EV Digest 6636
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Contactor controllers, was:Re: Flight of the ForkenSwift
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Basic Clamper Math
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Arc Flash & Ark Blast Warning !!!!!
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV - radio interview - podcast available
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Pack Balance?- VRLA vs floodies
by robert mat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Regenerative Clamper
by "David Sharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Charging lithium-ion batts
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: KillaCycle Update
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Pack Balance?- VRLA vs floodies
by John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: History Lesson?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Preventing Motor Flash Over (was RE: KillaCycle Update)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: US Electricar group Deleted
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Charging lithium-ion batts
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: KillaCycle Update
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: KillaCycle Update
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) A motor named Damon
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Charging lithium-ion batts
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: KillaCycle Update
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: KillaCycle Update
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: KillaCycle; Word is getting out
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Regenerative Clamper
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: KillaCycle Update
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Charging lithium-ion batts
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Contactor controllers, was:Re: Flight of the ForkenSwift
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: KillaCycle Update
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: [EV] 357 MPH!!!!!!!!! an' Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:07 AM 5/04/07 -0400, Darin wrote:
Some kind of controller bypass - something like the GE EV-1 1A bypass -
might be worth investigating, so you have smooth when you want it, and
power when you need it. I wouldn't dismiss a 100% contactor controller
set-up either.
G'day Darin, and All
How about a contactor controller that uses the 48V Curtis as the first
step? Just switch its' input for 50% then 100% with external fixed
resistors for first two steps with current control from the Cursit? Bypass
it as the rest of the CC does its' thing up to (x) volts?
On the subject of contactor controllers, what do people do to get the cam
switch assembly that brings in the contactors? Would it be worthwhile to
come up with a potbox interface so that a standard potbox arrangement could
be used for controlling a set of contactors?
It would seem to be a simple "ask" to do, a pair of LM324's would give 8
steps. As something to be in an EV to be able to reconfigure a few things
and limp home with it may have an extended range of appeal?
Somewhat more complex would be to integrate a current signal to shift the
reference voltage to prevent the "higher" stages from coming in, to get a
simple current limit system.
Regards
[Technik] James
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If you want a cheap solution for a decently working charger,
especially when it is controlled by a smart balancer as in Lee's case
and runs for a limited time, then you can simply take a Toshiba
15V 4A laptop brick and use that as a basis for a battery charger,
you can reduce output voltage by adding a series diode, so it
will not supply much more than 14V.
I have verified that this supply is current limited, so it won't
burn up when a battery is 11V when you connect the brick to it.
Input voltage is at least 100 - 240V AC, which will make it
likely to run from packs of 144V and up, to a max peak
input voltage of 400V, which makes it run fine on my 312V pack.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 4:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Basic Clamper Math
Eidson, Mark wrote:
>
> Has anyone ever made a balancing circuit that charges the low voltage
> batteries with additional current rather than bleeding off excess
> current on the high voltage batteries. An off line switcher IC used
> for power bricks would make a fairly simple 2A 12V charger that would
> run off the pack voltage. me
Sure! There are lots of them. Commercial products include the Powercheq,
BattEQ, Badicheq, and Smoother. There are also many home-made examples, such
as my Battery Balancer (see
http://www.geocities.com/sorefeets/balancerland/intro.htm
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
At 09:17 AM 4/5/2007, Lee Hart wrote:
Car batteries traditionally don't have fuses. Thus we have a lot
more car electrical fires. For whatever reasons, designers have
decided to save $1 per car for a fuse and accept some cars burning
up every once in a while.
Sorry Lee, I don't buy that argument.
A batter fuse would need to handle the current needed for the
Starter. Even on tiny little 4 banger engines, that is likely to be
100A bursts.
Any fuse that can survive that, can easily survive a 20A short in the
car wiring - which is plenty enough to start a fire. And since most
car wiring is purposely undersize, it will burn before that big fuse blows.
That's why cars have something called a "Fuse Box". You may have heard of it.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cool. Thanks for letting us know.
On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 3:07 pm, Juergen Weichert wrote:
I was recently interviewed by a local radio reporter about electric
bikes. We rode around and he had a chance to sample several systems
that I have here. The interview followed the test rides and after we
went for a photo shoot.
The interview is now available on the reporters web site here:
http://web.mac.com/giacomo.panico/iWeb/Site/Home/Home.html
You can go straight to the podcast here:
http://web.mac.com/giacomo.panico/iWeb/Site/Podcast/609C9B25-9B66-4B64-A633-E44254B9C273.html
or download the mp3 version here:
http://web.mac.com/giacomo.panico/iWeb/Site/Podcast/609C9B25-9B66-4B64-A633-E44254B9C273_files/Power%20Assist%20Bike.mp3
It was all a lot of fun - really neat to see his reaction to riding
electric and his subsequent enthusiasm for all electric vehicles! :-)
Juergen
Juergen Weichert
613-746-7685
Acclivity Solutions
www.acclivity.ca
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
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What modifications do you need to the electrical system for a 10-bank charger,
while charging? I see that there is a marine switch that disconnects the series
connections when the battery banks are charged in parallel.
"Eidson, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am planning separate chargers for each of the 6 batteries for my
motorcycle. I'm using the charger recommended for the sealed batteries
I am using. I'm hoping that this will eliminate the concerns mentioned
below. For this number of batteries the cost looks to be the same or
less than a 72 V 25A charger and individual regulators or equalizers.
me
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of john fisher
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 11:39 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Pack Balance?- VRLA vs floodies
I am thinking this would be a solution for my project too, as a
quick&dirty BMS. I may only have 6-10 batteries so its economical too.
Anybody have a critique of the idea? Lots of talk in the archives
already?
Mike Phillips wrote:
> At least one EV owner here already does that. Maybe they will chime
> in. I think it's a great idea.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> -- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Dewey, Jody R ATC
> COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" wrote:
>> On my 10 battery 120V pack of Hawker Genesis 26AH batteries I was
>> planning on using a battery tender 10 bank charger to equalize my
>> pack daily. The tender would be mounted in the car and each lead go
>> directly to the terminals of its own battery. Does anyone think that
>> this method will help keep my batteries at peak?
The island-country of Kiribati will be sunk in 15 years
by climate change. May be one solution:
Newspapers and TV news coverage of
our 'no cost' battery for electric vehicles,
solving global warming and pollution at once..
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---------------------------------
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Having read about dissipative clampers why not a regenerative design? This
could take the form of a galvanically isolated "up" converter that returns
energy to the source when the required voltage trigger point is reached. For
many of us this would be a number of identical light weight 12V or 6V devices
rated at about 150 Watts each permanently installed across each battery. With
efficiencies approaching 80% only 30W would be lost at worst case for each
device in operation. A built-in LED would indicate which converter was working.
Perhaps we could commission a design & take orders to make it worth the
designers time. Moving further the same device could have a facility to charge
from the grid and it becomes a charger but then you dont need the "up"
converter do you?
David
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi guys,
I was just wondering if its possible to charge lithium ion batts with a
normal lead acid charger. Like say if i had about 13 volts worth or
lithiumion batts could i charge them with a regular lead acid charger that
puts out about 14 or 15 volts. Or would you need a charger like the
manzanita micro so you could adjust its voltage?
_________________________________________________________________
Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows Live
Spaces. http://spaces.live.com/?mkt=en-ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Uh, guys, Everything I have read says that it requires air with moisture
to form the low friction coating on the commutator. It is constantly
wearing off and being rebuilt as we run them.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found a number of marine chargers that have multiple banks of battery
connections. The Dual Pro brand seems to be popular with boaters and
claims that a multi-bank version will charge individually or in series.
These are in the $300-400 range for 10A X 4 batteries. Obviously this is
only viable for those with small numbers of batts. The marine aspect is
particularly good for my platforms, but I wonder if there is any
electrical down-side to this idea?
Anybody got an opinion?
JF
robert mat wrote:
What modifications do you need to the electrical system for a 10-bank charger,
while charging? I see that there is a marine switch that disconnects the series
connections when the battery banks are charged in parallel.
"Eidson, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am planning separate chargers for each of the 6 batteries for my
motorcycle. I'm using the charger recommended for the sealed batteries
I am using. I'm hoping that this will eliminate the concerns mentioned
below. For this number of batteries the cost looks to be the same or
less than a 72 V 25A charger and individual regulators or equalizers.
me
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I realize this is getting pretty far off-topic, but I think this discussion
has helped me understand why the starts and stops on the "L" here in Chicago
are so jerky. It's an old enough system that it probably doesn't have an
advanced enough controller to allow the smooth control of current to the
traction motors. It can only deliver a limited number of currents to the
motors. Can someone confirm or deny my suspicion?
Thx,
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Of course the series wound motors used in fuelpumps are "spark-less" ie
carbon on carbon.
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--- Begin Message ---
Mike> About a month ago, the main yahoo group for US Electricar EV's was
Mike> deleted without cause, or notice to the participants...
Something called uselectricar is there as far as I can tell:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/
In fact, I see two posts from today by Mike Phillips.
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
"The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You need to consult the makers of the specific battery as to what charge
methods they specify. The old laptop lithium ion batteries I used for
R/C were charged with a constant voltage with a current limit, which is
pretty easy to do, they suck up as much juice as they need and taper off
when they are done. so yes if your batteries are like mine you can use
a charger that puts out a max current within the bats limit and fixed
voltage, i.e. 4.2v per cell.
Jack
Tim Gamber wrote:
Hi guys,
I was just wondering if its possible to charge lithium ion batts with a
normal lead acid charger. Like say if i had about 13 volts worth or
lithiumion batts could i charge them with a regular lead acid charger
that puts out about 14 or 15 volts. Or would you need a charger like the
manzanita micro so you could adjust its voltage?
_________________________________________________________________
Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows
Live Spaces. http://spaces.live.com/?mkt=en-ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about continually variable voltage/amperage? High voltage is best
at low rpm? As the rpm's increase; have the voltage ramp down and the
amperage increase to maintain wattage? A software upgrade to the
Zilla?
Or is the Zilla already at max volts/amps in the Killacycle
application? What limits the Zilla to "2,000 amps" anyways?
What is the max voltage that could be handled at low rpm? I imagine
it's higher then 170 v? At high rpm, would sick amperage transfer
without arcing problems when at a lower voltage?
Remember "valve float" at high rpm? Are the brushes
floating(bouncing) off the comm at high rpm? What if a touch more
spring pressure was had? Sure a little less brush life, but if it
could no longer flash over..
Can a motor spin at red line with no load on it without it flying
apart? Hard mount a motor to a bench and pulley a small AC motor to
it and spin it up to max rpm with a cold motor and watch(either
remotely or out of the line of fire) to see if there is unwanted
movement occurring with the brushes.
Take an old case and remove most of the material to make viewing of
the inside possible and spin it up past redline and see if anything
grows(and make it so it can't)...
Hook up the motor dyno and experiment with the movable brush rigging.
When these motors were first designed, how did they arrive at the
thickness of the motor housing?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: KillaCycle Update
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2007 22:00:43 -0500
How about continually variable voltage/amperage? High voltage is best
at low rpm? As the rpm's increase; have the voltage ramp down and the
amperage increase to maintain wattage? A software upgrade to the
Zilla?
Interesting idea - but - you can't independently control voltage and current
at a given motor speed. If you apply a certain voltage - you will get a
current that depends on that voltage and the motor speed at the time.
Another way to say it is that there is a curve of voltage vs current for
each motor speed. That curve has a positive slope everywhere, so more
voltage always means more current. And - all you can do is decide where to
be on that curve.
As an example, if you try to apply high voltage at low motor speed, you
will get VERY high current - not a good thing for the motor, since its fan
is turning slowly and the resistive heating will be very high.
Phil
Or is the Zilla already at max volts/amps in the Killacycle
application? What limits the Zilla to "2,000 amps" anyways?
What is the max voltage that could be handled at low rpm? I imagine
it's higher then 170 v? At high rpm, would sick amperage transfer
without arcing problems when at a lower voltage?
Remember "valve float" at high rpm? Are the brushes
floating(bouncing) off the comm at high rpm? What if a touch more
spring pressure was had? Sure a little less brush life, but if it
could no longer flash over..
Can a motor spin at red line with no load on it without it flying
apart? Hard mount a motor to a bench and pulley a small AC motor to
it and spin it up to max rpm with a cold motor and watch(either
remotely or out of the line of fire) to see if there is unwanted
movement occurring with the brushes.
Take an old case and remove most of the material to make viewing of
the inside possible and spin it up past redline and see if anything
grows(and make it so it can't)...
Hook up the motor dyno and experiment with the movable brush rigging.
When these motors were first designed, how did they arrive at the
thickness of the motor housing?
_________________________________________________________________
MSN is giving away a trip to Vegas to see Elton John. Enter to win today.
http://msnconcertcontest.com?icid-nceltontagline
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
Well if you all recall I jumped on Damon during the
Ebay sale when he said my motors were only worth
125.00 (okay he didn't say that but it sounds better)
8^P
Well today he showed up with his son Mike to take me
up on my bluff 8^o This will be Mikes first motor for
his first EV and in addition turns 16 this Monday!
Anyway how do you say no to that? and they're doing a
Datson 8^) What can I say Wayland made me a fan.
This motor is a 6.7 ADC motor kind of a shorter lower
volt wound cousin to the L91 and in fact has the same
end plates but has a female splined shaft. Having
arrived and then been given the nickle tour I got busy
lining them out, starting with pulling the pump off
the motor,lol.
We gave a quick 12 volts to it and tested rotation,
bummer, CWDE. Well if we have to reverse the rotation
we might as well make it a true 4 posted drive motor
8^)
Mike did all of the disassembly and washed it and then
to the oven to bake dry. We discovered this motor
wasn't new but a Raymond rebuild. They painted the
pole shoes and inside housing though 8^o EVerything
else including brushes are all but new 8^)
Mike became a member of the armature shaft pressing
club removing and installing a new (L91) shaft all by
himself! okay I helped a little bit><, This one didn't
"pop" like some do that makes people jump usually 8^(
I lined them up with mount holes and advancement holes
and extra terminal holes and they drilled and tapped
away. They wanted a tach sensor so I through the
plate up and machined the hole.
All was looking good, perfect in fact till I saw I
marked the advancement holes on the DE side 8^(
This caused the armature to mis-align with the pole
shoes by 1/4". Well I happened to have the exact
motor so I offered to either mod this or start fresh,
they opted to mod this one. They seemed excited about
it actually and I'm wondering if they didn't flip the
housing over on me when I wasn't looking 8^P
At this point I had to step in and take charge a bit
more (hey at least I'm good enough to fix my screw
ups, LMAO) Well I nipped here and I tucked there and
I got it to line up like ADC did it themselves.
Anyway another great example of how important it is to
pay attention even when you think you know what you're
doing as well as the don't talk to me when I'm working
motto. Look at what you just made me do works to,
hehe.
Anyway 'ol Jim pulled a boner today I tells ya! All
and all I like the terminals closer together anyway
allowing shorter jumpers that don't have to span the
length of the motor just to pump terminals. I've done
a few case reversals in fact but it's a lot more work
and more than we had time for (I thought). One thing
about screwing up is it puts you hip deep so I just
dove in, no point fighting it.
Anyway I don't know about them but I'm beat! We got
the hard prep work done and heading into the primping
stuff. On a funner note I asked them what color they
wanted it? They just said black is okay. My laptop
kicks out misc. motor pics I've done. Having watched
it a while when I was on the lathe, Mike decided he
wants some color. Now he just has to pick one 8^)
Towards the end of the day Mike asked me if I name all
my motors? I told him not all of them but they are
all still my babies, hehe.
I called this post "Damon" but I'm guessing it's just
because this one's not named yet 8^)
I hope they enjoyed day one, face it there are better
places to spend spring break than at my shop 8^P
I can't think of a better purpose for it though than
helping a young man start his EV journey 8^)
Just wanted to share a story about a boy and his first
motor and how I'm gonna rip his heart out when I put
it up on Ebay for 125.00 LMAO!
What you thought it's gonna be a happy ending? hehe.
We'll post some pics when it's over...
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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--- Begin Message ---
It's possible, but it looks like a non-adjustable lead acid charger won't be
compatible with the 4.2v of laptop li-ion. On the other hand, it would be a
good match for A123 li-ion cells, which require 3.6V. 4 * 3.6 = 14.4V.
Don't forget you need to use a balancing and protecting BMS with li-ion, or
they will be fried.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: Charging lithium-ion batts
You need to consult the makers of the specific battery as to what charge
methods they specify. The old laptop lithium ion batteries I used for R/C
were charged with a constant voltage with a current limit, which is pretty
easy to do, they suck up as much juice as they need and taper off when
they are done. so yes if your batteries are like mine you can use a
charger that puts out a max current within the bats limit and fixed
voltage, i.e. 4.2v per cell.
Jack
Tim Gamber wrote:
Hi guys,
I was just wondering if its possible to charge lithium ion batts with a
normal lead acid charger. Like say if i had about 13 volts worth or
lithiumion batts could i charge them with a regular lead acid charger
that puts out about 14 or 15 volts. Or would you need a charger like the
manzanita micro so you could adjust its voltage?
_________________________________________________________________
Your Space. Your Friends. Your Stories. Share your world with Windows
Live Spaces. http://spaces.live.com/?mkt=en-ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil Marino wrote:
Interesting idea - but - you can't independently control voltage and current
at a given motor speed. If you apply a certain voltage - you will get a
current that depends on that voltage and the motor speed at the time.
The situation with the Zilla right now is the motor voltage is being
set at a fixed number(170?). The whole way down the track, 170 with
the amps capped off at 900 or 1000(why?).
How about 360 volts to the brushes at the start and scale it down
based on rpm using the sensor that goes to the hairball?
That curve has a positive slope everywhere, so more
voltage always means more current.
That's what I want, more down low with it being able to scale down as
to not hamper or limit high rpm. The 170 limit is a compromise. Or
is it 156 or some number?
As an example, if you try to apply high voltage at low motor speed, you
will get VERY high current - not a good thing for the motor, since its fan
is turning slowly and the resistive heating will be very high.
Put a fan on a switch and use it when needed:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_blowers.php
Jim said motor temp wasn't an issue anyways ;)
How about put a sprag clutch on the internal fan for street use so
when coasting, there is no parasitic drag from the fan?
http://www.atiperformanceproducts.com/links/pr/super-pulley/index.htm
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--- Begin Message ---
Those are maximum set point limits. Even though the voltage max setpoint is
170V, the averaged voltage the Zilla provides starts
out low enough to keep the current at its maximum set point. As the RPM's rise
and the current demand for that voltage decreases
and so the voltage is allowed to rise to keep the current at its set point.
You can see some graphs I posted at http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/ to see
the relationships as RPM's rise.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> Ryan Stotts wrote
>
> The situation with the Zilla right now is the motor voltage is being
> set at a fixed number(170?). The whole way down the track, 170 with
> the amps capped off at 900 or 1000(why?).
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey Bill
Thanks for the love and the link.
I couldn't help laugh though seeing Killacycle
billowing huge clouds of smoke on the Green Car
Congress though 8^o
For some reasone just tickled the hell out of me 8^)
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
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--- Begin Message ---
11:43 PM EDT April 5 Lets see if/when this post makes it to the list.....
The battery charge regulators I received with my 26 Thunder Sky 200A-hr
cells in 2003, work like this. When a cell reaches its maximum voltage of
4.25V, the regulator takes the power instead of the cell and boosts the
voltage up to the pack voltage, helping to charge the rest of the cells that
need it, without drawing more current from the power line. In effect 26
specialized DC-DC converters, sized to fit on top of each cell, are inter
connected by a custom made harness to fit my front and back packs layouts (I
wondered why he was asking so much detail about the layout.... This
daisy-chain harness links up the pack voltage, a 12V control signal and an
alarm signal line, between all the charge regulator modules. No LED though,
that would be nice.
On the other hand, your suggestion for modular chargers would have been a
pain to install all the 120V or 240V wiring and connections for 26 of them.
So a regenerative regulator has merit. If you want better reliability,
include a built-in, separate circuit monitoring the voltage to the design.
This over-voltage circuit will output an alarm signal to shut off the
charger in case the regulator can't do its job and the cell or battery
voltage rises just above the usual setting.
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Sharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 5:47 PM
Subject: Regenerative Clamper
Having read about dissipative clampers why not a regenerative design? This
could take the form of a galvanically isolated "up" converter that returns
energy to the source when the required voltage trigger point is reached.
For many of us this would be a number of identical light weight 12V or 6V
devices rated at about 150 Watts each permanently installed across each
battery. With efficiencies approaching 80% only 30W would be lost at worst
case for each device in operation. A built-in LED would indicate which
converter was working. Perhaps we could commission a design & take orders
to make it worth the designers time. Moving further the same device could
have a facility to charge from the grid and it becomes a charger but then
you dont need the "up" converter do you?
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can see some graphs I posted at http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/ to see >
the relationships as RPM's rise.
Let's say for example we had a semi-truck filled up to 80,000 lbs with
A123 packs paralleled in it to the point any volts/amps you wanted
could be obtained. What would be the fastest(1/4mile) motor(s)
combination when battery sag/limitations no longer existed(forget
about the weight/aero for a moment and just consider having a really
powerful, no limits pack)?
In the 1950's(possibly 1960's), there was a time when gasoline powered
drag cars used 2 or 4 motors. Today, any number down to 4 secs can be
ran using just one motor.
Tractor pullers still use multiple motors.
How can one motor beat multiple motors in this type of application?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MtUB1yI035g
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GrpXK7NOa9s
Certain types of boats might be in the same situation(single motor
unable to beat multiple motors)?
What I'm getting at is electric motors seem to be in a 1950's ice car
and current tractor pull type situation in that it seems to require
multiple motors be used to get the desired result. What keeps a
single motor from being "enough"? Will one motor ever be able to out
perform multiple motors?
After KillaCycle runs 7's on two motors; how fast could it run on 3 or
4 motors? Is there a single motor combination that could be faster
then multiple?
Coming from the ICE world, I just can't figure it out. How is more
better when the same is not true in a different application?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That contradicts what I've read about charging Li-ion.
Li-ion charging current drops as it reaches full charge, but it does
not stop.
The charger must immediately detect the full charge state by looking for
the drop in current (or, as a backup method, a timeout) and stop the
current. Li-ion is not tolerant of overcharge. It will quickly degrade
or damage the cell and can even start a fire.
It would be very unwise to tinker with charging li-ion with anything
other than strict adherence to the mfg specification. The cells are
easily damaged and expensive, and fire is a very real possibility.
Danny
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Murray"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: Charging lithium-ion batts
You need to consult the makers of the specific battery as to what
charge methods they specify. The old laptop lithium ion batteries I
used for R/C were charged with a constant voltage with a current
limit, which is pretty easy to do, they suck up as much juice as they
need and taper off when they are done. so yes if your batteries are
like mine you can use a charger that puts out a max current within
the bats limit and fixed voltage, i.e. 4.2v per cell.
Jack
Tim Gamber wrote:
Hi guys,
I was just wondering if its possible to charge lithium ion batts
with a normal lead acid charger. Like say if i had about 13 volts
worth or lithiumion batts could i charge them with a regular lead
acid charger that puts out about 14 or 15 volts. Or would you need a
charger like the manzanita micro so you could adjust its voltage?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi James;
I make my own cam switch setup. Made 3 aluninum discs about 2" in dia.
Hole in the center so I could put them on a shaft, a bolt with a nut on the
end. Had this in a little metal; box, drilled holes so the thing could
rotate, when hooked to the throttle cable, with a bell crank. Filed
"notches" in the discs, and mounted Micro switches on the box, the ones with
the arm and roller. Would adjust the cams by loosning the bolt until
rotating it I got the desiresd cam/contactor sequence, then tighten down
that end nut, to hold the adjustment. Other thing yu will need: A AC small
contacter, to open the Line switch contacter, and pull everybody else in, so
you are in full series for charging. And the car can't go in Full On! The
Early Electric Leopards didn't have that feature!Plugitin, and IF it was in
gear, away it went!Only time I had a problem with that controller was when I
had left a screw loose on the "Line Switch" Micro switch, it wouldn't pull
in. Embarrasing in traffic!
Doing contacter controllers is a pretty much do it yourself, for what
suits ya!
My two contacts worth
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 6:35 PM
Subject: Contactor controllers, was:Re: Flight of the ForkenSwift
> At 08:07 AM 5/04/07 -0400, Darin wrote:
> >Some kind of controller bypass - something like the GE EV-1 1A bypass -
> >might be worth investigating, so you have smooth when you want it, and
> >power when you need it. I wouldn't dismiss a 100% contactor controller
> >set-up either.
>
> G'day Darin, and All
>
> How about a contactor controller that uses the 48V Curtis as the first
> step? Just switch its' input for 50% then 100% with external fixed
> resistors for first two steps with current control from the Cursit? Bypass
> it as the rest of the CC does its' thing up to (x) volts?
>
> On the subject of contactor controllers, what do people do to get the cam
> switch assembly that brings in the contactors? Would it be worthwhile to
> come up with a potbox interface so that a standard potbox arrangement
could
> be used for controlling a set of contactors?
>
> It would seem to be a simple "ask" to do, a pair of LM324's would give 8
> steps. As something to be in an EV to be able to reconfigure a few things
> and limp home with it may have an extended range of appeal?
>
> Somewhat more complex would be to integrate a current signal to shift the
> reference voltage to prevent the "higher" stages from coming in, to get a
> simple current limit system.
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.25/745 - Release Date: 4/3/07
12:48 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let us get back to reality for a moment, please.
The Zilla holds the motor current at 2000 amps until it goes 100%
duty cycle and simply connects the motors to the battery.
Simultaneously, it limits the battery current to 1575 amps. To ensure
that we don't inadvertently go beyond the max power point, the
minimum battery voltage is set to 1/2 the open circuit battery voltage.
We run two small motors instead of one large motor for two reasons.
The rotational inertia of the two small armatures is less than that
of one large armature. Also, two motors allow us to configure for
series/parallel operation that effectively doubles the dynamic range
of the controller.
Bill Dube'
At 10:15 PM 4/5/2007, you wrote:
You can see some graphs I posted at
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/ to see > the relationships as RPM's rise.
Let's say for example we had a semi-truck filled up to 80,000 lbs with
A123 packs paralleled in it to the point any volts/amps you wanted
could be obtained. What would be the fastest(1/4mile) motor(s)
combination when battery sag/limitations no longer existed(forget
about the weight/aero for a moment and just consider having a really
powerful, no limits pack)?
In the 1950's(possibly 1960's), there was a time when gasoline powered
drag cars used 2 or 4 motors. Today, any number down to 4 secs can be
ran using just one motor.
Tractor pullers still use multiple motors.
How can one motor beat multiple motors in this type of application?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MtUB1yI035g
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GrpXK7NOa9s
Certain types of boats might be in the same situation(single motor
unable to beat multiple motors)?
What I'm getting at is electric motors seem to be in a 1950's ice car
and current tractor pull type situation in that it seems to require
multiple motors be used to get the desired result. What keeps a
single motor from being "enough"? Will one motor ever be able to out
perform multiple motors?
After KillaCycle runs 7's on two motors; how fast could it run on 3 or
4 motors? Is there a single motor combination that could be faster
then multiple?
Coming from the ICE world, I just can't figure it out. How is more
better when the same is not true in a different application?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [EV] 357 MPH!!!!!!!!! an' Stuff
> Agreed. I just rode one yesterday and I was amazed! Extremely
smooth
> and quiet. Makes a plane seem old and obsolete. The train I was on got
up
> to about 125mph as far as I noticed. I'm curious as to how much
electricity
> these amazing machines consume and if they use regenerative breaking (a
lot
> of potential there). Electric rail has a lot of potential for clean and
> fast mass transportation. I hope to see these trains competing with air
> transportation within the next few years. It's a shame there isn't more
> (fast) rail transportation used in the US.
>
> Brandon Kruger
> Hi Brandon;
Regen braking on trains? You Bet! It's been going on for 100 years or
so. Of course the newer lines are AC, which makes it a challange to regen
and put it back in the overhead wire. On the Acela, which I flew often, it
was fun to put the computer screen on , power system on ;Regen, and SEE the
amps going back in the wire! Could say to another train" I'll give ya a shot
of power" on the radio, and hit the brakes a little, seeing the power going
into the line! Fun stuff.
With the Best Govt. Oil Money can Buy, it is VERY unlikely you will see
it here. Sigh!Amtrak is getting cut back in funding while BILLIONS are
dumped into the Highwaymen's coffers!The rest of the loose change goes in to
Aviation funding. I guess that's why I'm hot on trains as i flew them for
years.
My two amps worth
Bob, retired Amtrak driver(engineer)
> On 4/4/07, Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 04, 2007 at 02:26:35PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > Hi EVerybody;
> > >
> > > Didya catch on the snewNews Media last night the record setting
TGV
> > (Train Grande Vitasse)or FAST train, in France. They pushed the steel
wheel
> > on rail record from 312 to 357MPH, this is REAL MPH not wimpy KPH's! The
TV
> > Clips of it going under an underpass with fans watching was like
watching
> > Zombie launch, I mean Thrill Factor! Giving new meaning to " If Ya
blink,
> > ya MISSED it!" No joke! Other heartstopping and warming shots were from
the
> > Head End, where the engineer sits, cat. poles FLYING toward you,
outdriving
> > your visibility in DAYLIGHT. I.E. IF there was anybody just walking on
the
> > track, you wouldn't have TIME to reach for the horn, or swerve<g>! He
would
> > be track pizza so quick!.Good thing they don't have grade crossings,
> > there!!!! Good windshield wipers would be a nessecity! A shot of the
drive
> > wheels just SINGING along, tracking Perfectly on a Perfect track.Oh so
> > BEAUTIFUL! The way God intended railways to work! Yeah, old steamers and
> > woody coaches are quai!
> > nt!
> >
> >
> > I rode in a ICE (Inter City Express) train in Germany last year. They
> > do very good energy management with speed and inertia. They go up
> > to 250kph and then almost all sound stops. Just wind and tracks.
> >
> > It slowly looses speed until reaches 150kph where they brake
> > to 100 if they have to pass thru a station they are not stopping or
> > just brake to a stop if they will.
> >
> > It was very well timed. They almost never had to re-apply power...
> >
> >
> > --
> > Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
> > http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
> > http://ev.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
> > | Minnie Driver, Grosse Point
> > Blank
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.25/745 - Release Date: 4/3/07
12:48 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
