EV Digest 6457
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVLN(PT2 EV is One Fast Mofo: 125mph, 250mi range, $42k)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Futurecar Part3 "The Fuel" ( My God, 1st Law of Thermodynamics anyone??
)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EVLN(Ultracaps In EVs)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Solectria Force NiMH Conversion - and fans/blowers
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EVLN(Th!ink EVs for Norway & England)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EVLN(S. Korea tests 4k Kia Rio hybrids)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Arrogant Ignorance
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) EVLN(Tom Hanks' ACP eBox EV)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) EVLN(Woolley: change is difficult for established automakers)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Zivan chargers (Stop dissing ... )
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Soneils
by "Mark Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery amps in Uve's EV Calculator
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: NiMH D size battery closeout
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Stop dissing Zivans, was RE: Battery charger recommendation
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Charging problems
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(PT2 EV is One Fast Mofo: 125mph, 250mi range, $42k)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.htlounge.net/articles/2457/1/Silence-PT2-All-Electric-Trike-is-One-Fast-Mofo
Silence PT2 All-Electric Trike is One Fast Mofo by Monica Tele
Published 02/12/2007 in Automobiles Published on 02/12/2007
[ http://www.htlounge.net/content_images/5/0517.jpg ]
The Tesla Roadster proved to us that electric cars don't have to
be slow. Vehicles like the Volkswagen GX-3 concept demonstrated
that maneuverability is excellent with two wheels in the front
and one fat wheel in the back. Put the idea of a speedy electric
with a sporty-looking trike, and you've got the rocket known as
the Silence PT2 by EBW & Silence Inc. This all-electric
three-wheeler is capable of going 125mph. That's pretty darn
quick.
The Silence PT2 is described as being a hybrid of an electric
car, a go-cart and a motorcycle. They've kept the weight down to
just 900 pounds, so it should be able to accelerate like none
other before topping out at the aforementioned 125mph top speed.
Measuring 13 feet long, the PT2 has a range of between 125 and
250 miles, depending on how you're driving it. I'm not a fan of
the tacky "Type R" pads on the B-pillars, but that chameleon
paint is straight up PIMP!
Better yet, the Silence PT2 is going to start shipping in the
Spring with an asking price of $42,000.
[ http://www.htlounge.net/content_images/5/0517a.jpg ]
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
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--- Begin Message ---
--- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is that like saying if NiMH batteries were proven practical
> that we could actually buy them? Hmmm.
Not sure where you're going with that one.
> If it only costs time and energy it only means someone
> else has a job in recycling them.
So it doesn't matter if there's an economic impact associated
with that? Who decides when it costs too much?
> converting a car from an existing chassis like we're
> doing keeps one carcas out of the landfill and does not cost
> to remanufacture;
That's all wonderful for the couple thousand conversions
out there, but that's not a viable business model. It also
has no measurable positive impact, other than perception.
> Just think if there were that 30/30/30 split
> There would be junk EV's that would also be
> cheap to buy and rebuild.
EV chassis don't last forever. Just as it's false economy
to convert a junk gasser, it would be equally false to
rebuild a junk EV. If you convert a POS gasser to an EV, you
end up with a POS EV. EV candidate ICE gliders still have
parts value, it's not like if the ICE fails it gets hauled
to a pit somewhere to be buried. Even as a wreck or when
used up, it's shredded and at least some is recycled. Used
to be you could go to a junkyard and see acres and acres of
scrap cars. No more. Just because you convert a gasser to an
EV doesn't necessarily mean you diverted it from a landfill,
you've just diverted it from being parted out and dispersed
into the used parts market, to be used on other ICE's.
> > but BEV's couldn't make it 30 years ago,
> > and they won't today.
>
> They could have though.
Really? So what did all of those *dozens* of entrepreneurs
and car companies all do wrong? They had a common theme- they
tried selling cars not enough people wanted. The most recent
offerings like the RAV4, Ranger, EV1, etc were all artificially
subsidized and still were not a mass consumer vehicle. In my
opinion the EV1 was an awesome car but it was a niche market
vehicle. It wasn't something GM wanted to support, and I
don't blame them.
Tesla Motors announced this week they're building a plant here
in Albuquerque. It'll be interesting to see how that goes.
At $50K a pop, they're still targeting a niche market.
> What if right now 99% of the vehicles on the road were electric.
We would be driving expensive, short range vehicles, there
would be issues with power demand on the grid, and all the
tree huggers would be up in arms about all the nuke or coal
plants that would have to be built to satisfy the demand.
There would still be commute time gridlock and farmland
would continue to be turned to freeways. Costs of goods
and services would rise to offset the high overhead of
transportation, and the standard of living would likely
decline as a consequence. That might happen anyway as fossil
fuel costs rise, but I'm not sure you can head that off. It
would have to be a pretty significant battery breakthrough,
and pretty soon, to get it to market in time.
Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, just finished watching the 3rd part of the Discovery Channels
Futurecar series and I can hardly believe what I just sat through!
Normally I throughly enjoy their programs like, Naked_Science,
Understanding, Megascience, etc. But my God, I have to wonder who
was holding the gun to the heads of the producers that allowed them
to totally ignore the 1st law of thermodynamics?
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy
They start off by admitting that we have a "gas problem". 1st
solution, Ethanol and Bio-Diesel, 2nd Hybrids, 3rd Electric,
4th Hydrogen, 5th Solar, and finally where they absolutely go
off the deep end was the "perpetual motion" air car tangent!
First 20 minutes or so was all about Ethanol and Bio, total EV
time 4 minutes, and they later make a point to say that Hydrogen
cars can be charged in 5 minutes, unlike overnight EV's. HFC-EV's
get nearly 8 minutes, followed by a BP commercial and then another
2 minutes on Hydrogen fuel stations. PV cars then get another 4
minutes, followed by the final 5 minutes about the MDI Air car.
So I can see the Ethanol and Bio-Diesel options as they are already
in use, and I especially enjoyed the Thermal Depolymerization part.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization
Of course I'm on board with the Hybrids and Electrics, especially
if the Hybrids are first and foremost able to be plugged in and
have a useful amount of electric only range (40-100 miles IMHO).
Make it a E85, E100, or Bio-Diesel PHEV-50 and you've got a winner.
They touched momentarily on the 1900's and EV1 "history" of
Electrics and then cover ACP, Tesla, and the Venturi Fetish.
Of course they then go on to spend twice as much time on Hydrogen,
while mentioning that it's just an energy carrier there's no
mention of the energy source, efficiency, or cost involved with
electrolysis nor that of the fuel cells. Of course they showed
some guy drinking water from the tail pipe. The kicker in this
section is that they proposed using your HFC-EV as a power source
for your home and to help with grid power!? V2G EV's anyone!?
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-to-grid
Next they go on to show a few solar racers, yadda yadda. Finally it's
time for the MDI Air Car http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_car which is
perfectly fine and it's an interesting technology, but much like the
Hydrogen section no mention of the energy requirements to compress
the air nor the loss of efficiency due to the heat losses of compression
and decompression. To top it all off at the very end they mention
that MDI has some sort of compressed air powered compressor/generator
thing, and I kid you not they actually say, and I quote:
" The air car isn't cost free to operate because it does take some
energy to compress air, but interestingly MDI has created a
generator powered by, compressed air. Which presents a
tantalizing possibility, what if that generator was on board the
car, then one day perhaps the compressed air that runs the cars
will also run a generator to compress it's own air. A car that
runs on air and constantly refuels itself, round and round, a
perfect circle, perpetual motion. A no cost full up ever, not
one iota of pollutants ever, and a cute car, all for about
$15,000, that's a future car. "
Oh My God, Where the heck are their science advisor's?
Now don't get me wrong, I have no problem with any of these
technologies, so long as they are all presented honestly and
realistically. I personally have a PV and PEM Fuel Cell car, a
Metal Hydride H2 fuel tank, a ~15 year old "Air Jammer" toy car
and an "Air Hog" model airplane, I would love to run my families
delivery vehicle from the old deep fat fryer grease, but I also have
a Lead-Acid/(Old)Li/(New)Li powered 24v scooter, a Honda Insight, and
a modified PHEV-10/20 Toyota Prius which I've recharged in 25 minutes.
So in the end I found that this show, while it had some good points,
was mostly misleading propaganda with some obvious detachments from
reality and the laws that govern our universe. I'm hoping that PBS
and NOVA can finally put on a real show about the "Car of the Future"
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/car/my.html soon, as we need some sanity.
L8r
Ryan
ps. Tell 'em your thoughts: http://extweb.discovery.com/ViewerRelations
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Ultracaps In EVs)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?AD=1&ArticleID=14779
[TechView: Analog & Power]
No Ultracaps In Electric Cars Yet, But Maybe There Should Be
Don Tuite ED Online ID #14779 February 15, 2007
One highlight of the January auto shows was General Motors' Chevy
Volt, a hybrid concept vehicle targeting a 40-mile all-electric
range using lithium-ion batteries and a small generator driven by
a gasoline engine. It was interesting to note that
ultracapacitors did not figure in the design. (The Tesla Motors
Roadster doesn't use ultracaps either.)
Ever since many-Farad ultracaps became available several years
ago, they've been touted as a complement to batteries for energy,
rather than power, storage. Essentially, the idea is that it's
quicker and easier to put energy into and extract energy from a
cap than a chemical battery for regenerative braking and that
first acceleration from a standstill.
"The battery pack in the Chevy Volt is located beneath the center
tunnel and consists of a high-voltage stack of cells. Lithium
batteries have very high specific energy, higher than
nickel-metal-hydride and far greater than lead-acid. A plug-in
hybrid is an energy-rich environment that many argue would not
benefit from power-dense ultracapacitors," says John M. Miller,
Maxwell Technologies' VP for advanced transportation
applications.
"Maxwell Technologies differs and believes that augmenting
lithium batteries with ultracapacitors offers an excellent
opportunity to push the plug-in hybrid vehicle battery warranty
to 15 years. This premise is based on the fact that lithium
batteries, or any battery for that matter, has finite energy
throughput and after some number of Wh-cycles will need
replacing," he continues. "Ultracapacitors offer the opportunity
to displace the wear mechanisms of charge depleting (read this as
hybrid electric vehicle cycles) from the plug-in battery pack by
passing all the dynamic cycles to the ultracapacitor and using
the lithium to deliver the deep energy discharges mandated by
charge depleting cycles (read this as battery-electric cycles),"
he notes. "Ultracapacitors provide the dynamic power buffer to
lithium's deep energy reservoir, thereby expanding cycle life
capability into the 15-year realm."
Maxwell Technologies www.maxwell.com
Copyright © 2007 Penton Media, Inc., All rights reserved
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod,
Just wanted to let you know that the fan is a 12v Papst shown here:
http://www.ebmpapst.us/allpdfs/RG160DC.PDF
It's called a flatpak because it's only 56mm thick.
Thanks,
Noel Luneau
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rod Hower
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 3:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Solectria Force NiMH Conversion - and fans/blowers
> 7. Find similar air handlers to what Solectria used
> to cool the Ovonics.
Noel,
Will these be blowers or fans? What voltage
do you target using on these devices?
I frequently 'dumpster dive' at work and have lots of
12V and 24Vdc blowers hanging around in the basement.
I'm not looking to get money for them, but I would
like to get $10 for shipping (I like to promote EV's
and recycle!).
You can check out the air performance here,
http://www.ametektip.com/ametek/PDF/CatalogsHTML/BLDCCatalog2006/index.p
hp?page=0046
Some of the blowers with built in controls have a
0-4Vdc speed command, so you could command the
performance that you want up to the maximum air
performance.
Rod
--- "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Well for Valentines Day, I cleaned out all the crap
> in the garage and
> moved the Force in.
>
> Yesterday was the start of the NiMH conversion. I
> removed all the
> batteries and did a fit test for the Ovonics.
> Interestingly enough, I
> was able to fit the standard six comfortably in the
> front and ten in the
> rear.
>
> I posted some pictures of the project in the Photo's
> section of the
> Solectria Yahoo group.
>
> So much more to do. Here is a rough draft of my
> Project plan. Feel
> free to offer advice.
>
> 1. Charge and load test the 32 batteries to
> determine the best 18.
> 2. Send two of those to Paul :)
> 3. Determine if 16 batteries will be within
> tolerance of the DC/DC
> Converter (200V Max), and AMC325 Motor Controller
> (200V Max) and if the
> 3KW NLG412 Brusa charger will not be under capacity.
> 4. Find and program the NLG412 with the correct
> charging profile for 15
> or 16 Ovonic batteries.
> 5. Program the AM325 Motor Controller for the change
> in Voltage and
> Amperage.
> 6. Find a packing material that will be able to
> withstand the heat that
> the NiMH will produce. I am not sure if the
> existing orange foam will
> suffice.
> 7. Find similar air handlers to what Solectria used
> to cool the Ovonics.
> 8. Attach the Blowers to the lid of the Battery
> boxes and provide
> ducting to the battery box exit holes.
> 9. Cut the battery boxes to provide exhaust for the
> air handlers.
> 10. Determine how to activate the blowers during
> charge and when heated.
> My Force has a circuit to activate the warming
> blanket during charge so
> maybe that can be used.
> 11. Determine if a BMS is required and if so how to
> implement.
> 12. Connect the batteries together.
> 13. Test drive.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Noel Luneau
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Th!ink EVs for Norway & England)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://news.com.com/2061-11128_3-6161125.html
Electric economy car rolls off line; company gets $25 million
February 21, 2007 1:27 PM PST
Th!ink Global is on the move.
The Norwegian company, which plans to produce a line of
all-electric sedans, produced its first car last week, said
company President Jan-Olaf Willums at the Cleantech Forum taking
place in San Francisco this week. Th!ink will start mass
producing this summer.
It's got money too. Last Friday, the company began to seek
venture funds. It got commitments for $50 million in funding and
accepted $25 million, he said. Later in the spring it will try to
raise an additional $50 million.
The cars will first be sold in Norway and England in the fall of
2007 and then come to the U.S. in 2008. Willums was a little
vague on the pricing. Consumers would buy the cars and also pay a
monthly fee to lease the battery from Th!nk. The company is
leasing the battery as a way to provide more security to buyers.
If a battery fails, the company will take it back.
The company will also team up with insurance companies to sell
policies directly to its customers.
Th!nk is the first company among the new crop of carmakers to
market a mid-range, general-purpose electric car. Tesla Motors
right now is booking orders for its $92,000 sports car, but won't
come out with a sedan until 2010. Zap Motors has kicked off a
project with England's Lotus to develop a $60,000 sedan, but it
won't be out for a few years. (Zap makes a commuter car now, but
it tops out at 35 miles per hour and can't go on the freeway.)
How did Th!nk get to market so rapidly? Ford actually developed
the car and spent over $50 million designing and testing it.
Th!nk's car won't be for everyone. Although it can drive at
freeway speeds, it has a range of about 110 to 130 miles.
Recharging the battery takes about six to seven hours, he said.
"We don't manufacture a car that will go from San Francisco to
Lake Tahoe. You can have another car for that. We will give you
the best car from San Francisco to Palo Alto (a distance of about
30 miles)."
The relatively high cost of batteries means that electric cars
cost more than their gas counterparts. Incentives in Europe,
however, are helping erode the cost delta. In London, electric
car drivers don't have to pay certain taxes and can park for
free. That can come to 8,000 pounds in savings a year. The
additional cost of the car can be paid in two years, he said.
"The city incentives are just amazing," he said. Other European
cities are considering similar measures.
The company is battery agnostic, he added. The company will get
batteries from Tesla. Willums, however, also said that the
company is working with a Swiss company that makes a submarine
battery.
Posted by Michael Kanellos [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Copyright ©2007 CNET Networks, Inc. All rights reserved
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(S. Korea tests 4k Kia Rio hybrids)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.automotiveworld.com/AEA/content.asp?contentid=58512
Switzerland: Kia Rio hybrid world premiere at Geneva motor show
By Glenn Brooks 21 February, 2007 Source: Automotive World
Kia says it will unveil a hybrid prototype version of the Rio at
the Geneva motor show on 6 March. It has not said if this will be
a hatchback or a sedan.
The OEM says the Rio Hybrid will be powered by a 90hp (67kW)
1.4-litre gasoline engine and a 16hp (12kW) synchronised electric
motor.
Later this year, the first of an eventual almost 4,000 cars will
be delivered to South Korea's Ministry of the Environment for
'real world' testing. In the home market, the Rio is known as the
Pride.
The current Rio debuted as a 110hp 1.6-litre sedan at the Detroit
show in January 2005 and then as a five-door hatchback at the
Geneva show two months later with both 1.4- and 1.6-litre
gasoline engines and a 1.5-litre turbodiesel. The Pride went on
sale in South Korea in April 2005, with Rio export versions
reaching export markets shortly after. In North America, the Rio
hatchback is known as the 'Rio5'.
Dongfeng-Yueda-Kia showed 1.4- and 1.6-litre sedan versions at
the Beijing show in November 2006. Local production started the
following month. All other Rios and Prides are built at the
Sohari plant in South Korea.
The smallest hybrid car in series production is the Honda Civic
which sits in the class above the Rio.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
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===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- Begin Message ---
It's okay; they're engineers: They never studied law. =)
Rick Todd wrote:
Isn't there a law of physics being broken here? Something about
conservation of energy. I don't know, maybe its just me.
-Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom Gocze
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Arrogant Ignorance
Speaking of Future Cars, what about the segment on the Air Car?
They said that the Air Car would recharge itself as it ran, just like
perpetual motion!!!!
Nice to see that the Discovery Channel is doing their homework!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Tom Hanks' ACP eBox EV)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.trucktrend.com/features/news/2007/163_news070221_sicon_xb_hybrid_tom_hanks/
Auto News: First eBox Delivered to Tom Hanks
February 21, 2007 Truck Trend,
AC Propulsion has delivered the first eBox customer car to Tom
Hanks. The actor and producer, a veteran EV driver, ordered his
eBox after driving the first prototype last July. "I still have a
Toyota RAV4 EV and never spent a penny on gasoline for it", said
Hanks, "What AC Propulsion is doing is fantastic. I drove their
tzero electric sports car a few years ago, so when they put the
same technology in a four-door I wanted one for myself. It has
double the range, goes fast, uses Li Ion batteries, and is
incredibly roomy and comfortable. Oh, and I will also never have
to put any gasoline into it!"
The eBox, which made its public debut in December, is a pure
electric car, not a hybrid. With no gasoline engine, the eBox
transports its occupants serenely and efficiently, at speed or in
traffic, with powerful acceleration and amazing regenerative
braking. Recharging is as close as the nearest electric outlet
because the eBox can plug in anywhere. It seats five and has one
of the roomiest rear seats in the business. Fold the rear seat
and the eBox can take a huge haul. With air conditioning,
electric heating, power steering, power windows, power mirrors
and remote door locks, the eBox matches comfort and convenience
with any car.
And there is one convenience no conventional car can match the
eBox refuels at home. Plug it in and it charges while you sleep.
In the morning, the 35 kWh Li Ion battery is ready to go up to
150 miles, more than enough for a typical days driving.
Benefiting from fifteen years of electric vehicle development at
AC Propulsion, the eBox represents electric car state of the art
- 2007. AC Propulsion has changed the perception and reality of
the electric car with innovations such as light, powerful
electric motors, maximized regenerative brakes, integrated
high-power chargers, bi-directional grid connections that let the
car supply AC power, and high-performance Li Ion traction
batteries assembled from small cells.
The eBox comes with all of these innovations as standard
equipment, making it not just a new car, but a milestone along
the path to transportation without petroleum.
Just before he drove off, silently, in his new eBox, Hanks
observed, "There are three electric cars sitting on the moon, and
now another one in my garage. The eBox makes even more sense in
Los Angeles than in the Taurus-Littrow Valley of the moon. I can
drive all weekend, hauling dogs and helping my friends move, and
the only reason I'll need to stop at a gas station is for beef
jerky and lottery tickets."
AC Propulsion, founded in 1992, designs, engineers, and
manufactures advanced propulsion systems for electric and hybrid
vehicles, and provides hardware and engineering services for an
international roster of clients. With facilities in San Dimas and
Shanghai, AC Propulsion is building technology and capacity to
supply advanced propulsion technology to electric vehicle
manufacturers worldwide.
© 2006 Truck Trend, a PRIMEDIA publication. All rights reserved.
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Woolley: change is difficult for established automakers)
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informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/02/22/037949.html
A Fresh Look at Electric Vehicles Tesla Electric
Washington DC February 22, 2007; The AIADA newsletter reported
that Steven Woolley a product manager for niche vehicles at Lotus
Engineering sees electric cars as a real possibility.
His British company is co-authoring a comprehensive feasibility
study into the creation of ultra-efficient electric cars. He
tells Automotive News that there is a niche opportunity for a new
design to move two passengers short distances and he challenges
conventional thinking, suggesting any successful electric vehicle
will come from a new entry, not an established automaker.
As he points out, a fresh engineering approach can be a big
advantage for a low-volume concept, but radical change is
difficult for established automakers.
The auto industry believes in continuous, incremental,
improvement, and customers support their efforts. However, there
is room for the occasional big leap forward.
Woolley's EV concept may work or fizzle. But taking an innovative
approach to tackling a problem can be liberating.
Lotus Press Release:
ZAP and Lotus Engineering to Carry Out Feasibility Study
for New Electric Car Concepts January 19, 2007
Electric car pioneer ZAP announced today that a feasibility study
is being carried out in its joint development of new electric car
designs with Lotus Engineering.
[...]
The study, with input from Lotus Engineerings technical centers
in Hethel, UK , Ann Arbor, Michigan and Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia,
will look at a variety of critical success factors. These cover
several technical issues including the integration of major
components, new motor designs, controllers, batteries and
charging systems. Marketing considerations such as styling,
performance, and features will be studied, as well as
manufacturing process engineering, project timing and costs.
[...]
Copyright © 1996-2006 The Auto Channel.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Cheap talk?
Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
http://voice.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Bruce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What is the difference in charge algorithms that the Trojan
> and US Battery require?
I don't have the email exhange between myself and Nawaz handy,
but it amounted to me contacting him after I noticed my range
declining in a rapid way, and I reported my charge conditions
to him. His response was I wasn't getting to a high enough
finish voltage, or letting them soak long enough at the end
of charge. The conclusion I came to is you have to overcharge
the hell out of them compared to the Trojan's, which have never
had any issues with the charge algorithm I was using. Then
he added a sidenote that usually as part of a sale, an application
engineer reviews the installation and recommends charge curve
modifications. In all of our exchanges previous to then that was
never mentioned, just that the USB's were better and cheaper
than the Trojans. It was implied they were a direct replacement,
and it became very clear after that, they are not.
> Which charger do you use?
A ferro transformer out of a Lester, with an end of charge
detector/timer/controller I built. The USB's may be perfectly
fine if properly charged, but I can't justify replacing the
charger to find out. For those with adjustable chargers, it's
probably a non-issue.
Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[Ref
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/87233
]
I have experience with both the older K and the current N series
Zivan chargers. If either models are not set up correctly, they
will not shut off at the correct pack voltage. That can cause
damage to the pack.
My K and N model Zivan chargers were setup correctly, and thus I
have not had any problems with them. However, I have heard of a
SJEAA Chapter member who had problems with a refurbished charger
that was incorrectly setup/adjusted. It cooked his pack, and
needless to say he was not please to replace his (even when
pack prices were lower than they are now).
Also, if a Zivan charger is set to spec, it will trip/pop some
circuit breakers as some breakers are not to spec (especially
ones made in China).
I found two methods around this:
-When I found a weak breaker, I would use either a lower gauge
extension cord or a long extension cord to put between the
breaker and the charger. In a sense this adds a resistance on
the AC line reducing the AC current drawn.
-The other is to adjust the charger to a lower output current.
This also reduces the amount of AC input current drawn.
The latter is not an easy one-step solution and needs to
performed by a Zivan charger knowledgeable person: when I was
a Zivan Distributor's bench in Sacramento, I saw it was a
three-step adjustment process that had to be repeated
three-times to ensure the settings were correct.
The reason is one adjustment may affect the other settings
(output current, shutoff voltage, etc.) and thus once one was
changed/adjusted, the others had to be rechecked/re-adjusted.
I have not had experience with Delta-Q chargers because Delta-Q
does not offer chargers that would allow me to charge a 132VDC
pack. But I have heard that a Tropica owner has had good
experience using one to charge his 72VDC wet-cell pack.
Given a choice, I would prefer to not purchase another Zivan
charger. They are not power factor corrected, and have the
above stated issues.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All:
While I have not read the entire thread, I have some experience to share.
Darryl said:
.....the voltage applied to a fully charged battery by the Soneil depends on
the model. Not just the nominal voltage, but specific models have
different finishing charge voltages. These range from 14.3 to 14.7
volts for a 12-volt nominal lead-acid battery......
I bought two 24V Soneil #2404 bricks, each charging 1/2 of a 48V pack. When
first installing them, I monitored the charge profile with a WattsUp meter.
It confirmed the cutoff points as stated in the manual, with a few
deviations: 1) The LED switches from amber to green at the end of constant
current charging, NOT at the end of the constant voltage stage. 2) The
constant voltage stage continues for a Looong time, beyond the stated low
current acceptance cutoff.
I installed the chargers, but was disappointed when two of the batteries
(new at the time of charger addition) were cooked until they had less than
30% capacity after only two months. The other two are down to 70%, but that
is tolerable for the usage I give the scoot. I had been leaving them on
float overnight, about 3-4 tines a week through the summer.
Soneil has not answered my e-mail. I contacted the distributor, and he was
also unable to get a response.
Since then, I ran across a front panel shot of an Xantrex charger that may
explain what happened. I detail the event here:
http://visforvoltage.net/forum-topic/batteries-and-chargers/548-why-soneils-cooked-my-batteries
Basically, according to the Xantrex assertions, the Soneil cutoff values are
appropriate for cold (sub 50F) usage. Perhaps it is because Soneil is
Canadian. In Maryland last summer, Xantrex would have been holding the float
at 13.1. I don't think the batteries would have been ruined if this had been
followed.
Mark
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Husted wrote:
I would highly recommend you do NOT run the ADC 9" at
6600 rpms, even in short durations.
What about the WarP 9" motor? Same limits, or is its commutator better?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rick Todd wrote:
So sorry for being a little stupid about this but how would I go about
making a test rack for these cells? Do you use resistance heaters? Light
bulbs? I would like to at least test a couple cells and give it a shot.
First, you need to decide what it is you want to know. Then, you devise
the test setup to provide that information. For example:
Suppose you want to know the cell's amphour capacity at (say) 10 amps,
and how much it varies between cells. You need:
- Load resistor: R = 1.2v/10a = 0.12 ohms, 1.2v x 10a = 12 watts.
- Relay that can switch 10 amps.
- Voltage sensing circuit to turn the relay off when the cell
falls to 1.0 volts. It could be as simple as a transistor with
a pot to set the threshold where it lets the relay drop out.
- A timer to record the discharge time. Could be as simple as an
analog clock that runs off a 1.5v battery
- Operation: set the clock hands to 12:00. Press the relay with
you finger to start the test. The relay will latch on, the load
is connected, and the clock starts counting the time. When the
cell drops to 1.0v, the relay drops out, the clock stops, and
you can calculate the capacity time (Amphours = amps x hours).
Here is a simple circuit (view with a fixed width font):
________/______________________________
| SPST contact | | |
| _| < 100 1.5v _|_
+__|__ relay |_ < ohms clock / |_\
___ 5v coil |_ < \___/
- | | | |
| c| < |
| NPN \|____< 100 ohm pot |
| 2N4401 /| b < V(turnoff) |
| e| | |
|______________|______|_________________|
You do the same sort of thing for each parameter you want to measure.
This is simple enough that you can duplicate it many times, to test many
cells at once.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sparrows had an incorrect charging algorithm and not by-pass
regulators on the batteries. Not the fault of the charger itself. It
did exactly as programmed.
Bill Dube'
At 12:10 PM 2/22/2007, you wrote:
At 07:08 PM 2/21/2007, David (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:
David,
With all due respect for your EV history contributions and list
administrator work, I'm going to call you out to the playground after
school regarding your comments about Zivan chargers! As I said in a post
back in 2005 (below), the K models had problems, but the NG models are rock
solid. They have a three stage algorithm that doesn't beat the life out of
the batteries, or at least not the floodies. Are you thinking of the early
They may possibly work for floodies. Don't use one for AGM's.
Just ask most Corbin Sparrow owners about how the NG3's cook their packs.
(and need a 20A circuit. Not 19.5A, a full 20A - and you had better
have short wiring runs.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I
dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
>
> > Nobody said that an EV is going to be much cheaper in the
> > short run.
>
> Or the long run.
>
My EV's will go twice as far on the same dollar if I drive them 15 mph slower
,,, so the cost is very much up to me ...
,
>
> I'm not even factoring that in right now. Then there's subtle
> things like tires and brakes that only last half as long, the
> chassis gets the shit beaten out of it from all the extra weight,
> requiring twice as often suspension repairs,
ahhhhh that's why your not experancing great saving :-) now my work truck
with 40 golf cart batteries that towes a lawn trailer probable another 1500 lbs
,,, I have never replaced the brakes or done any suspension repair,,, becuse of
the way I drive , no regen just taking my foot off the pebble before the stop ,
My EV work truck saves me more that most as what I do is much better suited
to a EV , lots of starting ( maybe 10/15 time a day between each lawn) lots of
slow driving between each yard on resedencel setting,,, drive to work 8 miles ,
where I can go 40 mph ... If your driving your ev 65mph your saving will be 1/2
what they would be at 50 . Now that I've had the lawn mower converted for over
a year ,, the saving on that is I feel even more .. as it cost me 1 dollar per
yard in gas and the lawn mower gas engines lasted me only 2 or 3 years along
with expencive parts for the engine ( starter motors are $150 and you will
need one or two per engine life , air fil!
ters ,once a week $20) ,,,
I understand a lot of that, but I also
> understand the economic side of it, and I don't believe battery
> EV's are the answer, at least not today. I think it's a bit
> hypocritical to evangelize a mode of transportation that hasn't
> proven itself to be practical.
Its kind of like a Stove in your kitchen ,,, dosn't it just make more sence to
eat out ,,, ? well if you make such a mess when cooking and spill food all over
everthing , if you don't have things planned and have to run to the store for
some thing .yes .. BUT if you are really tring to make it work ,,, then it will
...
>
> EV's can be fun and cool, but in terms of being a solution
> to the national/global problems at hand, they ain't it.
> A step towards a better solution perhaps, but BEV's
> couldn't make it 30 years ago, and they won't today.
The price of gas is what will change all that ,,, as it goes up then your
saving will be more ,,, would you be saying the same thing at $10 a gollen ,,,
o ya it will never be that high right ,,, ,,,
It's
> not like I just hopped in here on EVDL to beat up on EV's,
> I've been at this game a while and have experienced pretty
> much everything associated with them. I started off
> objectively and I think I still am. I hope you see this not
> as an effort to pee in your wheaties but an honest observation
> from someone that's been there, done it, and isn't convinced.
me to but I would say I've ezperienced everything associated with them ,,, I'm
learning all the time and still trying to understand this lead boxs like ...
> Meanwhile, I guess I'll plan on getting another pack, beats
> walking to work or an outright vehicle replacement.
>
with each pack are you getting more miles ,,, and how many miles are you
getting on your pack ,,, I'm getting about 18,000 ,,, on the work truck about 2
years ...
steve clunn
> Mark Brueggemann
> Albuquerque, NM
> S-10 EV
> 50K EV miles since 1997
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What's the best way to determine how much time to put on the timer?
I've been just letting mine charge overnight and unplugging it in the
morning. Probably part of why my pack (which was already 4 years old
and ailing when I got it) is pretty much dead.
Matt
PS - Anybody interested in going in on a pallet of T-125 or T-145s
near Nashville?
On 2/22/07, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Tim,
When batteries age, you need to change the charge profile to compensate.
Also temp correction is needed if you charge in a place where it can change.
ANY charger needs a shutoff on timeout.
It can easily be added in the form of an (enclosed) timer that you can set
for automatic shutoff after a certain nr of hours and which plugs in between
the charger cord and wall socket.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of TiM M
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Charging problems
I have a 144V (24 US145s) truck and am charging with a PFC 20 charger.
Things were good for the first year(~6000 miles). At about 14 months I had a
cell go bad. I replaced it with a new battery and tried to get back to
normal. The problem is the charger stopped shutting off. I've reduced the
final voltage to 173V which is 2.4V per cell. At this setting the charger
usually shuts down if I'm charging at a high enough current. If I try to
charge at say 15 amps, the voltage will rise to the 173V set point and the
limit light illuminates and the timer light starts blinking and the current
will start dropping. Unfortunately the the voltage starts to drop as well
and the limit light goes out and the current goes up, it will stabilize at
about 12 or 13 amps and charge forever if I let it. If I start the charge at
20 to 25 amps it will taper to
15 amps and finish OK. Do I have the voltage set to high? It never acted
like this before.
I need to keep a close eye on things when charging now, once when I set
it to 25 amps, it tapered to 15 amps and came out of the limit and over
charged the crap out of my pack. The truck had the best performance I've
seen, but I hate to think about what I'm did to my pack.
How do I determine the correct finish voltage and get back to a point
of harmony with my truck?
Thanks for the feed back.
TiM
____________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
