EV Digest 6599
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Converting a mini classic
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Cheap Relay Recommendation
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: charging while driving question
by "Humphrey, Timothy H Ctr AFRL/IFEB" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Cheap Relay Recommendation
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Cheap Relay Recommendation
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Motor as Generator question
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Mike's Pinto Project
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: ***DHSPAM*** Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: how much 2/0 cable
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: ***DHSPAM*** Re: We Blow Things Up, So You Don't Have To...2007
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor as Generator question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Quick PFC20 question
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: charging while driving question
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Cheap Relay Recommendation
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Motor as Generator question
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Cheap Relay Recommendation
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Do batt "interconnect" cables see same current as "motor" cables?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Motor as Generator question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Mike's Pinto Project
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Motor as Generator question
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: charging while driving question
by john fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: gensets was charging while driving question
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Motor as Generator question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Shunt Motor question?
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Mike's Pinto Project
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Tesla Roadster test drive
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) EV Funding.
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Alternator to charge question
by "childreypa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Do batt "interconnect" cables see same current as "motor" cables?
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: EV Funding.
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden writes:
>
> On 24 Mar 2007 at 19:41, Ralph Merwin wrote:
>
> > Check out this Mini conversion done by an Engineer at Brusa:
>
> Just to be clear, that's not a "real" Mini. The Mini-Evergreen was a modern
> replica.
David,
Thanks for the correction. After following the link I realized that I've
seen this before.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm looking for a relay that I attach to the lead of a digital
multimeter and close when I want read pack voltage, around 180V DC max.
I can't seem to make Digi-key or JameCo's search return what I need.
Can someone recommend an inexpensive relay for this purpose?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As far a being bio-neutral... Remember you need to think from a planetary
point of view.... While it is true that burning corn releases the CO2 that
the corn has sequestered it has only been sequestered for about 6 months.
>From a planetary view that is about equivalent to a single breath. In fact
anything that is less than about a hundred years old is considered carbon
neutral on a planetary scale. It's the fossil-fuels being released that have
been kept out of the planets "life" for millions of years that are the
problem.
And you asked earlier about "my" greenhouse footprint... zero-percent, my
electricity is 50% hydro and 50% wind.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of john fisher
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 3:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: charging while driving question
Lots of answers and challenges...
not much time today.
Somebody should run some numbers on greenhouse gases per KWh per region. I
know the data is out there at the PIRGS or
state agencies. Skip the EPA they are still putting "greenhouse" back in the
official dictionary.
I haven't found anyone yet who has actually built a clean small engine for a
genset, though one engine builder thinks
using FI and a CAT would probably do. If it can be done, its attractive for
my spec to keep weight down. Maybe it could
also be used to get regen.
I haven't researched it, so common sense may be wrong, but I suspect that
very little bio-fuel is carbon-neutral. If you
are taking waste products and burning them, like kitchen grease, or corn
waste, it seems to me you are taking
sequestered CO2 from the bio-mass and putting it into the atmosphere. Doing
so might still be better than petro-fuel,
but it doesn't sound carbon neutral to me. However I am just extrapolating
and its OT anyway.
I'll note again, I am just building on paper. I may decide an
ultra-lightweight is just not do-able in my budget. Then
we'll just ride the bicycles and wait for an EV Smart car.
JF
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
I'm looking for a relay that I attach to the lead of a digital
multimeter and close when I want read pack voltage, around 180V DC
max. I can't seem to make Digi-key or JameCo's search return what I
need. Can someone recommend an inexpensive relay for this purpose?
Why would you need to switch this. The meter is high impedance, and
will not draw a significant amount of power from the pack.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver wrote:
Why would you need to switch this. The meter is high impedance, and
will not draw a significant amount of power from the pack.
The meter will be switched between two separate packs.
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been trying to figure out some way to regenerate (without switching field
polarity with a DC series system) when I realized that I don't really
understand what would happen when spinning a DC motor in reverse. (No surprise
here, there's lots of stuff I know just enough about to be dangerous- please
bear with me.) I do recognize that it seems okay to use well-built DC series
motors at higher voltages than they're rated at: presumably the insulation
values, etc. are good enough so it will work properly. But what happens when
spinning as a generator? Is there a way to take given motor ratings and use
them to determine generator performance? Would a motor used as a generator
output rated voltage only as it approached max rpm? Could tricks with higher
field voltage change things? Has anyone every done any tests in this area?
I know what Roland and a few others have done using alternator/inverter
combinations to regenerate and I think this is wonderful. I'd be even happier
to find a way to regenerate at higher voltages into the main pack and stick
with a DC/DC converter for auxiliary pack charging.
As usual, I appreciate any and all comments, advice, etc.
____________________________________________________________________________________
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Steve,
Could you comment on what you're setting your MAX RPM limit to for the 9's?
My thinking right now is around 5k'ish rpm. With that said a 3.07 would put me
right there at 110mph with 22.4" tires.
My only concern is the launch. A 3.07 is pretty low ratio reduction and I'd
surely be stressing all three pinion bearings in the 9" carrier, not to mention
the carrier housing itself. I'm going to spec a race built center section so
I'm hoping it will hold for a while. My next concern is the strength of the
assembly housing itself.
I see John's mentioned going to a built aluminum carrier (and maybe a whole
aluminum housing)
John,
Aside from the cracks around your pinion shaft carrier, how did the chopped
assembly housing from the '57 Ford hold up to the abuse? I've got this heavy
wall 9" housing from an '85 Bronco with the larger bearing journals and 31
spline axles. I'm thinking of having Dutchman shorten these axles for me and
just go with the stock (shortened) housing. The thing is HEAVY though, the
housing alone weighs 60 lbs. 22 lbs for each of the axles. I don't expect to
lose more than a handful of lbs due to shortening the axles and housing though.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> Steve Clunn wrote:
> I'm trying to pick a gear ratio for my 912 porsche with 2 warp 9's
> ,,, the transaxel spider gears let go , I welded them up and this
> lasted a few days ,, now I'm one wheel drive ..Wo now I'm doing a
> set up like Gone Postal did using no 60 chain with each motor
> going to each wheel , keeping the irs it looks like the 9's
> toqure is about 1/3 more per volt compared to the 8 so I'm
> thinking the gearing might want to be 1/3 higher to , Was thinking
> of the tango ,, they have 2 9's ,,, what was there best 1/4 mile
> gearing ?
> steve clunn
> > Mike Willmon wrote:
> > Pinto is in progress. Have the Z2K in hand, newly released
> > TransWarP9 AND WarP9 on order ala Ryan Bohm and George Hamstra, Ford
> > heavywall 9" housing and 31 spline axles getting ready for the
> > chopper, trying to peg the rear gearing so I can order a Curie 9"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Same here John. You got me into this. And now I'm into a second one. Don't be
checking out now ;-)
----- Original Message -----
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, March 26, 2007 9:12 am
Subject: Re: You Write so WE don't have to, WAS Blow Things Up, So You Don't
Have To...2007
To: [email protected]
> John, your posts are one of the reasons I started building my
> conversion, and the most inspiring for continuing to work on it.
> Keep them coming!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ben,
Lets say the battery is 7 inches wide and 10 inches long, then connecting
the batteries on the 7 inches width side will take about 7 inches of battery
link. And if you have four rolls of batteries on the 10 inches length side
then you will need about 10 inches of battery links to go from roll to roll.
For 26 batteries that are place all in one roll on the 7 inch side, then you
would need 25 x 7 inch = 175 inches. If you have two rolls than it will
take one 10 inch link plus 24 x 7 = 178 inches.
For three rolls, it would be 181 inches and four rolls, its 184 inches. Its
about 3 inch additional length per roll.
On my batteries I have two four foot leads coming of the battery to safety
disconnects, fuses and or circuits and shunts, so you will have to add
amount you need.
If your batteries are all in one group, with four foot leads, than its looks
like about 20 feet.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 1:30 PM
Subject: how much 2/0 cable
> How much battery welding cable does the average 26 battery car take?
>
> 25 ft or 50 ft?
>
> I already have the main runs from front of the car to back, (25 ft), but
> have to remake 26 inter battery connectors.
>
> Ben
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Tim Humphrey worte:
>
> Oh one more thing... John, I think you should consider doing some
> freelance writing for the car magazines.
Hey, I like this !!
"This is John Wayland reporting from Car & Driver....Stay Charged" he he
You could build up by posting past commentary and then pick up with a
regular column on the status of electric racing :-)
> Tim Humphrey worte:
>
> Don't go anywhere John. I used to be here just for your posts too. However,
> lately I've found myself searching for Husted's as well.
I too have been flagging both of these gentlemen's e-mails to pop up in red in
my Inbox. Although, I think Jim would be more at home writing for something
like a Prize Fighting Magazine. Now give it a little EV Racing twist and you
have now a second good EV Commentator. ("Hi I'm Jim", "and I'm John from Car &
Driver Test Reports", "and we both give this one a thumbs up.....")
I think the bright sunlight reflecting off the still falling snow is starting
to fry my brain :-O
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Frank John
> I've been trying to figure out some way to regenerate (without
> switching field polarity with a DC series system)...
With a series motor, you have to either reverse its rotation, or reverse
*either* the field or armature connections to make it generate.
> I don't really understand what would happen when spinning a DC
> motor in reverse.
It becomes a series generator. :-)
> Is there a way to take given motor ratings and use them to
> determine generator performance?
A motor and a generator are symmetric devices, i.e. you can't tell one from the
other. Voltage, current, power, torque, and speed are all about the same,
regardless of whether a given machine is being used as a motor or a generator
(*if* you have properly phased the windings, adjusted the brushes, etc.) A 100v
100amp 10kw motor is a 100v 100amp 10kw generator. The only difference is
caused by efficiency.
However, as a practical matter, most machines are optimized at the factor to
work best as a motor, or as a generator. With a DC series motor, this means the
brush advance is preset for motor operation.
Also, the controller for a series *motor* happens to be very simple. The
controller for a series *generator* happens to be quite a bit more difficult.
So, most series motor controllers do not include regen.
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
no need to wire in ground.
Rich Rudman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 4:34 PM
Subject: Quick PFC20 question
> I just got my shiny new Manzanita Micro PFC20 charger a yesterday!!
>
> I want to get this thing maintaining my Buggy batteries but I have a
> question. On the output side there is an Anderson connector and a
> unused green ground wire. Since my charger case won't be tied to the
> chassis of the buggy (seeing as how its fiberglass) should I connect
> the green wire of the output to frame ground?
>
> Thanx,
> Paul "neon" G.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 26 Mar 2007 at 15:27, Humphrey, Timothy H Ctr AFRL/IFEB wrote:
> As far a being bio-neutral... Remember you need to think from a planetary
> point of view.... While it is true that burning corn releases the CO2 that
> the corn has sequestered it has only been sequestered for about 6 months.
This isn't really 100% on-topic for the EVDL, and I realize that environmental
issues are of little or no interest to some EVDL members. However, there
are many others who do have these concerns, and even those who don't are
likely to be asked about them at some point. So I think a short thread may
be of value so that as EVers (or as some say "EVangelists") we can
compare electricity with other alt-fuels in an informed manner.
As I see it, it's very difficult for biofuels to be truly carbon-neutral. It
seems
as if they ought to be - plants absorb CO2 - but this is one of those cases
where the intuitive answer is attractive, and inaccurate.
The net energy of biofuels is controversial because farming as commonly
practiced requires substantial petroleum input. This includes fertilizers,
pesticides, and machinery. Different stakeholders spin these numbers in
different ways. Some actually argue that ethanol (for example) actually has a
>negative< net energy.
But even if you don't buy that, it's still pretty clear that "farm raised"
biofuels
are seldom really 100% carbon neutral.
It's true that carbon or petroleum energy sources go into the production of
almost any alternative energy. Even commercial hydropower may have some
petroleum input, even if it's embedded in the manufacture of the equipment,
or the use of fueled vehicles or engines by the producers (I don't know that
this is the case but I wouldn't be surprised). But California and Canada folks
are probably safe in declaring their hydropower closer to carbon-neutral than
any biofuel.
This is also the case with wind and PV. However, these systems have other
environmental impacts, and we >will< be asked about them. The good news
is that if you produce your own electricity from hydro, wind, or PV, you know
all these inputs and presumably can quantify them.
As I see it, the ability to make our own fuel from scratch and know 100% of
its environmental impact - even if not all of us actually "roll our own" right
now
- is the great advantage we EVers have over the biofuels crowd.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Bill Dennis
> I'm looking for a relay that I attach to the lead of a digital
> multimeter and close when I want read pack voltage, around
> 180V DC max.
Due to the high DC voltage and very low current (a "dry" circuit), I'd use a
reed relay. First example that Digikey had: Hamlin HE751A1210, coil 12v
1000ohm, contact SPST-NO 300vdc 0.5amps, Digikey HE126-ND, $2.18 each.
Reeds are available with at least a 1000v rating. For example, Hamlin
MARR5-22-33, 1000vdc 0.5amps, Digikey HE504-ND, $2.37 each. If you can't find a
reed relay already built for you with these high voltage reeds, make your own:
put two of these inside a solenoid coil (one for the + lead, and one for -
lead).
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would it be possible to use a series DC motor as a "straight" generator i.e.
feed directly into batteries (assuming batteries were discharged enough to pull
all output to battery voltage)?
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Cc: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 4:51:54 PM
Subject: Re: Motor as Generator question
From: Frank John
> I've been trying to figure out some way to regenerate (without
> switching field polarity with a DC series system)...
With a series motor, you have to either reverse its rotation, or reverse
*either* the field or armature connections to make it generate.
> I don't really understand what would happen when spinning a DC
> motor in reverse.
It becomes a series generator. :-)
> Is there a way to take given motor ratings and use them to
> determine generator performance?
A motor and a generator are symmetric devices, i.e. you can't tell one from the
other. Voltage, current, power, torque, and speed are all about the same,
regardless of whether a given machine is being used as a motor or a generator
(*if* you have properly phased the windings, adjusted the brushes, etc.) A 100v
100amp 10kw motor is a 100v 100amp 10kw generator. The only difference is
caused by efficiency.
However, as a practical matter, most machines are optimized at the factor to
work best as a motor, or as a generator. With a DC series motor, this means the
brush advance is preset for motor operation.
Also, the controller for a series *motor* happens to be very simple. The
controller for a series *generator* happens to be quite a bit more difficult.
So, most series motor controllers do not include regen.
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
____________________________________________________________________________________
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> I'm looking for a relay that I attach to the lead of a digital
> multimeter and close when I want read pack voltage, around
> 180V DC max.
An alternative to Lee's reed relay suggestion is one of many MOSFET
output optocouplers.
>From Digikey, the best buys appear to be either the AQY284S (0.1A, 400V
AC/DC), in the 4-SOP (surface mount) package for $1.69 if you want a
SPST-NO relay to switch a single wire, or the AQW214EH (0.1A, 400V
AC/DC) in an 8-DIP package for $4.29 if you want a DPST-NO relay to
switch both DMM leads.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like you're essentially asking "is motor current the same as
battery current?"
Answer being "Depends, but usually no: Motor current is generally higher"
Darin - at - metrompg.com wrote:
Let's say someone was contemplating hooking up a temporary 36v string
of 6v floodies to move a car a short distance (a few blocks) over
mostly level ground at low speed, and didn't yet have a proper set of
battery & motor cables made up.
Let's say he does however have in his junk pile enough mismatched
cables of various gauges and lengths to connect everything together.
So the question is: do the cables in the middle of a string see less
juice than the ones on the ends (the motor cables)? IE, is there any
logic in putting the "less robust" cables in the middle of the string?
Pardon the basic electrical theory questions... :)
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Frank John
> Would it be possible to use a series DC motor as a "straight"
> generator i.e. feed directly into batteries (assuming batteries
> were discharged enough to pull all output to battery voltage)?
No, in general. A series generator is a constant CURRENT source, and a battery
is a constant VOLTAGE source. If you connect them directly together, they fight
each other and you get an unstable, unpredictable current.
So, you need something to control the series generator's output, to make its
voltage match the battery's desired charging voltage. That's what the
controller does. It takes a low voltage, high current output from the series
generator, and steps it up to the desired battery charging voltage.
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 25, 2007, at 9:58 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm trying to pick a gear ratio for my 912 porsche with 2 warp 9's
,,, the transaxel spider gears let go , I welded them up and this
lasted a few days ,, now I'm one wheel drive ..Wo now I'm doing a set
up like Gone Postal did using no 60 chain with each motor going to
each wheel , keeping the irs it looks like the 9's toqure is about
1/3 more per volt compared to the 8 so I'm thinking the gearing might
want to be 1/3 higher to , Was thinking of the tango ,, they have 2
9's ,,, what was there best 1/4 mile gearing ?
Uh, volts don't make torque - amps do! I've seen some different charts
for the 9 inch motors but the one I have on my hard drive indicates
that the FB1 9 ADC makes about 25% more torque per amp. The ADC 8 inch
(and Prestolite MTC) charts I have show 64 ft/lb. at 400 amps, while my
FB1 ADC chart shows 80 ft/lb.
HTH,
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So... is it fair to conclude that the most effective way to regen at higher
voltages is to custom wind an alternator to get the output voltage high enough
to charge a traction pack? (BTW, my question about direct battery connection
was driven by the fact that higher voltage PV panels will be clamped-down to
battery voltage when directly connected to batteries. I was hoping a DC
generator might work the same.) Or is there an off-the-shelf solution?
Lee - I really appreciate your insight into what must be very basic questions
to you. It's tremendously beneficial to me. :)
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 6:07:05 PM
Subject: Re: Motor as Generator question
From: Frank John
> Would it be possible to use a series DC motor as a "straight"
> generator i.e. feed directly into batteries (assuming batteries
> were discharged enough to pull all output to battery voltage)?
No, in general. A series generator is a constant CURRENT source, and a battery
is a constant VOLTAGE source. If you connect them directly together, they fight
each other and you get an unstable, unpredictable current.
So, you need something to control the series generator's output, to make its
voltage match the battery's desired charging voltage. That's what the
controller does. It takes a low voltage, high current output from the series
generator, and steps it up to the desired battery charging voltage.
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
admitting that I haven't any expertise, I still don't get the point of your
argument.
Lets take the corn example.
The corn waste would get plowed under or composted or sent to the landfill, if it weren't converted to fuel. Now it
*might* turn into some methane in the ground, especially if the ground is wet, and that would be a greenhouse gas, and
it might be eaten by the neighbor's cow and thus to methane, but mostly its not turned into CO2, or am I wrong about
that? If you say that waste bio-mass is going back to CO2 passively, then I agree that we might as well make ethanol.
But I *think* that you are adding net CO2 unless you plow up a parking lot to grow your bio-mass. Again, I see the point
of bio-fuel, I am not trying to stamp it out. I might well use it myself.
I don't see any difference in the timing of when the CO2 was removed. Again my point is the CO2 in waste bio-mass was
already removed, before you made fuel. Is more CO2 put back into the atmosphere from using the fuel than composting it?
Good for you on your footprint. How do you get hydro, off the grid or pour your own? We are not doing well in our house,
and thats the genesis of our green car project.
-JF
Humphrey, Timothy H Ctr AFRL/IFEB wrote:
As far a being bio-neutral... Remember you need to think from a planetary
point of view.... While it is true that burning corn releases the CO2 that
the corn has sequestered it has only been sequestered for about 6 months.
From a planetary view that is about equivalent to a single breath. In fact
anything that is less than about a hundred years old is considered carbon
neutral on a planetary scale. It's the fossil-fuels being released that have
been kept out of the planets "life" for millions of years that are the
problem.
And you asked earlier about "my" greenhouse footprint... zero-percent, my
electricity is 50% hydro and 50% wind.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Absolutely, we are just trying to point out that
> (insert technological challenge of choice here)
> isn't as easy as many people think. If it was
> easy to build (insert technological challenge
> of choice here), then someone would already be
> doing it.
Amazing that society progressed beyond horses and buggies with this
mindset.
Interesting that this logic gets used against low emissions gen sets but
its converse gets used against GM's development of the Volt.
This is the most oddly pessimistic group of intelligent people I've ever
known, placing intense scientific scrutiny on one side of an issue but
dreaming of utopic electric power on the other, with seemingly little
correlation between. Let's see EVs good, Volt bad, PHEVs good, DIY
hybrid bad... it dizzies me.
Here's the truth as I see it:
* identify YOUR goals
* take what you can from discussions to match YOUR goals
* build to YOUR goals
* share YOUR results relative to YOUR goals
At every point, there will be someone willing to advise you based on
THEIR goals, but keep the focus on YOUR goals and you just may find a
success for YOUR needs.
If you start to mass market a product, then a wider scope may be
necessary, but not if you are doing it yourself for YOU.
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Frank John
> So... is it fair to conclude that the most effective way to regen at
> higher voltages is to custom wind an alternator to get the output
> voltage high enough to charge a traction pack?
What's "effective" is a judgement call, based on what you have, and what you
want to do.
If all you have is a series motor (and nothing else), it is possible to use it
for a generator. But it will require getting a series motor controller that can
do regen, and (often) readjusting the motor's brushes to a compromise setting
between an optimum for motoring and an optimum for regen.
The cost and difficulty of finding such a controller makes most people pick a
different motor; one that makes regen easier. Most other motor types are easier
to use as generators. Common choices are a PM DC motor (Lemco, Lynch, Etek), a
sepex motor (brushed DC motor with separately controlled field), or an AC
induction motor (and matching interter controller).
Or, a related solution is to add a second "motor" which is optimized
specifically as a generator. Common choices are a shunt generator, or an
alternator (perhaps rewound for pack voltage).
> BTW, my question about direct battery connection was driven by
> the fact that higher voltage PV panels will be clamped-down to
> battery voltage when directly connected to batteries. I was
> hoping a DC generator might work the same.
PV panels, like a series generator, tend to behave like a constant-current
generator. The difference is that you can't "suck" more power from the sun --
the PV panels self-limit the current they will deliver.
In contrast, a series generator connected straight to a battery will not
current limit by itself. If the battery tries to draw more current, the series
generator just increases the torque load on its shaft. It tries to stall
whatever is turning it, and tries to deliver *infinite* current, since there is
(almost) no resistance in the circuit!
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
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I put one of these aircraft generators on a garden tractor about 10 years
ago. Mine had two
large terminals connected to the armature and two small terminals connected
to the
field. I don''t recall that there were any other connections internal or
external. A
small battery charger won't run it. A 12-volt battery will. It will be
practically
a short circuit on the battery at standstill and will draw IIRC about 30
amps when it gets
up to speed. Have it tied down securely so that the torque reaction won't
make it roll
away.
The tractor used two 12-volt batteries for 24 volts. To start the motor, a
contactor
connected the field to 24 volts. It also connected the armature with about
0.2 ohms
resistance in series to 24 volts. After the motor started, a second
contactor shorted
the armature series resistance. There was no provision for varying motor
speed. The
tractor transmission was hydrostatic and could provide infinitely variable
drive ratio.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Weisenberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 11:41 AM
Subject: Shunt Motor question?
This is for those who have played with Shunt motors.
I bought a JH-29. No Nay sayers please. It was cheap
and with in my budget to get started in EV's.
The wiring per Surplus center describes the wires as
follows:
+ to (B) terminal with a jumper to (A) terminal
- to (E) terminal with nothing going to (D) terminal.
E-volks has + to (B) terminal - to (E) terminal.
Nothing to (A) or (D) terminals.
I do not have a controller, or batteries yet. I have
an old 6/12 volt 4 amp DC car charger that puts out
11.99 Volts DC. Verified by multimeter.
So in my excitement to see if this thing would spin I
hooked up the motor to the charger to at least see it
spin. No load just sitting on the garage floor. I had
a
switch hooked up to charger to turn it on and off.
I tried both of the above mentioned hook ups but got
no response from the motor/generator.
So my question is this.
1)Is my problem too low a current with the 4 amp
charger?
2)Or could be the (D) terminal has to be hooked up to
the (E) terminal so there is a current flowing on the
field?
The hook up of (A) terminal with nothing on (D)
terminal seems rather strange as most devices I have
worked with require both + and - to operate.
And not hooking up the (A) and (D) means no voltage or
current to the field coil. Which I was under the
impression it needs in order to operate.
I am an Electronic tech but Shunt motors are beyond my
knowledge and would appreciate any input as to what if
anything I may be doing wrong.
Converting a Honda CRX to a low voltage commuter for a
10 mile Round trip.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Looking for earth-friendly autos?
Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That too needs to be qualified a bit more too. I would really like to know
stall torque at zero RPM and maybe a curve that extends down to the 0 to 500
RPM Range. If I look at the curves for the WarP8 and WarP9 (because I have
both in front of me, and they are done at the same voltage of 72V) I see that
they only go down to 2000 + RPM.
At the same current of 325 Amps, the 8" makes 42 ft-lbs at 3250 RPM and the 9"
makes 70 ft-lb at 2100 RPM. What I really want to know though, is the torque
produced by each size motor at the same RPM, at say the critical launch RPMs
between 0 and (I have no idea) 300 - 500 rpm? These are the numbers I need to
do calculations on initial acceleration for say, 60 ft times and 1/8th mile
times. What little acceleration you get from 1/8th mile to 1/4 mile can be
fairly accurately estimated with a straight line approximation and/or more
accurately fit to a simple curve.
.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Monday, March 26, 2007 2:48 pm
Subject: Re: Mike's Pinto Project
To: [email protected]
> On Mar 25, 2007, at 9:58 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I'm trying to pick a gear ratio for my 912 porsche with 2 warp
> 9's
> > ,,, the transaxel spider gears let go , I welded them up and
> this
> > lasted a few days ,, now I'm one wheel drive ..Wo now I'm doing
> a set
> > up like Gone Postal did using no 60 chain with each motor
> going to
> > each wheel , keeping the irs it looks like the 9's toqure is
> about
> > 1/3 more per volt compared to the 8 so I'm thinking the gearing
> might
> > want to be 1/3 higher to , Was thinking of the tango ,, they
> have 2
> > 9's ,,, what was there best 1/4 mile gearing ?
>
> Uh, volts don't make torque - amps do! I've seen some different
> charts
> for the 9 inch motors but the one I have on my hard drive
> indicates
> that the FB1 9 ADC makes about 25% more torque per amp. The ADC 8
> inch
> (and Prestolite MTC) charts I have show 64 ft/lb. at 400 amps,
> while my
> FB1 ADC chart shows 80 ft/lb.
>
> HTH,
> Paul "neon" G.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quite a response to the article:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=3383
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just published this in my EVblog today... I think you may like it :)
I am a Chilean inventor?
I applied and was selected to a competition called .10 dynamic enterprises.
that searches for ten innovative but low risk proyect to fund them. I entered
the program with a proyect called .Enabling the electric car in Chile. and to
my surprise, I already passed the first cut. In two weeks I.ll be attending for
two weeks to some seminars at the end of which I need to present a more refined
proyect to a panel of judges. If I pass that selection, I will have to make a
quick .elevator pitch. to an angel investor and try to get selected.
The prize for the ten selected? A line of financing of around $6.000.000
(around US$11000) to build a business plan and a working prototype and apply to
the next funding step.
Ouch.
link: http://ev.nn.cl/?p=42
--
Eduardo K. | Roses are #FF0000
http://www.carfun.cl | Violets are #0000FF
http://ev.nn.cl | All my base Are belong to you
|
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So I have a question? If I want to charge a battery pack with an
alternator running on a drive motor, what voltage does this have to be
done at? Like, a single 12v battery is charged at 14.4 volts correct? So
what would a string equaling say 144v need? I read about a way to change
the voltage regulator on an automotive alternator to make this many
volts, and a lot of amps. Provided that this could be done, what would
be involved in getting the current produced to charge the batteries?
What electronics would be needed in between the alternator and
batteries? Thanks a lot.
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Do batt "interconnect" cables see same current as "motor"
cables?
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 14:39:21 -0700
Sounds like you're essentially asking "is motor current the same as battery
current?"
Answer being "Depends, but usually no: Motor current is generally higher"
I may be wrong, but my impression from his post was that he wasn't going to
use a controller at all - just hook the batteries and the motor all in
series. If that's the plam, then all the cables will see the same current.
Phil
Darin - at - metrompg.com wrote:
Let's say someone was contemplating hooking up a temporary 36v string of
6v floodies to move a car a short distance (a few blocks) over mostly
level ground at low speed, and didn't yet have a proper set of battery &
motor cables made up.
Let's say he does however have in his junk pile enough mismatched cables
of various gauges and lengths to connect everything together.
So the question is: do the cables in the middle of a string see less juice
than the ones on the ends (the motor cables)? IE, is there any logic in
putting the "less robust" cables in the middle of the string?
Pardon the basic electrical theory questions... :)
Darin
_________________________________________________________________
5.5%* 30 year fixed mortgage rate. Good credit refinance. Up to 5 free
quotes - *Terms
https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2a5d&s=4056&p=5117&disc=y&vers=910
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Wow, good luck! Though is $11k enough to build a prototype? I guess if you are
after an affordable electric car, it has to be.
- Tony
----- Original Message ----
From: Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 5:31:11 PM
Subject: EV Funding.
I just published this in my EVblog today... I think you may like it :)
I am a Chilean inventor?
I applied and was selected to a competition called .10 dynamic enterprises.
that searches for ten innovative but low risk proyect to fund them. I entered
the program with a proyect called .Enabling the electric car in Chile. and to
my surprise, I already passed the first cut. In two weeks I.ll be attending for
two weeks to some seminars at the end of which I need to present a more refined
proyect to a panel of judges. If I pass that selection, I will have to make a
quick .elevator pitch. to an angel investor and try to get selected.
The prize for the ten selected? A line of financing of around $6.000.000
(around US$11000) to build a business plan and a working prototype and apply to
the next funding step.
Ouch.
link: http://ev.nn.cl/?p=42
--
Eduardo K. | Roses are #FF0000
http://www.carfun.cl | Violets are #0000FF
http://ev.nn.cl | All my base Are belong to you
|
--- End Message ---
