EV Digest 6596
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery Data
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Recommended wire gauge
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: ***DHSPAM*** Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Heidi's NmG first 1000 mile report...
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Sacramento EV activity
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Has anyone played around with the A123 Systems batteries?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Horrifying trailer towing experience
by Finn John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Anyone want to climb Mt. Washington?
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by Jean-Michel Mistrot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Has anyone played around with the A123 Systems batteries?
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Converting a mini classic
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) New Kids on the Block WAS gensets was charging while driving question
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Battery Data
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battery Data
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Converting a mini classic
by Jean-Michel Mistrot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Nichek Sodium Cloride battery
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: FAST(er) NEV's - Update HB 1820 Washington State
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Wire size optimization formula
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Has anyone played around with the A123 Systems batteries?
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Has anyone played around with the A123 Systems batteries?
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Wire size optimization formula
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Has anyone played around with the A123 Systems batteries?
by Shop Grunt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Energy use, was: gensets was: charging while driving question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps more interesting is the referenced document that shows how to
improve cycle life for Optima batteries,
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy02osti/31119.pdf
Using a 5-seconds on, 5-seconds off charge cycle.
But their 150-200 cycle baseline for the batteries seems a REAL cheat,
making you really wonder how credible this is, or is that figure true?
Jack
David Sharpe wrote:
Found an interesting battery comparison contained below
http://mec.ceveq.qc.ca/assets/files/Preliminary_Technical_Analysis_Final.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Hooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 9:49 AM
Subject: Recommended wire gauge
> Hi all,
>
> I'm sure this has been asked a hundred times before, but I was hoping
> for a quick bit of advice about the best wire gauge for an EV..
>
> The particulars are: 160V 90Ah Lithium battery (≤10C discharge), 800
> amp fuse, custom ~1000 amp controller, Warp9 motor. Does it sound
> like a job for 2/0 gauge?
>
> -Ian Hooper
> You Bet! 2/0 wire seems to be the gold(Copper) standard for EV's
nowadaze, it is hidiously expensive, like ALL copper wire. Try welding
shops, places where it is common. Tag sales, I bought a BOX of it years ago
at a tag sale for 10 bux. They didn't know what it was worth! Just a box of
ugly heavy wire to them, they were glad to get rid if it.
Happy Hunting
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Ireland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 9:09 AM
Subject: RE: ***DHSPAM*** Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
> John,
>
> I am sure there are heaps of us!
>
> Of the very few posters who I have set my email client to display in a
> high-lighted colour... yours come up in RED! And I also find myself
> thinking "Oh great! It's a long one!"
>
> Always a great read, both for the story and the knowledge.
>
> Tim Ireland
> South Australia.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of John Wayland
> Sent: Saturday, 24 March 2007 6:25 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: ***DHSPAM*** Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have
> To...2007
>
>
> Hello to Joe and All,
>> The above did wonders for me, thanks Joe! I guess I'll go ahead and
> finish my post that's almost all done and 'was' destined to the trash
> bin, about the recent Roadster Show, and get it to the EVDL, now that I
> know there's still a few out there that still care.
>
> See Ya......John Wayland
> A FEW?.......Looks, to me, Like the whold damn List! Don't ya DARE Trash
a post! PLEASE keep them coming for the fans." From Memphis to Mobile",
Saybrook to Stamford ,Australia to Austria, to borrow lines from a Victrola
Record era song<g>!EVerybody has stories to tell, but yours are the best as
you are DOING the stuff the rest of us fantisize about!
Seeya at the Races!
Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ken an' Heidi;
What a heartwarming story this AM, to get up to!The EV grin, BOUGHT and
enjoyed. You didn't have to BUILD the damn car, just buy and enjoy it!I knew
when Heidi took a spin in the Rabbit she would love an EV of her own!Looks
like is SOMEBODY like Myers Motors , got their shit together and put a car
out there that WORKS. I hope they pay ya(Or give ya another Sparrow, for
using your note as advertising<g>!? Jerry Dycus? Got your Ears on<g>? Will
Freedon EV find happiness in a EV lover's garage or too, Stay Tuned!If
Freedom does as well?Prey for it!IF Jerry stays on target at 13k and ya buy
a Freedom to share the garage with the Sparrow?A hands on comparison test
AND ya can go places as a Couple! Thanks for Sharing!
Anyhow, Hope this is the beginning of ANOTHER love affair, like the boat
guy here that has a fuelishly expensive runabout named" The Other Woman"at
our local marina.
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 8:41 AM
Subject: Heidi's NmG first 1000 mile report...
> First 1,000 mile report.
> Heidi’s new Myers Motors NmG, “Tweety” arrived home just after
Thanksgiving
> 2006.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Sacramento...
I checked the EAA website and found the Sacramento website is woefully out
of date. Kinda like it hasn't been recharged lately...
I am working in the Sacramento area for the next couple of months and am
having EV withdrawel already. Are there any activities or meetings planned?
I have nothing on the agenda yet for most weekends, how about anyone
needing an EV helping hand?
Reply off list if you like.
Jim
'93 Dodge TEVan
'88 Fiero ESE
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have emailed them numerous times to find out quantity pricing and if
this is a miss-print or if there is perhaps a difference but they sell 4
for $66 also. (<soapbox> They just don't respond to emails anymore. Very
Annoying. They ought to remove all the contact us and emails from their
website and replace it with a phone number and an explination if they
have no intention of returning them</soapbox>)
It is a little awkward getting to that part of the site so here is the link
http://www.a123racing.com/html/rcdevkits.html
129/6 = $21.50 per cell (or 110/6 = $18.33ea)
66/4 = $16.50 per cell
Maybe $4/cell is the charge for tabs?
Does the killacycle "ultralight racing battery" have an internal BMS?
Since it appears to be a 2P4S A123 pack?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Note: vehicles with transfer cases and 4WD are
> usually not towable and need
> to be flat-bedded/trailered.
My experience has been that a transfer case -- at
least, an old-school unit like a Spicer 18 or Dana 20,
I dunno about these newfangled "fulltime 4WD" kits,
but the kind that has actual gears and is engaged by
muscling a lever on the floorboards -- makes flat
towing tons easier and safer. The power input from the
wheels being turned never reaches the actual
transmission. That's why you see so many Jeep
Wranglers and Cherokees being dragged along behind
giant motorhomes.
> - is it automatic or CVT? Don't try towing 4-down
> unless the car is listed
> as towable 4-down.
good advice. I've never seen an automatic transmission
you could tow with four down unless it had a transfer
case behind it.
cheers!
--Finn
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 8:07 AM
Subject: Anyone want to climb Mt. Washington?
> Mt. Washington Auto Road is bringing back their Alternative Vehicle
Regatta. See link for info:
>
http://www.mountwashingtonautoroad.com/index.php?module=StaticContent&func=display&scid=176
>
> I encourage everyone in the northeast to try to make it to this event.
It's a great chance to generate some good EV publicity. For those who've
never been, the Auto Road is 8 miles long and the elevation change is about
4500'. Very challenging (to say the least) and if you can't regenerate, you
better have good brakes! The summit is above the tree line and offers
outstanding views on clear days. It looks like there will be an exhibition
and space for vendors. I'll keep the List updated as I learn
> more.
>
> Hi Frank;
Thanks for the link! Sounds like fun! Maybe I'll have the Jetta ready? I
went to the link, Still winter up there! 18 degreez! Hafta hook up SOME kind
of Regen!Shane for it to go to waste! Driving a Prius up Pike's Peek sure
made that obvious. Battery was charged to the teeth LONG before I got down,,
though!
Years ago I came in to, WHY I donnow! the possession of SCADS of those
nice " This Car Climbed Mt. Washington" stickers, about when they started
appearing on Metro North and Amtrak locomotives and cars! In the NYC
commuting area<g>!I'm sure they gave a chuckle to many a commuter?
Seeya
Bob
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Get your own web address.
> Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVers,
I am a new lurker. Honestly it is stories like these that inspire me
to take the plunge, get a donor and start modding. I am a newb so I
don't have the ability to comment otherwise. Just wanted to throw my
hat in the ring and encourage you guys to keep pressing the limits.
It is work like yours that brings EVs to a larger and larger audience.
jm
P.S. Rodderick I used to live in the States and I know what you mean
about apathy. I think there is change on the horizon.
On 22-Mar-07, at 8:59 PM, Roderick Wilde wrote:
Hi Mike, Thanks for responding. I have noticed over a period of
time that there does not seem to be a lot of responses to items of
this nature. I do not really know if people on the List do not
really care about pressing the envelope of EV performance or not. I
am not sure if it is apathy or something else. John is by far the
best orator on these adventures and this subject and yet to see so
little response seems to me to indicate little interest. This
actually may be the case now days. Several years back there seemed
to be quite a bit more interest in pushing the envelope of EV
development but hey, times change and we are now living in a world
of apathy. Note: purely my own opinions from my own observations. I
am sure it is not everywhere. I just happen to live in the US. It
is not my fault where I was born. For people born elsewhere please
speak up on your opinions of EV performance.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "MIKE WILLMON"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
Hey John,
Any chance the camera crew provided you with any clips to tease us
with??
Or are they holding footage for their full length feature film
about a guy in a Plasmaboy suit??
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 10:41 pm
Subject: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
To: [email protected]
Hello to All,
about the time I was maneuvering the big Isuzu service truck in
place,
Greg and his band of energetic camera toting high school video
students
arrived to help secure the area.
It's all caught on 4 cameras, including a car-cam securely
strapped into
the Zombie's passenger seat (check it out at the 'Photos' page).
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.17/730 - Release Date:
3/22/2007 7:44 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
'I noticed the other day that you can buy a "developer's kit" from
A123 Systems:
http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/buyKit.html
I realize they are a bit pricey ($129 for a 6 cell kit)..."
Mick says: I echo Kert Kaido's suggestion to observe what the radio
controlled hobbyists have been doing with these small cells. Much as with
the EV crowd, these people expect a lot from their batteries. I learn a lot
from both camps.
Some of the radio guys have been buying the DeWalt lithium ion cordless
battery packs then cutting them open just to get the 10 A123 cells inside.
This might be cheaper per cell than the $129 developer kit, but you'd have
to butcher up a nice pre-assembled package. Instructions on how to do that
are even posted with pictures.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jean-Michel Mistrot wrote:
> I am a software engineer looking to take the EV plunge...
> So I am browsing around my local used car sites looking for a
> donor.
> What do you all think of converting a mini classic?
> It seems to me that it could make a decent commuter vehicle.
> Thoughts? advice? admonishments? all welcome..
Jean-Michel, I'm also pushing bits in Vancouver, and my present plan is
for my next EV to be a mini classic also. Have you found a local
source? ;^>
(I only need a one with a sound body; the ICE and tranny aren't
required...)
If you haven't yet been to a Vancouver Electric Vehicle Association
(VEVA, <http://www.veva.ca>) meeting (or had the misfortune to come to
last week's AGM as your first one ;^), it is a good way to get in touch
with like-minded individuals and bounce ideas off people. Feel free to
contact me off-list if you like.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> I have noticed over a period of time that there does
> not seem to be a lot of responses to items of this
> nature. I do not really know if people on the List
> do not really care about pressing the envelope of EV
> performance or not.
I don't think there is any shortage of people who follow and appreciate
the racing reports, it just didn't seem useful for each and everyone of
us to chime in with yet another pat on the back after the first couple
such responses.
> For people born elsewhere please speak up on your
> opinions of EV performance.
(Born in the US, but have lived in Canada for most of my life.)
With 3 young kids now, I haven't made it to a NEDRA event for far too
long; I *rely* on the racing updates posted to the EVDL to keep up with
what's going on. Keep 'em coming!
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Darin wrote:
> > NEVs aren't required to be crash tested, but the Canadian
> > government got samples of a few and did just this, then
> > presented the videos of the tests.
>
> Do you happen to know if the results (or videos) of these tests are
> available online?
Sorry, I don't; I've never tried looking. IIRC, the video was presented
at the GLOBE conference in Vancouver a year or so ago (this might be
another angle to use if you choose to search for the results).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: gensets was charging while driving question
Slash an' Burn or Snip a bit;>
> Those with an interest in audio might compare the optimization that's been
> performed on the ICE in the last 30 years to that carried out on the phono
> cartridge between about 1955 and 1985. It was almost as if the audio
> designers suspended the laws of physics (not really of course) in
> transcending the limitations of a mechanical device through drastic mass
> reduction, materials development, and just plain careful tweaking. Who in
> 1955 could have expected the kind of phono cartridge performance that was
> achieved just 30 years later?
Hi EVerybody;
Taking a point, and chunk outa David's post. In My Perfect World, if the
E.E.'s AND M.E.'s were doing all this with the same passions as to EV's we
would have SHOWROOMS full of EV's and Sat -Turd- Day Automotive sections in
papers offering Rebates etc on EV's, On and On!
I play my 78's on the new Phono Cartridges, too. No more Record Dust on
the turntable, like in tho bad old daze,12 lb cartridges!Put them on those
new fangled Cassettes for " Music to build EV's By"
Similarly, MEs have cleaned up the automotive
> ICE far more than most of us ever would have thought possible in 1977.
> That's for SURE! When I fire up my Prius compared with my trusty, rusty,
which I can still FIX, Ford '78 van!
> But like the phono cartridge in 1983, the ICE now sees a technology
waiting
> in the wings. It's one which doesn't have the same limitations to
> transcend. Instead it has a whole NEW set of limitations to challenge the
> engineers. ;-)
> We havent scratched the surface, YET.( bad terminology with Records of
Vinal<g>) The new stuff will come from the new kids on the block; Tesla,
Phoenix Motor Cars, Myers Motors, Hopefully Dycus Motors. Lee Hart Motor
Works? General Murders? With a Regime Change, maybe, don't hold yur breath!
My two Co.'s worth
Bob and,
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Administrator
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jack Murray
> ...the referenced document that shows how to improve cycle life
> for Optima batteries,
> http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy02osti/31119.pdf
> Using a 5-seconds on, 5-seconds off charge cycle.
> But their 150-200 cycle baseline for the batteries seems a REAL cheat,
> making you really wonder how credible this is, or is that figure true?
This test has been extensively discussed before. Basically, it's a rather naive
and misleading comparison. They used an exceptionally BAD charging method for
their baseline "control" algorithm, which caused the very short 150-200 cycle
life. Basically, they drastically overcharged them to death.
And, they used a biased methodology for their "test" algorithm, leading to the
exaggeratedly long life. Basically, the batteries were kept very hot, producing
a higher capacity. They completed their testing in a short timespan, hiding the
fact that calendar life is very short with this algorithm. And, they changed
batteries during the test, and so listed the best-case results rather than
average or typical results.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's what it looked like to me, so yeah they have no credibility.
In fact, the canada article seems equally questionable, the graphs and
charts make comparisons with questionable data, surprise surprise, the
item they are evaluating (promoting?) comes out the best!
I will say that I did learn something, never heard of the Zebra Nichek
Sodium Cloride battery,
anyone have more info on its price and availability?
Jack
Lee Hart wrote:
From: Jack Murray
...the referenced document that shows how to improve cycle life
for Optima batteries,
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy02osti/31119.pdf
Using a 5-seconds on, 5-seconds off charge cycle.
But their 150-200 cycle baseline for the batteries seems a REAL cheat,
making you really wonder how credible this is, or is that figure true?
This test has been extensively discussed before. Basically, it's a rather naive and misleading comparison. They used an exceptionally BAD charging method for their baseline "control" algorithm, which caused the very short 150-200 cycle life. Basically, they drastically overcharged them to death.
And, they used a biased methodology for their "test" algorithm, leading to the
exaggeratedly long life. Basically, the batteries were kept very hot, producing a higher
capacity. They completed their testing in a short timespan, hiding the fact that calendar
life is very short with this algorithm. And, they changed batteries during the test, and
so listed the best-case results rather than average or typical results.
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger,
This guy is selling a shell with parts.. I don't have the room. I
need something to drive while I gather the parts. But if you are not
in the same situation this car has been ujp for awhile you might be
able to bargain him down a bit..
http://vancouver.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-classic-cars-75-Classic-
Austin-Mini-W0QQAdIdZ8435520
jm
P.S. We should start a Vancouver EV chapter eh?
On 25-Mar-07, at 10:35 AM, Roger Stockton wrote:
Jean-Michel Mistrot wrote:
I am a software engineer looking to take the EV plunge...
So I am browsing around my local used car sites looking for a
donor.
What do you all think of converting a mini classic?
It seems to me that it could make a decent commuter vehicle.
Thoughts? advice? admonishments? all welcome..
Jean-Michel, I'm also pushing bits in Vancouver, and my present
plan is
for my next EV to be a mini classic also. Have you found a local
source? ;^>
(I only need a one with a sound body; the ICE and tranny aren't
required...)
If you haven't yet been to a Vancouver Electric Vehicle Association
(VEVA, <http://www.veva.ca>) meeting (or had the misfortune to come to
last week's AGM as your first one ;^), it is a good way to get in
touch
with like-minded individuals and bounce ideas off people. Feel
free to
contact me off-list if you like.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
During WW II Navy life-raft flashlights were powered - or activated by
immersion in sea water.
I saw a few in surplus stores.
John in Sylmar, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>> NEVs aren't required to be crash tested, but the Canadian
>>> government got samples of a few and did just this, then
>>> presented the videos of the tests.
>> Do you happen to know if the results (or videos) of these tests
>> are available online?
> Sorry, I don't; I've never tried looking. IIRC, the video was
> presented at the GLOBE conference in Vancouver a year or so ago
NEVs are built so much differently from normal cars that I'm not sure the
standard crash tests would yield meaningful data. They are much lighter; they
may do fine into a fixed barrier test, but not in an impact against a much
heavier average sized vehicle. NEVs also are much smaller, leading to much less
"crush space". In a crash, the lighter vehicle needs *more* crush space.
Finally, NEVs won't reach the speeds that some crash tests are conducted at.
The old CitiCars were crash tested, and initially failed. There wasn't much
actual damage, but because they were so light, the occupants would have
experienced much higher decelleration forces, and so received more injuries.
The later ComutaCars rectified this, and were successfully crash tested (to the
standards of the times) by adding those huge bumpers that stuck way out in
front and back, to provide the additional "crush space" needed. So it *can* be
done -- it just looks funny. :-)
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Ian wrote:
I'm sure this has been asked a hundred times before, but I was hoping
for a quick bit of advice about the best wire gauge for an EV..
Ian, this a good subject to bring up, and it's one I've recently dealt
with when I redesigned the battery system in White Zombie.
The cable size is dictated largely, by the demands of your EV. Thus, a
120V-144V, 3000-4000 lb. street EV that on average may use 100-150 amps
with occasional 400 amp current draws up steep hills, probably needs 2/0
cable, where a light 156V-192V, 2000-2500 lb.street EV that on average
may use 50-75 amps with occasional 200 amp current draws up steep hills,
can get away with 1/0 cables. Even light 1/0 cables can pass 1000 amps
for several seconds of hard acceleration (with some losses, of course).
I used bus bar interconnects and 2/0 cabling on the heavy 5300 lb. Red
Beastie with its low 120V system, and never had any problems. That truck
had a BIG battery pack and could drive for hours continuously, so there
was a lot of attention paid to the details. It was set up fairly well
(65 psi tires, perfect alignment, etc.) and only drew between 125-135
amps to cruise at 55-60 mph. On hills, it still only drew 450 amps,
because the controller limited at that level. Yes, the cables warmed up
on long hill climbs, but it still worked out OK. This truck could
repeatedly run 120 miles per charge at highway speeds on lead acid
batteries...lots of them!
Conversely, on my light 2340 lb. Blue Meanie, even though its controller
can suck 1000 battery amps, I use 1/0 cables. They are usually cold to
the touch after a 15 mile drive, as the current draw of this 156V car is
only 55 amps @ 55 mph. Even under full throttle acceleration and 1000
amp current draws, the time the cables are under that load is only a
matter of seconds, because the car picks up speed rapidly and you are
way above the speed limit so quickly, you let off on the throttle and
the current drops accordingly.
If it's a racing EV that also sees street duty, you have to balance the
desire to have minimal losses with the desire to keep weight down, and
of course the cost, when it comes to cable size.
On White Zombie....The previous pack of 30 of the larger 24.5 lb. 26 ahr
Hawkers (still small compared to the standard Optima and Orbital 40-45
lb. batteries) were all wired in series for 360 volts. Each battery was
asked to endure 1000-1100 amps (depending on the Zilla's Hairball
settings) pretty much continuously for 12-13 seconds, so they were
inter-connected with 1/4 inch thick one inch wide fat copper bus bars
and 4/0 cabling. The cabling was very heavy, but at 1000-1100 amps it
was what the car needed to get as much battery power into the motor. The
motor sections have to handle 2000 amps...short pieces of 4/0, definitely!
Bill Dube wrote:
>You figure how long you are going to pull the big amps at most and
this sets the minimum possible wire size. Remember, the current >profile
on the motor side is completely different to the current profile on the
battery side.
Agreed!
The recent change-over to 60 of the much smaller (but more powerful lb.
for lb.) batteries caused me the seriously think about the cabling
issue. At 750 max. amps for each battery, I felt 4/0 was overkill for
the short duration of time they would be under that current. The same
reasoning went into the bus bar width and thickness. As such, instead of
the 1/4 inch thick one inch wide bus bar material used on the bigger
batteries, I returned to the 1/8 inch thick 3/4 inch wide bus bar size
used in the '98 - '02 version of the car when it ran on a single string
of the same model little Hawkers. I also went with 2/0 cabling between,
to, and from the twin 360V packs, but once the packs are combined at the
positive-most and negative-most ends, 4/0 cable is retained to carry the
up-to-1500 amps forward to the business end of the car. 4/0 is also
retained at the controller/motor loop circuit area as well.
I checked on the Zombie's battery pack today, a week after the races.
I've got the packs limited to 500 amps max. current for now, for a
combined 1000 battery amps. The copper bus bars all still look shinny
copper-colored with no blue an or purple heat signatures evident. The
cables and crimped 2/0 connectors too, all look great. At the races, I
would feel the cables right after Tim returned from a run, and they were
perceptibly warm, but certainly not hot. Looks like the 2/0 size and
smaller bus bars was a good decision. We saved about 20 lbs. in weight
between the previous system's heavy bus bars, heavy 4/0 cables, and
heavy 4/0 terminals, even though there are more bus bars and a couple
extra runs of short cables with the new twin pack system.
Side bar...when the keyswitch is off, White Zombie's two 360V packs are
tied at their negatives but are open at their positives, so they are
separate packs until the car is 'on' (when the pair of EV250 contactors
pull in and parallel the positives) or under charge (the packs get
automatically paralleled when the twin 50 amp Anderson connector is
plugged in). Photos are up under the 'White Zombie History' button, then
under '2007'. On Thursday and an hour after a light trickle charge, pack
'A' read 394.2V...pack 'B' read 394.2V! Today, three days later with no
in-between recharges, pack 'A' reads 389.5V and pack 'B' reads exactly
the same at 389.5V. A very nicely matched set of batteries that show no
ill effects from last weekend's 4 strong runs!
Bill Dube wrote:
>You also have to decide what losses are acceptable for the weight (and
money) you would save in wire. Bigger wire has lower losses, >but it
adds weight to the vehicle and cost to the vehicle. As you go bigger and
bigger, the returns diminish, especially when you >consider how
infrequently you flow maximum current. You also give up some HP with
smaller wire, but you must consider the >HP/weight ratio of the drive
package to know if you are winning or losing by adding thicker (or
thinner) wire.
I can't say this any better, and totally agree with Bill on this.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am actually really glad I spoke up on this subject as it had the effect of
bringing some new EV faces out of lurk mode. I hope I get to meet some of
you in person one of these days.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 10:46 AM
Subject: RE: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
Roderick Wilde wrote:
I have noticed over a period of time that there does
not seem to be a lot of responses to items of this
nature. I do not really know if people on the List
do not really care about pressing the envelope of EV
performance or not.
I don't think there is any shortage of people who follow and appreciate
the racing reports, it just didn't seem useful for each and everyone of
us to chime in with yet another pat on the back after the first couple
such responses.
For people born elsewhere please speak up on your
opinions of EV performance.
(Born in the US, but have lived in Canada for most of my life.)
With 3 young kids now, I haven't made it to a NEDRA event for far too
long; I *rely* on the racing updates posted to the EVDL to keep up with
what's going on. Keep 'em coming!
Cheers,
Roger.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.18/733 - Release Date: 3/25/2007
11:07 AM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You don't get the double-tabbed cells in the DeWalt pack.
With the tabbed cells, you can solder the connections. Without the
tabs, you must find a $20,000, 4000 amp inverter welder or pay
someone to weld the tabs on for you. Soldering the tabs to the cells
damages the cells.
Bill Dube'
At 09:49 AM 3/25/2007, you wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
'I noticed the other day that you can buy a "developer's kit" from
A123 Systems:
http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/buyKit.html
I realize they are a bit pricey ($129 for a 6 cell kit)..."
Mick says: I echo Kert Kaido's suggestion to observe what the radio
controlled hobbyists have been doing with these small cells. Much as with
the EV crowd, these people expect a lot from their batteries. I learn a lot
from both camps.
Some of the radio guys have been buying the DeWalt lithium ion cordless
battery packs then cutting them open just to get the 10 A123 cells inside.
This might be cheaper per cell than the $129 developer kit, but you'd have
to butcher up a nice pre-assembled package. Instructions on how to do that
are even posted with pictures.
Mick Abraham
www.abrahamsolar.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ask me what you want to know about A123 Systems cells.
They are overwhelmed with tech support questions.
The development kit has double-tabbed cells. 4 tabs x $1 per = $4
Bill Dube'
At 09:23 AM 3/25/2007, you wrote:
I have emailed them numerous times to find out quantity pricing and if
this is a miss-print or if there is perhaps a difference but they sell 4
for $66 also. (<soapbox> They just don't respond to emails anymore. Very
Annoying. They ought to remove all the contact us and emails from their
website and replace it with a phone number and an explination if they
have no intention of returning them</soapbox>)
It is a little awkward getting to that part of the site so here is the link
http://www.a123racing.com/html/rcdevkits.html
129/6 = $21.50 per cell (or 110/6 = $18.33ea)
66/4 = $16.50 per cell
Maybe $4/cell is the charge for tabs?
Does the killacycle "ultralight racing battery" have an internal BMS?
Since it appears to be a 2P4S A123 pack?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We just bumped up to 1/0 on the pack cable for the KillaCycle. It is
a bit heavier than it needs to be, but we are planning to boost the
HP up even more later, so I figured now was as good a time as ever to do this.
The bike has been setting records with #1 battery cables for
all these years. If you plug the numbers into the formula I sent
earlier, you will discover this is more than thick enough for the run
down the strip.
If you pick cable sizes by intuition instead of by
calculation, your car will not go as fast as it could. Run the
numbers through the formula and you will discover that you should be
running 1/0 battery cable.
4/0 or thicker is probably what the formula would show for
the motors, I would guess. you would have to plug in your numbers to
really know.
Bill Dube'
I also went with 2/0 cabling between, to, and from the twin 360V
packs, but once the packs are combined at the positive-most and
negative-most ends, 4/0 cable is retained to carry the up-to-1500
amps forward to the business end of the car. 4/0 is also retained at
the controller/motor loop circuit area as well.
I checked on the Zombie's battery pack today, a week after the
races. I've got the packs limited to 500 amps max. current for now,
for a combined 1000 battery amps. The copper bus bars all still look
shinny copper-colored with no blue an or purple heat signatures
evident. The cables and crimped 2/0 connectors too, all look great.
At the races, I would feel the cables right after Tim returned from
a run, and they were perceptibly warm, but certainly not hot. Looks
like the 2/0 size and smaller bus bars was a good decision. We saved
about 20 lbs. in weight between the previous system's heavy bus
bars, heavy 4/0 cables, and heavy 4/0 terminals, even though there
are more bus bars and a couple extra runs of short cables with the
new twin pack system.
Side bar...when the keyswitch is off, White Zombie's two 360V packs
are tied at their negatives but are open at their positives, so they
are separate packs until the car is 'on' (when the pair of EV250
contactors pull in and parallel the positives) or under charge (the
packs get automatically paralleled when the twin 50 amp Anderson
connector is plugged in). Photos are up under the 'White Zombie
History' button, then under '2007'. On Thursday and an hour after a
light trickle charge, pack 'A' read 394.2V...pack 'B' read 394.2V!
Today, three days later with no in-between recharges, pack 'A' reads
389.5V and pack 'B' reads exactly the same at 389.5V. A very nicely
matched set of batteries that show no ill effects from last
weekend's 4 strong runs!
Bill Dube wrote:
>You also have to decide what losses are acceptable for the weight
(and money) you would save in wire. Bigger wire has lower
losses, >but it adds weight to the vehicle and cost to the vehicle.
As you go bigger and bigger, the returns diminish, especially when
you >consider how infrequently you flow maximum current. You also
give up some HP with smaller wire, but you must consider
the >HP/weight ratio of the drive package to know if you are
winning or losing by adding thicker (or thinner) wire.
I can't say this any better, and totally agree with Bill on this.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unless you're interested in buying multiple pallets
(4800 pcs per pallet), A123 does not have the
resources to respond to all of the interest in these
cells from individuals thinking of buying in small
quantities. It's that simple. They have addressed the
"tinkering folk" with the developer's kit marketed on
their website. And you would be required to
demonstrate you possess the ability to integrate and
manage these cells safely if you desire them in
quantity.
(Schlepping some lead into a rust bucket does not
qualify).
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have emailed them numerous times to find out
> quantity pricing and if
> this is a miss-print or if there is perhaps a
> difference but they sell 4
> for $66 also. (<soapbox> They just don't respond to
> emails anymore. Very
> Annoying. They ought to remove all the contact us
> and emails from their
> website and replace it with a phone number and an
> explination if they
> have no intention of returning them</soapbox>)
>
> It is a little awkward getting to that part of the
> site so here is the link
>
> http://www.a123racing.com/html/rcdevkits.html
>
>
> 129/6 = $21.50 per cell (or 110/6 = $18.33ea)
> 66/4 = $16.50 per cell
>
> Maybe $4/cell is the charge for tabs?
>
>
>
> Does the killacycle "ultralight racing battery" have
> an internal BMS?
> Since it appears to be a 2P4S A123 pack?
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> seriously. how many times do I have to say,"my wife works for the air
>> district"
>
>I'm sorry I'm missing your point. Just because she works at the air
>district doesn't make her (or you) an expert on tuning ICEs.
>Many of the things you've posted about ICEs make me inclined to believe
>that you aren't an expert, but I could be wrong.
>
When people think they have a great idea, they get defensive when critiqued,
even by those with much more experience. The EVDL is populated with EV pros
with hands-on experience, as well as EE's and other engineers with all the
theoretic knowledge, and plenty of people with lifetimes of ICE experience.
>> Look its an experiment. It will work or it won't.
>
>Absolutely, we are just trying to point out that it isn't as easy as many
>people think. If it was easy to build low emmissions gen sets, then
>someone would already be doing it.
>
>> Just because you guys don't know anything about ICE motors, don't assume
>> its a black box. I like things that go boom, and go fast.
>
>Now see, you are making an unfounded assumption. There are many people on
>this list that know a LOT about how ICE motors work.
>
>> Also you are not paying any attention to the most important green spec I
>> stated: I am more concerned about greenhouse gases than smog. If I do no
>> worse with smog, and a lot better with greenhouse gases, then I will
>> have done a good job.
>
>Well, if all you are worried about are greenhouse gases, then use a deisel
>engine and run it on veggy oil or biodeisel. Both have zero net C02
>production, i.e. the plants that grow the fuel consume at least as much
>C02 as the fuel produces.
>
My Ranger has had range in the teens lately, probably has another single dead
battery module, so until it gets to Blue Sky for testing, I have been driving
my project car for my son, an '81 300SD fed used Chinese restaurant oil; it's
filtered to 5 microns, but not much else is done to the car. Still has random
hesitation that may be air getting into the fuel line, but no smoking from the
tailpipe and a "zero carbon footprint" give me relief for the lack of EV grin.
>> So I challenge you all, given your monthly use of electricity and your
>> local generation mix, how many pounds of CO2 are you putting into the
>> atmosphere? It could well be that a high-efficiency genset is better
>> than your grid power.
>
>Highly doubtful. Large scale electricity production is almost always more
>efficient than small scale.
>Even coal burning power plants produce much less C02 per mile than a
>modern ICE, I believe I've seen a figure of around 10%.
>
I'm in Calif, too, so PG&E makes that data public knowledge, and we are *suppose
to be* better emissions overall than coal-fired, but I don't know any numbers. I
have deciduous trees in front of my house, and every view on google maps must be
taken in the summer, because you rarely see our roof on max zoom. All the
household activities (video games, PC, TV, etc) keep the daily use to 10kwh or
more -- maybe it will improve when the teenager moves out...
--- End Message ---
