EV Digest 6458
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Stop dissing Zivans, was RE: Battery charger recommendation
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: NiMH D size battery closeout
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Charging problems
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: NiMH D size battery closeout
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) speaking of Zivans, qucik question
by brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Stop dissing Zivans, was RE: Battery charger recommendation
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery amps in Uve's EV Calculator
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Arrogant Ignorance
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Stop dissing Zivans, was RE: Battery charger recommendation
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Discovery Chanel Future Car LOOSES all Credability
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Battery load tester
by "John O'Connor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: HD Radio anyone?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Battery load tester
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: "New" motors for the KillaCycle - 2 for sale
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark and All,
While I'm sorry you are disappointed in your
EV, it's your fault for building such an ineff pig, lead
mine, not because EV's are not cost effective.
One can build eff EV very easily as I've
described in detail many times yet no one seems to listen,
instead converting overweight ICE's into massively
overweight unaerodynamic EV's needing twice the EV drive,
battery pack costs while geting 1/2 the range, acceleration.
For instance in your pile of EV parts there
sits a great EV waiting to get out. First lop off that
heavy, non aero cab and bed, replace them with an aero
kitcar body and your range would double, acceleration
increase probably 30% and your battery pack would last
probably twice as many miles due to their much lighter load,
abuse you put on them. Or get the same range with a much
smaller, less costly pack.
We have known for yrs what makes a sucessful
EV, a light, aero glider built as an EV with 50% battery
weight gets you 100 mile range, lower EV drive parts,
chargers and easily will beat an ICE in cost effectiveness.
Yet except for Lee now and I building real
EV's, all I see here are people sinking big bucks in
vehicles that are not very good.
There is no need for better batteries, just
better gliders though I'll be happy if better ones come
along.
You sound like a fat man complaining about it
while stuffing his face with food.
If you all want to build such pigs, go ahead
but don't complain when the bill becomes due.
Though if you look at it, the money spent on
even your type of EV is less than many hobbies, ect. Just
accept that you are building a subpar EV and stop
complaining or build a good one.
My Ewoody was very cost effective, driving it
for 10 yrs for about $1k for everything, building,
registering, tags, electricity, batts, charger, repair,
controller, ect. That's just $100/yr!! While it wasn't the
greatest, it gave me a 30 mile range up to 60 mph at a fuel
cost of $.01/mile!
Just look at controllers, a contactor
controller puts out more power at 1/10th the cost, can be
very smooth, reliable, easily repairable in minutes beside
the road if nessasary, yet everyone has to have e
controllers, then complain about the cost, time/cost to
repair, slow performance!!
I expect my Freedom EV to beat the pants off
of an ICE in cost, performance getting 230mpg cost
equivilent, 150-400mpg energy equivilent depending on the
electric source, based on the Ewoody's consumption which it
should do much better than as more aero, LLR tires, ect.
And with it's 12 T105's, I expect to get 100
mile range and with a removeable gen, unlimited range at
about 100mpg. I expect a very long life from my batts due to
not overloading them, using a good charger. And set up to
tow a trailer carrying 1500lbs so I only need one vehicle
for all my transport needs, local to cross-country ton
carrying large, heavy loads. All it takes is a little
forsight, planning, engineering to solve any EV problem.
I'm too cheap to build an EV that costs more
than an ICE to buy, run, and refuse to do so and why I build
from scratch. It's not rocket science, just basic physics
and economics 101. I expect to be well under $.20/mile total
costs over 5 yrs.
So instead of bashing Ev's, why don't you
bash yourself for building such a pile as it's your fault,
not anyone else's!!
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:37:48 -0800 (PST)
>--- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Is that like saying if NiMH batteries were proven
>> practical that we could actually buy them? Hmmm.
>
>Not sure where you're going with that one.
>
>
>> If it only costs time and energy it only means someone
>> else has a job in recycling them.
>
>So it doesn't matter if there's an economic impact
>associated with that? Who decides when it costs too much?
>
>
>> converting a car from an existing chassis like we're
>> doing keeps one carcas out of the landfill and does not
>> cost to remanufacture;
>
>That's all wonderful for the couple thousand conversions
>out there, but that's not a viable business model. It also
>has no measurable positive impact, other than perception.
>
>
>> Just think if there were that 30/30/30 split
>> There would be junk EV's that would also be
>> cheap to buy and rebuild.
>
>EV chassis don't last forever. Just as it's false economy
>to convert a junk gasser, it would be equally false to
>rebuild a junk EV. If you convert a POS gasser to an EV,
>you end up with a POS EV. EV candidate ICE gliders still
>have parts value, it's not like if the ICE fails it gets
>hauled to a pit somewhere to be buried. Even as a wreck or
>when used up, it's shredded and at least some is recycled.
>Used to be you could go to a junkyard and see acres and
>acres of scrap cars. No more. Just because you convert a
>gasser to an EV doesn't necessarily mean you diverted it
>from a landfill, you've just diverted it from being parted
>out and dispersed into the used parts market, to be used on
>other ICE's.
>
>
>> > but BEV's couldn't make it 30 years ago,
>> > and they won't today.
>>
>> They could have though.
>
>Really? So what did all of those *dozens* of entrepreneurs
>and car companies all do wrong? They had a common theme-
>they tried selling cars not enough people wanted. The
>most recent offerings like the RAV4, Ranger, EV1, etc were
>all artificially subsidized and still were not a mass
>consumer vehicle. In my opinion the EV1 was an awesome
>car but it was a niche market vehicle. It wasn't
>something GM wanted to support, and I don't blame them.
>
>Tesla Motors announced this week they're building a plant
>here in Albuquerque. It'll be interesting to see how that
>goes. At $50K a pop, they're still targeting a niche
>market.
>
>
>> What if right now 99% of the vehicles on the road were
>electric.
>
>We would be driving expensive, short range vehicles, there
>would be issues with power demand on the grid, and all the
>tree huggers would be up in arms about all the nuke or coal
>plants that would have to be built to satisfy the demand.
>There would still be commute time gridlock and farmland
>would continue to be turned to freeways. Costs of goods
>and services would rise to offset the high overhead of
>transportation, and the standard of living would likely
>decline as a consequence. That might happen anyway as
>fossil fuel costs rise, but I'm not sure you can head that
>off. It would have to be a pretty significant battery
>breakthrough, and pretty soon, to get it to market in
>time.
>
>Mark Brueggemann
>Albuquerque, NM
>S-10 EV
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just out of curiousity do you have any idea what flaw they put into
their algorithm?
Danny
Bill Dube wrote:
Sparrows had an incorrect charging algorithm and not by-pass
regulators on the batteries. Not the fault of the charger itself. It
did exactly as programmed.
Bill Dube'
At 12:10 PM 2/22/2007, you wrote:
At 07:08 PM 2/21/2007, David (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:
David,
With all due respect for your EV history contributions and list
administrator work, I'm going to call you out to the playground after
school regarding your comments about Zivan chargers! As I said in a
post
back in 2005 (below), the K models had problems, but the NG models
are rock
solid. They have a three stage algorithm that doesn't beat the life
out of
the batteries, or at least not the floodies. Are you thinking of the
early
They may possibly work for floodies. Don't use one for AGM's.
Just ask most Corbin Sparrow owners about how the NG3's cook their
packs.
(and need a 20A circuit. Not 19.5A, a full 20A - and you had better
have short wiring runs.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Problem: It will not measure amp hour capacity accurately, because you need
a constant current.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: NiMH D size battery closeout
First, you need to decide what it is you want to know. Then, you devise
the test setup to provide that information. For example:
Suppose you want to know the cell's amphour capacity at (say) 10 amps, and
how much it varies between cells. You need:
- Load resistor: R = 1.2v/10a = 0.12 ohms, 1.2v x 10a = 12
watts.......................
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ooooo!
It looks like your pack is dieing and fast.
You are playing with thermal runaway on every charge cycle.
I think your pack is toast, because your taper back current is way to high
for these batteries.
This a sign of tired plates and separators.
I would dial down your peak voltage to keep the thermal run away issue from
being a hazard.
The problem with this is you need to pound the batteries hard to get the
Spec gravity up. And doing so adds more hurt to the cells.
Also.. instead of using the voltage peak setting to govern the length of the
charge. I would use the Time of charge feature, This is Dip Sw #2. It starts
the timer at power up, and terminates charging Weather the pack is up to
voltage or not. The timer can be set up to about 2.5 hours. This is setting
the Timer select to about 2:30 or 12'O'clock straight up.
This at least gives you max time to shut off control. If you need more time
than 2.5 hours , I can tell you how to adjust the clock circuit for up to 8
hours of charge time.
Again.. I truly think it's time for new Lead.
And we will be adding a voltage latch enable feature on Rev 8 controller
PCBs. This will trap the timer on at any peak voltage point met.
Ah the fun of keeping old tired Lead alive a bit longer.
I did once did a Equalize cycle right about where you are.. and it simply
killed the ... Old 145s in a hurry.
I have been AGM ever since.
I bet the pack gets pretty warm when you have a 15 amp maintain current.
How's the water consumption?? Pretty high I bet.
Please be careful.... this is where you can have a real over charge
issue.... there is no battery over temp setting on the chargers.. that comes
on Regs...
Been there done that...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "TiM M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 10:38 PM
Subject: Charging problems
> I have a 144V (24 US145s) truck and am charging
> with a PFC 20 charger. Things were good for the first
> year(~6000 miles). At about 14 months I had a cell go
> bad. I replaced it with a new battery and tried to get
> back to normal. The problem is the charger stopped
> shutting off. I've reduced the final voltage to 173V
> which is 2.4V per cell. At this setting the charger
> usually shuts down if I'm charging at a high enough
> current. If I try to charge at say 15 amps, the
> voltage will rise to the 173V set point and the limit
> light illuminates and the timer light starts blinking
> and the current will start dropping. Unfortunately the
> the voltage starts to drop as well and the limit light
> goes out and the current goes up, it will stabilize at
> about 12 or 13 amps and charge forever if I let it. If
> I start the charge at 20 to 25 amps it will taper to
> 15 amps and finish OK. Do I have the voltage set to
> high? It never acted like this before.
> I need to keep a close eye on things when
> charging now, once when I set it to 25 amps, it
> tapered to 15 amps and came out of the limit and over
> charged the crap out of my pack. The truck had the
> best performance I've seen, but I hate to think about
> what I'm did to my pack.
> How do I determine the correct finish voltage and
> get back to a point of harmony with my truck?
>
> Thanks for the feed back.
>
> TiM
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
> in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
> http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I find this discussion interesting. Continue.
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:09 PM
Subject: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
Hi Mark and All,
While I'm sorry you are disappointed in your
EV, it's your fault for building such an ineff pig, lead
mine, not because EV's are not cost effective.
One can build eff EV very easily as I've
described in detail many times yet no one seems to listen,
instead converting overweight ICE's into massively
overweight unaerodynamic EV's needing twice the EV drive,
battery pack costs while geting 1/2 the range,
acceleration...........................
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dmitri,
I is not difficult to build a constant current source/sink, but to get an
approximate value to see which battery is up to spec and which one is not,
the simple resistor is more than sufficient, even if the current drops a bit
with slowly falling voltage.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dmitri
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:21 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: NiMH D size battery closeout
Problem: It will not measure amp hour capacity accurately, because you need
a constant current.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: NiMH D size battery closeout
> First, you need to decide what it is you want to know. Then, you devise
> the test setup to provide that information. For example:
>
> Suppose you want to know the cell's amphour capacity at (say) 10 amps, and
> how much it varies between cells. You need:
>
> - Load resistor: R = 1.2v/10a = 0.12 ohms, 1.2v x 10a = 12
> watts.......................
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
greetings all,
this discussion about Zivans has reminded me of
something. I ordered a NG3 maybe about a yr ago
already. the documentation that came with it states
that it is set up for a batt pack with an AH rating of
64 but the data sheet for my batt's state they have a
20hr capacity of 94AH. is this because they are Gel
cells or something or should it be 94AH?
Thanks for your time
Brian B.
81' Bradley GT2
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never Miss an Email
Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started!
http://mobile.yahoo.com/services?promote=mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea.. they assumed all the Optimas were perfect.. and they are in the Lab at
the factory.
Not so in the real world.
And the 2 amps for 30 minutes no limit is just about the best way to Kill a
Yt stack that I know of.
Oh and they do this EVERY cycle... once a month would be about right.
You see single batteries over 17.5 volts for much of the last 30 minutes.
Gassing happens at a LOT less than that!. Venting happens up there.
So.. if you get Greg to excise that part of the code.. And use the main 14.8
volt limit and then just a 30 minute time out from there, The Yts last about
what they should.
Adding Regs of course limits this, having the charger back off if any
battery gets in trouble, eliminates the risk of any over charge event. At
the cost of some depth of cycle. But not much as far as I can tell.
So the new Zivans without the 2 amps for 30 minutes on a 13 Yt stack is a
good improvment.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Stop dissing Zivans, was RE: Battery charger recommendation
> Just out of curiousity do you have any idea what flaw they put into
> their algorithm?
>
> Danny
>
> Bill Dube wrote:
>
> > Sparrows had an incorrect charging algorithm and not by-pass
> > regulators on the batteries. Not the fault of the charger itself. It
> > did exactly as programmed.
> >
> > Bill Dube'
> >
> > At 12:10 PM 2/22/2007, you wrote:
> >
> >> At 07:08 PM 2/21/2007, David (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:
> >>
> >>> David,
> >>> With all due respect for your EV history contributions and list
> >>> administrator work, I'm going to call you out to the playground after
> >>> school regarding your comments about Zivan chargers! As I said in a
> >>> post
> >>> back in 2005 (below), the K models had problems, but the NG models
> >>> are rock
> >>> solid. They have a three stage algorithm that doesn't beat the life
> >>> out of
> >>> the batteries, or at least not the floodies. Are you thinking of the
> >>> early
> >>
> >>
> >> They may possibly work for floodies. Don't use one for AGM's.
> >> Just ask most Corbin Sparrow owners about how the NG3's cook their
> >> packs.
> >> (and need a 20A circuit. Not 19.5A, a full 20A - and you had better
> >> have short wiring runs.)
> >>
> >> --
> >> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> >> http://www.CasaDelGato.com
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:09:20 -0500
Hi Mark and All,
While I'm sorry you are disappointed in your
EV, it's your fault for building such an ineff pig, lead
mine, not because EV's are not cost effective.
One can build eff EV very easily as I've
described in detail many times yet no one seems to listen,
instead converting overweight ICE's into massively
overweight unaerodynamic EV's needing twice the EV drive,
battery pack costs while geting 1/2 the range, acceleration.
Jerry,
I enjoy reading your posts, but Mark made some very valid points from real
world experience which cannot be written off as just stupidity on his part.
I also don't believe your assertion that building an effecient EV is easy.
I have been reading about your Freedom EV project for quite a while now, and
none of it has sounded easy. If it's so easy, why was it half finished on a
trailer at the BBB event? I know you would have loved to have it finished
before then. How long have you been working on it (isn't it a multiyear
project now), and how many hours have you and others put into it? I admire
you for doing it, but to claim that it has been easy is crazy talk.
I understand you built the ewoody before that, but as I recall you are
leveraging skills that you have honed over years of hard work in the boat
building industry and even at that it doesn't seem easy to me.
I know you thought the ewoody was cool and claim the girls loved it, and I
have never seen it in person, but from the pictures I have seen of it I'll
bet more people than not would be embarrassed to drive it. I think you will
find the same reaction to your Freedom EV. They are both radically
different from the norm, and I think something that a lot of people will not
be willing to accept.
Building any kind of EV is hard work, and building one that meets most
peoples speed, range, comfort, budget and style requirements is even harder
yet.
damon
_________________________________________________________________
Want a degree but can't afford to quit? Top school degrees online - in as
fast as 1 year
http://forms.nextag.com/goto.jsp?url=/serv/main/buyer/education.jsp?doSearch=n&tm=y&search=education_text_links_88_h288c&s=4079&p=5116
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Lee, all
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jim Husted wrote:
> > I would highly recommend you do NOT run the ADC 9"
> at
> > 6600 rpms, even in short durations.
>
> What about the WarP 9" motor? Same limits, or is its
> commutator better?
Let's ask Jeff Shanab, lmao!!
Actually the difference between the Warp9 and the ADC9
is pretty small. The Warp has the same bar count but
has a slightly longer and a tad larger diameter comm.
>From the ones I've seen they use a good comm with GE
numbers on it. IMO I doubt there is any real plus or
minus on their RPM limit. As you know Lee everything
has it's pro's and con's. A larger comm allows some
good properties but probably makes it just slightly
more prone to a lower RPM limit.
>From my sources I'm told that the only commutator
plant left here in the states is Toledo Commutator.
ADC's comm's are made in France, I don't know where
GE's are made but I know they have plants in Mexico.
Regardless, the day of good old steel comm's is gone,
at least as far as these sized motors go.
Anyway I didn't want to freak anyone out about blowing
up their motors, just a little caution that they will.
It truly breaks my heart when I hear of those that
blow up perfectly good motors.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
even my wife (a very non techie type med records keeper ) caught the fact that
ALL the future cars are in PRODUCTION TODAY in low volumes but definitely not
future rather present cars!!
----- Original Message -----
From: MIKE WILLMON<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 12:50 PM
Subject: RE: Arrogant Ignorance
It'll be on again Saturday morning :-)
>Cor van de Water wrote:
> .... Too bad I missed
> the show.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HEY stop the personal bashing . the guy said he could not afford the ev live
style . ev's are not for everyone . while the work part is not hard for me
remember I am an electrician !!!~! and I enjoy electrical work of all kinds
----- Original Message -----
From: damon henry<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:06 PM
Subject: RE: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
>From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
>Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>Subject: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:09:20 -0500
>
>
> Hi Mark and All,
>
> While I'm sorry you are disappointed in your
>EV, it's your fault for building such an ineff pig, lead
>mine, not because EV's are not cost effective.
> One can build eff EV very easily as I've
>described in detail many times yet no one seems to listen,
>instead converting overweight ICE's into massively
>overweight unaerodynamic EV's needing twice the EV drive,
>battery pack costs while geting 1/2 the range, acceleration.
Jerry,
I enjoy reading your posts, but Mark made some very valid points from real
world experience which cannot be written off as just stupidity on his part.
I also don't believe your assertion that building an effecient EV is easy.
I have been reading about your Freedom EV project for quite a while now, and
none of it has sounded easy. If it's so easy, why was it half finished on a
trailer at the BBB event? I know you would have loved to have it finished
before then. How long have you been working on it (isn't it a multiyear
project now), and how many hours have you and others put into it? I admire
you for doing it, but to claim that it has been easy is crazy talk.
I understand you built the ewoody before that, but as I recall you are
leveraging skills that you have honed over years of hard work in the boat
building industry and even at that it doesn't seem easy to me.
I know you thought the ewoody was cool and claim the girls loved it, and I
have never seen it in person, but from the pictures I have seen of it I'll
bet more people than not would be embarrassed to drive it. I think you will
find the same reaction to your Freedom EV. They are both radically
different from the norm, and I think something that a lot of people will not
be willing to accept.
Building any kind of EV is hard work, and building one that meets most
peoples speed, range, comfort, budget and style requirements is even harder
yet.
damon
_________________________________________________________________
Want a degree but can't afford to quit? Top school degrees online - in as
fast as 1 year
http://forms.nextag.com/goto.jsp?url=/serv/main/buyer/education.jsp?doSearch=n&tm=y&search=education_text_links_88_h288c&s=4079&p=5116<http://forms.nextag.com/goto.jsp?url=/serv/main/buyer/education.jsp?doSearch=n&tm=y&search=education_text_links_88_h288c&s=4079&p=5116>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, if you proportion the length of the 2 amp finish charge
with the duration of the bulk charge, it works perfectly. This is
what Zivan does normally.
You should overcharge about 7%.
You can prevent the batteries from losing any water, _OR_
you can prevent them from sulfating the negative plate (and losing
capacity quickly.) You must choose.
If you don't overcharge by 7%, you will sulfate the negative
plates and you will lose capacity on every cycle. If you do
overcharge by 7%, you will (nearly) fully charge the negative plate,
but you will lose some water doing it. Death by water loss will occur
at about the same time as death by paste degradation.
You can't overcharge just "once per month". If you do, you
will build up sulfation on each cycle that will be impossible to
remove. You will remove only a portion of it on the monthly
overcharge. Capacity will decline every month. Early death by
sulfation will be the result. You will have plenty of water, though. :-)
Bill Dube'
At 04:04 PM 2/22/2007, you wrote:
Yea.. they assumed all the Optimas were perfect.. and they are in the Lab at
the factory.
Not so in the real world.
And the 2 amps for 30 minutes no limit is just about the best way to Kill a
Yt stack that I know of.
Oh and they do this EVERY cycle... once a month would be about right.
You see single batteries over 17.5 volts for much of the last 30 minutes.
Gassing happens at a LOT less than that!. Venting happens up there.
So.. if you get Greg to excise that part of the code.. And use the main 14.8
volt limit and then just a 30 minute time out from there, The Yts last about
what they should.
Adding Regs of course limits this, having the charger back off if any
battery gets in trouble, eliminates the risk of any over charge event. At
the cost of some depth of cycle. But not much as far as I can tell.
So the new Zivans without the 2 amps for 30 minutes on a 13 Yt stack is a
good improvment.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Stop dissing Zivans, was RE: Battery charger recommendation
> Just out of curiousity do you have any idea what flaw they put into
> their algorithm?
>
> Danny
>
> Bill Dube wrote:
>
> > Sparrows had an incorrect charging algorithm and not by-pass
> > regulators on the batteries. Not the fault of the charger itself. It
> > did exactly as programmed.
> >
> > Bill Dube'
> >
> > At 12:10 PM 2/22/2007, you wrote:
> >
> >> At 07:08 PM 2/21/2007, David (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:
> >>
> >>> David,
> >>> With all due respect for your EV history contributions and list
> >>> administrator work, I'm going to call you out to the playground after
> >>> school regarding your comments about Zivan chargers! As I said in a
> >>> post
> >>> back in 2005 (below), the K models had problems, but the NG models
> >>> are rock
> >>> solid. They have a three stage algorithm that doesn't beat the life
> >>> out of
> >>> the batteries, or at least not the floodies. Are you thinking of the
> >>> early
> >>
> >>
> >> They may possibly work for floodies. Don't use one for AGM's.
> >> Just ask most Corbin Sparrow owners about how the NG3's cook their
> >> packs.
> >> (and need a 20A circuit. Not 19.5A, a full 20A - and you had better
> >> have short wiring runs.)
> >>
> >> --
> >> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> >> http://www.CasaDelGato.com
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is what I think of the Discovery Channel's series on
FUTURE CAR...( 3rd Episode)
For an even MORE eloquent dissertation and critique, I point you to the
NEW SEVA e-mail archives,( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seva_maillist)
where our Web Guy Ryan, really set the record straight, on Fool Cells
and Air Cars with much excelent references. This episode spent WAY too
much time on...fool cells and air cars...
If you FEEL strongly about this Mis-Information, please write your own
comments to Discovery Channel at:
http://extweb.discovery.com/ViewerRelations
-----------------------------
Dear Discovery Channel, Future Car:
Generally speaking, one of the only reasons we have acquired
Cable TV from our local COMCAST provider in Seattle is to watch
And enjoy the Discovery Channel.
Having been the President of the local Electric Auto Association
Chapter for 25 years, and a technical instructor in this field, I found
Several items on the 3rd episode totally incredulous.
It is common knowledge that Fuel Cells ( fool cells ) except for the
Reduction in pollution are not much better than the example you
Gave in the episode of 25% for Gas Powered Infernal Combustion
Engines.. For it takes $4. of electricity to hydrolyze $2. of H2. Then
Once running this through a PEM Fuel Cell, will give you $1. of
Electricity for use in the EV Drive Train… These irrefutable facts
Were not brought out.
But the segment on the French Air Car, really blew away all credibility.
To just mention in passing that “ it does take energy to Compress the Air.”
Is hardly touching the surface of the inefficiency of such a drive train.
Inherently, the piston engine has all the FRICTION of a gas car! And
The comment about creating compressed air while driving is absolutely
Ludicrous…
I only hope that the up-coming PBS NOVA special on Future Cars
Can set the records straight.
Sincerely:
Steven S. Lough
President: Seattle EV Association.
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to all that responded.
On Feb 21, 2007, at 11:31 PM, Mark Brueggemann wrote:
I'm kinda rusty at this but I'll give it a shot:
--- John O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>
What is the max voltage you can do this with in relative safety?
Power would the the safety thing, I would think. One 6V flooded
will heat a 5gal bucket fairly warm, so if you're testing a big
pack you will have to keep a fresh supply of cool water to the
load wire. Common sense voltage safety limits you to 48V.
Unfortunately when it comes to this sort of stuff "I have little, if
any, common sense", so thanks for answering.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> My EV's will go twice as far on the same dollar if I drive
> them 15 mph slower ,,, so the cost is very much up to me ...
Much of the same truth exists for most modes of transport -- wind
resistance and CD aren't significantly affected by what's under the
hood, except by weight when climbing hills, and batteries struggle with
that even worse than other forms of motivation.
> I have never replaced the brakes or done any suspension
> repair,,, becuse of the way I drive, no regen just taking
> my foot off the pebble before the stop ...
Again, it seems that this style of conservative driving would have
similar value, regardless of your mode of propulsion.
> Now that I've had the lawn mower converted for over a year ,,
> the saving on that is I feel even more .. as it cost me 1
> dollar per yard in gas and the lawn mower gas engines lasted
> me only 2 or 3 years along with expencive parts for the engine
> ( starter motors are $150 and you will need one or two per
> engine life , air filters ,once a week $20) ,,,
The economy logic is much simpler for mowers! I haven't used my ICE
mower in years -- between the rechargeable and cord-powered E-mowers, I
don't expect to go back any time soon!
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On our 1997 Solectria Force, the motor cables are carefully shielded.
Each of the three cables has a braided shield over it; where the 3
cables go through an (Anderson?) connector, there is a spiffy braided
sleeve that zips on around the entire connector.
I do find the radio pretty useless, but use the car in a rural area
where reception is weak to start. This is with the radio/casette player
that came with the car - I have vague plans to try a better unit. And
then perhaps look at the DC/DC noise and try to filter?
Cor van de Water wrote:
If your noise is related to how deep the accelerator is depressed, then I
guess it is the controller that sends pulses to the motor - shielding motor
cabling may solve this problem.
If the noise is present constantly and possibly only depend on activating
lights/wipers and other 12V loads, then it may be your DC/DC converter
generating a disturbance that reaches the radio, either though the air or
via the 12V wiring, so you may need to filter the 12V to get rid of that.
Hope this helps, let us know if you have more details.
Todd Martin wrote:
I've been living with extra static compared to an ICE car while listening to
the radio in my EV. Anyone have any experience with HD radio or Sirius / XM
radio on their EV?
If so, I'm curious as to the quality of the reception, dropouts, and such.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Todd Martin
1997 Solectria Force.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: damon henry<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:06 PM
> Subject: RE: EV bashing, RE: T-105 Sitcker Shock
> Building any kind of EV is hard work
Not a little one <smile>... Parts off the shelf really. Just need
to assemble into a frame. Bicycle tech mostly. After five years and
well over 10K Km with an EV I'm hoping to build my next vehicle based
on the experience. I have the motor (hub wheel motor) and a controller
already, quality rubber from the Dutch, and am shopping for a battery
pack now. Kinda leaning towards 16lbs of LiFePO4, a 48v 10Ah pack, as
seen here with charger and BMS (yah, my power needs are small, and it's
a hybrid with exercise a built-in option):
http://www.powerstream.com/LLL.htm
>, and building one that meets most peoples speed,
Like, getting across town faster than average?
This thing about a vehicle meeting *most* peoples needs. That I'm not
sure about. I kinda hope Jerry sells Freedom EVs to one hundredth of
one percent of all auto buyers in North America... Wouldn't that be
considered a huge success, without meeting *most* peoples (buyers)
needs?
Personally, I'd be happy selling only twice as many EVs as there are
bicycles sold in NA each year :)
> range,
Gets me to work OK. Shopping, playing too. I'm urban, so I have lots
of transport options. The EV is just my favourite and cheapest option.
>comfort,
More comfortable than the Victorian pedal bicycle? And safer? And
much, much safer for my fellow travellers around me?
> budget
My first EV paid for itself in the first five months that I stopped
paying public transit.
> and style requirements is even harder yet.
> damon
How true! Maddening really, how styles come and go. Still wondering
when I can drag out the penny-loafers again... I like to think that
EVs are coming back in style, and this time for good. Both the tech and
the social context are changing and I suspect the tech will only get
better.
And speaking of styles and social context and perceptions, I like the
EWoody? It's getting hard to find drive-in theaters any more in these
parts, but once upon a time the built-in double bed would have made for
far better... errrr viewing <smile>
tks
Lock
Toronto
human-electric hybrid pedestrian
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
found this on e bay will it help ? these work well on the batteries at work
t125's on cushman scooters
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/ebaylSAPl.dll?viewitem&item=22085138550&ssPageName=ADME.B.EF:US:11
----- Original Message -----
From: John O'Connor<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu<mailto:ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: Battery load tester
Thanks to all that responded.
On Feb 21, 2007, at 11:31 PM, Mark Brueggemann wrote:
> I'm kinda rusty at this but I'll give it a shot:
> --- John O'Connor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
<snip>
>> What is the max voltage you can do this with in relative safety?
> Power would the the safety thing, I would think. One 6V flooded
> will heat a 5gal bucket fairly warm, so if you're testing a big
> pack you will have to keep a fresh supply of cool water to the
> load wire. Common sense voltage safety limits you to 48V.
Unfortunately when it comes to this sort of stuff "I have little, if
any, common sense", so thanks for answering.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Damon
You know I try my best not to price myself out of a
job so to speak but I also know how much time it takes
me to do what I call throwing a little love on a motor
(I know Wayland loves it when I talk like that lol).
Honestly, I couldn't afford a Hi-Torque motor if "I"
wasn't Hi-Torque (lol) but then I can't afford a
Rudman charger or a Zilla either so I'm not laughing
my way to the bank here. I actually make less on a
custom motor than I do a lift motor and in fact just a
standard build on a 6.7" motor runs $395.00 dealer
cost forklift wise. Now I probably have around 15
hours shop time into each of them plus some small
parts costs even though they were new.
Not to toot my horn but that's 15 hours Jim Husted
time so I'm doubting it could be done faster, lmao.
One of these motors was in fact a Wayland motor that
John actually just gave to Shawn being Shawn only had
one to start with. You know, I don't think Wayland is
truly recognized for how much he does for the EV
community. The amount of time, money, and work it
took to buy up 32 motors and then sell them for 125.00
surely wasn't in "his" best interest, lol.
Anyway I wouldn't call Waylands deal something
everyone should hope to expect.
Anyway I wasn't upset about the post just thought I'd
put some insight on the other side of the coin. To be
honest I'm courious how this will unfold being my
weakest skill would be in my marketing. To be honest
I thought Bill was pretty happy with his motors I sent
him but I razzberried your 125.00 cost, lmao 8^P
Tell you what Damon if you're EVer in my neck of the
woods come put a day or two at the shop and we'll
build you a motor and we'll see what you want for it,
LMAO! I got an old core that's got your name on it,
you just better bring your grubbies. Just to prove a
point I'm gonna grab a core and paint your name on it
and display it till you take me up on it, hehe!!!
I will hold it and squeeze it and call it Damon
EVeryday, LMAO!!
Had fun
Cya
Jim Husted
--- damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm not sure how much the Jim Husted magic costs,
> but stock these motors
> have been seen for a lot less, probably because John
> Wayland bought a lot of
> about 32 of these a couple of years ago and spread
> them around at his cost
> of $125 each. I got one for that price then picked
> up another in trade for
> some old NiCads I had laying around. For racing
> these motors might be a
> bargain, but for just building a street motorcycle,
> probably not.
>
> damon
>
>
> >From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> >Subject: RE: "New" motors for the KillaCycle - 2
> for sale
> >Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:17:49 -0700
> >
> >The "Buy it now" price of $750 is super bargain.
> These motors should sell
> >quickly. Without that upper limit, I would have
> expected these motors to go
> >for about $1,000 each.
> >
> >Bill Dube'
> >
> >At 09:13 PM 2/21/2007, you wrote:
> >>Last fall Jim Husted took 2 ADC 6.7" Tropica
> motors and re-worked them for
> >>me for a drag bike I was going to build that was
> to have a dual-motor
> >>setup.
> >>He Kevlar banded the comms, advanced them, moved
> the temp sensor to the
> >>brush holder and added solid copper brush leads,
> and more - the same mods
> >>he
> >>has since done to Bill's Killacycle motors. These
> motors are pure works of
> >>art. To echo the words of John, Bill and others,
> Jim is THE man when it
> >>comes to motors.
> >>
> >>Unfortunately, for several reasons, the bike
> project is not going to be. I
> >>am selling the bike frame and parts and after
> talking with Jim tonight, I
> >>have listed the motors on eBay for sale. There are
> lots of pictures and
> >>details of the motors on the listing. If anyone is
> interested or has any
> >>questions please let me know.
> >>
> >>The listings are:
> >>
>
>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230095715956
> >>
>
>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230095716902
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>
> >>Shawn Waggoner
> >>561-543-9223
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Want a degree but can't afford to quit? Top school
> degrees online - in as
> fast as 1 year
>
http://forms.nextag.com/goto.jsp?url=/serv/main/buyer/education.jsp?doSearch=n&tm=y&search=education_text_links_88_h288c&s=4079&p=5116
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
--- End Message ---
