EV Digest 6624
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Basic rectification question
by "childreypa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Flight of the ForkenSwift (and video)
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Arc Flash & Ark Blast Warning !!!!!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: Arc Flash & Ark Blast Warning !!!!!
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Arc Flash & Ark Blast Warning !!!!!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Motor temp
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Bob Schneveis' Walking Electric Chariot
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Flight of the ForkenSwift (and video)
by "Andrew Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Bob Schneveis' Walking Electric Chariot
by Mark Dutko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Arc Flash & Ark Blast Warning !!!!!
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Motor temp
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Basic rectification question
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Motor temp
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Basic rectification question
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Insurance
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Insurance
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Motor temp
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Motor temp
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Bob Schneveis' Walking Electric Chariot
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Bob Schneveis' Walking Electric Chariot
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: [EV] Flight of the ForkenSwift (and video)
by "Darin - at - metrompg.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Flight of the ForkenSwift (and video)
by "Darin - at - metrompg.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Introducing EVer from Brisbane, Australia
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Introducing EVer from Brisbane, Australia
by Rodney A <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm. Im no expert but from my EE class I have learned (and correct me
if Im wrong):
1. 120 v AC means that the voltage is in the form of a sine wave,
crossing the 0v potential line. If the voltage is single phase, there is
only one line, if it is 3 phase there are 3, with a 60 deg pahse shift.
An AC meter reads the Vrms (root-mean-sqaure) of a voltage. In which
case Vrms=.5*Vp where Vp=peak voltage. I have neer actually put this to
the test but that would mean that if you divide 120 by .5 you will get
the amplitude of peak of the sine wave. Now, DC meters read Vavg
(average). Vavg=.318*Vp. So, my suggestion would be to convert voltage
to peak and then to average to see what the DC meter will show. Things
change I with full wave rectification.
2. Adding capitance in the rectification ceruit will only smooth the
rectified "humps" in the AC peaks. Making the DC a very steady line with
no ripples.
3. I have thought about the alternator idea as well. I believe the
answer is yes. He is a link to site I think will answer some questions.
http://www.1stconnect.com/anozira/SiteTops/energy/Alternator/alternator.
htm
http://web.media.mit.edu/~nathan/nepal/ghatta/alternator.html
Anyway, Im just excited that I knew a tiny bit about your question. I
have my doubts about wether I answered the question you asked or if I
got jumbled up in my notes. Time for a real expert to correct me.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Frank John
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 6:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Basic rectification question
What DC voltage would one see if 120VAC was rectified i.e. would it
approach 170 or flatten out lower? Would adding sufficient capacitance
tend to make it rise? How would I calculate capacitor rating? I'm
wondering if an alternator (120 or possibly 240) could be used as an
inexpensive higher-voltage generator.
Thanks,
Frank
________________________________________________________________________
____________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Darin
Well congrats on the maiden voyage 8^) Always fun to
see an old motor getting another shot in life rather
than off to the old motor home 8^o
Now get those batts installed and tied down so when
you get bombarded with those impromtu EV meetings you
wont be holding a battery in your lap, hehe 8^P
Best of luck
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 4/2/2007 2:00:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Several Answers below
On Sat, 2007-03-31 at 03:11 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Yesterday I had my first and hope last flash arc experience. It was such
an
> astounding event I Google to learn more about what happened. Words do
not
> even come close to describing it. It was about as loud as a large m-60
> firecracker, blinding bright, and a very very hot expanding explosion.
People have poo-pooed your warning, saying that couldn't happen or an ev
situation couldn't be as bad as your references suggest.
When I searched on line there was very little information about Arc Flash
for batteries. I copied and pasted information from about 5 web sites. What I
did find was mostly related to industrial applications. Where the danger is so
extreme that even wearing protective gear and following all known procedures
will not protect from death as described in thus link
_http://www.powermag.com/archive_article.asp?a=24-CS_Arc&y=2007&m=february_
(http://www.powermag.com/archive_article.asp?a=24-CS_Arc&y=2007&m=february) .
I was not intending
to imply that an EV pack would be 8 sticks of dynamite or equal to the blast
described that in the link. To copy and paste was just an easy way to show
what I was finding. I could not find anything that was EV related.
I came across one site that said this could not happen at 120 volts but at
voltages over 120. Not much has been said by EV drivers about this danger. I
was concerned and hope to keep someone else out of harms way. Lee may be
correct the Amps a pack of batteries can supply may make this possible at
lower
voltages.
The biggest danger excluding electric shock with an Arc is the intense heat
to your skin, light damage to your eyes, and toxic smoke may have long term
effects. It depends on how close you are but an EV pack has more than enough
energy to give you some very serious burns.
Would you care to describe the results of your incident and what caused
it?
I was not taking anything apart there was nothing disconnected. Cause was
becoming complacent with working on high voltage packs. Short was with an
Insulated 75 Amp clamp of a small digital tester. I was taking readings of
each
battery and writing down the results. On my last battery I was readjusting the
clamp on the post to retake the reading. The small exposed area of the clamp
touched an adjacent post. The 26 battery arc to the 3 battery vaporized parts
of both posts and a good part of the testers copper clamp. There was very
little lead splatter most of it vaporized. It is amazing so much heat is
created with so little metal.
How many and what sort of batteries? What sort of conductors? What
vaporised? How far were you thrown by the explosion? Did it happen
inside? If so, is the building still standing?
26 AGM Trojan batteries at full charge 340 volts. The building is 40 by 60
feet with 16 foot ceilings was never in danger. I had nothing that could burn
near the pack except me. I cannot give a lot of details as I was temporarily
blinded four feet further back and in a state of shock. Wondering what in the
heck just happened and where did all the heat come from?
I've been listening here for nearly a year, and I've heard of a couple
of different shorted optima incidents. I'm quite willing to believe a
whole pack of batteries would make a highly unpleasant short circuit.
Can you describe what you would do differently to prevent the initial
short circuit? If the initial short circuit had occurred anyway, would
fuses or circuit breakers arrest the explosion?
So now I am aware of another danger besides being electrocuted. When the arc
has the right conditions can expand out with vaporized metals. This allows
the energy to super heat the air around it. The heat is intense and very
dangerous. I am not sure what can be done to protect your eyes from the flash.
I
would only wear 100 percent cotton clothes and full sleeve shirts even in
summer if I my arms are near a pack.
Someone recently described where they completely cover all the other
batteries with protective blankets. Before this happened I would have thought
that
was overkill. I now think that as a very smart safety precaution. I normally
disconnect every third or forth battery to keep the voltage under 60 volts. I
will most likely continue to do that and cover with safety blankets as soon
as I can get them.
There May be no way to 100 percent eliminate the chance of an arc flash when
working with batteries. Batteries cannot be turned off and mistakes or
accidents do happen.
To answer your question on what I would do different and fuses. I don't know
if fuses or breakers would be fast enough? In the past I was more concerned
about being electrocuted. I have my tools black taped but I don't feel
comfortable with that now. Increasing my safety measures is what I am going to
do.
Safer hand tools like socket sets for electric they are very expensive but I
have a different view of how valuable safety is.
Don
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was not taking anything apart there was nothing disconnected. Cause was
becoming complacent with working on high voltage packs. Short was with an
Insulated 75 Amp clamp of a small digital tester. I was taking readings of each
battery and writing down the results. On my last battery I was readjusting the
clamp on the post to retake the reading. The small exposed area of the clamp
touched an adjacent post. The 26 battery arc to the 3 battery vaporized parts
of both posts and a good part of the testers copper clamp. There was very
little lead splatter most of it vaporized. It is amazing so much heat is
created with so little metal.
It seems like a bad idea to have two terminals with 138V (23*6)
between them so close together that you can short them out with a test
clip?
Thank you for your cautionary tale though.
-Peter
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 4/2/2007 6:53:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> I was not taking anything apart there was nothing disconnected. Cause was
> becoming complacent with working on high voltage packs. Short was with an
> Insulated 75 Amp clamp of a small digital tester. I was taking readings
of each
> battery and writing down the results. On my last battery I was
readjusting the
> clamp on the post to retake the reading. The small exposed area of the
clamp
> touched an adjacent post. The 26 battery arc to the 3 battery vaporized
parts
> of both posts and a good part of the testers copper clamp. There was very
> little lead splatter most of it vaporized. It is amazing so much heat is
> created with so little metal.
It seems like a bad idea to have two terminals with 138V (23*6)
between them so close together that you can short them out with a test
clip?
12 volt batteries 23*13 276 volts. Lay out of the batteries was not done by
me. It was most likely the only way they would fit in.
Thank you for your cautionary tale though.
-Peter
--
www.electric-lemon.com
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think reading the rotor(armature) temperature could maybe be handled
non contact, like they read tire pressures only optically instead of RF
because of the magnetic field.
Create a ring that contains a simple transmitter that transmits a
squarewave whose frequency is determined by the temperature to an
infrared LED(on the non commutated end of the motor? or protected behind
a shield). As the led passes a stationary photo transistor, use a freq
to voltage conversion to read the temperature.
just a thought
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Say what you want but EVery time I see the video or
see this thread I think "I want one" 8^)
They have small local parades here and stuff that I
think that thing would be a huge hit in. Very unique
and fun!
I can personally see myself driving it to work in my
little Spartan suit and spear accessories 8^o
Who knows where to get blueprints 8^)
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great video. Didn't realize just *how* quiet it is until that truck
drove by.
"Jeez, there sure are some loud birds in that neighborhood..." ;P
On 4/2/07, Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hey Darin
Well congrats on the maiden voyage 8^) Always fun to
see an old motor getting another shot in life rather
than off to the old motor home 8^o
Now get those batts installed and tied down so when
you get bombarded with those impromtu EV meetings you
wont be holding a battery in your lap, hehe 8^P
Best of luck
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw it in person and I must say it's very impressive... Tall as well.
Mark
On Apr 2, 2007, at 7:07 PM, Jim Husted wrote:
Say what you want but EVery time I see the video or
see this thread I think "I want one" 8^)
They have small local parades here and stuff that I
think that thing would be a huge hit in. Very unique
and fun!
I can personally see myself driving it to work in my
little Spartan suit and spear accessories 8^o
Who knows where to get blueprints 8^)
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
______________________________________________________________________
______________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> It is
> amazing so much heat is
> created with so little metal.
Hey you should see what the racers can do with 360
volts and a brush spring 8^o
Sorry but I thought that was funny as I read it 8^P
You just let me know if you want me to start up on Ark
Flash Ark Blasties. It sure wouldn't be something
you'd want in your face! But then,I don't have that
problem, mine tend to happen a 1/4 mile away LMAO!
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torue Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Use wireless communication?
As long as the temp sensor and electronics (and battery) can
withstand the rotational forces, this would give you a chance
of communicating without introducing an error - though it may be
hard to get a piece of miniature electronics without adding error...
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 3:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Motor temp
At 09:31 AM 2/04/07 -0600, Roland wrote:
>To monitor the motor temperature components from the commutator,
>brushes and field windings, a person can use a non-contact infrared
>temperature probe that can be use with a DMM or a temperature meter
>such as a Fluke Model 80T-IR.
>
>I was thinking of using a transparent port in the brush cover and mount
>this unit to monitor the commutator temperatures.
G'day Roland, All
Although DMM accessories and hand-held infra-red thermometers are a useful
tool, they'd be almost impossible to use for testing other than on a dyno.
I have set up several IR thermometer transmitters over the years, one of
those would be very useful for condition monitoring, mounted in the brush
cover (assuming its' field of view missed the brush gear) with a remote
display.
You would not be able to use a perspex cover over the commutator, with the
IR thermometer outside, as the thermometer would just give you the
temperature of the perspex.
As the Maritime College motor is in part an academic exercise, they want all
thermal readings to be as accurate as practical, and (more
significantly) to have very low errors between the different sensors. To
this end I'm using type J thermocouples, all made from the one batch of
wire. They can take care of maintaining the wire type through to their
measurement instrument (for those who don't know, if you use normal wire
instead of thermocouple wire to extend the sensor of a thermocouple you
introduce an error equal to the difference between the temperature where the
instrument is and where the copper to thermocouple connection is made).
Using slip rings and brushes to bring out a thermocouple signal from the
rotor will introduce an error equivalent to the temperature difference
between one side of the brushes to the other. Since they are chasing
accuracy, I think that this will not be suficiently accurate.
Jeff has provided a method using a wheatstone bridge (thanks Jeff) that the
college could use to make a predictive determination based on RPM, load
and/or values in other parts of the motor.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's correct. But your question is vague. What do you need to do? I
assume charge a battery.
When AC is rectified, it's still half sine waves in the same direction.
It will start charging a batt when the sine wave voltage rises above the
batt voltage. The current will increase as it rises to its peak
voltage, how much depends on how much ballast (light
bulb/inductor/whaever) you include.
A cap is an effective yet still flawed way to make DC. They have to be
very very large to filter out the "ripple" on a batt charger putting out
many amps. However, large caps and low ripple mean huge surges on the
AC line. For example, say I want the output to be within 165V-170V.
The AC line only rises above 165V for a small time, like 10% or less of
the waveform, thus to produce a 5 amp DC continuous output it would have
to draw like 50 amp surges. Thus we may need additional filtering like
an inductor to mellow out the input surge. Still, the ratio of peak to
average current is fairly high, lots of undesirable harmonic content,
well undesirable but not necessarily a deal-killer for the design.
Danny
childreypa wrote:
Hmmm. Im no expert but from my EE class I have learned (and correct me
if Im wrong):
1. 120 v AC means that the voltage is in the form of a sine wave,
crossing the 0v potential line. If the voltage is single phase, there is
only one line, if it is 3 phase there are 3, with a 60 deg pahse shift.
An AC meter reads the Vrms (root-mean-sqaure) of a voltage. In which
case Vrms=.5*Vp where Vp=peak voltage. I have neer actually put this to
the test but that would mean that if you divide 120 by .5 you will get
the amplitude of peak of the sine wave. Now, DC meters read Vavg
(average). Vavg=.318*Vp. So, my suggestion would be to convert voltage
to peak and then to average to see what the DC meter will show. Things
change I with full wave rectification.
2. Adding capitance in the rectification ceruit will only smooth the
rectified "humps" in the AC peaks. Making the DC a very steady line with
no ripples.
3. I have thought about the alternator idea as well. I believe the
answer is yes. He is a link to site I think will answer some questions.
http://www.1stconnect.com/anozira/SiteTops/energy/Alternator/alternator.
htm
http://web.media.mit.edu/~nathan/nepal/ghatta/alternator.html
Anyway, Im just excited that I knew a tiny bit about your question. I
have my doubts about wether I answered the question you asked or if I
got jumbled up in my notes. Time for a real expert to correct me.
Paul
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Frank John
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 6:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Basic rectification question
What DC voltage would one see if 120VAC was rectified i.e. would it
approach 170 or flatten out lower? Would adding sufficient capacitance
tend to make it rise? How would I calculate capacitor rating? I'm
wondering if an alternator (120 or possibly 240) could be used as an
inexpensive higher-voltage generator.
Thanks,
Frank
________________________________________________________________________
____________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That would be tough, because there's EM noise many many orders of
magnitude greater than the wireless signal in there.
The rotation of the motor will cause serious fluctuations in the
intensity, and perhaps even doppler shift, of the received signal.
Ideally I'd recommend that noncontact IR. The main concern here though
is dust getting on the IR window. You won't be able to detect this
problem easily because it'll read like half dust temp, half target
temp. With it off and cooled down to ambient, it'll just read ambient-
exactly what you'd expect to read for that situation. So a temp 50F
above ambient would read as 25F above ambient. I expect brush motors
would have much more of a problem than brushless motors. But then if
it's a brushless like an AC motor, do you really need to read the rotor
temperature in the first place?
Also I have my doubts about being able to read a copper commutator's
temp at all with IR. I'd have to hear from somebody "in the know" or do
experiments to be sure. As I understand it, polished copper has a very
high IR reflectivity. If so it may give a reading that is more a
reflection of the housing's temp than its own radiation. But honestly I
am not qualified to say if it's actually a problem or not.
Danny
Cor van de Water wrote:
Use wireless communication?
As long as the temp sensor and electronics (and battery) can
withstand the rotational forces, this would give you a chance
of communicating without introducing an error - though it may be
hard to get a piece of miniature electronics without adding error...
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 3:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Motor temp
At 09:31 AM 2/04/07 -0600, Roland wrote:
To monitor the motor temperature components from the commutator,
brushes and field windings, a person can use a non-contact infrared
temperature probe that can be use with a DMM or a temperature meter
such as a Fluke Model 80T-IR.
I was thinking of using a transparent port in the brush cover and mount
this unit to monitor the commutator temperatures.
G'day Roland, All
Although DMM accessories and hand-held infra-red thermometers are a useful
tool, they'd be almost impossible to use for testing other than on a dyno.
I have set up several IR thermometer transmitters over the years, one of
those would be very useful for condition monitoring, mounted in the brush
cover (assuming its' field of view missed the brush gear) with a remote
display.
You would not be able to use a perspex cover over the commutator, with the
IR thermometer outside, as the thermometer would just give you the
temperature of the perspex.
As the Maritime College motor is in part an academic exercise, they want all
thermal readings to be as accurate as practical, and (more
significantly) to have very low errors between the different sensors. To
this end I'm using type J thermocouples, all made from the one batch of
wire. They can take care of maintaining the wire type through to their
measurement instrument (for those who don't know, if you use normal wire
instead of thermocouple wire to extend the sensor of a thermocouple you
introduce an error equal to the difference between the temperature where the
instrument is and where the copper to thermocouple connection is made).
Using slip rings and brushes to bring out a thermocouple signal from the
rotor will introduce an error equivalent to the temperature difference
between one side of the brushes to the other. Since they are chasing
accuracy, I think that this will not be suficiently accurate.
Jeff has provided a method using a wheatstone bridge (thanks Jeff) that the
college could use to make a predictive determination based on RPM, load
and/or values in other parts of the motor.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't say much about the theory, but in practice, 120 VAC from the wall turns
into about 165 VDC when run through a rectifier. I only used it boosted with a
12 volt transformer (with the transformer voltage controlled by a dimmer
switch) to get the higher voltage I needed for my 156 volt battery pack, but
with the dimmer switch off the DC voltage was in the mid-160's. The power
factor is bad, though.
Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: What DC voltage would one see if 120VAC
was rectified i.e. would it approach 170 or flatten out lower? Would adding
sufficient capacitance tend to make it rise? How would I calculate capacitor
rating? I'm wondering if an alternator (120 or possibly 240) could be used as
an inexpensive higher-voltage generator.
Thanks,
Frank
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
---------------------------------
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Several of the big insurance companies now recognize 3 wheel e-cars. (They
don't require you to tell them the cc's of the bike's engine.) I haven't
seen any specific 2 wheel e-bike insurance, though.
The policy and coverage is the same as a similar sized ICE insurance... very
limited in scope.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eidson, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 4:30 PM
Subject: Insurance
> I have just about completed a built from scratch electric motorcycle.
> I've been looking for insurance coverage and have not found anything
> specific. Does the list have any recommendations for insuring such a
> vehicle? Thanks, me.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You have to use care to tell them it's electric. Some insurance companies
don't insure e-vehicles and it might cause problems collecting when you have
an accident.
----- Original Message -----
From: "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 4:43 PM
Subject: Re: Insurance
> here is 1 possible solution-as an example if it is a converted honda 750
> just register and insure it as a honda 750 with no mention of ev
conversion.
> m young
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is a lot of EM, but in a narrow frequency band the
amount of energy will be tiny, especially at very high
frequencies, so that is no concern.
(Comparison: you can make a cellphone call while standing at
the foot of a broadcast tower, even though the tower is
sending at a million times the power of your cellhone)
Doppler: even at 9000 RPM we only have 150 rotations per second and the
distance is only a few inches, so the doppler effect is minimal.
Signal fading can certainly be an issue, but that is easily
countered by repeatedly transmitting at a rate much faster than
150 times per second, for example 600 times will make sure the
reading is always sent within the 90 deg aimed towards you at
every rotation.
Since temp does not change very fast, battery can be conserved
by sending a short burst of signals during 10 ms, then
stop transmitting for a second.
But, as I said, finding a suitable and accurate temp sender will
be the issue. Not sure if the wireless outdoor sensors are good
enough for this experiment.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 8:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Motor temp
That would be tough, because there's EM noise many many orders of magnitude
greater than the wireless signal in there.
The rotation of the motor will cause serious fluctuations in the intensity,
and perhaps even doppler shift, of the received signal.
Ideally I'd recommend that noncontact IR. The main concern here though is
dust getting on the IR window. You won't be able to detect this problem
easily because it'll read like half dust temp, half target temp. With it
off and cooled down to ambient, it'll just read ambient- exactly what you'd
expect to read for that situation. So a temp 50F above ambient would read
as 25F above ambient. I expect brush motors would have much more of a
problem than brushless motors. But then if it's a brushless like an AC
motor, do you really need to read the rotor temperature in the first place?
Also I have my doubts about being able to read a copper commutator's temp at
all with IR. I'd have to hear from somebody "in the know" or do experiments
to be sure. As I understand it, polished copper has a very high IR
reflectivity. If so it may give a reading that is more a reflection of the
housing's temp than its own radiation. But honestly I am not qualified to
say if it's actually a problem or not.
Danny
Cor van de Water wrote:
>Use wireless communication?
>As long as the temp sensor and electronics (and battery) can withstand
>the rotational forces, this would give you a chance of communicating
>without introducing an error - though it may be hard to get a piece of
>miniature electronics without adding error...
>
>Success,
>
>Cor van de Water
>Systems Architect
>Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
>Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
>Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of James Massey
>Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 3:02 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Motor temp
>
>At 09:31 AM 2/04/07 -0600, Roland wrote:
>
>
>>To monitor the motor temperature components from the commutator,
>>brushes and field windings, a person can use a non-contact infrared
>>temperature probe that can be use with a DMM or a temperature meter
>>such as a Fluke Model 80T-IR.
>>
>>I was thinking of using a transparent port in the brush cover and
>>mount this unit to monitor the commutator temperatures.
>>
>>
>
>G'day Roland, All
>
>Although DMM accessories and hand-held infra-red thermometers are a
>useful tool, they'd be almost impossible to use for testing other than on a
dyno.
>I have set up several IR thermometer transmitters over the years, one
>of those would be very useful for condition monitoring, mounted in the
>brush cover (assuming its' field of view missed the brush gear) with a
>remote display.
>
>You would not be able to use a perspex cover over the commutator, with
>the IR thermometer outside, as the thermometer would just give you the
>temperature of the perspex.
>
>As the Maritime College motor is in part an academic exercise, they
>want all thermal readings to be as accurate as practical, and (more
>significantly) to have very low errors between the different sensors.
>To this end I'm using type J thermocouples, all made from the one batch
>of wire. They can take care of maintaining the wire type through to
>their measurement instrument (for those who don't know, if you use
>normal wire instead of thermocouple wire to extend the sensor of a
>thermocouple you introduce an error equal to the difference between the
>temperature where the instrument is and where the copper to thermocouple
connection is made).
>Using slip rings and brushes to bring out a thermocouple signal from
>the rotor will introduce an error equivalent to the temperature
>difference between one side of the brushes to the other. Since they are
>chasing accuracy, I think that this will not be suficiently accurate.
>
>Jeff has provided a method using a wheatstone bridge (thanks Jeff) that
>the college could use to make a predictive determination based on RPM,
>load and/or values in other parts of the motor.
>
>Regards
>
>[Technik] James
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
In general I don't see the heat issues I see in the
lift world on EV motors. In fact EVerything I've seen
to date points to a better running motor at higher
voltages concerning lift motors being used as EV
motors. In fact they kinda love it, within reason.
Here's my take, unless you're looking at using to
small a motor to begin with, or plan on lots of hill
climbing it won't be needed really. If you do it'll
be beeping at you all the time hehe.
You could save all that money and just buy the next
size motor up 8^P or maybe just plan on using a
blower 8^) I mean unless you just want to know what
temp it is running 8^)
In general, and with a pretty varied field of the
different motors being used, heat is not an issue 8^)
The only exception I've seen is Gone Postals motors
but then we are talking about the original "Motor
Satan" here ;^D Yup no one can toast a motor like
good ol pitchfork Rod.
Makes me want to put up monthly wanted posters for the
biggest motor killers out there (kind of an employee
of the month thing) 8^P. Gonna be a close race
between John and Bill for March I see, LMAO! EVen
these two don't over heat their motors.
John drive 20 minutes to the track not to mention the
shorter outings and he is still using one OEM brush
set from way back when they were recieved (I replaced
1 set after Woodburn cause some plasma'd spring got on
a lead and John threw a fit). Think about how many
times that motor's got hammered in what 4, 5 years?
Anyway just wanted to chime in that it'd be much wiser
to hook up a tach before accending to temp readings
;^)
A quick note to James and Jeff, the bearings will be a
good place to sensor, they are probably one of the
hottest points.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI- The blueprints are likely inside of Bob Schneveis' head.
You might not want to go there. FT.
> [Original Message]
> From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Date: 4/2/2007 7:09:12 PM
> Subject: Re: Bob Schneveis' Walking Electric Chariot
>
> Say what you want but EVery time I see the video or
> see this thread I think "I want one" 8^)
> They have small local parades here and stuff that I
> think that thing would be a huge hit in. Very unique
> and fun!
> I can personally see myself driving it to work in my
> little Spartan suit and spear accessories 8^o
>
> Who knows where to get blueprints 8^)
>
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Bored stiff? Loosen up...
> Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
> http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> HI- The blueprints are likely inside of Bob
> Schneveis' head.
> You might not want to go there. FT.
Hey FT, you know I'm thinking I'd probably like it!
BTW you got that shaft done yet? You're making me
look fast here 8^o
Cya
Jim Husted
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Eduardo -
Congratulations!
Thanks!
I have a question... are you still using the 36/48-225 amp curtis?
can you tell me how you wired the potbox? I have the same one, I think,
as you have and have doubts on how to wire it...
Yes, A Curtis 1204-410 36/48v 225A unit from a Club Car golf cart is in
the ForkenSwift at the moment. Roger Stockton gets credit for
deciphering the pot wiring based on this diagram:
http://www.studmonkeyracing.com/forums/cc48v.jpg
(Where "terminals described below are the 3 small connectors.)
> - pack +ve via the keyswitch, etc. to terminal #1 on the controller.
> This is the controller "KSI" input, and is what enables/powers up the
> logic. You must have the pot connected and set to
> a resistance corresponding to 0 speed before applying power to this
> connection.
>
> - the pot wiper connects to terminal #2 on the controller.
>
> - one end of the pot (the wide-open throttle end, I believe) connects to
> terminal #3 on the controller.
>
> - the other end of the pot (the idle end, I believe) connects to pack
> -ve. This connection is usually not present on a Curtis installation,
> but perhaps it is required by the Club Car controller flavour.
Good luck-
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Husted wrote:
Always fun to
see an old motor getting another shot in life rather
than off to the old motor home 8^o
Yep - thanks again for the advice getting those brushes set up.
Now get those batts installed and tied down so when
you get bombarded with those impromtu EV meetings you
wont be holding a battery in your lap, hehe 8^P
That's next on the list - honest! Like next weekend. AND a 12v house
battery too. (Because it's extra hard to do hand signals out the window
and steer while you're holding a battery in your lap.)
- Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Brian,
> I'm based in Brisbane, Australia and my aim is to convert a
Might want to drop Dave Gibson a line (his number is on what passes for the
AEVA national homepage http://www.aeva.asn.au/; I might be able to dig up his
email address and send it to you offlist). I believe he has started, or is
trying to start, a Brisbane branch of AEVA and might be able to put you in
touch with some other local EVers.
> Also, if there are any local EVers on this list I'd love to
> hear from you.
Don't know if there are any here from sunny Brisvegas, but there's a few of us
Aussies here for sure.
> One question: I've heard of the new Firefly lead acid battery
> technology. Is this likely to be available for use in EVs
> anytime soon or am I better off jumping in now with locally
> available lead acid batteries and swapping the pack for a
> Firefly pack when the initial pack dies?
If history is any guide, you'll tire of waiting for the next great battery. Get
moving with what's available now, and you'll be in good shape should some of
the promising technologies materialise *and* be available at mere mortal
budgets.
Cheers,
Claudio
Sydney AEVA - for Electric Vehicle enthusiasts in Sydney, Australia
http://sydneyaeva.googlepages.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi there
Yes, another fellow aussie here. Good to see there are
a few of us around.
I'm based in Melbourne (though I am considering moving
up to Brissy!).
Sounds interesting, let us know how your conversion
goes. I'm considering
the idea of a start up electric car company but am
still organizing finance
and working out the best way to do it. All those ADR's
make life a bit
difficult!
Cheers
Rod
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Claudio Natoli
Sent: Tuesday, 3 April 2007 5:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Introducing EVer from Brisbane, Australia
Hi Brian,
> I'm based in Brisbane, Australia and my aim is to
convert a
Might want to drop Dave Gibson a line (his number is
on what passes for the
AEVA national homepage http://www.aeva.asn.au/; I
might be able to dig up
his email address and send it to you offlist). I
believe he has started, or
is trying to start, a Brisbane branch of AEVA and
might be able to put you
in touch with some other local EVers.
> Also, if there are any local EVers on this list I'd
love to
> hear from you.
Don't know if there are any here from sunny Brisvegas,
but there's a few of
us Aussies here for sure.
> One question: I've heard of the new Firefly lead
acid battery
> technology. Is this likely to be available for use
in EVs
> anytime soon or am I better off jumping in now with
locally
> available lead acid batteries and swapping the pack
for a
> Firefly pack when the initial pack dies?
If history is any guide, you'll tire of waiting for
the next great battery.
Get moving with what's available now, and you'll be in
good shape should
some of the promising technologies materialise *and*
be available at mere
mortal budgets.
Cheers,
Claudio
Sydney AEVA - for Electric Vehicle enthusiasts in
Sydney, Australia
http://sydneyaeva.googlepages.com/
____________________________________________________________________________________
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