EV Digest 6553
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV space suit (was BugE again)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV space suit
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) wall to road efficiency
by "Al" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: wall to road efficiency
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: wall to road efficiency
by Mark Brueggemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EV data aquisition
by "Al" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: wall to road efficiency
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Ways to turn on a contactor with a Basic Stamp
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Changes: less us vs them, more af diversity attention
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: EV data aquisition
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV space suit (was BugE again)
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: distributed charging and equalizing
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Custom windshield
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Custom windshield
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Lee's BMS?
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 640hp Mini (BMW) converted by PML and partners .. UK
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: State by State EV Incentives and Regulations?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Ways to turn on a contactor with a Basic Stamp
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Lee Hart Battery balancer mail thread
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: distributed charging and equalizing
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: [EV] Re: distributed charging and equalizing
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
You had a good idea right up until you mention "Peltiers". Peltiers are
just about worthless in this application. Their efficiency is FAR too low,
as is their heat transfer capabilities.
I don't think it would take that much ice water to effectively cool the
seat. You could maybe use some kind of modified refridgerator that made
ice when you were plugged in. Or perhaps one of those storage systems
that use heated ammonia(?).
> Some auto manufacturers are now offering 'cooling seat' options. Perhaps
> EV'ers could replicate the effect with a mess of peltiers stuck to the
> back
> of a seat.
>
> Then again, except for extreme heat, just having a ventilated back and
> fans
> blowing could make a huge dent in comfort.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2007 7:43 PM
> Subject: EV space suit (was BugE again)
>
>
>>> With one key distinction: weather protection - sort of.
>>
>> Here's a stupid question - sort of. :-)
>>
>> Somewhere I saw a photo of one of the NASA astronauts all suited up in
>> his
>> space suit, complete with the portable battery operated air conditioner
>> 'suitcase' that they carry. He was riding a motorcycle. :-)
>>
>> Since then, I've always wondered why someone hasn't built a terrestrial
>> version of a space suit that provides environmental protection, air
>> conditioning, communications, and even a drink and a light snack :-)
>>
>> Yes, they are heavy and it takes power to run them. But, if you're
>> riding
>> a motorcycle, you're sitting down and right on the power source. Same is
>> true for driving a car -- instead of air-conditioning the whole car,
>> just
>> air condition the driver.
>>
>> Think of it as a deluxe version of a nomex "cold suit" that race car
>> drivers use, with little tubes circulating water from an ice chest.
>>
>> Couldn't this get the power consumption needed to make the driver
>> comfortable a lot lower?
>> --
>> Lee Hart
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.10/720 - Release Date:
>> 3/12/2007
>> 7:19 PM
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apropos of not very much dept:
In the ( so-called) winter in So Cal I use an electric vest on my MC. It really helps keep the core temp up and pulls
very little current. Snowmobilers have something similar. In the summer I sweat in a full suit. (If I get my EV car off
paper, it will be topless and bodyless in phase 1, so I may need that vest. )
I believe that Nascar drivers used an icechest with a pump that circulates ice water through tubes in their driving
suit. Of course they don't care about weight. Probably easier to start wearing shorts and a t-shirt all the time.
JF
Mark Hastings wrote:
It did work a little better with ice packs while
they'd last.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I must say that after following this list for awhile there appears to be
nothing that hasn't already been tried.
Anyway, on to my question. Early results with my conversion are a bit
disappointing. I have read numbers like 3 to 5 miles per kwh. I am only getting
2 miles per kwh.
If I run 30 miles, it takes about 15kwh to recharge. So at $.15 per kwh it cost
me $2.25 for 30 miles. Nothing to brag about for sure. I do lean on the pedal
pretty hard so as not to annoy the "get out of my way" ICE drivers. Generally
level ground with some starts and stops. I don't have my data aquisition system
going yet, so I can't give you alot of hard numbers other than to say that
cruising amps seem reasonable, 125 to 150 at 45mph. Comments?
Thanks, Al
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are up at 500 watt hours per mile.. this is more than my race prepped Ev
gets with wide tires and a bad alignment.
What are you measuring wall watts with???
What kind of charger are you using?? My PFC chargers are in the high 80s to
low 90% eff wall to DC battery leads.
You running power seems to be twice what it should be.
Rich Rudman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manzanita Micro
360-297-7383,
Cell 360-620-6266
Production shop 360-297-1660
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 10:24 AM
Subject: wall to road efficiency
> I must say that after following this list for awhile there appears to be
nothing that hasn't already been tried.
>
> Anyway, on to my question. Early results with my conversion are a bit
disappointing. I have read numbers like 3 to 5 miles per kwh. I am only
getting 2 miles per kwh.
> If I run 30 miles, it takes about 15kwh to recharge. So at $.15 per kwh it
cost me $2.25 for 30 miles. Nothing to brag about for sure. I do lean on the
pedal pretty hard so as not to annoy the "get out of my way" ICE drivers.
Generally level ground with some starts and stops. I don't have my data
aquisition system going yet, so I can't give you alot of hard numbers other
than to say that cruising amps seem reasonable, 125 to 150 at 45mph.
Comments?
>
> Thanks, Al
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Al <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Early results with my conversion are a bit
> disappointing. I am only getting 2 miles per kwh.
...
> at $.15 per kwh it cost me $2.25 for 30 miles.
My S-10 gets approximately 530-550Wh/mi wall to wheels.
Not sure what your conversion is but if it's a typical
street vehicle and not optimized for lightness, it
sounds like your findings are in the ballpark. Factor
in your cost per mile on batteries, and you'll be
doubly disappointed. 'bout all you can do is optimize
what you have (LRR tires, blocked grill, front end alignment,
unecessary weight shedding, etc) and it is what it is.
Mark "EV Basher" Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is anyone else running an onboard PC with a data aquisition board? I plan on
running such a system to track and display every possible parameter.
The biggest headache appears to be building the interfaces. I know they have to
be isolated, will probably use the Texas Instruments ISO124 amps
I would imagine I would sample motor voltage across the B+ and M- terminals on
the controller and motor current in the lead from M- to the motor.
As these signals are switching at 15khz, do they need to be low pass filtered
or does the motor "smooth" things out?
Also, can I use the volt/amps numbers to integrate total kwh used and
instantanious hp etc?
Thanks guys, Al
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Al wrote:
> Anyway, on to my question. Early results with my conversion
> are a bit disappointing. I have read numbers like 3 to 5
> miles per kwh. I am only getting 2 miles per kwh.
> If I run 30 miles, it takes about 15kwh to recharge.
Most people quote battery-to-wheels consumption, not wall-to-wheels, so
200-300Wh/mi is usually referring to energy consumed from the battery.
When measuring from the wall, you are including the charger efficiency
and charge efficiency of the batteries as well, so the energy
consumption will appear higher.
What is your vehicle, how heavy is it, what voltage is your drivetrain,
and can you determine the Wh/mi consumption from the battery? This sort
of information would help in identifying if your energy consumption
seems out of line for your vehicle.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am looking for ways to turn on and off contactors with a Basic Stamp. The
contactors I am working with have 24 volt coils. The contactors draw ~2
amps at 24 volts. I'm sure there are lots of options to choose from and
some pitfalls to avoid.
Any comments would be appreciated, besides of course, telling me to use a
PIC instead of a Basic Stamp :-)
thanks
Damon
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--- Begin Message ---
Editor's comments [IMHO]:
As I sieve through the newswires I pay for to bring you what
I find, I am seeing another media trend change. In the early
1990's EV newswire pieces were more of "those wacky Electric
things" verses a 'real car".
Jumping to the late 90's when hybrids were being sold and seen
on U.S. roads (pre-gas price gouging days) hybrid newswire
pieces were "those weird looking hybrid things", and EV newswire
pieces were far and few between because automakers stopped EV
production.
nEV sales were just starting up, and were not legal on as many
city streets as they are today. I changed my EV List POSTs to
include nEVs and hybrids because EV List member discussions
were of the opinion that what is developed by nEV and hybrids
are good for future EV production (new batteries, circuitry,
etc.).
With today's higher fuel prices a permanent reality of the later
part of the year 2000's first decade, more and more newswire
items are a combination of many alternative fuel (AF) topics.
Whether it is the younger media personnel actually doing a
reality check on their lower cost transportation options, or
them just adding 'filler' to their pieces to look like they
have done their research, time will tell.
As usual, if a newswire item has non-EV List topics (OT items),
I try to focus the piece by editing it (using [...] to keep
on topic - you can see the whole piece by using the URL at the
top). If I POST a newswire item that has AF topics in it
(h2fcv, bio-fuel, etc.), EV List members should not think I
am encouraging those EV List OT topics be discussed online.
I merely wanted to keep the writer's vision true to the piece.
Please pull EV List topics out of the newswire pieces I POST,
and please respond with POSTs that are not OT to the EV List
(please heed the EV List Administrator's instructions and
guidance).
...
FYI : my status
Another College quarter is starting again and my BSCS degree
coursework is 2/3 completed. The harder and more costly
courses are yet to come. As in the past, my EVLN time will be
limited to when after my coursework has been completed. So
there may be a delay between EVLN POSTings.
EV List archive changes
The EV List archive that archives individual POSTs on yahoo
groups is not archiving all the SJSU POSTs (Yahoo has been
been doing some changes, cleaning of house, and acting quite
weird lately - some groups seem unaffected while others are).
Those EV List readers that like to read their EV List POSTs
from the EV List archives (instead of with a direct SJSU EV
List subscription), should consider reading the EV List archives
that are in digest form if they want to ensure they get all
the POSTs. One of those EV List archives is
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/
...
:: Show your horn before putting it away mode ::
It takes several hours per week to go through all the EV
newswire items I pay for, edit them, and POST them for all
to read. You will find some of my free work on other EV
publications as they pull them down for their use - and no I do
not get paid for any of my hard work I have been doing since
the early 90's.
I pray that my EVLN POSTs to the EV List have been
interesting and informative to the EV List members.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Al wrote:
> Is anyone else running an onboard PC with a data aquisition
> board? I plan on running such a system to track and display
> every possible parameter.
> The biggest headache appears to be building the interfaces. I
> know they have to be isolated, will probably use the Texas
> Instruments ISO124 amps
Sort of. I carry around a laptop that logs the serial data stream from
my E-Meter and also logs the individual voltags of each battery in the
pack.
The interface I built is quite simple. I use a pair of PhotoMOS
"relays" (MOSFET output optoisolators) per battery to connect the
battery's positive and negative terminals to an RS232 DMM. The PC
selects the battery to measure by outputing appropriate signals on the
parallel port data lines, and these signals pass through a bit of CMOS
logic including a 1-of-N decoder to ensure that two batteries can never
be connected to the DMM at the same time even if the software screws up.
Once selected, the PC reads the battery voltage from the DMM via the
RS232 interface.
I used the PhotoMOS devices because I got a good deal on them, but if
you search the Digikey catalog (for instance), there are other MOSFET
output optos rated 350-400V that offer DPST NO behaviour in a single
8-pin package such that one device per battery rather than two would
suffice.
> I would imagine I would sample motor voltage across the B+
> and M- terminals on the controller and motor current in the
> lead from M- to the motor.
> As these signals are switching at 15khz, do they need to be
> low pass filtered or does the motor "smooth" things out?
The motor inductance will smooth the motor current somewhat, but will
not do much for the voltage.
> Also, can I use the volt/amps numbers to integrate total kwh
> used and instantanious hp etc?
Yep. If you are just looking to measure battery voltage and current or
motor voltage and current, then the cheapest and best data acquisition
solution might be to pick yourself up an RS232 E-Meter (Link 10) before
they disappear from the market. The filtering is done for you, and the
meter already integrates the current measurements to provide a running
indication of Ah and/or kWh consumed (or returned) to the battery.
Usually, people monitor just the battery side voltage and current. The
product of the two tells you the "battery HP", that is the total power
being demanded from the battery. This will be roughly equal to motor
(input) HP, since the only difference between the two is the controller
losses (usually quite small).
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
MCs (I'm told) already have suits you can plug in... and my friend says
hunters use similar gear... to keep warm. (It must not draw a lot of heat,
since they carry the batt with them, per his description.)
I wonder if that could be extended to cooling. Maybe one of those portable
coolers w/ batts inside & a "jacket" lined in flexible cooling tubes???
>> With one key distinction: weather protection - sort of.
>
> Think of it as a deluxe version of a nomex "cold suit" that race car
> drivers use, with little tubes circulating water from an ice chest.
>
> Couldn't this get the power consumption needed to make the driver
> comfortable a lot lower?
> --
> Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 13 Mar 2007 at 22:49, Al wrote:
> Should I spend my time/money elsewhere?
I'm going to try to answer this question indirectly.
As I see it, there are two directions when approaching EV conversion. They
exist at the ends of a continuum.
At one end, let's arbitrarily say the left end, is a fully assembled EV such
as the NMG or an AC Propulsion E-Box. A little further along you find
complete conversion kits from Electro Automotive and Canadian EV. Somewhere
a bit further are the highly integrated and fool-resistant (but not
foolproof!) components such as AC Propulsion's and the Brusa and Siemens
drive and charging systems. Then come the mix-and-match but tried-and-true
combinations of DC motors, controllers, and chargers. A little further
along we find used and surplus components. That range carries to the other
end of the continuum. There we find people scrounging through scrapyards,
trolling government surplus sites on the web, dumpster diving behind motor
shops and industrial vehicle dealers, and testing old golf car battery cores
one by one in the snow and drizzle outside battery shops.
There are exceptions, but in general :
The dollars start out big at the left and get small at the right.
The amount of time required starts tiny at the left and gets huge at the
right.
All good so far, but regrettably the experience and skill required also
start small at the left and get large at the right. It's regrettable
because many people starting out in the EV hobby have little experience and
skill, but also don't want to spend much money.
There's a way to get off that continuum, to sort of cheat the rules : Buy a
used conversion that someone else has done. Except when gas prices are
through the roof, a used conversion usually sells for less than the
components would be if bought new (sometimes even cheaper then used
components). However, the amount of time, skill, and experience needed to
get it working is far less than doing your own conversion.
A used conversion will almost certainly come to you with dead or nearly dead
batteries. Replace them with identical types. Fix it up, drive it, analyze
it, improve it. Make mistakes and correct them. We'll help you.
A used conversion may not be optimal, and it certainly won't be done the way
you'd do it. But by the time you've driven it and tinkered with it for a
few years, you'll have a much better idea of what you'd do differently in
your own conversion - and how and why. You'll also have more skills and
maybe even more money. Then you'll be in a better position to figure out
where on that continuum I mentioned you really fall when you tackle your own
conversion.
When - or IF. You might end up like me. I've never done a full conversion
and don't especially want to. A conversion is a huge time commitment, and I
have other things to do with my spare time. I'd rather let someone else do
the heavy lifting - pulling out the greasy bits, doing the machine work,
fitting the motor onto the trans and into the chassis. I prefer fiddling
with controllers and chargers, reworking battery layout and wiring, and so
on. Heck, I'd even hire some of >that< out if I had a Mike Slominski type
EV mechanic nearby - but I don't.
So give it a try. You might find that, like me, you're really an editor
more than a creator. You might find that you actually LIKE building on
others' work and improving it. And if not, you'll learn about how to do a
conversion and make an EV go, including things that you'll never find in any
book.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, or check your local plastics shops. I had a windshield cut from
scratch resistant plexi (about 10 years ago) for under $100. If it's a
double curve, then costs would probably be much higher.
> Custom windshields? I'm guessing that would be VERY expensive. You might
> consider spending some time in a well stocked junk yard and finding out if
> some vehicle out there has a windshield close enough to what you want.
> Then order a new one.
> You might be able to have an existing windshield trimmed down.
>
>> A little off-topic, but does anyone have a good source for someone that
>> can make a custom windshield, and what that might cost?
>> Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 3/14/07 12:11:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
<< Subj: Re: Custom windshield
Date: 3/14/07 12:11:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Michael)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Yes, or check your local plastics shops. I had a windshield cut from
scratch resistant plexi (about 10 years ago) for under $100. If it's a
double curve, then costs would probably be much higher.
> Custom windshields? I'm guessing that would be VERY expensive. You might
> consider spending some time in a well stocked junk yard and finding out if
> some vehicle out there has a windshield close enough to what you want.
> Then order a new one.
> You might be able to have an existing windshield trimmed down.
>
>> A little off-topic, but does anyone have a good source for someone that
>> can make a custom windshield, and what that might cost?
>> Jack >>
My plastic shop just cut a lexan back window for my s10 for $35. D Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> What would help is if interested parties send me an email describing
> what they want;
>
> 1. Bare boards only (with schematics and parts lists)
>
> 2. Parts kits (boards with parts, which you assemble yourself)
>
No 2 makes the most sence to me as buying 10 or more of the same should save
some and having all that partsat once is worth somthing .
> 3. Assembled boards (which you just need to be put into a box)
>
> On the software side, I don't have the time/resources to supply more
> than a demo program (what I'm using for my own EV).
sounds good
You will need to
> change the program to suit your battery pack (number of batteries,
> voltage per battery), the balancing method you want to use (if different
> from mine),
I feel a 4 year collage edacation comming on :-)
and other auxiliary functions (like temperature measurement,
> charger control, fan control, heater control, etc.) So, I would suggest
> that you buy your own BASIC Stamp with its development kit, so you can
> make these changes.
I'll go with the rest on this ,, maybe just one development kit and the other
plane ...
>
> Time: This is a side project for me. I have a backlog of other contracts
> ahead of this one that I need to finish first, so delivery is probably
> going to be 2-3 months.
>
sound good .
steve clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], david woolard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> --- Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Would you please tell me (us) where to find the
> > specifications and price for these wheel motors? I
> > have looked and looked. Found the web site and a
> > few articles. Nothing over a few KW.
>
> I've posted the data sheets that i've got at:
> http://tinyurl.com/yuegvs .
>
> I can't give you any first hand info on price but,
> second hand, I remember reading on this list a while
> back that a 5kw wheel motor was £1500 ($2900) and the
> apropriate controller was £2500 ($4800). So I hate to
> think what their higher power systems cost.
>
> Cheers
> DaveW
>
>
The prices you quote are accurate, I had an email from them stating
so. The £1500 comes down to just over £1000 in numbers over 100, but
for that they custom machine the correct mountings for your
suspension and wheel mounts.
The Hi-Pa, high power motors comprise of a fully enclosed motor and
controller, which requires only drive voltage lines and digital
control signals, off the top of my head they are about £9000
It's important to note that PML are keen to produce volumes in order
to get prices down, but due to the somewhat specialised nature of the
motors they aren't willing to define any particular standard mounting
system so can't produce them without a specific application or they
face losing money in unsold product.
They were very keen for my order for just two motors even though I
had made it clear I was only enquiring about prices. They request a
shedload of information from you, such as maximum rpm, maximum
gradient, weight of vehicle, tyre size....basically they ask all the
_right_ questions :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I just got a $2500 tax credit on my Georgia taxes.
You have to contact the Gerogia dept. of natural resources, environmental
protection division, mobile and area source program - LEV/ZEV certification.
The address is 4244 international parkway, suite 136, Atlanta, GA 31354. The
phone number is 404-363-7028. I spoke with James Udi.
If you live nearby they will want to inspect the vehicle to make sure it really
has been converted to an alternative fuel. For EV's, they just need to make
sure that the electric motor is now the only source of motive power, and that
the original fuel system, etc. has been copmpletely removed. They will come to
you or they may have you come to them if it is in range. The inspection
station is located in Macon, I believe. I live way over in Savannah, so for me
they made do with pictures and receipts.
You send in the documentation and fill out a form, then they sign the form and
send it back. If you file by mail, you send in the form with the tax return.
If you e-file, you keep it unless the tax folks ask to see a copy.
The tax credit is up to $2500 or the cost of the vehicle, and it can be a new
conversion that you did or a used conversion you purchased. Charging stations
and other fuel types are also eligible.
I'll add this to the list in the FAQ shortly.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 7:50:38 AM
Subject: State by State EV Incentives and Regulations?
Has anyone ever put together a state by state listing of the
incentives and regulations that apply to electric vehicles? I was
hoping to find a comprehensive list I could forward to my state
legislators to try and get Missouri out of the dark ages. (No
incentives, no support, just an additional tax.) I guess such a list
might also be something that should be posted on the web as well.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: damon henry
> I am looking for ways to turn on and off contactors with a
> Basic Stamp. The contactors I am working with have 24 volt
> coils. The contactors draw ~2 amps at 24 volts.
The pure mechanics of it are quite simple. The circuit can be as simple as one
part; a logic MOSFET (one whose gate only needs to be 5v to turn on) that also
has internal avalance diode protection (an internal zener between source and
drain). For example, the IRL2203N (30v, 0.007ohms, 116a, TO-220, $1.45 each
from Jameco). You need a part with such high ratings to withstand the 30v at 2a
that its internal zener has to handle when the contactor turns off.
A cheaper solution is to use a bipolar darlington transistor, with a base
resistor, and a diode across the coil. For example, a 1k base resistor, 1N4001
diode, and 2N6042 darlington (100v, [EMAIL PROTECTED], TO-220, $0.55 from
Jameco).
The cheapEST solution may be a ULN2003, which contains seven 60v 0.5a
darlington transistors, base resistors, and diodes. Connect all seven in
parallel, and you have a logic level input, 3.5a output relay driver. $0.39
from Jameco.
I prefer bipolar parts, because they aren't susceptible to static damage, and
won't turn on if the BASIC Stamp's pin is left floating (during reset, for
instance). You need an extra resistor from gate to source for a MOSFET to do
this.
There are lots more variations. You can include an RC slugger circuit in series
with the coil, so it gets hit with the full 12v 2a to pull in, then is held in
with 6v at 1a so the coil and driver run a lot cooler, and so it drops out
faster to extend contact life.
If it is dangerous for the contactor to fail "on" if the micro crashes, then I
would use an AC drive circuit. The micro has to output an AC signal; this runs
a voltage double (2 diodes, 2 capacitors) which in turn powers a MOSFET gate to
turn on the contactor. It is much less lilkely that the micro will crash yet
still be able to make the proper frequency AC on its output pin. Also, part
failures tend to make the MOSFET off rather than on.
To protect against MOSFET failures, use *two* MOSFETs, one n-channel and one
p-channel, wired in a push-pull arrangement with their gates tied together.
Include a fuse in the 12v supply. If either MOSFET fails, when the other one
comes on, it shorts the supply and blows the fuse.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee has asked for an email describing what you want below in Green.
I have sent this to everyone who has responded. In case I missed anyone I
included the EV list. I am also going to send this on to some other list that
this balancer would really help with.
1. Question below by Paul can we add temperature probes?
2. In a prior email in red below Lee brought up saving manufacturing cost.
The above one and two going different directions. I would be for spending
the extra money for more options. I have little doubt in a short time we will
be
working with lithium batteries. Heat is a critical factor with them as well
as other battery technologies. The savings I am for is producing more so the
cost is reduced.
Please respond to all to keep everyone informed.
Thank you
Don
In a message dated 3/14/2007 1:11:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Don,
The design as it stands doesn't have enough temperature probe ports for
NiMh. I think that we need one probe per battery. It is probably
possible to add a multiplexer for multiple temperature probes and let
the stamp select them at the same time it is selecting the battery it is
going to measure voltage on.
Paul
> Specifically, the old control board used an external digital multimeter
> with isolated RS-232 output to measure battery voltage and current. They
> cost $50-$100. I'm experimenting with a cheaper on-board circuit to do
> this (since everyone is obsessed with cost).
>
Yes, there's an order in the works. I'm trying to work out the final
details, and figure out how many to order, and what features people
want/need. Stay tuned!
What would help is if interested parties send me an email describing
what they want;
1. Bare boards only (with schematics and parts lists)
2. Parts kits (boards with parts, which you assemble yourself)
3. Assembled boards (which you just need to be put into a box)
On the software side, I don't have the time/resources to supply more
than a demo program (what I'm using for my own EV). You will need to
change the program to suit your battery pack (number of batteries,
voltage per battery), the balancing method you want to use (if different
from mine), and other auxiliary functions (like temperature measurement,
charger control, fan control, heater control, etc.) So, I would suggest
that you buy your own BASIC Stamp with its development kit, so you can
make these changes.
Time: This is a side project for me. I have a backlog of other contracts
ahead of this one that I need to finish first, so delivery is probably
going to be 2-3 months.
Note: Just saying you want one won't make it so. Serious orders only!
It's too expensive a project for me to order all the parts on the CHANCE
that you MIGHT buy it. Once I know how many we need, then I can quote a
price. When folks pay for it, I place the orders.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hey!!!! David this post should be sent to every newbie on the list it would
help give them perspective
----- Original Message -----
From: David Roden<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: distributed charging and equalizing
On 13 Mar 2007 at 22:49, Al wrote:
> Should I spend my time/money elsewhere?
I'm going to try to answer this question indirectly.
As I see it, there are two directions when approaching EV conversion. They
exist at the ends of a continuum.
At one end, let's arbitrarily say the left end, is a fully assembled EV such
as the NMG or an AC Propulsion E-Box. A little further along you find
complete conversion kits from Electro Automotive and Canadian EV. Somewhere
a bit further are the highly integrated and fool-resistant (but not
foolproof!) components such as AC Propulsion's and the Brusa and Siemens
drive and charging systems. Then come the mix-and-match but tried-and-true
combinations of DC motors, controllers, and chargers. A little further
along we find used and surplus components. That range carries to the other
end of the continuum. There we find people scrounging through scrapyards,
trolling government surplus sites on the web, dumpster diving behind motor
shops and industrial vehicle dealers, and testing old golf car battery cores
one by one in the snow and drizzle outside battery shops.
There are exceptions, but in general :
The dollars start out big at the left and get small at the right.
The amount of time required starts tiny at the left and gets huge at the
right.
All good so far, but regrettably the experience and skill required also
start small at the left and get large at the right. It's regrettable
because many people starting out in the EV hobby have little experience and
skill, but also don't want to spend much money.
There's a way to get off that continuum, to sort of cheat the rules : Buy a
used conversion that someone else has done. Except when gas prices are
through the roof, a used conversion usually sells for less than the
components would be if bought new (sometimes even cheaper then used
components). However, the amount of time, skill, and experience needed to
get it working is far less than doing your own conversion.
A used conversion will almost certainly come to you with dead or nearly dead
batteries. Replace them with identical types. Fix it up, drive it, analyze
it, improve it. Make mistakes and correct them. We'll help you.
A used conversion may not be optimal, and it certainly won't be done the way
you'd do it. But by the time you've driven it and tinkered with it for a
few years, you'll have a much better idea of what you'd do differently in
your own conversion - and how and why. You'll also have more skills and
maybe even more money. Then you'll be in a better position to figure out
where on that continuum I mentioned you really fall when you tackle your own
conversion.
When - or IF. You might end up like me. I've never done a full conversion
and don't especially want to. A conversion is a huge time commitment, and I
have other things to do with my spare time. I'd rather let someone else do
the heavy lifting - pulling out the greasy bits, doing the machine work,
fitting the motor onto the trans and into the chassis. I prefer fiddling
with controllers and chargers, reworking battery layout and wiring, and so
on. Heck, I'd even hire some of >that< out if I had a Mike Slominski type
EV mechanic nearby - but I don't.
So give it a try. You might find that, like me, you're really an editor
more than a creator. You might find that you actually LIKE building on
others' work and improving it. And if not, you'll learn about how to do a
conversion and make an EV go, including things that you'll never find in any
book.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how:
http://www.evdl.org/help/<http://www.evdl.org/help/>
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/<http://www.evdl.org/help/> .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, Mar 14, 2007 at 07:05:37PM -0500, FRED JEANETTE MERTENS wrote:
> hey!!!! David this post should be sent to every newbie on the list it would
> help give them perspective
I agree.
make this a FAQ or a welcome mail to all new subscribers.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Roden<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 3:05 PM
> Subject: Re: distributed charging and equalizing
>
>
> On 13 Mar 2007 at 22:49, Al wrote:
>
> > Should I spend my time/money elsewhere?
>
> I'm going to try to answer this question indirectly.
>
> As I see it, there are two directions when approaching EV conversion. They
> exist at the ends of a continuum.
>
> At one end, let's arbitrarily say the left end, is a fully assembled EV
> such
> as the NMG or an AC Propulsion E-Box. A little further along you find
> complete conversion kits from Electro Automotive and Canadian EV.
> Somewhere
> a bit further are the highly integrated and fool-resistant (but not
> foolproof!) components such as AC Propulsion's and the Brusa and Siemens
> drive and charging systems. Then come the mix-and-match but tried-and-true
> combinations of DC motors, controllers, and chargers. A little further
> along we find used and surplus components. That range carries to the other
> end of the continuum. There we find people scrounging through scrapyards,
> trolling government surplus sites on the web, dumpster diving behind motor
> shops and industrial vehicle dealers, and testing old golf car battery
> cores
> one by one in the snow and drizzle outside battery shops.
>
> There are exceptions, but in general :
>
> The dollars start out big at the left and get small at the right.
>
> The amount of time required starts tiny at the left and gets huge at the
> right.
>
> All good so far, but regrettably the experience and skill required also
> start small at the left and get large at the right. It's regrettable
> because many people starting out in the EV hobby have little experience and
> skill, but also don't want to spend much money.
>
> There's a way to get off that continuum, to sort of cheat the rules : Buy a
> used conversion that someone else has done. Except when gas prices are
> through the roof, a used conversion usually sells for less than the
> components would be if bought new (sometimes even cheaper then used
> components). However, the amount of time, skill, and experience needed to
> get it working is far less than doing your own conversion.
>
> A used conversion will almost certainly come to you with dead or nearly
> dead
> batteries. Replace them with identical types. Fix it up, drive it,
> analyze
> it, improve it. Make mistakes and correct them. We'll help you.
>
> A used conversion may not be optimal, and it certainly won't be done the
> way
> you'd do it. But by the time you've driven it and tinkered with it for a
> few years, you'll have a much better idea of what you'd do differently in
> your own conversion - and how and why. You'll also have more skills and
> maybe even more money. Then you'll be in a better position to figure out
> where on that continuum I mentioned you really fall when you tackle your
> own
> conversion.
>
> When - or IF. You might end up like me. I've never done a full conversion
> and don't especially want to. A conversion is a huge time commitment, and
> I
> have other things to do with my spare time. I'd rather let someone else do
> the heavy lifting - pulling out the greasy bits, doing the machine work,
> fitting the motor onto the trans and into the chassis. I prefer fiddling
> with controllers and chargers, reworking battery layout and wiring, and so
> on. Heck, I'd even hire some of >that< out if I had a Mike Slominski type
> EV mechanic nearby - but I don't.
>
> So give it a try. You might find that, like me, you're really an editor
> more than a creator. You might find that you actually LIKE building on
> others' work and improving it. And if not, you'll learn about how to do a
> conversion and make an EV go, including things that you'll never find in
> any
> book.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how:
> http://www.evdl.org/help/<http://www.evdl.org/help/>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/<http://www.evdl.org/help/> .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--
Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
http://ev.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
| Minnie Driver, Grosse Point Blank
--- End Message ---
