measureable
percentage? Is there measureable data or a formulae for width, are we
talking about 5% range difference (or MPG) or is it a fraction of a
percent? When wider tires are used there's obviously a larger contact
patch area but the pressure to the road per square inch is decreased so
it may not be a huge percentage.
Best Regards,
Mark
---------------------------------
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Funny how close EV and PV are related that you even slip on it:
EV isn't being discussed here.
I guess you meant PV is not discussed on this list, alternatively you may
have said that the subject EV is not touched in this thread, which makes it
inappropriate (OT).
Cor.
Yes, I meant EVs were not discussed in this thread.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Feb 16, 2007, at 2:22 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: February 16, 2007 9:56:19 AM CST
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: First post
Hi Crystal,
Northern California is large, but if you are near San Francisco
than you
will find at least 5 local EAA (Electric Auto Association) chapters
around
the Bay Area. My direct involvement with EVs got really started after
attending the Palo Alto EV rally and show and visiting the local
chapters
meeting in Palo Alto and San Jose.
Another hot EV area seems to be around Portland.
Welcome to the Left Coast!
Cor.
I may get involved in something like that eventually, but I need to
build my vehicle while I'm still here – my uncle has a garage and
tools and stuff and I can stay with my mom and/or grandparents for as
long as it takes to complete. I can't get from here to there without
a vehicle, and I've already petro-powered my way probably close to
15K miles over the past ten years, and that's not counting the twice
I flew between NY and Europe. But I didn't know any better then; Now
I do, and I can't seem to squelch my conscience on this one.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 7:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: First post
I am currently in Iowa, where I grew up, but once I leave again, I'll
probably be spending most of my time in Northern California and/or
Pacific
Northwest areas, at least for the next few years.
On Feb 15, 2007, at 11:39 PM, Mike Willmon wrote:
Crystal,
BTW, where in this world of ours are you located?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: February 16, 2007 11:36:03 AM CST
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: First post
Correct,
Solar panels live long. They are often guaranteed to deliver 90% of
their
rated output for 20 years, check the data from the manufacturer you
like.
Solar panel output goes by the surface area, so to get twice the
output you
need twice the size of silicon.
Great, that's the answer I was hoping for!
Solar panels can be re-used as their life is so long and their
value high.
If the roof area is not sufficient then you can consider solar
panels on a
separate support.
Could be attached to the van, or free-standing.
Due to the price of solar, you may need to start with more relying on
plug-in.
Minimum price of solar panels is $4 per watt, so if you need 1000W
that
costs over $4000 for the panels alone.
You will need some electronics to charge the battery, although if you
configure the panels in a smart way then the same charger that you
plug in
may also be able to work from the solar panels, depending on how it
works
internally. To achieve maximum output from the panels thay need to
be loaded
near their MPP (Max Power Point) which is a "crossover" point between
voltage and current delivered by the panel and looks like a
sideways view of
the leg of someone sitting on a chair: the upper part of the leg
represents
the section where voltage slowly drops of while current increases
up to the
maximum power output, where the "knee" is located, after that the
lower part
of the leg represents the part where voltage drops quickly when
current
slowly rises a little bit. You want to stay in the "knee", so solar
equipment is designed to operate either at a fixed voltage near
this point
or to "seek" this point by measuring the open circuit voltage and
multiplying that by a factor, usually 0.7
Oh my word....I think I need a picture...I'm a visual learner. Do you
know off hand where I could find a diagram or something? :)
Now a typical EV charger knows nothing of this all, so either you
need a
modified charger or careful configure your panels to match the
charger or
accept that the solar power is not used in an optimal way - which
would be a
waste since the panels are so expensive.
A dedicated solar charger is usually configured for 12; 24 or 48V
operation.
Too low for a typical EV. Either you need to switch battery
configuration or
use a dedicated charger.
If you use a charger with PFC (Power Factor Correction) then that
is not
going to work for direct solar input, because it has a negative
resistance
characteristic, so it will always move away from the "knee" point.
Also a charger with a 60 Hz transformer will not work, because
solar panels
make DC, not AC.
Right, but you can invert the DC power collected from the panels,
correct?
If you can find a good charger that specifies that it can be
supplied with
DC and is not PFC or if you can get an old charger that can be opened
without voiding warranty (because it does not have any) and you
plug your
solar input straight into the section that regulates the battery
charging,
then that may work.
Alternative is a dedicated charger, which can be as simple as a big
diode
from the panels to the batteries and a circuit to compare battery
voltage to
a max threshold and if it gets over the threshold, then to short-
circuit the
solar panels with a power FET. Solar panels are OK being short-
circuited, as
they have a "current source" characteristic - the current is
depending on
the amount of light and does not increase when shorted.
BTW, typical solar panel size for a certain wattage can be
calculated from
their efficiency (around 12%) and the solar irradiation which is up
to 100W
per square feet. 2' x 4' would yield about 100W power with this
efficiency,
though there are better quality panels with higher efficiency and
price.
Hope this helps,
Cor.
Yes, it does. Thanks.
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: February 16, 2007 2:14:51 PM CST
To: [email protected], chris lewis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: First post
Hi Crystal,
You are confusing bio-diesel (which is used exactly like normal
diesel) with
the use of straight vegetable oil in a diesel engine.
The latter means you can go into any grocery store, buy a gallon of
vegetable oil, pour it in the tank and drive away - if the temp is
high
enough.
If the veg oil is too cold, then the engine cannot inject it
properly and
won't run on it.
Ah, I see. So using regular vegetable oil requires heating up first,
but bio-diesel requires virtually no conversion of the diesel engine
at all. But I've never seen a bio-diesel fuel pump (here in Iowa, we
have ethanol-infused gasoline, which practically everyone uses as
it's always a few cents cheaper than the premium, plus a few E85
pumps at select locations, but not all cars and certain year models
are compatible with the E85 blend. So is it safe to carry extra
containers of bio-diesel with me for filling up just in case I can't
find a station that sells it?
BTW, most people prefer to run on *used* vegetable oil, so they are
not
adding to the consumption.
If you search Craigslist for free veg oil, you will find several
offers most
of the time, though you are expected to pick it up and quantities
vary.
Bio-diesel can be home-made from veg oil, though it is not a clean
process.
Luckily you get lots of soap in the process ;-)
Most people buy bio-diesel at the pumps that offer it.
I'm not sure I want to dive into brewing my own fuel like that; isn't
it a messy process that would take more room than I will have to
spare? What's the mpg for bio-diesel? Is it similar to using regular
diesel, or do you get more bang for your buck? That's why going
electric would be soooo convenient. It just seems silly that we don't
have better battery technology by now (even if it is a conspiracy) –
I mean, we've had many decades to come up with a solution; we should
have had electric cars in the eighties when I was growing up!!
Argh...It's infuriating!
HomePower magazine (and I am sure others) did several specials on the
"veggie van" and on how to make your own bio-diesel from veg oil.
I've read about the veggie van; they say it smells like driving by
McDonald's. Is that true?
Hope this clarifies,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Crystal Silver
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 11:29 AM
To: chris lewis
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: Re: First post
All the stuff I've read about bio-diesel operation sounds complicated
- like having to run the diesel motor with gasoline first then
turning over
to the "grease" power after the engine is warmed up, and stuff like
that...then carrying the veggie oils in the trunk and doing
filtering every
time...are there instructions somewhere that make it as simple as what
you've made it sound? And will my vehicle constantly wreak of
french fries?
I've also read that some places in the U.S. are getting wind of
this and are
starting to charge people to take their used grease. I'm not sure how
prevalent this practice is, but sounds like something they'd try to
profit
from here. Does bio diesel require changing the oil the same as
regular
gasoline? Is everything else the same as operating a regular guzzle-
mobile?
I do know that diesel engines were originally designed for this
purpose, but
I have never actually gone through the process of figuring out how to
implement it myself. But I did see one of Morgan Spurlock's
programs one
time where they were filming at the Dancing Rabbit eco-village (in
Missouri?), and all the steps they had to go through just to make
their
vehicle operate seemed a bit counter- productive. Just getting a
fill-up
seemed to be an all-day ordeal.
I am interested in hearing more about this, however, as the more
efficiently
and inexpensively (and quickly) I can get up-and-running the better.
Thanks for the info.
On Feb 16, 2007, at 1:05 PM, chris lewis wrote:
From reading your requirements and the environment you'll be in ie;
the locations I dont think an EV is going to be practical. You might
want to consider something that's catching on here in Europe..... bio
fuel - cooking oil or like the Brits say chip fat.
The diesel engine was originally design to run on oil seed, not
fossil
fuels.
So take a diesel engine vehicle, swap the fuel filter, run the take
dry of diesel, refill with cooking oil (used chip fat is free! you
just need to filter it). Start engine, engage transmission, drive
off.
chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most of the noise made by vehicles at higher speeds seems to be coming
from the tires on the road surface.
Kip C. Anderson wrote:
After driving a hybrid vehicle for 6 months, I'd suggest that a little
noise when you travel is a good thing. Allot of people with GOOD
hearing use their ears for vehicular clues when walking across streets
and parking lots. I lost count of how meany people we caught off guard
when our ICE was dormant. The blind don't even have a chance.
I would not be surprised if a noise making device of low volume
becomes mandatory on hybrids and electrics in the future.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, I know it's better than wasting the oil, but I just think
they're getting a little greedy that's all. I'd be doing them a
service, after all by taking their trash off their hands so they no
longer have to deal with it. Yes, I'm becoming a bit of a cheapskate,
but it's a necessary evil for me at the moment that can't be easily
remedied. ;)
I'll keep reading up on it. We'll see what happens. Thanks for the info!
On Feb 16, 2007, at 3:05 PM, chris lewis wrote:
Crystal, couple of things. 1) diesels are partially self
lubricating so oil changes are no where near as frequent as a gas
(pertol) engine needs. 2) even if these that are 'throwing out'
cooking fat are now getting sight of $ surly its better that the
used oil just being dumped.
= you'll be recycling!
its a lot cheaper and with significantly less impact on the
environment - you'll be using a used vehicle, not purchasing newly
manufactured parts, motors, chargers, batteries, solar panels
etc ... etc...
Its about application, I'm in no way discrediting EV's I'm in fact
looking at converting 911's here in the UK for people that have to
commute into London and pay £8($16) per day for the privilege. EV's
are exempt.
Here is a pretty good piece done on UK TV about the subject of bio
fuel conversion ie; running a diesel on chip fat http://
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCmfT1XvdNw
Chris
Crystal Silver wrote:
All the stuff I've read about bio-diesel operation sounds
complicated - like having to run the diesel motor with gasoline
first then turning over to the "grease" power after the engine is
warmed up, and stuff like that...then carrying the veggie oils in
the trunk and doing filtering every time...are there instructions
somewhere that make it as simple as what you've made it sound?
And will my vehicle constantly wreak of french fries? I've also
read that some places in the U.S. are getting wind of this and
are starting to charge people to take their used grease. I'm not
sure how prevalent this practice is, but sounds like something
they'd try to profit from here. Does bio diesel require changing
the oil the same as regular gasoline? Is everything else the same
as operating a regular guzzle-mobile?
I do know that diesel engines were originally designed for this
purpose, but I have never actually gone through the process of
figuring out how to implement it myself. But I did see one of
Morgan Spurlock's programs one time where they were filming at
the Dancing Rabbit eco-village (in Missouri?), and all the steps
they had to go through just to make their vehicle operate seemed
a bit counter- productive. Just getting a fill-up seemed to be an
all-day ordeal.
I am interested in hearing more about this, however, as the more
efficiently and inexpensively (and quickly) I can get up-and-
running the better.
Thanks for the info.
On Feb 16, 2007, at 1:05 PM, chris lewis wrote:
From reading your requirements and the environment you'll be in
ie; the locations I dont think an EV is going to be practical.
You might want to consider something that's catching on here in
Europe..... bio fuel - cooking oil or like the Brits say chip
fat. The diesel engine was originally design to run on oil seed,
not fossil fuels.
So take a diesel engine vehicle, swap the fuel filter, run the
take dry of diesel, refill with cooking oil (used chip fat is
free! you just need to filter it). Start engine, engage
transmission, drive off.
chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
OK, this is very helpful; thank you. OK, so Li-Io are out of
the question, at least for the next few years until the prices
fall from the stratosphere. My second choice would have been
the Deep- Cycle Gel batteries like the kind typically used in
marine applications, and it seems this is what you're
suggesting. It would be great if I could use the maintenance-
free enclosed type instead of having to remember to add water,
but I guess if need be I could always remind myself in iCal.
Charging in an RV park or public campground (less expensive
than RV parks these days it seems) sounds like a good idea for
most days–what about rest stops? Do they have AC outlets at
any of those? Would it ever be possible to run a long cord
from the vehicle to an outlet in the restroom of the building?
Saving money anywhere I can will help a lot.
A 125-watt solar panel is approximately 24"x48" right? So, 1000
watts would need about 8 panels and would take up, say 16'?? I
think a Sprinter is only about 10' long. Are larger wattage
panels only slightly larger in dimensions? Would it be better
to have a whole bunch of smaller-watt panels strung together
or a few much larger panels? Does it really matter? I should
be able to maintain my entire interior arsenal with only one
solar panel, and I may get one I can carry with me in a
backpack (foldable) to operate my laptop and accessories. In
any case, I obviously won't be able to afford to get all of
the panels straightaway; I'll have to start out with plug-in
charging for the most part. Solar panels have a long lifespan,
don't they? I'm hoping they could be an investment that
eventually I'll uninstall from the vehicle and install
elsewhere after I'm done with the van; is this possible, or
would I have to replace the panels nearly as often as the
batteries?
I don't want to have to resort to diesel/electric hybrid, but I
guess if I can find no other viable solutions, I might have to
consider it. Is it any more difficult to do a hybrid
conversion than an all- electric one? See, I don't like doing
all that maintenance on an ICE engine, and I don't want to
take the darn thing to a mechanic all the time because the
only one I trust to NOT rip me off is my uncle, and he won't
be traveling with me. Plus, messing with oil and fluids and
such isn't my idea of fun.
On Feb 16, 2007, at 12:31 AM, Robert Lemke wrote:
Welcome to the group. I think the Sprinter is a perfect
canidate for what you have in mind. For eff. I would go AC.
This will help you decide http://www.metricmind.com/
ac_honda/motor.htm
I have crunched some numbers. Lio ion are great batteries
but would take a $50 grand investment. I suggest you deal
with the weight and choose AGM batteries. Your Sprinter with
its diesel knocks down 25 mpg, so with an AC motor I would
guess around 350 whr/mile. So to have a 75 mile range would
require a bank of 27kw/ hr. AGM's would weigh 1900 lbs. In
your travels, when you max out your range pull into an RV
park for an overnight stay. This would top off your dischared
batteries overnight. If you have room for 1000 watts in
panels and can get 9 hours exposure, then you need 3 days to
recharge.
Bob
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi there,
I just joined this list yesterday, and I've considered going
electric
for quite some time but only started seriously researching it last
week. I'm not really "into" cars as it were, I just use them to
get
from point A to point B, but my uncle's a mechanic with over 30-35
years' experience and has agreed to help me do a conversion, and
although he seemed to be somewhat familiar with the terminology
and
other information I've learned from my research, I don't think
he's
ever actually done an EV conversion before. But he said he was
willing to help me out, so I have started collecting as many
details
as possible. I've found parts suppliers, online instructions from
others who have done their own conversions, and lots of enthusiasm
for EVs in general; I have also, however, found much conflicting
information about what is and isn't possible, along with a lot of
gloom-and-doom nay-sayers who insist none of the effort is
worth the
end result. I am convinced this is something I want to do, but
I have
to get the logistics worked out and figure out how I can make
it work
for my situation. Perhaps some of you could help me.
This message is long; I apologize; I'm very serious about learning
how to do this properly, so I may seem a bit overzealous in my
enthusiasm.
First, do ALL conversions have to be tiny cars? I love the tiny
cars
as a rule, but for this application it's not possible. I'm not
looking to convert a behemoth or anything, as I'm just as
disgusted
by those as many EV enthusiasts are. The vehicle I'm hoping to
convert is something like a Dodge Sprinter (the short body 118"
version, which is about the length of a mini-van, but I need to
get
the high roof version, which measures 73" or 6 ft standing room
from
floor to ceiling), and it will be empty when I start except for
the
front driver/passenger seats. I won't be loading it up with junk,
just modest camping/office accommodations and I'll be powering
all my
electricity-requiring stuff by a solar panel. I need enough
power to
propel the vehicle at highway-legal speeds for as long of a
range as
possible given the current battery technologies available (perhaps
Lithium-Polymer, as suggested on a site by a guy who outlined his
conversion in detail), but I'm not pre-occupied with any of the
performance-type concerns of sports car people. 55-65 mph would be
plenty, as long as it won't creep like a turtle while going up a
hill. It needs to transport me and my two small lap-size dogs,
plus
my gear, which is miniscule compared to most people's
standards, and
I'd like to use regenerative braking to help with some of the
energy
generation, plus I'd like to connect solar panels (separate
from the
one that will run my laptop, etc.), NOT to recharge while driving
necessarily as I've read that doesn't really work all that
well, but
instead to recharge on the days I'm NOT driving, such as while
sitting in a national park or campground. So I need to find
instructions on how to actually hook up the batteries to roof-
mounted
solar panels rather than stationary panels at a home location. It
will be much lighter overall than a factory-built camper van, as I
will be building the interior myself, sans most of the heavy stuff
they usually stick in those things.
Whew, that was a mouthful. I may have forgotten something, but I'm
sure it'll come out during the course of this discussion.
I'll be fully self-contained for extended periods in this vehicle,
taking photographs, writing essays, and remotely working with my
laptop and wireless card. I will plug into grid power when
available,
but I don't want to have to rely on any outside sources during my
travels. I realize that I won't be able to drive every day because
some days will be "charging only" days, and I know I'm not
going to
be able to drive for hours and hours without stopping (unless I
can
find some feasible batteries that provide more range than what
I've
been able to find thus far). Although the vehicle will be for
long-
distance travel, it's not like a race or anything. It's for
driving a
couple hours, then stopping to work for several hours and take
photographs at various locations during daylight hours then
charging
the batteries the next day while working on-site, then heading off
the next day with a full charge. During this time, I'll be doing
multiple things: freelancing, operating a website, and working
on a
doctorate, and I plan to travel only where it's not cold (spring/
summer/fall in colder climates, year-round in places with warm
climates). But becoming energy-independent is very important to me
and I am determined to alleviate fossil fuels.
I hope I'm explaining this clearly enough, as I know I can get
chatty
and ramble on when I get excited.
I also realize that what I'm proposing will probably draw a lot of
negative responses from people who say it's just not possible,
but I
don't care, I'm going to do it anyway, so the more helpful
information I can collect the better. I will find a way to make it
work successfully; it's just non-negotiable. I won't give up
until I
figure it out; it's an integral part of my overall mission. If
I need
to make certain concessions in some places to make it work,
then I'll
consider that once all alternatives have proven ineffective.
Second major issue: I need to figure out the maximum number of
batteries I can put into the thing without it weighing me down so
much that it negates their value. I also would prefer not to
blow up,
of course. ;-) From what I've read so far, it appears that for my
application, AC would be better than DC, but correct me if you
think
I'm mistaken. I'm wondering if it's possible to mount batteries
underneath the van, as there's extra space not available in a
small
car (much like those who convert pickups put batteries in the
truck
bed), and how far above the ground do the need to be, etc?
What's the
maximum amps each battery can have, as I've found deep-cycle
batteries available up to over 200 amp hours. I'm probably
going to
need 12-volt instead of 6-volt, but I could be wrong there too.
How many batteries can go with each controller, motor, etc? Is it
possible to have two separate systems that I can flip a switch
between? For example, to run the vehicle off one set while
charging
the other via solar? This may sound silly, but I haven't found any
info yet that specifically says this is impossible, so I have
to ask.
I need to be as economical as humanly possible given the
parameters I
need to achieve, so any details about how much all this will cost
(except the solar, as I've already found the info I need about
that)
and where to get the best deal on the electric conversion
parts would
be most appreciated.
OK, I've wasted enough of your time tonight; hopefully I will
learn
more about this from all of you.
One last question: Is it possible to receive these messages in
digest
format? I only joined yesterday and I've already received
nearly 200
individual messages, and my inbox is difficult to navigate as
a result.
If you've actually read this far, thanks a bunch for your time,
Crystal :-)
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