EV Digest 6442
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by Joseph Lado <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Cobasys / Chevron NiMH Patent
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag
of the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of pv's
on the roof?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) More Comments WAS Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Capacitor Range Helper
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag of the
vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of pv's on the roof?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: More Comments WAS Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Battery Woes
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Looking for crimp dies for very small ring terminals
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EVLN(MIT's The Car 2.0 : stackable EVs)
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Battery Woes
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV Paraglider
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV conversion questions
by Andrew Goodman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 450 HP in 60 little Orange Boxes!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: EV conversion questions
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
>ANd what exactly do you think congress can do about it? THe whole point
>of Patent law is to protect the patent holder, they are allowed to do just
>about anything they want with the patent, including NOT building it.
>This has been done numerous times in the past. SOmeone will patent
>something that threatens a big company, so they buy the patent and sit on
>it.
>
>It's called capitalism and its how our country works.
>
>> I'd love to see the lawsuit and the licensing agreement.
>>
>> If it specifically restricts electric vehicles I'd like to send it to
>> some congress members and activists.
>>
Patent Shelving is what I call what you are talking about. Where a company
takes out a patent so they can prevent others from putting in game changing
technology. I first heard of this in the corn syrup industry when I heard from
a friend who was a researcher for a corn sweetener company. This company took
in a lot of government money to do research, which made my friend really happy
since she could find work and be paid, however, the company would take the
patents and not produce the products. The companies lawyers were quick to sue
anyone who tried to produce anything close to what they held the patents to.
The strategy was simple. The company spend millions upon millions to develop
and build their corn syrup factory. If new technology made the production of
corn syrup easier and cheaper other companies might use that technology to put
them out of business. If they held the technology patents other companies
couldn't put game changing technology into the market place.
Since her company held the patents, why should they use the technology since
using the technology would mean that they would have to tear down their old
plant and build new ones at considerable cost and risk. So they would do the
research, the Federal Government typically footing the bill, the company would
then get the patents and simply put them on a shelf and forget about them, that
is until someone would try to put the technology into the market. Even though
this was the practice, it certainly was not the intention of the US Patent and
Trademark Office for patents to be used this way. In fact it is illegal to do
so.
There is a use or lose requirement for US patents. The criteria for use or lose
is simple, the Patent Office grants you a period of time in which you the
patent holder has a monopoly on the patent in order for you to make money on
your invention. The idea behind patents is to keep innovations coming and to
progress the movement of the industry to newer and better technology. During
the early days of digital calculators and early computers, the US Patent Office
was issuing patents for sometimes periods as short as 11 months. This is was
because the innovations were coming in so fast and furious that the Patent
Office didn't want to hinder the progress that was being made by companies like
Texas Instruments, Altair Computer, Apple, Tandy and Mits. (Read Fire In The
Valley). You have to be making progress to be making money for yourself or the
Patent Office can revoke your patent in short order to allow innovation to
continue uninhibited by your patent claims. They did this
quite a bit in the early days of the Silicon Valley with great success. The US
Patent Office needs to do this with battery technology now. They need to be
moving battery technology out of privately held hands that are not putting
product on the street and into the public domain so that others can do it.
I love Stanford Ovshinsky. He is in my book one of America's greatest
inventors, however, I believe he has been captured by Chevron and is living in
a gilded cage, unaware that his freedoms, and his ideas are being held hostage.
If he doesn't free them NOW, they will be relegated to the ash pile of history.
NIMH in small batteries have been wildly successful at replacing disposable
batteries. They have come down from the heady price of ten dollars a double A
to less than a buck today and twice the capacity with fast charging too. (See
my blog on this on EVWorld called Time Marches On!
http://www.evworld.com/blogs/index.cfm?page=blogentry&authorid=46&blogid=417&archive=1
) If large format batteries such as those used in the EV1 and the RAV4 EV were
on the market from when these vehicles were first introduced to today we would
have similar savings. The complaints that NIMH batteries for the RAV4 EV
costing 25,000 dollars or so would be gone when the batteries would hit 2,500
dollars. In the year 2003 Panasonic announced that they had reduced the weight
of the large format NIMH battery by 30% and had increased the capacity by 30%
or something like that. I think it may have been more than what I am putting
down here but I don't want to seem like I am over exagerating by putting large
numbers down. They made this announcement just before Cobasys came down on them
heavy with their lawsuit. Toyota used the improvements on NIMH that Panasonic
made to testify that the batteries were not the same at this point and that
Panasonic should be allowed to continue making the batteries and not paying
royalties. They lost and not only was Panasonic made to pay back royalties, but
they were stopped from producing the large format batteries.
This new tactic of preventing a Japanese company from producing a product is a
first. Stanford Ovshinsky was once dubbed by PBS as Japan's American Inventor
in a NOVA series in the late 80s, because he would invent things, try to sell
them to large US companies who would refuse to sell them and then he would find
his inventions being made in Japan. He would sue them for back royalties and
patent infringement and then he would allow them to continue manufacturing the
product in exchange for a royalty. Xerox wouldn't take up Stan's patent for the
amorphous drum technology. Cannon (of Japan) took Stan's technology and made a
series of copiers. Stan sued them and won, however, Cannon negotiated a patent
control agreement with Stanford Ovshinsky that allowed them to sell licensing
contracts to other manufacturers, Stan getting a royalty. For ten years Cannon
was in control of the beginnings of amorphous drum technology and Japan nearly
dominated the copier market for that period
of time. They still hold a large majority share. The technology lead to laser
printers used first by Apple which changed printing and copying forever. Xerox
was left crying in their soup. Stanford Ovshinsky had come knocking at their
door first. Back to our story, Stanford Ovshinsky would normally let the
offending manufacturer, (typically in Japan) continue producing the product
under special agreement. For some strange reason he didn't follow his usual way
of doing business with the large format NIMH batteries. Could it be Chevron's
involvement? I don't know, but it is not typical behavior for Stanford
Ovshinsky.
While at the EDTA Conference held in Washington DC this year, I was most
impressed with the GE booth. GE for the first time in a long time had pictures
of all of its innovative cars that it had developed over the years. I was so
happy to see this because when doing research on the history of the electric
car I found it hard to find GE's roll in much of it. I did find it, it was just
hard to find. I would find pictures from a visitor of a museum in a small out
of the way college where a rear GE prototype electric vehicle had been donated.
Things like that. GE, with its world class engineers has always had the
capacity to break into the automobile industry. It has held back mainly because
of backroom dealings with the major automakers, no doubt for a bigger piece of
the automobile industry electronics pie. On display for all to see in the GE
booth were new casements for a large format battery. Too big to be a laptop
battery and oddly shaped with two round tube holders in the
back. I picked one up and tried to figure it out. It was gray plastic with a
metal top. On one end it had positive and negative leads. On the other end it
had tube connectors one facing up the other down. Stamped in the metal on the
top when you turned it at an angle to the light it said. ECD Cobasys NIMH.
These were the casings of a new, large format battery that was much smaller
than anything I had ever seen. They were about as long as the former EV1 NIMH
batteries but they were between 1/ 6th to 1/4th the size. I asked the person
attending the booth whether these were for real batteries and he said that they
were to show casing that GE was able to make for the battery chemistry. I don't
know if you are familiar with the old NIMH batteries used in the RAV4 EV and
the EV1, but they were heavy. The casement was made out of some heavy steel
NIMH large format batteries, with its extra band of iron around it. I remember
when I first saw them wondered why the casements had to
be so heavy. Led acid batteries were heavy because of the led inside but the
casements were made of plastic. NIMH should have plastic casings I remember
thinking. I think there was fear that NIMH batteries could have thermal runaway
properties like Lithium does. This is the only reason that I can see for NIMH
batteries to have most of their advantage over led acid taken away with heavy
steel and iron casing, that being that the chemistry is much lighter than lead
acid. Now we know that NIMH doesn't explode or have thermal runaway properties.
The disordered combination of endothermic and exothermic reactive metals keeps
the batteries in check.
NIMH with the GE casements and the Panasonic improvements to weight and
capacity would be a formidable challenge to Lithium Ion. As we all now,
clearly, having choices in motive fuel is better for us, so is having choices
in battery chemistry as well. The US patent office needs to do its duty. They
need to stop Chevron, ECD, Ovonics, Cobasys from patent shelving NIMH. They
need to remove the barriers from other companies producing NIMH batteries for
the new world of electric vehicles and hybrids.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Frank John wrote:
My only concern with nickel batteries is that they seem to be
inefficient. They have great energy density but take ~twice the
grid electricity to recharge compared with PbA.
They are less efficient than lead-acid or lithium, but not nearly as bad
as 50%! If you're thinking of the nimh packs in GM EV1's, they were
inefficient because a) they used the Magnecharger, which has about twice
the losses of a conventional charger, b) they ran the car's air
conditioning system continuously while charging *in case* the pack
needed cooling.
To be quite honest, efficiency hardly ever matters to consumers. It's
rare for them to even know the efficiency, or ask about it when
purchasing. Batteries are so much more efficient than ICEs (20%) that it
hardly matters if they are 80% or 90%.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joseph Lado wrote:
Patent Shelving is what I call what you are talking about...
There is a use or lose requirement for US patents...
Good write-up, Joseph. I worked for big companies for most of my career,
and certainly did see patent shelving being routinely done. They also
trade patents between themselves like kids trade baseball cards.
I love Stanford Ovshinsky. He is in my book one of America's greatest
inventors, however, I believe he has been captured by Chevron and is
living in a gilded cage, unaware that his freedoms, and his ideas are
being held hostage.
Stan is a real character, I'll give you that! He's an odd mixture; half
genius and half showman. His operating strategy changed with nimh
because GM bought half interest in the company.
GE, with its world class engineers has always had the capacity to
break into the automobile industry.
They have frequently dabbled with EVs; but not in any serious way. An
occasional prototype to impress stockholders, but nothing serious. They
are more interested in EV components (motors, controller), and even that
interest is fleeting and fickle.
The case was heavy steel NIMH for large format batteries, with extra
bands of iron around it. I wonder why the casements had to be so heavy?
An nimh battery uses nickel and hydrogen as its working elements.
Hydrogen is of course a gas. To contain enough hydrogen, you need high
pressure and/or a very effective "sponge" to store it. The "metal
hydride" is a spongy metal alloy plate that adsorbs the hydrogen into
its pores, so you need less pressure to contain a given amount of it.
Earlier cells had less effective metal hydride plates; so the internal
gas pressure was higher. They needed strong cases to contain this pressure.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
Well keep in mind that the solar racers use rather "extreme"
construction. They are far from being practical vehicles in terms of
seating room, cargo capacity, durability, and safety.
That's for sure! It's a bit unfortunate, in fact. The solar racers seem
to be stuck in a rut, doing the same things over and over, rather than
innovating. Do you realize it's been over 20 years since the GM Sunraycer?
It would indeed be interesting if they changed the mission, and raised
the bar. What would solar cars look like if they had to accomplish a
"standard" 30-mile daily commute in normal traffic?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
I thought there was a negative dv/dt to detect on nimh.
There is, but it's smaller than with nicads and not very reliable.
What do I have to do to do to manage a series parallel stack of nimh?
Nimh in parallel are OK on discharge, but are thermally unstable on
charge. You would want to charge the strings separately (not in
parallel), or find some way to force them to be at the same temperature.
The other precaution is to monitor voltage so you don't overcharge them.
They are more tolerant of overcharging than lithiums, but not nearly as
tolerant as nicads.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lado" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: NiMH Batteries (was Re: Introductions)
> >ANd what exactly do you think congress can do about it? THe whole point
> >of Patent law is to protect the patent holder, they are allowed to do
just
> >about anything they want with the patent, including NOT building it.
> >This has been done numerous times in the past. SOmeone will patent
> >something that threatens a big company, so they buy the patent and sit on
> >it.
> >
> >It's called capitalism and its how our country works.
> > Hi EVerybody;
Gunna add a few comments to all this thoughtful response from Joe?
Congress should get off it's collective dead ass, and declare a National
Emergency. The Prez? Yeah, right? He will be too busy with other fluff;
Amending the Constutution, stopping Gay Marriage, protecting the Oil
Companies"God given" right to drill in national parks, or free leeases for
oil producing areas. Ya get my point,?Throwing more lives into a no-win war,
over, hand me the envelope, please;.... Oil!!
In MY perfect World, Washington Div. I would have the Prez get on the
Tube, Not, You Tube, and declare a National Energency. Apeal to American's
patriotic pride and SERIOUSLY think of conversavation; Buy economical cars,
use public transit. Scale down their wasteful lives a bit.The Battery
patents we all need, as Doug points out, are HERE and Now. We Nationalize
them, pay their owners what they are worth, no REALLY does Chevron NEED that
royalty. Ha Ha! They have more money than Jesus , NOW! But this is Free
Enterprise here, I'll play fair<g>!Raise the gas tax to pay for the battery
rights. It should refllect what it really costs, anyhow?
Order General Murders to get the EV-1 production line going. Toyota the
Rav line, rattle Ford's cage to bring back the Think. Give the Othe Car Co's
tax breaks to get some REAL EV's in production, like Tesla, the White Star
Line, more than the Titanic, here. I think they were gunna do a "White Star"
Car for the Rest of Us?
Electrify city transit? Trolley's and Trackless trolleys, clean up the
cities. Get those stinkin' Diseasel buses OUT of the cities. Throw a few bux
to highway coach builders for at least hybrid Grey hounds( Hy hounds?) and
Fung Hwa's. Fung Hwa is a BIG Chinese bus outfit in the East. Frankly I
don't see WHY the Chinese want to be in the USA Bus Biz?I THINK it means
Glorious Wind in English?The wonderful Chinese thing with names; Thunder Sky
and Sacred Son, for batteries, come to mind.
Start on a USA Bullet Train system, there are just too many Airplanes
smoking up the upper atmosphere, EVERYWHERE! Yes we need them, but not so
damn many. 200 plus wheeled(cheaper than Maglevs) trains should be doing the
bulk of travel in USA. We all could live with a 6 hour NYC Miami train,
Chicago NYC about the same. The 1934 speed record still stands for the
Pioneer Zephyr.Chicago-Denver!Other than Amtrak's Acela Express we havent
made much RR progress. Acela will do 150mph on the 30 miles of track we have
good enough(streight) to open her up!Do your E mail in "Flight"Of course all
electric, alota power made by wind turbines, in higher places.Or(gasp!)
nukes.
OK, down out of my fantesy world, but in reality, we have the tech
smarts to roll back oil consumption here. NOT buy any more overseas, keeping
our gold IN the USA for expensive RR, and transit projects. Jobs for
Americans in America, NOT illegal aliens.Oh they are hard workers, but they
send their pay HOME. Not into OUR economy.
Why does it take a Nobody, like me, to see this? Nobody home in
Washingtoon!? Dammit! We American Sheeple have to wake up, before it's too
late.
Yeah, money talks, runs the country, with the Best Govt. Oil Money can
Buy. Seems like I'm pissing to windward here.? Is it too late? Stay tuned,
for the next breathtaking saga.
Back to EV's
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bill,
I have done some work in this regard, putting ultracapacitors with batteries.
For a non-regen application, you are better off devoting the mass to more (or
bigger) batteries, not to mention the money. Such a system can make sense in a
stop-start intensive duty cycle when regeneration can recover kinetic energy to
charge the capacitor each cycle.
Jeff
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Has anyone ever tried to extend range by using capacitors in parallel
with the motor / battery pack to buffer peak amps ?
How would one calculate the required capacitance ?
How would one calculate the amount of range extended or would this be
only from real world testing ??
What else would be needed in the circuit besides the capacitor bank ?
Maxwell has a 110 pound 63 Farad 125 VDC capacitor for $ 4000, but is
something this large necessary for a 120 volt DC system with a
standard DC Series Motor and Curtis controller ?
Maxwell ultracap has a max operating voltage of 135 VDC with 142 VDC
surge capacity, so you could not hook up to a fully charged 120 volt
battery pack until after pulling out of the garage.
It also has max continuous current of only 150 amps with a 700 amp
max current capacity, DC series resistance of 17 milli ohms and 14
milli ohms at 100 Hz.
Menlo Park III,
Bill
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: At what cd (drag coef) and roof size for a van would the drag
of the vehicle be less than the electricity generating rate of pv's on the
roof?
> Danny Miller wrote:
> > Well keep in mind that the solar racers use rather "extreme"
> > construction. They are far from being practical vehicles in terms of
> > seating room, cargo capacity, durability, and safety.
>
> That's for sure! It's a bit unfortunate, in fact. The solar racers seem
> to be stuck in a rut, doing the same things over and over, rather than
> innovating. Do you realize it's been over 20 years since the GM Sunraycer?
>
> It would indeed be interesting if they changed the mission, and raised
> the bar. What would solar cars look like if they had to accomplish a
> "standard" 30-mile daily commute in normal traffic?
Hi EVerybody;
> -- Interesting point, Lee. Could they be "Hardened" up to survive real
world traffic?Then they may be of Freedom EV weight. not a bad thing? But of
what I have scene of solar cars is their freight train acceleration rate.
You would be run over by the idiot in a Hummer(Rymes with Bummer)He wouldn't
even SEE it, much less feel hitting it!You might be able to drive FLA's back
roads in a solar job, but in CT's snowstorms? Forgetaboutit!Yeah we actually
HAD snow the other day. It's GREAT! Only about 2 inches, with ice topping.
It is like concrete!Frozen, to a point you would need a rock drill to
remove, but you can drive on it without even leaving tire trax!Back a truck
of firewood over the lawn, without leaving a mark!It's 15 degreez,
now!Winter has cought up to us, for sure!
The Solar car tech; the super light construction? Yeah! Whynot? But ya
need to come in somewhere between Sunraycer and a Rabbit conversion. Yup,
The Sunrise and Freedom EV. Were working on that. Stay tuned.
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVErybody;
I'm gunna break in here on my own post. SORRY! This is too political, I
THOUGH I was sending to the "Yahell Group" Electric Cars for sale"That's a
no holds barred thing over there. MY bad! Respond to me OFF List if ya like.
I'll slip into my flame proof suit, now!
OK. Other good stuff; I just bougt a couple of bags of Cast battery
terminal lugs, Three Ought size opening. makes it easier to slip all the two
ought frizzies into the "cup" for soldering.I used up all my local battery
guyz supply, so I HAD to find a source. Googled up Del City in Milwaukee
Wis.and at only 1.65 a piece, HALF what I was paying locally. Check them
out. they have alota other wire goods, too.Probably have crimp-able stuff,
too?Ordered on line, had them in 4 daze!
I'm a happy camper, and thought you should know about them?
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone.
Last Thursday my City El suddenly let me down. The start of last week
I managed to squeeze 20 miles out of the batteries (Varta Semi
Tractions 12v 75AH C5) on both Monday and Tuesday but by Thursday the
car let me down at 8 miles.
I initially thought it was a brake failure and the front wheel was
sticking as it was a bit on the hot side but decided to check the
vehicle over anyway. Today being half term for the schools I have a
lighter load so took the morning off to check out the city el. There
was a loose nut on the Curtis which has now been tightened and the
car was fully charged. I did notice a slight descrepancy between the
12v batteries (12.9, 13.1 and 12.7)
Now I've got a suitably large socket wrench I can take the wheels
off and check the drums but to be honest the car has only done 1,700
miles so I really doubt a problem there.
I suspect the problem is the batteries themselves. I want to go to
Lithium Ion in the summer so want a set to keep me going until then.
Suggestions?
Thanks
Nikki.
DC [EMAIL
PROTECTED])¢Ë\¢{Z{~Û×^g¬±¨ ~æjÛ.r¬jvµ§!y×âæ¯qªÝ 3 ~æjÛbâ²Û¶Èì¹çn¢yriÇ ¦ÓË StÈ*.®,¶)à±Ø¬¦V²¶¬ë,j²¢êæj)i®+jh¬lzÛh±éÝ<°51LãKa©Ý籧cºËbDate: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:28:27 -0800
From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Looking for crimp dies for very small ring terminals
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
I notice mouser has a lot of expensive crimpers from Tyco in the 24=30 ga -
might any of these work?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: February 17, 2007 5:36 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Looking for crimp dies for very small ring terminals
I have a bunch of 26/24 ga non-insulated ring terminals, but I have no
bottoming die to crimp them with. I can get by using the 22/18ga crimp
notch on a pair of cheap crimp/cut/strip tools, but it lacks repeatability.
Does anyone know _definitively_ (please, no "this site / store has a whole
bunch of die types" -- I've searched the sites already) where I can get a
die set (ideal /paladin style) that will crimp ring terminals
this small? Alternatively, does anyone know of a die that's not for
uninsulated ring terminals, but will crimp them properly, or does anyone
have any suggestions on how to do reliable repeatable crimps?
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: EVLN(MIT's The Car 2.0 : stackable EVs)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:51:43 -0800
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original
What really cracked me up about this article was the shear creativity
expressed by the crew at MIT coming up with the name the City Car. Whod a
thunk it?
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "bruce parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:21 PM
Subject: EVLN(MIT's The Car 2.0 : stackable EVs)
> EVLN(MIT's The Car 2.0 : stackable EVs)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
> http://www.boston.com/cars/news/articles/2007/02/18/the_car_20/?p1=MEWell_Pos5
> THE BIG DRIVE The Car, 2.0
> By Robert Weisman, Globe Staff February 18, 2007
>
> Researchers at the MIT Media Lab envision a fleet of lightweight
> stackable electric cars that can help reduce congestion and urban
> energy waste.
>
> CAMBRIDGE -- Will the car of the future be foldable?
>
> That's the vision of a team of researchers at the Massachusetts
> Institute of Technology's Media Lab. With backing from General
> Motors Corp., they are building a prototype of a lightweight
> electric vehicle that can be cheaply mass-produced, rented by
> commuters under a shared-use business model, and folded and
> stacked like grocery carts at subway stations or other central
> sites.
>
> It's called the City Car, and the key to the concept lies in the
> design of its wheels. Dreamers have been reinventing the wheel
> since the days of cave dwellers. But the work underway in "the
> Cube," the Media Lab's basement studio, may be the most ambitious
> remake yet.
>
> The MIT team has transformed the lowly wheel into a sophisticated
> robotic drive system that will power the City Car. Embedded in
> each of its four wheels will be an electric motor, steering and
> braking mechanisms, suspension, and digital controls, all
> integrated into sealed units that can be snapped on and off.
>
> And under the hood . . . well, there won't be a hood on the City
> Car. Just an eggshell-shaped glass plate -- part roof, part
> windshield -- framing the modular cabin and stretching almost to
> the chassis.
>
> INTERACTIVE GRAPHIC: The City Car
> [ http://www.boston.com/cars/news/articles/2007/02/18/citycar ]
>
> "We're eliminating the internal combustion engine," said Media
> Lab research assistant Ryan Chin , studio coordinator for City
> Cars. He said the four electric motors will enable a more
> efficient use of power by also dispensing with the transmission
> and driveline. "We're removing as much hardware from the car as
> possible."
>
> In its place will be software that sets passenger preferences,
> changes the color of the cabin, controls the dashboard look and
> feel, and even directs drivers to parking spaces. "We think of
> the car as a big mobile computer with wheels on it," Chin said.
> "This car should have a lot of computational power. It should
> know where the potholes are."
>
> And like a computer, the car will start with the push of a
> button. Instead of a steering wheel, it has handlebars, akin to a
> scooter or motorbike. But the ride will be more like a
> traditional car, though smoother and quieter, Chin said. The body
> of the car will be made of lightweight composite material such as
> Kevlar or carbon fiber.
>
> Among the car's other design departures are its folding chassis,
> enabling it to be stacked at designated parking areas across an
> urban area, where it could also be recharged. It also has a
> zero-turn radius, courtesy of a wheel configuration that provides
> omnidirectional motion. For the City Car, the traditional U-turn
> will be replaced by an O-turn, ideal for fitting into tight
> spaces.
>
> The concept of the City Car was hatched by the Media Lab's Smart
> Cities group, as part of a strategy for reducing carbon
> emissions. The team is being led by William J. Mitchell ,
> professor of architecture and media arts and sciences.
> -
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
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>
>
>
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: Battery Woes
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:57:37 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Hi Nikki,
Your batteries are starting to drift apart, which will cause the "lowest" to
be empty before the others are, while during charging the "fullest" ones are
going up in voltage like crazy (I have seen up to 16V on a large 110Ah AGM
that was overcharged with only 10A) and the consequence is that even while
the charger will see the pack hit max voltage and shut off, the lowest
battery may be only 50% charged, so halfway your normal range you can
suddenly have an empty battery in the pack and reverse it, dropping you to a
walking speed and a hurt battery, so to speak.
My AGMs sit at a resting voltage between 12.1V (dead) and 13.2V (full), so I
distrust the 12.7V while the 12.9V one is not entirely full either.
Batteries that are well balanced should stay within 0.1 or even 0.05V.
To make sure all batteries are OK, you load them and check the voltage after
several seconds of heavy load.
This avoids a weak cell from giving 2V so the open circuit looks fine, but
when driving it immediately collapses.
I have seen several batteries that go from 12V to 10V or even 8V real fast,
they had one or two bad cells which had been reversed and as soon as they
were discharged the positive plate became a negative plate, so the cell was
delivering 0V (and in use it would get hot, probably because the original
negative plate was also reversed into a positive plate, so it became an
energy dissipator at -2V or more.
Easiest thing to do is to charge each battery separately so they all read
13.2V or thereabouts.
Check that each battery takes it charge current from the get-go.
If you hook up your charger and see the current slowly rise, then you can be
certain you have a bad cell in that battery, which is high resistant at low
voltage (and will pass current only after it has charged or discharged a
little)
Hope this helps,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of nikki
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:05 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Battery Woes
Hi everyone.
Last Thursday my City El suddenly let me down. The start of last week I
managed to squeeze 20 miles out of the batteries (Varta Semi Tractions 12v
75AH C5) on both Monday and Tuesday but by Thursday the car let me down at 8
miles.
I initially thought it was a brake failure and the front wheel was sticking
as it was a bit on the hot side but decided to check the vehicle over
anyway. Today being half term for the schools I have a lighter load so took
the morning off to check out the city el. There was a loose nut on the
Curtis which has now been tightened and the car was fully charged. I did
notice a slight descrepancy between the 12v batteries (12.9, 13.1 and 12.7)
Now I've got a suitably large socket wrench I can take the wheels off and
check the drums but to be honest the car has only done 1,700 miles so I
really doubt a problem there.
I suspect the problem is the batteries themselves. I want to go to Lithium
Ion in the summer so want a set to keep me going until then.
Suggestions?
Thanks
Nikki.
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: EV Paraglider
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 09:57:42 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
It may be in efficient at high speeds but the low speeds make up for the
inefficiency. It was bound to happen with the capability to make a car that
can go 300 miles per charge. This isn't the first electric to fly. A few
years ago a small single seat airplane was at Osh Kosh.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:15 AM
Subject: EV Paraglider
> This came in to the NEDRA Yahoo group by a guy named Bill. I thought many
of
> you would find this of interest. I sure did! Here is the forwarded
message:
>
>
> Hi again guys
>
>
> Thanks again for the responses....I ran across this...and I must say I am
> amazed....and I thought you guys would be interested as well....
>
> paragliders are not very efficient flying machines....the lift to drag
ratio
> is probably only about half that of your typical cessna or piper cub...
>
> And as we know, batteries arent exactly a light wieght way to store
> power...especially when compared to liquid fuels...
>
> And when it comes to flying things wieght is everything !
>
> But hey...the proof is in the pudding as they say...
>
> here is the article link.....the video link is down near the
bottom...kinda
> hiding under the bottom 3 pictures....video took awhile to load for me at
> least...
>
> but still I am amazed!
>
>
http://www.lightsportaircraft.ca/airventure-2006/electricpowered-poweredparaglider.html
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.412 / Virus Database: 268.18.1/691 - Release Date: 2/17/2007
>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:09:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Andrew Goodman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: EV conversion questions
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Thanks,
I would be VERY interested in finding information from
someone that has actually worked this car. Leo,
please tell me all you know! The configuration you
did, and the range you ended up with.
I (of course) have the book, and have read the book
"Convert It".
I am indeed looking at Lead-Acid. From the what I
have gleaned from my reading, most people recommend
starting with Pb, investing more money in a good setup
for the motor/controller/components, and then later,
when batteries need to be replaced, move up in battery
technology at that point.
So, this is my outline for the BWM:
As to the car:
It is a rear-wheel drive 1970 BMW, model 2002. The
stock engine was 100-120Hp, and the weight was about
2000 lbs. It has a front mounted engine, and the
existing drive train consists of a supported
drive-shaft connected to differential bolted to the
frame with independent rear suspension.
Configuration:
I am going with a direct-drive, three phase AC
configuration with a fixed gear reduction, such that
the max motor speed after reduction would be around
5000RPM.
Motor Specs:
The motor I am looking for would be a 50+HP three
phase, able to turn at least 5000RPM, and higher RPM
preferred, such that I could employ a reduction to
increase starting torque.
Controller:
The controller must supply the motor, enable
regenerative braking, and supply a 12V DC source,
along with some sort of gauge data. An integrated
charger would be preferable, but not necessary.
Battery:
As to the power, I am planning a pack of 24 of the
Optima yellow-top (D51), split 16/8 back/front. The
batteries store 41Ah, though have only a 5x9.3
footprint, and weigh only 26lbs each. Total DC input
voltage would then be 288V.
Would anyone voice comments on this plan?
Thanks,
Andy
--- Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Welcome to the list, Andrew.
> A friend of mine, Leo Galcher, in So. Cal., has
> done the 1970 Bimmer, and I think it was a 2002 as
> well. You'd be wise to talk with him as he actually
> transferred every component from one chassis to
> another. Apparently BMW had changed model years
> that
> year, which made for some awkward/unreliable
> components that were hard to find replacements for.
> Victor is a contributor to the list. Lots of
> people like his components, though AC is slightly
> more
> expensive both in the controller, and also in the
> batteries needed to get the voltage to where your
> performance will be decent, and also for the battery
> management system, assuming you'd be using AGM lead
> acid technology.
> Mike Brown basically wrote the bible "Convert It"
> that gets most of us started in this venture. He
> supports his products well.
> EV Parts is another supplier, but I don't think
> that they stock AC at this point, if that's your
> thing.
> Best to you,
>
> --- Andrew Goodman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am newbe to your list.
> >
> > I have been considering doing a EV conversion,
> using
> > a
> > 1970 BMW 2002, a neat little car that I own.
> >
> > I am looking at a direct drive AC conversions, and
> > it
> > seems the only suppliers of (affordable) motors
> and
> > controllers out there are MetricMind
> > http://www.metricmind.com/ and ElectroAutomotive
> > http://www.electroauto.com/index.html.
> >
> > Has anyone out there done an AC conversion?
> >
> > With parts from these places?
> >
> > Has anyone dealt with these companies?
> >
> > Are there other suppliers that I should look into?
> >
> > Thanks in advance for the advice.
> > Andy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> > It's here! Your new message!
> > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
> >
> http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/
> >
> >
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch
> too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came
> out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas
> for your kids?
>
>
>
>
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> Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: 450 HP in 60 little Orange Boxes!
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:26:24 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> Hello to All,
>
> We have a new slogan at Plasma Boy Racing....11's in 07!
>
> I'm happy to report that Dick Brown (www.aerobatteries.com) pulled
> through again for us this year and working with our sponsor Enersys, our
> new 40% more powerful batteries have arrived!
I know you are excited about your new power source but wouldn't the proposed
Firefly, Nanosafe and other chemestries be EVen more powerful. Are you
looking over the hill yet or do you want to keep your cards close to your
chest for now? Lawrence Rhodes Wouldn't a Firefly sponsorship be
amazing!!!!!
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: EV conversion questions
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 10:28:47 -0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
Hi Andrew,
BMW is a sturdy little car, so a somewhat popular conversion candidate, also
for its sporty image and against the price of components which can be a
problem. Good thing is that the rally package already has stiff springs, so
you don't even need to modify the suspension of one of those, or swap it
from a car that has it.
I know of several BMW conversions and actually bought a 325i with blown
motor, but changed plans when I was able to replace the head gasket and it
ran good, while I could buy an existing EV.
Anyway - all conversions I know are DC, but there should be no issue with
doing an AC conversion.
Since many BMW are manual transmission, there is not really a need to do a
direct drive in those, so I wonder why you like to do the AC iso DC
conversion.
The evalbum lists several BMW conversions and I received the plans of one of
them and I saw Micheal Bearden's WATTABMR from up close (I considered to buy
it).
Most follow the Convert It! book pretty closely, with some batteries under
the hood and the remaining in the trunk, unless you are up to the task of
cutting and welding boxes that sink through the trunk floor, where the spare
tire used to be, though that raises the bar and you better have a driveable
EV first, then improve on it.
Sounds like a fun project!
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andrew Goodman
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:19 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: EV conversion questions
Hello,
I am newbe to your list.
I have been considering doing a EV conversion, using a 1970 BMW 2002, a neat
little car that I own.
I am looking at a direct drive AC conversions, and it seems the only
suppliers of (affordable) motors and controllers out there are MetricMind
http://www.metricmind.com/ and ElectroAutomotive
http://www.electroauto.com/index.html.
Has anyone out there done an AC conversion?
With parts from these places?
Has anyone dealt with these companies?
Are there other suppliers that I should look into?
Thanks in advance for the advice.
Andy
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