EV Digest 6453
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Where to get Exide Orbitals
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Stop dissing Zivans, was RE: Battery charger recommendation
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Living in EV's, Re: EV digest 6436
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Was: charger/battery, now electrolyte levels?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery load tester
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: "New" motors for the KillaCycle - 2 for sale
by "Shawn Waggoner, FLEAA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Battery load tester
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Charging problems
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) prius battery pack for sale on ebay
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Charging problems
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Cheap please (T-105 Sitcker Shock)
by Jay Paroline <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Cheap please (T-105 Sitcker Shock)
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: prius battery pack for sale on ebay
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
Although the retail was around $165, I asked the manager at Checker Auto, a
chain here in Colorado, if he would match an Internet price of $105 for 16
and he did. None of the Optima stores would budge from retail...
BB
>From: Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 15:03:36 -0800 (PST)
>
>The only place I found them was NAPA and they cost more than Optima Yellow
>Tops. I thought you could get them at Sams, but they weren't there.
>Optima Yellow at Sams are about $163. Am I missing something?
>
> I tried other parts store -- no luck.
>
> Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
With all due respect for your EV history contributions and list
administrator work, I'm going to call you out to the playground after
school regarding your comments about Zivan chargers! As I said in a post
back in 2005 (below), the K models had problems, but the NG models are rock
solid. They have a three stage algorithm that doesn't beat the life out of
the batteries, or at least not the floodies. Are you thinking of the early
K models of the Zivan, or the model that was installed in the Sparrows with
AGM's and no regulators? My NG3 is still working on a daily basis since
'99...
BB
>From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 02:49:40 -0500
>
>On 16 Feb 2007 at 22:41, David Hrivnak wrote:
>
>> Do you mind me asking what advantages did you see in
>> the Delta-Q over the Zivan chargers?
>
>I'm not Steve, but I'm going to take a guess : reliability and usability.
>Zivan chargers are infamous for frequent failures. Their charge algorithms
>are also infamous for beating the life out of batteries.
>
>A pity really as Zivans are very reasonably priced, lightweight, isolated
>switchmode chargers.
>
>If only Zivan had fitted higher quality components, and made it possible for
>users to tweak the charge control themselves. Of course then the price
>would have been higher.
>
>Delta-Q chargers are reportedly of higher quality, though I think I recall
>reading that they're produced by contract assembly plants in China.
>
<snippage>
>Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2005 17:55:29 -0700
>From: "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Russco vs Zivan vs PFC
>
>David and All,
>As a happy Zivan owner, I wanted to comment on this post. As far as
>reliability issues, I'm thinking the K models had some issues, and I
>believe it was because they were designed for 220 (250?) volt European
>juice, so the higher input current on the 120V input models would kill
>them. I've been charging floodies with a 120V NG3 model since November of
>1999 (has it really been that long?!), and knock on wood it's still
>humping in the amps. I would never mount it under the hood, and had it
>behind the seats in the RX-7, and likewise in the truck were it has been
>living for about 30k miles now. Yes, it is fine for floodies with it's
>three stage algorithm, but will murder AGMs without regs. And if you need
>to change pack voltages to something similar to the original
>configuration, you can get an EPROM from the distributor and change some
>dip switches, as I recall, without having to send it off. What will I
>replace it with, or purchase in the future for another buggy?...
>BB
>
>
>>From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:27:51 -0400
>>
>>On 22 Aug 2005 at 16:48, Cwarman wrote:
>>
>>> Im wondering if on a limited budget if this is an area that i could
>>> scrimp just a tad and go with a Russco or Zivan for $500-$700 cheaper than
>>> the cheapest PFC ?
>>
>>WARNING: The following is NOT an endorsement nor is it based on personal
>>experience, but rather on hearsay and personal use by friends. My own EV
>>chargers, except for the homemade ones, have carried such names as
>>Vanguard, Lester, Cybortronics, K&W, Solectria, and Brusa.
>>
>>So take it for what it's worth. <g>
>>
>>Believe it or not, the most "feature-y" charger you name is probably the
>>Zivan.
>> It is 100% isolated and has microprocessor control with temperature
>>compensation (optional sender required) and various charge profiles for
>>different chemistries.
>>
>>Ah, but the devil is in the details. The Zivan is a rather cheaply made
>>charger
>>and has demonstrated some reliability problems. Obtaining support can also
>>be a challenge. Its AGM algorithms reportely murder AGMs by severely
>>overcharging them. If you want to change pack voltage or battery type, you
>>have to send it back to the distributor for modification, a pain for
>>those folks
>>who like to experiment. It is not a true PFC charger, though there are much
>>worse (the old K&W BC-20s come to mind ;-). Zivans are apparently better
>>for flooded batteries than for AGMs.
>>
>>Bottom line: Zivan chargers offer a lot for the money, if you're prepared
>>to deal
>>with their limitations.
><snipage>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Crystal,
I know from reading your posts that you might be leaning towards
bio-diesel, but if you want to go down the EV road, I would go with what
works. As someone that has a light-duty pickup that is use to pull a pop-up
camper trailer, among other trailers, I would skip the RV route and solar
panels. Convert a standard cab long-bed light-duty pickup with 24 T-145
floodies that would give you 60-70 miles per charge and the lowest cost
(mine was $8500). Mount the batteries below a tilt bed to keep the CG down
low, blah blah, blah. You don't want to pull a trailer because having two
more tires of contact patch would be a real drag, so how about a camper
shell with a receiver hitch and hitch carrier? Or a pop-up camper shell?
Use a battery charger that accepts 120 (15 amps) or 240 (50 amp) volt
inputs (or multiple chargers like I use), and plan on charging at camp
grounds or opportunity charging along the way. I wouldn't worry about coal
powered juice, and I would also think about a small genny just in case you
can't get juice at a planned camp site, etc.
Suck Amps (renewable if you can, or coal if you have to!)
BB
>From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 06:11:09 -0500
>
> Hi Crystal and All,
>
> I forgot about the VW chassis as a starting
<snippage>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Recap: Brand new 165Ah floodies; new 1200A Raptor.
After pulling some kWh, suddenly the voltage will sag
horribly (like down to 90V or so). Never happens
after a full charge.
I've noticed that as they complete their charge,
several batteries have electrolyte _up into the filler
necks_! After 6 years with EVs, I understand that
electrolyte levels rise as the dischg. process
reverses, etc., water/PbSO4 is converted back to lead
+ sulfuric acid etc. etc. But is this likely the
reason for my sudden voltage drops? My guess is that
the reason the problem stops after the car sits for
awhile is that the electrolyte mixes so the batteries
recover.
Solution, charge the piss out of the batteries, so
that I lose some water and concentrate the
electrolyte, adding water to the other ones as
necessary.
I'm gathering that this is fairly common, and that
I've gotten lucky that some employee at the battery
manuf. co. doesn't really give much of a rip if he
puts an extra 100 ml of electrolyte in a cell or two
in my previous two sets?
Okay, did I figure this latest mystery out, or does
that explanation still not work?
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVs are always more expensive and less convenient than gasoline, that is why
the world uses gasoline, even in Europe with gasoline nearly twice as
expensive as in the US. Gasoline replaced electricity for vehicles in the
1910s. If the US really wanted energy independence, they would tax imported
crude sufficiently (moving up incrementally over time) to make gasoline
around $7 - $8/gal, then alternatives like EVs would have a chance to take
market share. But that would be the kiss of death for any politician.
Civilization is based on access to power and our standard of living depends
on crude at market prices.
We drive EVs for other reasons - mine is to not to support Venezuela, Saudi
Arabia, Iran, etc and their anti-US actions and sentiments. I have cut my
gasoline purchases by 2/3, the same as the percent of imported oil used in
the US.
If you are interested in this to save money, you better take another look at
it.
JLC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 5:26 PM
Subject: RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
> Hi Mark,
>
> I think you have the wrong perspective, but let me make another point
first:
>
> Nobody said that an EV is going to be much cheaper in the short run.
> I am concerned about the actual cost of pollution (which is not
represented
> at the pump today, as the price is paid by the people suffering from
Asthma
> and other problems, so it is a hidden cost which may come back to bite us)
> and running my EV keeps the majority of pollution out of my neighborhood,
so
> I am paying for piece of mind, which I value.
>
> Now about perspective: I don't see batteries as "fuel cost", but more as a
> maintenance item.
> The reduced maintenance cost on my car, which has been to the dealer since
> <NEVER>, at a cost of <zero> is more or less paying for the cost of the
> batteries. My pack did cost me about $2200 for my S10
> Note that the numbers from the AAA are that average US vehicle operational
> cost *without* fuel cost is $0.50 per mile, including everything else
> related to the car.
> Now part of that we still see - insurance, new tires, parking fee and so
on,
> but having about $4000 for a car that does 8000 miles per year will easily
> pay for its batteries....
>
> The fuel cost is then only the electricity, which can occasionally be
beaten
> by the best-performing Hybrids when comparing the mileage and price at the
> pump ($2.679 is the lowest I see around here) but my electric S10 wins
hands
> down from any other pickup truck.
>
> Since the price of raw lead has gone up steeply recently, batteries have
> seen 2 or 3 price increases in the past year.
>
> Let me know if you have a different perspective ;-)
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mark Brueggemann
> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 2:13 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: T-105 Sitcker Shock
>
> I was just quoted $85ea plus tax for a set of T-105's.
> This is quite a jump from the last time I bought them.
> At these prices, freight shipping from higher volume distribution points
> starts to look attractive.
> Is this about the going rate for T-105's now or am I getting hosed? This
> may be the end of my EV career, this works out to the equivalent of $3.50
> gal gas before the cost of electricity. I like my EV but I can run a
luxury
> car cheaper than this.
>
> Mark Brueggemann
> Albuquerque, NM
> S-10 EV
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm kinda rusty at this but I'll give it a shot:
--- John O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've seen people post numerous times about the coat hanger in water
> as a load and I have to ask; Is there anything else involved with
> this method other than
> 1 bucket of water and
> 1 coat hanger with wires connecting it to battery + and - ?
A voltmeter to monitor the discharge, and a shunt, at least
initially, to know what current you're actually drawing.
> Haw do you make the final connection without excessive sparking?
Coat hanger wire stays under water at all times, connect one
batt terminal first, then with a quick motion connect the other.
Friction fit is fine. I always used a stopwatch and started it
with the 2nd post connection, counted the minutes until 10.5V,
and the battery merit was the number of minutes it took to get
there. I actually trimmed my steel wire for 75A at 6.0V, and
in general this averages to 75A between 6.25 and 5.75V.
> What is the max voltage you can do this with in relative safety?
Power would the the safety thing, I would think. One 6V flooded
will heat a 5gal bucket fairly warm, so if you're testing a big
pack you will have to keep a fresh supply of cool water to the
load wire. Common sense voltage safety limits you to 48V.
Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Last fall Jim Husted took 2 ADC 6.7" Tropica motors and re-worked them for
me for a drag bike I was going to build that was to have a dual-motor setup.
He Kevlar banded the comms, advanced them, moved the temp sensor to the
brush holder and added solid copper brush leads, and more - the same mods he
has since done to Bill's Killacycle motors. These motors are pure works of
art. To echo the words of John, Bill and others, Jim is THE man when it
comes to motors.
Unfortunately, for several reasons, the bike project is not going to be. I
am selling the bike frame and parts and after talking with Jim tonight, I
have listed the motors on eBay for sale. There are lots of pictures and
details of the motors on the listing. If anyone is interested or has any
questions please let me know.
The listings are:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230095715956
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230095716902
Thanks,
Shawn Waggoner
561-543-9223
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Instead of the coat hanger in a bucket of water, I used a copper wire that I
had a spool of (about 200 ft) and
about 1/16 or 3/32 in diameter, it was European "installation wire" for
in-conduit 16A house intallation (conduits in Europe are mainly PVC and 3 or
more separate wires are pulled through them, not much Romex or alike can be
used as most walls are concrete or brick, so you can pour concrete after
placing the (empty) conduits where you want them, or cut a trench in later,
to bury the PVC pipe.)
Anyway - I found that if I stringed the wire in 2 parallel halves and hung
it around my garage on nails, I could feed 12V for a long time without
overheating it and each would take almost 40A for a total between 75 and
80A, dependent on voltage. This allowed me to test higher voltage if
necessary by not parallel but series connection,
up to 48V and 75A but that only for a short period, because the wire would
overheat (now carrying 75A iso 40A each leg, because they are now in series
and carry the full current AND double voltage => 4x larger power!)
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Brueggemann
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 8:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery load tester
I'm kinda rusty at this but I'll give it a shot:
--- John O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've seen people post numerous times about the coat hanger in water as
> a load and I have to ask; Is there anything else involved with this
> method other than
> 1 bucket of water and
> 1 coat hanger with wires connecting it to battery + and - ?
A voltmeter to monitor the discharge, and a shunt, at least initially, to
know what current you're actually drawing.
> Haw do you make the final connection without excessive sparking?
Coat hanger wire stays under water at all times, connect one batt terminal
first, then with a quick motion connect the other.
Friction fit is fine. I always used a stopwatch and started it with the 2nd
post connection, counted the minutes until 10.5V, and the battery merit was
the number of minutes it took to get there. I actually trimmed my steel
wire for 75A at 6.0V, and in general this averages to 75A between 6.25 and
5.75V.
> What is the max voltage you can do this with in relative safety?
Power would the the safety thing, I would think. One 6V flooded will heat a
5gal bucket fairly warm, so if you're testing a big pack you will have to
keep a fresh supply of cool water to the load wire. Common sense voltage
safety limits you to 48V.
Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 144V (24 US145s) truck and am charging
with a PFC 20 charger. Things were good for the first
year(~6000 miles). At about 14 months I had a cell go
bad. I replaced it with a new battery and tried to get
back to normal. The problem is the charger stopped
shutting off. I've reduced the final voltage to 173V
which is 2.4V per cell. At this setting the charger
usually shuts down if I'm charging at a high enough
current. If I try to charge at say 15 amps, the
voltage will rise to the 173V set point and the limit
light illuminates and the timer light starts blinking
and the current will start dropping. Unfortunately the
the voltage starts to drop as well and the limit light
goes out and the current goes up, it will stabilize at
about 12 or 13 amps and charge forever if I let it. If
I start the charge at 20 to 25 amps it will taper to
15 amps and finish OK. Do I have the voltage set to
high? It never acted like this before.
I need to keep a close eye on things when
charging now, once when I set it to 25 amps, it
tapered to 15 amps and came out of the limit and over
charged the crap out of my pack. The truck had the
best performance I've seen, but I hate to think about
what I'm did to my pack.
How do I determine the correct finish voltage and
get back to a point of harmony with my truck?
Thanks for the feed back.
TiM
____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/04-05-06-Prius-hybrid-battery-pack-voltage-2004-2006_W0QQitemZ280085849580QQihZ018QQcategoryZ33574QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
This is interesting, way cheaper than retail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim,
When batteries age, you need to change the charge profile to compensate.
Also temp correction is needed if you charge in a place where it can change.
ANY charger needs a shutoff on timeout.
It can easily be added in the form of an (enclosed) timer that you can set
for automatic shutoff after a certain nr of hours and which plugs in between
the charger cord and wall socket.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of TiM M
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Charging problems
I have a 144V (24 US145s) truck and am charging with a PFC 20 charger.
Things were good for the first year(~6000 miles). At about 14 months I had a
cell go bad. I replaced it with a new battery and tried to get back to
normal. The problem is the charger stopped shutting off. I've reduced the
final voltage to 173V which is 2.4V per cell. At this setting the charger
usually shuts down if I'm charging at a high enough current. If I try to
charge at say 15 amps, the voltage will rise to the 173V set point and the
limit light illuminates and the timer light starts blinking and the current
will start dropping. Unfortunately the the voltage starts to drop as well
and the limit light goes out and the current goes up, it will stabilize at
about 12 or 13 amps and charge forever if I let it. If I start the charge at
20 to 25 amps it will taper to
15 amps and finish OK. Do I have the voltage set to high? It never acted
like this before.
I need to keep a close eye on things when charging now, once when I set
it to 25 amps, it tapered to 15 amps and came out of the limit and over
charged the crap out of my pack. The truck had the best performance I've
seen, but I hate to think about what I'm did to my pack.
How do I determine the correct finish voltage and get back to a point
of harmony with my truck?
Thanks for the feed back.
TiM
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000
destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce,
I agree with some of what you have to say here, but there are some
considerations you may be missing which make it easier look down on
ICE drivers.
I still drive an ICE. My long term goal is to get into an RV, but
sticker shock is the main factor keeping me back. I've done the math,
and even if the cost of electricity is free and the price of gas
doubles, I can't drive an EV for less than my ICE, especially because
of the cost of batteries. Again, I still want an EV, but it is far
less affordable than an ICE.
How is that, considering the cost of gas an maintenance and
overhauls, etc? I currently buy older cars and drive them until they
won't run anymore. Right now I'm driving around an '89 Pontiac 6000
station wagon (automatic, or I would be considering having it
converted), getting close to 200,000 miles on it. I got it for $700
and aside from replacing dry rotted tires and the occasional oil
change I do myself (less often than recommended, but at this point
changing the oil feels like polishing the deck chairs on the
titanic), my maintenance costs have been nil. Sure, it's falling
apart and is ugly, but it gets me to work every day and I expect to
get at least another 6 months out of it at which point I can buy
another beater for around the same price and keep the cycle going.
I agree if you compare the price of an EV to that of a new vehicle,
an EV makes economical sense even with the cost of batteries because
of fuel costs and all the stupid maintenance you have to do on a
newer ICE car to keep the warranty up and then later to keep it
running at its best. On the other hand, a new ICE vehicle comes with
a warranty, something an EV conversion does not.
There are plenty of reasons to drive an EV (the environment and
energy independence being the main ones), but I don't think that it's
more economical for everyone.
Jay
P.S. While EVs don't have ICE fires, they do have battery fires.
At 08:08 PM 2/21/2007, you wrote:
Mark,
When I talk to inquiring people at EV shows (or EVents), I have
learned to determine what their priorities are to help them
get the EV fact they are after.
Some have incorrect opinions/facts about EVs. They think
since it is not a 'real car' it must be cheap (golf carts are
cheap right?!?). If it is a vehicle, it going to cost (no free
lunch).
For some, they view life while standing in their wallet: short
term expenditures are very much on their minds. "How much
does this cost?", "How much is that costing me?" is what they say
to me. But they do not take the time to 'do the math' (total
calculations) to account for 'all the costs' before deciding,
"Electrics are too expensive!"
Those types are familiar-with and quite comfortable purchasing
and maintaining a self-destructive ICE vehicle, and to hell
with the other guy (and their children's lungs).
In my case, I am not in a position of high income as I was in the
past. The increase in SOPb4 wet cell battery costs will hit me
too. But I know by driving an EV I save money in the form of:
-time (no waiting to get gas or waiting for ICE repairs, etc.)
-fees (smogging, etc.)
-maintenance (no tune ups, repairs, etc.)
-fuel (Electricity is cheap, free public EV charging, etc.)
-and more (HOV lane access, no ICE fires, etc.)
The EV community has had an exclusive-club going for some time
now. As 'EVangel' efforts continue to put more EVs on the road,
and EV interest grows, some costs are going to increase to
match the costs of everything else that is in a constant state
of going up.
The cost of replacing the pack is my largest expenditure. I
mentally equate the cost of two SOPb4 pack swap outs vs the cost
of an ICE overhaul (and what every else the shop finds that
needs fixing).
I can change out my pack easily:
-the new pack is dropped off at my home
-and the old pack is picked up afterward.
I can not do the same with an ICE overhaul:
-I do not have the space, tools, experience, and it is not
allowed where I live.
I have long given up trying to get Trojan Battery to give a
better deal on my pack cost. I have found my local US Battery
dealer gives the best-bang-for-the-buck.
Perhaps you should look at your 'T-105 equivalent' battery
options and include the cost of battery delivery & dead-core
pickup.
US Battery dealers can be found at
http://www.usbattery.com/pages/usbdealers.htm
Exide dealers can be found at
http://www.exide.com/wheretobuy/wheretobuy.asp
If cost of pack replacement does become more than you can
afford, please consider selling your EV when it has at least
a year's life left in the pack. It will sell better, and
you will get a better price for it. There are plenty of EV
interested buyers out there now that fuel is closer to its
true cost (see Cor's POST on Eco costs, etc.).
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think you have the wrong perspective,
Viewed from your perspective...
> Nobody said that an EV is going to be much cheaper in the
> short run.
Or the long run.
> I am concerned about the actual cost of pollution
I am not, and the masses don't either. I don't believe EV's
are, as a whole, less polluting than any other vehicle.
There's more to consider than just the generation/conversion
of energy.
> the price is paid by the people suffering from Asthma
> and other problems, so it is a hidden cost
I pay for cigarette smoker's cancer treatments too, so ultimately
the have's pay more than the have-not's. You can't put a number
on that. Not all asthma is caused by gasoline cars. Some will
say part of global warming is caused from methane generated by
McDonald's beef cows. Using your logic, Big Macs and Happy Meals
cause global warming. Does it cancel out if I go through
the drive-through in my EV?
> and running my EV keeps the majority of pollution out of my
> neighborhood,
It has a magic air shield? I don't understand. My neighbor's
Bonneville generates the same CO/CO2 whether I drive my EV or
ICE. Did you used to drive something much more polluting that
now your EV has lowered your neighborhoods' pollution level?
> I am paying for piece of mind, which I value.
That's intangible. I slept well at night before and after I
built my EV.
> I don't see batteries as "fuel cost", but more as a
> maintenance item.
Agreed, but they have a fairly predictable, finite life, like
tires. Technically it's not fuel, but their life and cost per
mile are factors to be considered in the overall operating cost.
If you are ingoring that, you are ignoring reality. No matter
what column you put it in, the cost falls to the bottom line.
> The reduced maintenance cost on my car, which has been to the
> dealer since <NEVER>, at a cost of <zero> is more or less
> paying for the cost of the batteries.
I've seen this point brought up over the years and I still don't
get it. My wife and I bought a gasser family car not long after
I finished my EV. It has been to the dealer <NEVER> as well.
Over 100K miles and so far a set of brakes, tires, an SLI and
oil changes. That's 2x the miles than I have on my EV. Not
sure what kind of cars everyone's driving that needs thousands
of dollars of repairs every few years. I've never spent that
much on repairs for all the ICE's I've owned my entire life.
> Note that the numbers from the AAA are that average US vehicle
> operational cost
Problem with that cost per mile figure is it makes a lot of
assumptions as to vehicle acquisition costs, depreciation and
regular replacement. It's also not factoring in the ultimate
replacement of the EV chassis, which isn't something you can
just go out and buy. It's not an apples-apples comparison.
My ICE vehicle costs come nowhere near that figure, and I have
20+ years of accumulated data on all of them.
> The fuel cost is then only the electricity,
But you're hiding your head in the sand if you don't consider
all of the operating costs. The fact that it's more 'green'
than gasoline does have intangible benefits that need to be
considered, but you can't look at that alone. The electricity
is just a difference in potential without the machinery and
storage to put it to work. That has real costs.
> Since the price of raw lead has gone up steeply recently,
> batteries have seen 2 or 3 price increases in the past year.
I haven't been following battery news, and wasn't aware of
that. That explains it.
> Let me know if you have a different perspective ;-)
I have an EV for less than altruistic reasons. It was a fun
project, I learned a lot doing it and at this point I think
my construction methods have proven themselves over time and
miles. When I first built it at ~$1.25/gal I anticipated a break
even operating point of $1.42 a gallon, given battery prices
of the day and a clearly overoptimistic battery life estimation.
Now that I've had a few packs through it and understand some
of the limitations of flooded lead acid, that break even
point is about double the initial estimate, and as of today,
about 2.5 times, about $3.50/gal equivalent. I had a controller
fail early on, so that really put a whammy on cost/mile, but
I'm not even factoring that in right now. Then there's subtle
things like tires and brakes that only last half as long, the
chassis gets the shit beaten out of it from all the extra weight,
requiring twice as often suspension repairs, and minor electrical
maintenance like terminal upkeep, watering and other random
issues. So really, it's still like owning a gas car, just that
you work on different things for different reasons. Now, in the
grand scheme of things, the overall cost of ownership is still
way cheaper than many gas vehicles out there, and because I need
a pickup truck, the acquisition cost of a replacement ICE
equivalent keeps the EV as a contender. But this EV is not an
inexpensive vehicle to operate. For those more concerned about
the environment, doing the "right thing", energy independance,
etc then this additional cost might be worth it, but only in
their own mind. I understand a lot of that, but I also
understand the economic side of it, and I don't believe battery
EV's are the answer, at least not today. I think it's a bit
hypocritical to evangelize a mode of transportation that hasn't
proven itself to be practical. If they were, you could buy one.
To me, it's a shiny box I get into and go to work, take to the
grocery store, haul trash to the dump, etc, just like millions
of other people in their shiny boxes, irrespective of motive
force. If you think you're going to change political and
economic forces on a national and global level by driving an
EV and sending more than your fair share of lead to the recycler,
you're working it from the wrong end. I have not seen how EV's
solve some of the more fundamental issues surrounding private
vehicle ownership like urban sprawl, land consumed my ever
expanding roads, and the byproducts of EV production and disposal.
I understand that while underway they are less polluting, but
they still need tires, have lots of plastic parts, involve the
smelting of steel and aluminum, plus a fair share of
semiconductors and their inherent byproducts of production and
disposal. Not to mention the *millions and millions* of spent
batteries to be dealt with, irrespective of chemistry. This
all costs time, energy (real and personal) and material
resources, however inert they may or may not be.
EV's can be fun and cool, but in terms of being a solution
to the national/global problems at hand, they ain't it.
A step towards a better solution perhaps, but BEV's
couldn't make it 30 years ago, and they won't today. It's
not like I just hopped in here on EVDL to beat up on EV's,
I've been at this game a while and have experienced pretty
much everything associated with them. I started off
objectively and I think I still am. I hope you see this not
as an effort to pee in your wheaties but an honest observation
from someone that's been there, done it, and isn't convinced.
Meanwhile, I guess I'll plan on getting another pack, beats
walking to work or an outright vehicle replacement.
Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
50K EV miles since 1997
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Bruce;
> When I talk to inquiring people at EV shows (or EVents),
Been to my share of those too, to be sure.
> If it is a vehicle, it going to cost (no free lunch).
All cars run on money. No new news there.
> view life while standing in their wallet: short
> term expenditures are very much on their minds.
I look long term. Acqusition, operating cost, insurance,
and to some extent, the intangible of fun, convenience
and personal enjoyment.
> take the time to 'do the math' (total calculations)
> to account for 'all the costs' before deciding,
> "Electrics are too expensive!"
Who gets to decide what "all the costs" entail?
> familiar-with and quite comfortable purchasing
> and maintaining a self-destructive ICE vehicle,
Like me. I've had excellent and cost-effective service
from all the ICE vehicles I've owned. Every generation
gets better and better in terms of emissions, reliability,
operating cost and overall cost of ownership.
> to hell with the other guy (and their children's lungs).
I'm insulted by that comment. My lungs are just as much
at risk, and just as important to me as everyone else's.
I've had about enough "for the children" BS.
> I know by driving an EV I save money in the form of:
-time (no waiting to get gas or waiting for ICE repairs, etc.)
-fees (smogging, etc.)
-maintenance (no tune ups, repairs, etc.)
-fuel (Electricity is cheap, free public EV charging, etc.)
-and more (HOV lane access, no ICE fires, etc.)
Cor van de Water brought that stuff up too. Not sure what
kind of ICE's you've owned, but the three minutes it takes
to fill a tank once a week is comparable to the dozen or
more times I have to connect and set a charger, smog fees
are $20 every two years and take 10 minutes, and ICE's today
can easily go 100K miles without touching a single thing
under the hood, other than oil changes. As I mentioned
to Cor, you still work on an EV, it's just different stuff.
Granted, the ICE is production and the EV is homebuilt,
so there's something to be said for a production EV's
potential service intervals. Since there are no production
EV's available, there's really no way to gauge that
part of the operating cost. But until it matches or exceeds
an ICE, the ICE wins. It sure isn't there with a conversion.
> I mentally equate the cost of two SOPb4 pack swap outs
> vs the cost of an ICE overhaul (and what every else the
> shop finds that needs fixing).
Now, think about that a second. Let's say that you're at
the optimistic end of the lifespan potential of a pack
and get 20K out of it. Let's pad it a little to the
unrealistic side and say 25K. Who overhauls an ICE at
25K? At your intervals I'd have a new ICE *and* transmission
every 50K. That math doesn't make sense to me. Just because
you can do it yourself doesn't justify doing it 5 or 10
times more than necessary.
> I have long given up trying to get Trojan Battery to give a
> better deal on my pack cost.
You get a little break from the dealers @24, but there's
little reason for them to give EV'ers a bigger break. I
suspect there's not a lot of margin in flooded lead acid
batteries.
> I have found my local US Battery dealer gives the
> best-bang-for-the-buck.
I tried USB's once, and discovered the hard way they require
a different charge algorithm than the T-105's, and they
were junk in a year. Since chargers cost as much as
battery packs, I would never recover the cost using USB's
vs Trojan's with price delta alone between them. If I had a
more flexible charger it might be worth it, but I'm stuck
with what I have.
> Perhaps you should look at your 'T-105 equivalent' battery
> options and include the cost of battery delivery & dead-core
> pickup.
That would be an expensive experiment if I can't charge them
correctly, being different than Trojans. I've been burned on
that once and I don't feellike buying a $1500+ charger to save
a couple hundred on a pack. The truck will never last long
enough to go through enough packs to return the cost.
And yes, I'm cost sensitive. Being "green" is nice, but I
don't believe EV's are all that green and I have a mortgage
to pay and I like to eat. It comes down to that. So I will
join the millions of others in hell for exploiting the
environment and using more than my fair share of resources.
I didn't ask for the status quo, and I have no power to
change it, so I will do my best to live within it.
> please consider selling your EV when it has at least
> a year's life left in the pack.
They're toast today. Have been declining for the past
few months. Got the rude awakening this morning when
I called the battery dealer. Otherwise I've been fat
dumb and happy plugging and driving for the past few
years.
> It will sell better, and you will get a better price for it.
Yeah, you always seem to see EV's for sale, "needs new pack",
don't you? In terms of overall expense, at this point it
makes sense to buy a pack at least one more time. That'll
buy me time to seek out a suitable replacment, after that
it can just be my full time nerd toy and experiment platform.
The chassis getting up there in miles, and will need a frame
up rebuild to have any confidence in it (getting close to
200K). Not an EV problem, but a factor in reliability and
to some extent, safety. Certainly as a used EV it would
need a lot of chassis work to put it back in the ring for
another 200K round. At least here in NM the sheet metal
doesn't rot out.
> There are plenty of EV interested buyers out there now that
> fuel is closer to its true cost (see Cor's POST on Eco costs,
> etc.).
Funny, I was an EV interested buyer at first and now that I've
owned one I probably wouldn't do it over again, and certainly
don't recommend it to anyone. But it's been an interesting
journey, and a great education. It's given me a unique
perspective on a lot of different subjects and an awareness
most probably don't have.
Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
50K EV miles since 1997
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most people buy the 01-03 Prius packs because they have several more modules
(273V iso 200V) than 04-07 Prius and they are much cheaper as there are many
more available (at least when I was scouting for them) so on average the
price was below $500.
I know two fellow EV's who both collected at least 10 packs for a
conversion.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tony Hwang
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: prius battery pack for sale on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/04-05-06-Prius-hybrid-battery-pack-voltage-20
04-2006_W0QQitemZ280085849580QQihZ018QQcategoryZ33574QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
This is interesting, way cheaper than retail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark,
Can I say that you sound slightly negative?
Of course flooded batteries need maintenance. I hope you knew that when you
converted your S10 10 years ago.
You may call yourself lucky that you have had such good service from all
your ICE cars, not many people have so much luck.
Indeed, I bought a reasonable cheap car, it could run on LPG so that was a
benefit until I found out a few months later that it had engine troubles,
probably already diagnosed by the person from whom I bought it, but hard to
prove (and I had a mechanic check the car over, but he did not find it, so I
thought it was OK when I bought it).
I have had a lot of other issues with several ICE cars (and a lot of luck
with some other) so today I am very happy with my second car - a Toyota
Prius. But I do know that when it fails in anything connected to the engine
or transaxle, the dealer will write a 4-figure bill just to start working on
it, not even including parts.
The reason I mentioned Asthma, is because I do have a daughter and she does
suffer because of the pollution.
Personally I am much more bothered by another kind of pollution, as I am a
light sleeper and wake up several times a night from yet another individual
who thinks he is making an impression by his ability to install an
after-market exhaust or bass boost. I seriously wish that laws on noise
pollution were actually enforced, because my health suffers from the trivial
choices made by others.
Anyway, to return to your issue:
To get a good deal on used batteries, you could scout for "planned" replaced
golf cart batteries (are there golf courses or communities with NEVs
nearby?) and test your current batteries to see if there are a few stinkers
and the rest is still reasonable, or that all are dead.
In the first situation it makes sense to replace just the bad ones with used
batteries.
In the last case you need a lot of batteries and balancing them is going to
be an issue, because they will be at different ages.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Brueggemann
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 11:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think you have the wrong perspective,
Viewed from your perspective...
> Nobody said that an EV is going to be much cheaper in the short run.
Or the long run.
> I am concerned about the actual cost of pollution
I am not, and the masses don't either. I don't believe EV's are, as a whole,
less polluting than any other vehicle.
There's more to consider than just the generation/conversion of energy.
> the price is paid by the people suffering from Asthma and other
> problems, so it is a hidden cost
I pay for cigarette smoker's cancer treatments too, so ultimately the have's
pay more than the have-not's. You can't put a number
on that. Not all asthma is caused by gasoline cars. Some will
say part of global warming is caused from methane generated by McDonald's
beef cows. Using your logic, Big Macs and Happy Meals cause global warming.
Does it cancel out if I go through the drive-through in my EV?
> and running my EV keeps the majority of pollution out of my
> neighborhood,
It has a magic air shield? I don't understand. My neighbor's Bonneville
generates the same CO/CO2 whether I drive my EV or ICE. Did you used to
drive something much more polluting that now your EV has lowered your
neighborhoods' pollution level?
> I am paying for piece of mind, which I value.
That's intangible. I slept well at night before and after I
built my EV.
> I don't see batteries as "fuel cost", but more as a
> maintenance item.
Agreed, but they have a fairly predictable, finite life, like
tires. Technically it's not fuel, but their life and cost per
mile are factors to be considered in the overall operating cost.
If you are ingoring that, you are ignoring reality. No matter
what column you put it in, the cost falls to the bottom line.
> The reduced maintenance cost on my car, which has been to the
> dealer since <NEVER>, at a cost of <zero> is more or less
> paying for the cost of the batteries.
I've seen this point brought up over the years and I still don't
get it. My wife and I bought a gasser family car not long after
I finished my EV. It has been to the dealer <NEVER> as well.
Over 100K miles and so far a set of brakes, tires, an SLI and
oil changes. That's 2x the miles than I have on my EV. Not
sure what kind of cars everyone's driving that needs thousands
of dollars of repairs every few years. I've never spent that
much on repairs for all the ICE's I've owned my entire life.
> Note that the numbers from the AAA are that average US vehicle
> operational cost
Problem with that cost per mile figure is it makes a lot of
assumptions as to vehicle acquisition costs, depreciation and
regular replacement. It's also not factoring in the ultimate
replacement of the EV chassis, which isn't something you can
just go out and buy. It's not an apples-apples comparison.
My ICE vehicle costs come nowhere near that figure, and I have
20+ years of accumulated data on all of them.
> The fuel cost is then only the electricity,
But you're hiding your head in the sand if you don't consider
all of the operating costs. The fact that it's more 'green'
than gasoline does have intangible benefits that need to be
considered, but you can't look at that alone. The electricity
is just a difference in potential without the machinery and
storage to put it to work. That has real costs.
> Since the price of raw lead has gone up steeply recently,
> batteries have seen 2 or 3 price increases in the past year.
I haven't been following battery news, and wasn't aware of
that. That explains it.
> Let me know if you have a different perspective ;-)
I have an EV for less than altruistic reasons. It was a fun
project, I learned a lot doing it and at this point I think
my construction methods have proven themselves over time and
miles. When I first built it at ~$1.25/gal I anticipated a break
even operating point of $1.42 a gallon, given battery prices
of the day and a clearly overoptimistic battery life estimation.
Now that I've had a few packs through it and understand some
of the limitations of flooded lead acid, that break even
point is about double the initial estimate, and as of today,
about 2.5 times, about $3.50/gal equivalent. I had a controller
fail early on, so that really put a whammy on cost/mile, but
I'm not even factoring that in right now. Then there's subtle
things like tires and brakes that only last half as long, the
chassis gets the shit beaten out of it from all the extra weight,
requiring twice as often suspension repairs, and minor electrical
maintenance like terminal upkeep, watering and other random
issues. So really, it's still like owning a gas car, just that
you work on different things for different reasons. Now, in the
grand scheme of things, the overall cost of ownership is still
way cheaper than many gas vehicles out there, and because I need
a pickup truck, the acquisition cost of a replacement ICE
equivalent keeps the EV as a contender. But this EV is not an
inexpensive vehicle to operate. For those more concerned about
the environment, doing the "right thing", energy independance,
etc then this additional cost might be worth it, but only in
their own mind. I understand a lot of that, but I also
understand the economic side of it, and I don't believe battery
EV's are the answer, at least not today. I think it's a bit
hypocritical to evangelize a mode of transportation that hasn't
proven itself to be practical. If they were, you could buy one.
To me, it's a shiny box I get into and go to work, take to the
grocery store, haul trash to the dump, etc, just like millions
of other people in their shiny boxes, irrespective of motive
force. If you think you're going to change political and
economic forces on a national and global level by driving an
EV and sending more than your fair share of lead to the recycler,
you're working it from the wrong end. I have not seen how EV's
solve some of the more fundamental issues surrounding private
vehicle ownership like urban sprawl, land consumed my ever
expanding roads, and the byproducts of EV production and disposal.
I understand that while underway they are less polluting, but
they still need tires, have lots of plastic parts, involve the
smelting of steel and aluminum, plus a fair share of
semiconductors and their inherent byproducts of production and
disposal. Not to mention the *millions and millions* of spent
batteries to be dealt with, irrespective of chemistry. This
all costs time, energy (real and personal) and material
resources, however inert they may or may not be.
EV's can be fun and cool, but in terms of being a solution
to the national/global problems at hand, they ain't it.
A step towards a better solution perhaps, but BEV's
couldn't make it 30 years ago, and they won't today. It's
not like I just hopped in here on EVDL to beat up on EV's,
I've been at this game a while and have experienced pretty
much everything associated with them. I started off
objectively and I think I still am. I hope you see this not
as an effort to pee in your wheaties but an honest observation
from someone that's been there, done it, and isn't convinced.
Meanwhile, I guess I'll plan on getting another pack, beats
walking to work or an outright vehicle replacement.
Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
50K EV miles since 1997
--- End Message ---
