EV Digest 6454
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: 25 points about - regen (and 'controlllers: the nth option')
by thomas ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: 25 points about - regen (and 'controlllers: the nth option')
by thomas ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Toyotas Hybrid E-News: High-Performance Hybrids
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Arrogant Ignorance
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Toyotas Hybrid E-News: High-Performance Hybrids
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Discontinued Saft STM5-180's
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Replace Controller Caps?
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Replace Controller Caps?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> Mark Brueggemann wrote
>
> I think it's a bit hypocritical to
> evangelize a mode of transportation
> that hasn't proven itself to be practical.
> If they were, you could buy one.
Is that like saying if NiMH batteries were proven practical that we could
actually buy them? Hmmm.
> Not to mention the *millions and millions* of spent
> batteries to be dealt with, irrespective of chemistry. This
> all costs time, energy (real and personal) and material
> resources, however inert they may or may not be.
If it only costs time and energy it only means someone else has a job in
recycling them. True producing a new car takes
materials. But converting a car from an existing chassis like we're doing
keeps one carcas out of the landfill and does not cost
to remanufacture; which I guess would detract from the job market. Just think
if there were that 30/30/30 split (like in the
early 1900's) between gas cars, electric cars and steam cars still on the road
today. There would be junk EV's that would also be
cheap to buy and rebuild. This instead of buying a cheap gasser carcas and
spending a lot of money to convert it. To electric.
Think about that, having your choice of junk cars ;-)
> but BEV's couldn't make it 30 years ago,
> and they won't today.
They could have though. What if GM saw the wisdom in buying the electric
trolley systems because they were efficient and kept
them operating. And even began researching and producing EV's? What if right
now 99% of the vehicles on the road were electric.
How hard would it be for someone to come in and say, "hey lets burn oil in our
cars, yeah they're dirtier, but hey you can drive
them all the way out of town and live in the suburbs where the air is cleaner".
Mike
Anchorage, Ak.
MightyMax EV
barely 4K EV miles since 2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BTW,
Did you contact Hensley? They are supposed to be the official main dealer of
Trojan in NM
http://www.trojan-battery.com/About-Us/SiteMap2.aspx
If anyone can give you a good deal on a pack, they should be able to
(usually you can get a
much better price for a pallet than for a single retail battery, I organised
a bulk buy for
myself and two other EV'ers and registered with the supplier as a dealer, so
I got the
dealer pricing) You need 24 batteries if you need to replace them all, that
is a reasonable
amount of lead.
I hear that you are aware of the impact we have on this earth, that is a
good point to start from when changing things for the better, I have used
the bicycle for as many local trips as possible and still I like to ride to
work once a week, though the distance is 10 mi each way.
Not sure how you classify "sending more than my fair share of lead to the
recycler", the recycling is included in the cost of the battery, so
recycling it should be fair. In fact, recycling EV batteries is a whole lot
better than the primary batteries that I see go to the landfill by the
millions. (Not to mention the UPS'es with the lead battery still installed,
chucked in the waste bin)
I did not say that an EV was an ideal solution, but the way you put it
sounds very negative, it surprises me because I usually hear this kind of
take on EV's only from people who are ill-informed.
To quote one example: you pay for a smoker's poor health. Does that make
smoking a good option? No, not only exactly because of the effect on health,
but also because a smoker will pay higher premiums due to the impact of his
decisions on his health. That can even go to the point that a doctor refuses
to treat him unless he quits.
Why do you say that my joy and piece of mind are intangible as if you can
dismiss it, having no value and thus it would not justify paying money for
it. Seeing a movie is intangible. Having many transceivers is intangible,
because mostly you are only chatting with someone else. How can you justify
having so much equipment in your truck? Sorry, but I think this is a
non-argument. The EV grin is for real.
I completely agree with you that urban sprawl is the cancer eating at our
society and our environment and I hope that enough people see it soon enough
to change the zoning laws that make the US such a segregated society with
living in one part of town, work in another, school in yet another and
shopping usually outside of town. Not a good planning to go everywhere
walking, biking or by public transport and meeting your neighbors is a
special event.
Very soon the planners will be forced to reconsider, so until that moment I
will continue to bite my lip and try to influence at local level (BPAC) to
keep pedestrian and bicycling facilities from falling prey to the hunger of
the automobile.
Although my driving-an-EV will not likely make an impact at national or
global level, it is a witness at my personal level and everyone around me,
my neighborhood, church, company, everyone regularly commuting through Santa
Clara - literally thousands of people are becoming aware that it is possible
to commute by EV and use a car for almost all of your driving without using
(imported) oil.
Like Lee once said, it is almost impossible to convey a personal vision to
others, but it is possible to stand up, go to the driver of the bus and say
"let me out, right here. I think the bridge is out and I don't want to find
out too late". Some others may follow you. If enough people become aware
that EVs are possible, they will be made because there is a market. Plug In
America shows that with the right efforts, a lot of awareness can be
harnessed.
Seeing GM switch to an electric drivetrain, because that is the most
flexible and efficient platform to run multiple different fuel types on
(oil, ethanol, hydrogen or straight battery electric) simply by converting
everything to electricity first, well - that gives me hope that soon EV
parts will be commonplace.
BTW, I was talking about >my< pollution. Driving an EV keeps my tailpipe
pollution away and since California has a large part of their energy
generated by renewable means and an even larger part using natural gas,
combined with me charging my car at night when there is a surplus of
electricity, I know that my driving habit has an impact that is several
times lower than when I would have an ICE vehicle for my daily driving.
Yes, I am aware of your history in EVs and the famous double-needle
state-of-charge meter
that you designed, a very innovative idea that probably only a HAM can come
up with.
I looked at the bank of transceivers in your truck with a bit of envy, as I
was a licensed
amateur before I moved to the USA (PE1LEG)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 11:52 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
Hi Mark,
Can I say that you sound slightly negative?
Of course flooded batteries need maintenance. I hope you knew that when you
converted your S10 10 years ago.
You may call yourself lucky that you have had such good service from all
your ICE cars, not many people have so much luck.
Indeed, I bought a reasonable cheap car, it could run on LPG so that was a
benefit until I found out a few months later that it had engine troubles,
probably already diagnosed by the person from whom I bought it, but hard to
prove (and I had a mechanic check the car over, but he did not find it, so I
thought it was OK when I bought it).
I have had a lot of other issues with several ICE cars (and a lot of luck
with some other) so today I am very happy with my second car - a Toyota
Prius. But I do know that when it fails in anything connected to the engine
or transaxle, the dealer will write a 4-figure bill just to start working on
it, not even including parts.
The reason I mentioned Asthma, is because I do have a daughter and she does
suffer because of the pollution.
Personally I am much more bothered by another kind of pollution, as I am a
light sleeper and wake up several times a night from yet another individual
who thinks he is making an impression by his ability to install an
after-market exhaust or bass boost. I seriously wish that laws on noise
pollution were actually enforced, because my health suffers from the trivial
choices made by others.
Anyway, to return to your issue:
To get a good deal on used batteries, you could scout for "planned" replaced
golf cart batteries (are there golf courses or communities with NEVs
nearby?) and test your current batteries to see if there are a few stinkers
and the rest is still reasonable, or that all are dead.
In the first situation it makes sense to replace just the bad ones with used
batteries.
In the last case you need a lot of batteries and balancing them is going to
be an issue, because they will be at different ages.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Brueggemann
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 11:07 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think you have the wrong perspective,
Viewed from your perspective...
> Nobody said that an EV is going to be much cheaper in the short run.
Or the long run.
> I am concerned about the actual cost of pollution
I am not, and the masses don't either. I don't believe EV's are, as a whole,
less polluting than any other vehicle.
There's more to consider than just the generation/conversion of energy.
> the price is paid by the people suffering from Asthma and other
> problems, so it is a hidden cost
I pay for cigarette smoker's cancer treatments too, so ultimately the have's
pay more than the have-not's. You can't put a number
on that. Not all asthma is caused by gasoline cars. Some will
say part of global warming is caused from methane generated by McDonald's
beef cows. Using your logic, Big Macs and Happy Meals cause global warming.
Does it cancel out if I go through the drive-through in my EV?
> and running my EV keeps the majority of pollution out of my
> neighborhood,
It has a magic air shield? I don't understand. My neighbor's Bonneville
generates the same CO/CO2 whether I drive my EV or ICE. Did you used to
drive something much more polluting that now your EV has lowered your
neighborhoods' pollution level?
> I am paying for piece of mind, which I value.
That's intangible. I slept well at night before and after I built my EV.
> I don't see batteries as "fuel cost", but more as a
> maintenance item.
Agreed, but they have a fairly predictable, finite life, like
tires. Technically it's not fuel, but their life and cost per
mile are factors to be considered in the overall operating cost.
If you are ingoring that, you are ignoring reality. No matter
what column you put it in, the cost falls to the bottom line.
> The reduced maintenance cost on my car, which has been to the
> dealer since <NEVER>, at a cost of <zero> is more or less
> paying for the cost of the batteries.
I've seen this point brought up over the years and I still don't
get it. My wife and I bought a gasser family car not long after
I finished my EV. It has been to the dealer <NEVER> as well.
Over 100K miles and so far a set of brakes, tires, an SLI and
oil changes. That's 2x the miles than I have on my EV. Not
sure what kind of cars everyone's driving that needs thousands
of dollars of repairs every few years. I've never spent that
much on repairs for all the ICE's I've owned my entire life.
> Note that the numbers from the AAA are that average US vehicle
> operational cost
Problem with that cost per mile figure is it makes a lot of
assumptions as to vehicle acquisition costs, depreciation and
regular replacement. It's also not factoring in the ultimate
replacement of the EV chassis, which isn't something you can
just go out and buy. It's not an apples-apples comparison.
My ICE vehicle costs come nowhere near that figure, and I have
20+ years of accumulated data on all of them.
> The fuel cost is then only the electricity,
But you're hiding your head in the sand if you don't consider
all of the operating costs. The fact that it's more 'green'
than gasoline does have intangible benefits that need to be
considered, but you can't look at that alone. The electricity
is just a difference in potential without the machinery and
storage to put it to work. That has real costs.
> Since the price of raw lead has gone up steeply recently,
> batteries have seen 2 or 3 price increases in the past year.
I haven't been following battery news, and wasn't aware of
that. That explains it.
> Let me know if you have a different perspective ;-)
I have an EV for less than altruistic reasons. It was a fun
project, I learned a lot doing it and at this point I think
my construction methods have proven themselves over time and
miles. When I first built it at ~$1.25/gal I anticipated a break
even operating point of $1.42 a gallon, given battery prices
of the day and a clearly overoptimistic battery life estimation.
Now that I've had a few packs through it and understand some
of the limitations of flooded lead acid, that break even
point is about double the initial estimate, and as of today,
about 2.5 times, about $3.50/gal equivalent. I had a controller
fail early on, so that really put a whammy on cost/mile, but
I'm not even factoring that in right now. Then there's subtle
things like tires and brakes that only last half as long, the
chassis gets the shit beaten out of it from all the extra weight,
requiring twice as often suspension repairs, and minor electrical
maintenance like terminal upkeep, watering and other random
issues. So really, it's still like owning a gas car, just that
you work on different things for different reasons. Now, in the
grand scheme of things, the overall cost of ownership is still
way cheaper than many gas vehicles out there, and because I need
a pickup truck, the acquisition cost of a replacement ICE
equivalent keeps the EV as a contender. But this EV is not an
inexpensive vehicle to operate. For those more concerned about
the environment, doing the "right thing", energy independance,
etc then this additional cost might be worth it, but only in
their own mind. I understand a lot of that, but I also
understand the economic side of it, and I don't believe battery
EV's are the answer, at least not today. I think it's a bit
hypocritical to evangelize a mode of transportation that hasn't
proven itself to be practical. If they were, you could buy one.
To me, it's a shiny box I get into and go to work, take to the
grocery store, haul trash to the dump, etc, just like millions
of other people in their shiny boxes, irrespective of motive
force. If you think you're going to change political and
economic forces on a national and global level by driving an
EV and sending more than your fair share of lead to the recycler,
you're working it from the wrong end. I have not seen how EV's
solve some of the more fundamental issues surrounding private
vehicle ownership like urban sprawl, land consumed my ever
expanding roads, and the byproducts of EV production and disposal.
I understand that while underway they are less polluting, but
they still need tires, have lots of plastic parts, involve the
smelting of steel and aluminum, plus a fair share of
semiconductors and their inherent byproducts of production and
disposal. Not to mention the *millions and millions* of spent
batteries to be dealt with, irrespective of chemistry. This
all costs time, energy (real and personal) and material
resources, however inert they may or may not be.
EV's can be fun and cool, but in terms of being a solution
to the national/global problems at hand, they ain't it.
A step towards a better solution perhaps, but BEV's
couldn't make it 30 years ago, and they won't today. It's
not like I just hopped in here on EVDL to beat up on EV's,
I've been at this game a while and have experienced pretty
much everything associated with them. I started off
objectively and I think I still am. I hope you see this not
as an effort to pee in your wheaties but an honest observation
from someone that's been there, done it, and isn't convinced.
Meanwhile, I guess I'll plan on getting another pack, beats
walking to work or an outright vehicle replacement.
Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
50K EV miles since 1997
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor,
I think Seth was worried about arcing the comm rather
than burning up the field windings.
> that WHEN/IF
> the field and armature
> current gets out of balance .....
> ....then you get first arcing
> and sparking at the
> commutator
as far as I know(very little) the likelihood of arcing
is related to current through the armature which is
related to field strength, voltage and RPM.
Iarmature=(Varmature-RPM * n turns * field strength )
/ Rarmature
The field strength is related to the voltage and
current through the field.
If the combination of V,RPM and field strength is
wrong the armature current and voltage will be too
high.
I believe the Zapi the controllers are programmable.
www.electrofit-zapi.com
So with a little thought you could program in some
sensible limits to avoid arcing at the comm.
If its any use to you the price I was quoted wass
£628.99 Ex vat SEM3 96v
>From what Lee Hart was saying in a previous post the
arcing problem for sepex motors is usually due to
regen. I have a sepex motor in my van and Lee's
statement agrees with the workshop manual description
of the controller and with my experience (pitted comm
- probably due to excessive regen on a daily basis
when exiting the motorway at 70mph down to 0 in 1/4
mile).
Seth,
If you find you need a >96v motor then think about the
Peugeot/Citroen cars and vans. They use 120V and
162/168V Leroy Somer sepex motors. You can buy a
complete car (120V) without batteries for 1800 euros
in France.
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=1148
Takes about 2 hours to remove the motor from the car,
weight is approx 75kg.
A 162V Leroy Somer sepex motor from a Citroen van sold
in the UK on ebay back end of last year for about
$200.
good luck
Tom Ward
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Seth,
>
> I am not sure why you are afraid of running a 72V
> motor at 96V.
> Sure - the field winding of a Sepex can be destroyed
> (burned up)
> easily because it has little mass (thin wiring) but
> the armature
> is basically the same as a series motor and they are
> abused
> routinely at around double voltage or more, while
> some racers
> manage to use a 12V motor in a vehicle with a 120V
> pack (Father
> Time, I hear).
>
> If you keep the output of the Sepex controller for
> the Field at
> the same level as for 72V operation, then there
> should be no
> problem to run the 72V motor at 96V, as EVs
> typically run for
> a short while only - when you try to run more than
> half an
> hour, you can't use full power continuously, so the
> continuous
> rating does not really apply to EVs until we can
> store much more
> energy or for someone that has another source than a
> battery.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private:
> http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD#
> 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life:
>
www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Seth Myers
> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 1:00 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: 25 points about - regen (and 'controlllers:
> the nth option')
>
> ok, well I did get some hlepful directions about
> this guy and where to find
> discussions - thanks for those!
>
> as persuggestions, on to a more technical issue:
>
> I've been looking into regen systems, and can find
> some controllers for
> those (Zapi), though they are more complicated than
> the hobbyist-friendly
> Curtis controller, and Zapi has not dedicated
> customer service staff to
> helping use of these by the hobbyists (which Curtis
> seems to have sort of
> done with their various dealers). They seem to make
> SepEx controllers for
> material handling, though only up to 96 volts (but
> that's what I'm
> considering on either an old vw beetle chassis
> (pretty light weight, like
> all those Ghias, but will probably need some
> reinforcing to carry 96 volts
> worth of 6 volt golf cart batteries
> (16x62 lbs.) )
> or on a new beetle I got an extraordinary deal on
> (well, of course it has no
> engine or transmission, as they were gutted for a
> local university's
> Challenge X contest) which probably couldn't hold
> more than 16 gc batteries.
> Anyway, SepEx offers the advantages of
> apparently smoother driving (less
> 'torquey' - do I sound like an American Idol judge
> with their eternal gripe
> about 'pitchiness?' (I have a wife and daughters,
> otherwise I would fein no
> knowledge of 'ai') (ok, really off taget with the
> discussion here) and regen
> which doesn't require any extra contactors.
> However, finding a motor that
> does > 72 volts and is SepEx is turning out to be a
> bit of a sticky wicket:
> Material handling seems to use these motors the
> most, but they are typically
> 72 volts or under. I asked one 'common ev motor
> maker,'
> shall I say,
> and they said using their 72 volt, 8" motor with
> regen at 96 volts would
> likely work, for some time anyway, but that WHEN/IF
> the field and armature
> current gets out of balance (which they can't verify
> because their dyno
> doesn't go to 96 volts) then you get first arcing
> and sparkingat the
> commutator end, then you burn up the motor;
> otherwise, the motor just runs
> hotter and faster.
> So, likely experimenting with one of these 72
> volt motors is not
> probably a good idea ...
> Any one have any other sugestions for say a 96 volt
> SepEx motor (since it
> would beeven harder to find a SepEx controller above
> 96 volts, I can only
> imagine)?
>
> Also, as to 'controllers the nth option' - has
> anyone seriously
> considered Zapis series motor controllers, they seem
> to go up to 1000 Amps
> if you like, 120 volts, don't seem really high
> priced. Less user friendly
> than Curtis since their wiring is more difficult,
> but if you're going to try
> to make your own controller, a few extra wires and
> manual reading shouldn't
> be so difficult ... I've heard they had some problem
> with contactors wearing
> out, but that (they said) that "Also, the bad
> experience that many people
> have had with contactors relates to a lack of
> sealing of the tips. If you
> get a sealed contactor, you should not have trouble.
> In general, the
> contactor will close and stay closed during
> operation. Since there will be
> no need to open and close the contactor, the life
> should be longer than
> others have experienced with regen and
> forward/reverse contactors."
> Any comments - maybe something to revisit or try
> out? If so, I'll keep
> y'all posted ...
>
> Seth
>
>
___________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor,
I think Seth was worried about arcing the comm rather
than burning up the field windings.
> that WHEN/IF
> the field and armature
> current gets out of balance .....
> ....then you get first arcing
> and sparking at the
> commutator
as far as I know(very little) the likelihood of arcing
is related to current through the armature which is
related to field strength, voltage and RPM.
Iarmature=(Varmature-RPM * n turns * field strength )
/ Rarmature
The field strength is related to the voltage and
current through the field.
If the combination of V,RPM and field strength is
wrong the armature current and voltage will be too
high.
I believe the Zapi the controllers are programmable.
www.electrofit-zapi.com
So with a little thought you could program in some
sensible limits to avoid arcing at the comm.
If its any use to you the price I was quoted wass
£628.99 Ex vat SEM3 96v
>From what Lee Hart was saying in a previous post the
arcing problem for sepex motors is usually due to
regen. I have a sepex motor in my van and Lee's
statement agrees with the workshop manual description
of the controller and with my experience (pitted comm
- probably due to excessive regen on a daily basis
when exiting the motorway at 70mph down to 0 in 1/4
mile).
Seth,
If you find you need a >96v motor then think about the
Peugeot/Citroen cars and vans. They use 120V and
162/168V Leroy Somer sepex motors. You can buy a
complete car (120V) without batteries for 1800 euros
in France.
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=1148
Takes about 2 hours to remove the motor from the car,
weight is approx 75kg.
A 162V Leroy Somer sepex motor from a Citroen van sold
in the UK on ebay back end of last year for about
$200.
good luck
Tom Ward
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Seth,
>
> I am not sure why you are afraid of running a 72V
> motor at 96V.
> Sure - the field winding of a Sepex can be destroyed
> (burned up)
> easily because it has little mass (thin wiring)
> If you keep the output of the Sepex controller for
> the Field at
> the same level as for 72V operation, then there
> should be no
> problem to run the 72V motor at 96V,
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Seth Myers
> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 1:00 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: 25 points about - regen (and 'controlllers:
> the nth option')
>
>
....
......
> 72 volts or under. I asked one 'common ev motor
> maker,'
> shall I say,
> and they said using their 72 volt, 8" motor with
> regen at 96 volts would
> likely work, for some time anyway, but that WHEN/IF
> the field and armature
> current gets out of balance (which they can't verify
> because their dyno
> doesn't go to 96 volts) then you get first arcing
> and sparkingat the
> commutator end, then you burn up the motor;
> otherwise, the motor just runs
> hotter and faster.
.....
> Seth
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Well, I just got the latest Winter 2007 installment of Toyota's
"Hybrid Synergy View Newsletter - For Hybrid Owners and Enthusiasts"
The very last story is the one that caught my eye the most:
"Plug-In Hybrid's: What is the state of the art?"
" Many challenges face the world's automakers The idea seems simple
enough: Just add a cord and a plug to a Prius so you can charge its
battery on ordinary household electric current overnight. Then, use only
the battery power to make the short round-trips to work, school or the
store. That would save lots of gas, and the charging could be done
mainly at night, when utility rates are cheaper. When driving longer
distances, the engine kicks in and the vehicle operates on gasoline,
much like today's Hybrid Synergy Drive(R) vehicles. Read more... "
http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/2007/winter/plugin.html
I'm not going to give you the full article here because I want you
all to go visit this page at their website yourself, and perhaps
contact them about your take on what they are saying there...
I personally feel that it's the same old excuses, batteries aren't
ready yet and the motors might need to be larger for proper "All
Electric Drive". A new one to me is the mention of the potential
problem of compatibility with the worlds diverse AC Grid standards?
Come on, get real, now you're just making stuff up, if my laptop can
run on 50-60Hz 90-240vac then you can charge your car easily enough.
The MM-PFC charger in my PHEV-10/20 Prius runs on 90-300 vac/vdc!
- http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/PriusBlue
Curiously enough another "issue" mentioned was the greater cost and
longer payback period. Though I wonder what the cost difference and
payback times are for their newsletter headlines, a turbocharged SUV
and a high performance Hybrid Sports Car, no doubt these aren't cheap.
"Power and Performance: Toyota Brings More -
Toyota is speeding up the evolution of hybrid technology"
http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/2007/winter/concept.html
See also their Newsletter Archives:
http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/archive.html
L8r
Ryan
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--- Begin Message ---
Wow. Why do you even have an EV in the first place? Its just your money
that you are concerned with - dump your EV and get a Geo Metro. Your
pocketbook will be better off.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Brueggemann
Sent: February 21, 2007 11:07 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think you have the wrong perspective,
Viewed from your perspective...
> Nobody said that an EV is going to be much cheaper in the short run.
Or the long run.
> I am concerned about the actual cost of pollution
I am not, and the masses don't either. I don't believe EV's are, as a whole,
less polluting than any other vehicle.
There's more to consider than just the generation/conversion of energy.
> the price is paid by the people suffering from Asthma and other
> problems, so it is a hidden cost
I pay for cigarette smoker's cancer treatments too, so ultimately the have's
pay more than the have-not's. You can't put a number
on that. Not all asthma is caused by gasoline cars. Some will
say part of global warming is caused from methane generated by McDonald's
beef cows. Using your logic, Big Macs and Happy Meals cause global warming.
Does it cancel out if I go through the drive-through in my EV?
> and running my EV keeps the majority of pollution out of my
> neighborhood,
It has a magic air shield? I don't understand. My neighbor's Bonneville
generates the same CO/CO2 whether I drive my EV or ICE. Did you used to
drive something much more polluting that now your EV has lowered your
neighborhoods' pollution level?
> I am paying for piece of mind, which I value.
That's intangible. I slept well at night before and after I
built my EV.
> I don't see batteries as "fuel cost", but more as a
> maintenance item.
Agreed, but they have a fairly predictable, finite life, like
tires. Technically it's not fuel, but their life and cost per
mile are factors to be considered in the overall operating cost.
If you are ingoring that, you are ignoring reality. No matter
what column you put it in, the cost falls to the bottom line.
> The reduced maintenance cost on my car, which has been to the
> dealer since <NEVER>, at a cost of <zero> is more or less
> paying for the cost of the batteries.
I've seen this point brought up over the years and I still don't
get it. My wife and I bought a gasser family car not long after
I finished my EV. It has been to the dealer <NEVER> as well.
Over 100K miles and so far a set of brakes, tires, an SLI and
oil changes. That's 2x the miles than I have on my EV. Not
sure what kind of cars everyone's driving that needs thousands
of dollars of repairs every few years. I've never spent that
much on repairs for all the ICE's I've owned my entire life.
> Note that the numbers from the AAA are that average US vehicle
> operational cost
Problem with that cost per mile figure is it makes a lot of
assumptions as to vehicle acquisition costs, depreciation and
regular replacement. It's also not factoring in the ultimate
replacement of the EV chassis, which isn't something you can
just go out and buy. It's not an apples-apples comparison.
My ICE vehicle costs come nowhere near that figure, and I have
20+ years of accumulated data on all of them.
> The fuel cost is then only the electricity,
But you're hiding your head in the sand if you don't consider
all of the operating costs. The fact that it's more 'green'
than gasoline does have intangible benefits that need to be
considered, but you can't look at that alone. The electricity
is just a difference in potential without the machinery and
storage to put it to work. That has real costs.
> Since the price of raw lead has gone up steeply recently,
> batteries have seen 2 or 3 price increases in the past year.
I haven't been following battery news, and wasn't aware of
that. That explains it.
> Let me know if you have a different perspective ;-)
I have an EV for less than altruistic reasons. It was a fun
project, I learned a lot doing it and at this point I think
my construction methods have proven themselves over time and
miles. When I first built it at ~$1.25/gal I anticipated a break
even operating point of $1.42 a gallon, given battery prices
of the day and a clearly overoptimistic battery life estimation.
Now that I've had a few packs through it and understand some
of the limitations of flooded lead acid, that break even
point is about double the initial estimate, and as of today,
about 2.5 times, about $3.50/gal equivalent. I had a controller
fail early on, so that really put a whammy on cost/mile, but
I'm not even factoring that in right now. Then there's subtle
things like tires and brakes that only last half as long, the
chassis gets the shit beaten out of it from all the extra weight,
requiring twice as often suspension repairs, and minor electrical
maintenance like terminal upkeep, watering and other random
issues. So really, it's still like owning a gas car, just that
you work on different things for different reasons. Now, in the
grand scheme of things, the overall cost of ownership is still
way cheaper than many gas vehicles out there, and because I need
a pickup truck, the acquisition cost of a replacement ICE
equivalent keeps the EV as a contender. But this EV is not an
inexpensive vehicle to operate. For those more concerned about
the environment, doing the "right thing", energy independance,
etc then this additional cost might be worth it, but only in
their own mind. I understand a lot of that, but I also
understand the economic side of it, and I don't believe battery
EV's are the answer, at least not today. I think it's a bit
hypocritical to evangelize a mode of transportation that hasn't
proven itself to be practical. If they were, you could buy one.
To me, it's a shiny box I get into and go to work, take to the
grocery store, haul trash to the dump, etc, just like millions
of other people in their shiny boxes, irrespective of motive
force. If you think you're going to change political and
economic forces on a national and global level by driving an
EV and sending more than your fair share of lead to the recycler,
you're working it from the wrong end. I have not seen how EV's
solve some of the more fundamental issues surrounding private
vehicle ownership like urban sprawl, land consumed my ever
expanding roads, and the byproducts of EV production and disposal.
I understand that while underway they are less polluting, but
they still need tires, have lots of plastic parts, involve the
smelting of steel and aluminum, plus a fair share of
semiconductors and their inherent byproducts of production and
disposal. Not to mention the *millions and millions* of spent
batteries to be dealt with, irrespective of chemistry. This
all costs time, energy (real and personal) and material
resources, however inert they may or may not be.
EV's can be fun and cool, but in terms of being a solution
to the national/global problems at hand, they ain't it.
A step towards a better solution perhaps, but BEV's
couldn't make it 30 years ago, and they won't today. It's
not like I just hopped in here on EVDL to beat up on EV's,
I've been at this game a while and have experienced pretty
much everything associated with them. I started off
objectively and I think I still am. I hope you see this not
as an effort to pee in your wheaties but an honest observation
from someone that's been there, done it, and isn't convinced.
Meanwhile, I guess I'll plan on getting another pack, beats
walking to work or an outright vehicle replacement.
Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
50K EV miles since 1997
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Did anyone see the Discovery show "Future Cars" last night 2/21/07 ? They
didn't do much research on the EV's and stating as a fact that an air car can
be perpetual motion. They pointed out that the Tesla had thousands of cells,
the MTBF must be horrible and claims of 130mph at 250 miles range are
rediculous. Some of the future car manufacturers I know are not on the EVlist
otherwise they would seperate fact from fiction. When I worked at GE-EV most
engineers thought prior electric vehicle knowledge on the EVlist was silly.
Their on-road EV division was desolved in 99' when I got laid off. I've seen
this "arrogant ignorance" (also occurs in high offices) over the years in many
new EV wannabee car companies, grab some newly minted generic engineers (who
could care less about EV's) do some fancy marketing, troll for investors and
EV's get a bad name in the public when basic principals are ignored.
Have a renewable energy day,
Mark in Roanoke, VA
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Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar.
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--- Begin Message ---
Apparently Toyota must think that "WKTEV" was never
released, or that we, the American public are
completely stupid.
1) RAV-4EV goes 110mi. per charge on NiMH
2) RAV-4EV is marketed & people love it.
3) Toyota stops selling 42K RAV4EVs in SoCal.
4) Toyota sends out press releases saying the
batteries are "not yet ready".
Ready to do what? Go 700 mi. on a charge?
Give me a break!
--- Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, I just got the latest Winter 2007 installment
> of Toyota's
> "Hybrid Synergy View Newsletter - For Hybrid Owners
> and Enthusiasts"
>
> The very last story is the one that caught my eye
> the most:
> "Plug-In Hybrid's: What is the state of the art?"
> " Many challenges face the world's automakers The
> idea seems simple
> enough: Just add a cord and a plug to a Prius so you
> can charge its
> battery on ordinary household electric current
> overnight. Then, use only
> the battery power to make the short round-trips to
> work, school or the
> store. That would save lots of gas, and the charging
> could be done
> mainly at night, when utility rates are cheaper.
> When driving longer
> distances, the engine kicks in and the vehicle
> operates on gasoline,
> much like today's Hybrid Synergy Drive(R) vehicles.
> Read more... "
>
http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/2007/winter/plugin.html
>
> I'm not going to give you the full article here
> because I want you
> all to go visit this page at their website yourself,
> and perhaps
> contact them about your take on what they are saying
> there...
>
> I personally feel that it's the same old excuses,
> batteries aren't
> ready yet and the motors might need to be larger for
> proper "All
> Electric Drive". A new one to me is the mention of
> the potential
> problem of compatibility with the worlds diverse AC
> Grid standards?
> Come on, get real, now you're just making stuff up,
> if my laptop can
> run on 50-60Hz 90-240vac then you can charge your
> car easily enough.
> The MM-PFC charger in my PHEV-10/20 Prius runs on
> 90-300 vac/vdc!
> - http://www.eaa-phev.org/wiki/PriusBlue
>
> Curiously enough another "issue" mentioned was the
> greater cost and
> longer payback period. Though I wonder what the
> cost difference and
> payback times are for their newsletter headlines, a
> turbocharged SUV
> and a high performance Hybrid Sports Car, no doubt
> these aren't cheap.
> "Power and Performance: Toyota Brings More -
> Toyota is speeding up the evolution of hybrid
> technology"
>
http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/2007/winter/concept.html
>
> See also their Newsletter Archives:
>
http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyview/archive.html
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Did they replace them with another similar model? I just bought 14ea new
plus two used one's for spares, they are supposed to last 3k cycles or 60k
miles (about 5 years for me). It would be nice if there were replacements.
They do have a drinking problem and are 80% efficient as opposed to floodeds
90% but they do better in the winter and are 51lbs each instead of 65lbs.
Best Regards,
Mark
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Electric Vehicle
Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu> Subject: Re: It's official, the
Saft STM5-180 nicad has been discontinued Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:15:24
-0800 Plain Text Attachment [ Scan and Save to Computer | Save to Yahoo!
Briefcase ]
I guess they were a good chemistry with long life but weren't they as
expensive as NiMH & hard to find a charger for? After all is said and done
wasn't it about a 20 k experience to get a hundred mile range in a small
conversion? Lawrence Rhodes......... ----- Original Message ----- From:
"Paul Wallace" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<ev@listproc.sjsu.edu> Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 10:12 AM Subject:
It's official, the Saft STM5-180 nicad has been discontinued > I didn't
see anyone else report this. I just got email from the support > person in
Valdosta with two items of interest. The first is that Lou > Magnarella is no
longer at Saft. The second is that the STM5-180 > batteries have been
discontinued. Lou had warned me that they might > discontinue them soon. I
guess now is soon. > > I've asked for the details on recycling the batteries
when I take mine > out of service. > > Paul Wallace
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
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Hi,
I was told (by Evamerica) that the used PMC25 I bought that was built in the
early 80's, I should replace the electrolytic caps because they dry out.
I think Lee had a procedure of putting say a 1k ohm resistor on the buss
voltage and holding 20% higher than operating for 2 hours should "reform" the
caps. Is that true, did I get it right?
The controller is up to 120V and I'm running at 84V so 100V should be ok.
The caps are rated to 200V.
Best Regards,
Mark
---------------------------------
Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
always stay connected to friends.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Mark E. Hanson
> I was told (by EVAmerica) that the used PMC25 I bought that was built in
> the early 80's, I should replace the electrolytic caps because they dry out.
>
> I think Lee had a procedure of putting say a 1k ohm resistor on the buss
> voltage and holding 20% higher than operating for 2 hours should "reform"
> the caps. Is that true, did I get it right?
When an electrolytic capacitor has sat around for a long time at low or zero
voltage, the aluminum oxide insulation between its plates degrades, getting
thinner and weaker. If you immediately apply high voltage, it will draw a high
leakage current. The capacitor can quickly overheat, and even fail (often
dramatically -- BANG)!
To ressurect it, you need to apply a lower voltage and s-l-o-w-l-y bring it
back up to full rated voltage. Because it's a capacitor, an easy way is to
connect it to a power supply through a big series resistor. The resistor should
limit the current to something under 1 milliamp per microfarad, to prevent the
capacitor from heating up.
If the capacitor is still good, you should see the voltage gradually rise over
several hours, until there is essentially zero DC current flowing into the
capacitor (less than 1 microamp per microfarad). If it's bad, the DC current
won't drop this low.
It's harder to do this if the capacitor is still wired into a circuit. You'll
have to apply the voltage gradually with a variable power source, and manually
increase it slowly back up to full rated voltage.
This isn't the only way capacitors can fail. If they have spent a lot of time
hot, or at high ripple currents, they can "dry out". The high temperatures
cause high internal pressure. The vents can leak, so they lose water. This
increases their ESR (equivalent series resistance), which makes more heat and
accellerates the process. Such capacitors have the right capacitance, but are
worthless as filters -- they allow large ripple voltages and spikes.
--
Lee Hart
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