EV Digest 6637
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Charging lithium-ion batts
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: History Lesson? Tunes an' Stuff.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Charging lithium-ion batts
by Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: KillaCycle Update
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: axial winding in motor is a better design ?
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Arc Flash & Ark Blast Warning !!!!!
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: US Electricar group Deleted
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV - radio interview - podcast available
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: History Lesson?
by "Martin Winlow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: EV - radio interview - podcast available
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: ' Spam arrest ' ! is it a genuine response to an email I sent
to evlist ?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: EV - radio interview - podcast available
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: US Electricar group Deleted
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: for what its worth
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Charging lithium-ion batts
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Charging lithium-ion batts
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Charging lithium-ion batts
by Marcin Ciosek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) For those who wanted to know about individual chargers
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: For those who wanted to know about individual chargers
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: History Lesson?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: For those who wanted to know about individual chargers
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: KillaCycle Update
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) UltraMotors designed e-bike, e-moped & e-threewheelers to be made in india
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: KillaCycle Update
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Basic rectification question
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
yes you stop charging once the current is very low.
The first point made is the important one, i.e. do what the battery
maker says, not what some dude says on a mailing list in a 20-second reply.
Danny Miller wrote:
That contradicts what I've read about charging Li-ion.
Li-ion charging current drops as it reaches full charge, but it does
not stop. The charger must immediately detect the full charge state by
looking for the drop in current (or, as a backup method, a timeout) and
stop the current. Li-ion is not tolerant of overcharge. It will
quickly degrade or damage the cell and can even start a fire.
It would be very unwise to tinker with charging li-ion with anything
other than strict adherence to the mfg specification. The cells are
easily damaged and expensive, and fire is a very real possibility.
Danny
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Murray"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:53 PM
Subject: Re: Charging lithium-ion batts
You need to consult the makers of the specific battery as to what
charge methods they specify. The old laptop lithium ion batteries I
used for R/C were charged with a constant voltage with a current
limit, which is pretty easy to do, they suck up as much juice as they
need and taper off when they are done. so yes if your batteries are
like mine you can use a charger that puts out a max current within
the bats limit and fixed voltage, i.e. 4.2v per cell.
Jack
Tim Gamber wrote:
Hi guys,
I was just wondering if its possible to charge lithium ion batts
with a normal lead acid charger. Like say if i had about 13 volts
worth or lithiumion batts could i charge them with a regular lead
acid charger that puts out about 14 or 15 volts. Or would you need a
charger like the manzanita micro so you could adjust its voltage?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:11 PM
Subject: Re: History Lesson?
>
> I realize this is getting pretty far off-topic, but I think this
discussion
> has helped me understand why the starts and stops on the "L" here in
Chicago
> are so jerky. It's an old enough system that it probably doesn't have an
> advanced enough controller to allow the smooth control of current to the
> traction motors. It can only deliver a limited number of currents to the
> motors. Can someone confirm or deny my suspicion?
>
> Thx,
> Hi Skip;
Your right. Probably older "El" cars your riding? They use the tried
and true contactor controllers. Lottsa small steps when starting out, going
from full series, 4 motors in each car, one on each axle. Contacters shunt
out the resisters as you take off. It goes into series parallel, with thre
resisters again and EVentually full parallel EVERY motor seeing 3rd rail
voltage, about 600 volts or so. It varies a tad depending on the operating
agency.How many OTHER trains are guzzling amps in your area?
The old song"Take the A train" puts, if ya listen closly, mimics the
stepping through a contactor control system on the old A train in NYC. It
went to Harlem, still does.NYC Still letters and numbers subway trains, I
think there are words, but I'm familiar with the Duke Ellington?
instrunental. I could ask the 78 RPM Listers, there IS one!Aint old records
great!I haven't found ANY old electric Auto songs, yet. Lottsa Trolley
stuff, 100 years ago, on records!
Taken the A train, before!
Bob
> --
> Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/
> "The hippies and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties,
> but the geeks pulled their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.25/745 - Release Date: 4/3/07
12:48 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lithium (ion, polymer, phosphate, etc) batteries require two mode charging -
first is CC - constant current where charger applies stable current
(acceptable for battery) and battery voltage grows. At the value defined by
cell's chemistry as maximum charger switches itself to CV - constant voltage
mode where by lowering applied current it keeps battery at maximum voltage in
order to charge it fully.
So using Lead Acid charger with constant voltage will charge your Li-ion only
partially (if you try to do it with 4 cells connected in series) or (if you
use less than 4 cells in series) you need to control every cell's voltage to
prevent overcharging.
Regards,
Marcin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The pulse width modulation protects the controller (at low motor RPM) since
putting a full 170VDC on a motor at 0 RPM will likely
pull more current than the controller can handle. But you would get more torque
from the motor if you could do that. If you had an
infinite power buss at 170V you would then run into current carrying capacity
of the wires in the coil as well as mechanical
limitations of the armature itself. I don't think anyone knows where those
limits are but suffice it to say that with battery sag
we are *currently* running in a battery limited mode.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 8:15 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: KillaCycle Update
>
>
> > You can see some graphs I posted at http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/ to
> > see > the relationships as RPM's rise.
>
> Let's say for example we had a semi-truck filled up to 80,000 lbs with
> A123 packs paralleled in it to the point any volts/amps you wanted
> could be obtained. What would be the fastest(1/4mile) motor(s)
> combination when battery sag/limitations no longer existed(forget
> about the weight/aero for a moment and just consider having a really
> powerful, no limits pack)?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks for the info .. are the Etek or PMG similar in
winding to the one shown in the picture on that webpage ?
(i could attach the pic if it is allowed on this list)
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Lots of motors use radial flux designs. The Etek, PMG, etc.
> > in this document :
> >
http://www.tifac.org.in/news/electric_vehicles/presentations/Shubangi%20Chip
> > lonkar.pdf
> > page 15 shows the design that bajaj auto intends to
> > use in its electric 3 wheeler
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What Lee is saying is a major fuse for the battery in addition to the regular 5
to 30 Amp fuses. This major fuse would be above the starting current and below
the battery's short circuit current.
This would protect things in cases where a wrench on the positive post hits the
negative grounded body; a mistake in jumping another car; or a wreck that
shoves both battery posts onto the hood.
The idea is analogous to your house that has a main breaker, but an appliance
on the circuit can also have its own smaller fuse or breaker.
----- Original Message ----
From: John G. Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, April 5, 2007 9:33:44 AM
Subject: Re: Arc Flash & Ark Blast Warning !!!!!
At 09:17 AM 4/5/2007, Lee Hart wrote:
>Car batteries traditionally don't have fuses. Thus we have a lot
>more car electrical fires. For whatever reasons, designers have
>decided to save $1 per car for a fuse and accept some cars burning
>up every once in a while.
Sorry Lee, I don't buy that argument.
A batter fuse would need to handle the current needed for the
Starter. Even on tiny little 4 banger engines, that is likely to be
100A bursts.
Any fuse that can survive that, can easily survive a 20A short in the
car wiring - which is plenty enough to start a fire. And since most
car wiring is purposely undersize, it will burn before that big fuse blows.
That's why cars have something called a "Fuse Box". You may have heard of it.
____________________________________________________________________________________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
request to bruce .. please save the hard work of many
and ask yahoo to help re-instate the deleted group
(i am presuming that it was not intentionally deleted by you)
thanks
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 7:01 PM
Subject: US Electricar group Deleted
> About a month ago, the main yahoo group for US Electricar EV's was
> deleted without cause, or notice to the participants, who had
> contributed blood sweat, tears, and dollars to keeping these EV's on
> the road. There were many thousands posts that were directly related to
> troubleshooting and repairing these EV's. This group as I recall was
> 5-7 years old.
>
> A second USElectricar group was started a year ago as the primary group
> was so hard to join, due to an automated scripting function that the
> owner had designed. So it sat stagnant. The owner has refused to ask
> Yahoo to un-delete the group. Yahoo will also not intervene without the
> owners consent. In about 3 weeks the groups archives will be purged
> from Yahoo servers forever.
>
> The original USElectricar EV group that was deleted is owned by Bruce
> Parmenter. He posts here regularly. I think the EV community has come
> together many times to keep vehicles from being crushed. Maybe they can
> come together to keep these vehicles from rotting away as well, by
> keeping the technological information flowing that prevents EV rust.
>
> Anything that anyone can be done to convince Bruce to bring the old
> group back, or even transfer ownership, will be doing these EV's a real
> service.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.26/746 - Release Date: 4/4/2007
1:09 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 3:07 pm, Juergen Weichert wrote:
> > I was recently interviewed by a local radio reporter about electric
> > bikes.
> > Juergen
having gone thru the website www.evco.ca i have an observation :
on this page - http://www.evco.ca/brochure.pdf a correction
is needed .. the english version french front page (right side)
and the french version has an english page
..peekay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From what I've read so far it looks relatively straight forward to design
and build a controller (a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing in the
wrong hands). So what Am I missing? What makes them so expensive? Why
haven't any of the many bright, intelligent and knowledgeable people in this
group put something like this together?
Thanks
David Hankins
David,
Have a look at www.belktronics.com for a cheap EV conversion controller (and
associated gubbins).
Regards, Martin Winlow
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think if its printed double side and Z-folded then when you open the French
side the next two pages are French, when you open
the English side the next two pages are English.
:-)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of peekay
> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:22 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: EV - radio interview - podcast available
>
>
> > On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 3:07 pm, Juergen Weichert wrote:
> > > I was recently interviewed by a local radio reporter about electric
> > > bikes.
>
> > > Juergen
>
> having gone thru the website www.evco.ca i have an observation :
> on this page - http://www.evco.ca/brochure.pdf a correction
> is needed .. the english version french front page (right side)
> and the french version has an english page
>
> ..peekay
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Spam arrest etc, are ill concieved attempts to reduce spam for some people
by trying to force everyone else to jump through hoops in order to get
their email through.
It's very short sighted and inconsiderate to use these services on an
email distribution list, especially one as large as the EVDL. Think of
the havoc it would cause if everyone on the list used them.
If someone is so rude as to use one of these services on this list, then I
really don't care if they get my email or not.
Personally, I've setup my email system to errase all email from these
services before I ever see it.
> " Spam arrest " ! is it a genuine response to an email I sent to evlist ?
>
> ("Mark Dutko", sender)
>
> I send this in case the "Spam Arrest" response is actually bogus
>
> Many thanks in advance for your advice
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hehehe... as someone whose family fought on both sides at Waterloo,
it's amusing to see French and English so "mixed up"... Yah have to
bless the French, `cause they supported American efforts at
independence (freedom), and gave us the House of Bourbon (any EVers
here from Kentucky?)
But more importantly, the French (France) chipped in to give us CEVEQ,
la Centre d'expérimentation des véhicules électriques du Québec:
http://www.ceveq.qc.ca/
tks
Lock
Toronto
human-electric hybrid pedestrian
--- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think if its printed double side and Z-folded then when you open
> the French side the next two pages are French, when you open
> the English side the next two pages are English.
> :-)
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of peekay
> > Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:22 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: EV - radio interview - podcast available
> >
> >
> > > On Thu, 5 Apr 2007 3:07 pm, Juergen Weichert wrote:
> > > > I was recently interviewed by a local radio reporter about
> electric
> > > > bikes.
> >
> > > > Juergen
> >
> > having gone thru the website www.evco.ca i have an observation :
> > on this page - http://www.evco.ca/brochure.pdf a correction
> > is needed .. the english version french front page (right side)
> > and the french version has an english page
> >
> > ..peekay
> >
> >
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Skip,
Yes, that is what Mike said:
> A second USElectricar group was started a year ago...
I had to start this group, after trying to join the old
USElectricar_ev Yahoo group for 5 months and being booted
after no response from the owner (his scripts ruled the
subscription process, did not provide feedback and without
the owner responding to problems, it was impossible
to subscribe. After many tries I did figure out that my
Yahoo email account (which I used for 30+ groups) was not
accepted by the script, so I used my work email to subscribe
and was accepted by the script as a moderated member.
This situation lasted for a couple weeks, my posts would
typically show up half a week after an issue was discussed
on the group, so I sent a message to the group owner to
un-moderate me. No response.
I sent another request and the only response I received was
that I no longer was a member of the group. Sigh.
I tried several ways to join again - no response.
To stop the process of me and other new owners not being
able to find help on their US Electricar EV, I started a
second group (after intense communication with other
group members and several more attempts to reach Bruce,
see the archives of this list as well.
It is my impression however that Bruce uses this list for
"POST"ing and finds no time to read the messages.
I appreciate his efforts in furthering the EV cause by
sharing information and even putting his own money in
subscriptions and spending his time in filtering the stuff,
but I do not understand why he has started several groups
for cars that he does not own and refuses to allow anybody
to help moderate them, so he has no choice then to leave
the members to the whim of a bundle of scripts that may
or may not make a just decision; frankly I find it
unrespectful to rule a group of people by a machine
running scripts.
I can only guess why Bruce chose to start groups and it is
also a mystery why he suddenly decided to erase so many
years of EV history by deleting the old USElectricar_ev
group - many members invested not hours or days but
weeks and months of their own time in building the
information in that group.
It may be that the membership was not increasing in
the old group while the new group, which has 3 active
moderators and several very active members, had surpassed
it in membership - I do not know.
What I do know is that the actions of Bruce are
damaging to the EV cause in the sense that EV knowledge
is willingly destroyed and all offers to salvage the
information and carry the burden of managing the group
are refused and ignored.
It is not a new problem - since early 2004 there have been
complaints voiced on the old group about new owners who
could not join, membes who had to play proxy to relay
requests from new members to the group and no response
from Bruce.
Summer 2005 I bought my US Electricar and tried joining as
well, eventually end 2005 I felt it necessary to start a
new group - I did not want to, but the situation with the
owner of the old group made it necessary, not for me but
for all new owners of US Electricars. I took several weeks
to discuss with other members and try again to reach the
owner of the old group, but eventually beginning 2006 I
had to start a second group, I have always hoped that some
day we could consolidate the two back into one.
Since that moment, now a little over a year ago, the new
group has grown to 66 members, mostly owners, so there
definitely is a need for the info we are sharing and
several cars are on the road ONLY because of this group.
One of our tools is a "Dead Truck Checklist".
This trouble-shooting decision tree uses references to
posts containing the solution in the old group.
Without that group's posts, the checklist is worthless.
This is just one of the examples of the reason to
preserve the old group.
I can only hope that Bruce finds time to respond and show
he cares for the people who are now hanging out to dry
because his image as EVangel is starting to crack with the
actions being the opposite of his words, turning people
away from the cause that he is proclaiming to promote.
That is not just my opinion - I received feedback from
several other people, outlining the damage that Bruce's
actions caused.
I did not get discouraged from this experience, since I
already bought my truck and needed to find help.
But others may not be so persistent.
Since I do want EVs to success, I hate to see the pain
some have to endure just to find their way among EV'ers.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 7:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: US Electricar group Deleted
Mike> About a month ago, the main yahoo group for US Electricar EV's was
Mike> deleted without cause, or notice to the participants...
Something called uselectricar is there as far as I can tell:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/
In fact, I see two posts from today by Mike Phillips.
--
Skip Montanaro - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.webfast.com/~skip/ "The hippies
and the hipsters did some great stuff in the sixties, but the geeks pulled
their weight too." -- Billy Bragg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the suggestion and reminder.
My motor has always had a vibration around 55 MPH,
so I may crawl under the truck, loosen the bolts and
see if I can better align the transmission/motor.
Only drawback is that I have an AC system, so it
needs 3-phase AC to run, in other words: it needs
to be hooked up to its controller.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Sharon G Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2007 3:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: for what its worth
There has been talk about trans problems in S-10s, I don't know why or what
went wrong, BUT, when I do an in house conversion, I built a test jig. I
made dummy of a wrap 9 motor, same as a ADC and warp 11, bolt pattern, I
have it run by a electric motor on the bottom out shaft, I cut the holes for
mounting the blank adapter plate to the dummy motor, then put the already
made coupler in the up shaft, bolt the plate to the motor, then sit the
trans on (bell housing facing the floor). Put 12 volts to the drive motor
and check run out on the trans input shaft, I use a dial indicator with a 4
in probe and tap the trans till it reads 0, YES 0 then clamp it down on the
trans mounting holes, and read again, if off, I re tap the trans to do a
check and bring it back to 0, yes 0. drill 1 hole to bolt the trans to the
adapter plate, check again, and tap to get back to 0, yes 0, then 1 more
hole 180 degrees away and bolt it, it WILL be at 0 again, After I have all
the trans mounting hols drilled and bolted in place. I draw around the bell
housing for a contour fit, put it on the CNC,,and presto, its done.
That's just me. I cant say how or why any one is having problems with
shaft alignment, I don't. If I have to send out an adapter plate and
coupler, with out a "on hand" trans I do the best I can, to get it set up
mathematically, usually almost dead on, maybe 2 or 2.5 Thous out, still with
in OEM specks . but that's just me Wayne ev-blue
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually I believe you've left out a third- and very important- stage.
When in CV mode and the current drops below a set point, the charger
should shut off entirely. That is not optional. Leaving it on will
overcharge the batts and bad things happen when li-ion overcharges. Bit
of perspective- when we talk about lead-acid being overcharged, we're
talking about something that could degrade part of the capacity and
lifespan over a very long period of time. Or you might have to add a
few mL of water to compensate. This is a "finer point" for long
lead-acid cell life. For li-ion, overcharging the battery could
irrevocably damaged it in a single charge cycle and could catch fire.
The exact algorithm is specified by the mfg. It varies by
ion/polymer/phosphate etc type as well as brand and model. Don't assume
you can just throw something together like you might for lead acid.
They're far too sensitive. Back to my original point- get the mfg specs
and stick with them as stated. Don't mess with a way to make it
"better". Don't cut corners on the alogorithm implementation thinking
something is a minor technical detail. Don't do something dangerous
like relying on a person to come by and shut it off manually when the
charge is done. Overtemp and charger timeout protection is really,
really a good idea.
These aren't at all impractical to do with some knowledge & experience
with circuits and especially a microcontroller. But rewiring a lead
acid charger or using a simple transformer with a resistor, zener, etc
is just not a level of technology that can possibly do this job at all.
It is likely to destroy the batts in a few cycles or could easily start
a fire. These aren't remote or hypothetical scenarios, with a crude
charger that's actually the most likely result.
If you don't have the skills but really want to use li-ion, I don't have
an answer to resolve this other than recommending you stick with
lead-acid. You could hire an expert or look to buy proper commercial
equipment but that may be cost prohibitive. All I know for sure is if
you hack together an amateur charger like you might with lead-acid, the
batts you invested in will be dead soon or your project could go up in
flames. Might take the house with it if you're not careful.
Danny
Marcin Ciosek wrote:
Lithium (ion, polymer, phosphate, etc) batteries require two mode charging -
first is CC - constant current where charger applies stable current
(acceptable for battery) and battery voltage grows. At the value defined by
cell's chemistry as maximum charger switches itself to CV - constant voltage
mode where by lowering applied current it keeps battery at maximum voltage in
order to charge it fully.
So using Lead Acid charger with constant voltage will charge your Li-ion only
partially (if you try to do it with 4 cells connected in series) or (if you
use less than 4 cells in series) you need to control every cell's voltage to
prevent overcharging.
Regards,
Marcin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
usual charging algorythm is 1C constant current to 4,2V then constant
voltage until current drop under 1/10 first phase current.
Going further damage the cell and can be dangerous (smoke/fire)
Less initial current is preferable for longer life
Cordialement
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait du volant, quel carburant choisiriez-vous
?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 3:34 AM
Subject: Charging lithium-ion batts
Hi guys,
I was just wondering if its possible to charge lithium ion batts with a
normal lead acid charger. Like say if i had about 13 volts worth or
lithiumion batts could i charge them with a regular lead acid charger that
puts out about 14 or 15 volts. Or would you need a charger like the
manzanita micro so you could adjust its voltage?
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--- Begin Message ---
A bit of explanation,
I assumed usage of an intelligent charger that will lower the charging current
in second phase to zero if voltage is high enough and current is below
certain level. But anyway, I'm glad you have brought it to discussion.
For personal use I can recommend purchasing small (universal) charger designed
for Li batteries. Before we've designed own charger we used Pulsar made by
ElProg (www.elprog.com.pl) and it was able to proper charge even 70Ah Li-ion
cell. Of course, for charging cells in series balancing circuit is required
as well as monitoring against overcharge one (or more) cells.
So, I agree with Danny - Li based batteries are very hard to handle.
Marcin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am one of the people who thought this was a good idea. So, I bought 10
isolation transformers from Surplus Center (they are now out of them) and a few
chargers. The idea works and works well, but several issues are:
1. You still needs good individual charging modules. The ones I got off
e-bay (Walmart Smart Charger) aren't sufficient. The fans tend to go bad, so
plan on replacing them (the fan's that is).
2. It's heavy I wouldn't use for more than a 120 V system.
3. It's bulky
4. It's a lot of wiring.
5. There are still a lot of potential failure points.
6. My "cheap" chargers aren't really that consistent charge to charge.
But, overall, it's a lot less expensive that a single "good charger" and a
set of real regulators.
My recharge while sitting in the parking lot through a spare set of 12 V
marine batts and 700 A inverter and my BC-20 regulated at no more than 5 A
seems to provide more benefit for me. Basically, the concept it just to keep
the pack at a higher state of charge. It's equivilent to recharging every few
miles. By the way, it also appears to work just fine, even if you leave it on
while driving.
Steve
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello all; This topic makes me ask and state. I want to mount a standard
5500watt generator on a two wheel trailer made just large enough to hold the
generator. When I want a little boosted range, or have the need to recharge
without an option of the GRID being available, I'd pull this contraption behind
the car, and have it cabled to the battery charger(s) in the car. I'd like to
run it, during travel even.
Currently I have a charger that will charge the entire pack at once, but am
intriqued with the idea of having an individual charger on each battery
instead. Could I by using blocking diodes on the DC charger leads, just
connect a charger to each battery as needed and do this?
Would several chargers, capable of 10amps per battery charging at the same
time, be better than 1 charger charging the entire pack at 10amps?
Thanks;
Mike
Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I am one of the people who thought this was a good idea. So, I bought 10
isolation transformers from Surplus Center (they are now out of them) and a few
chargers. The idea works and works well, but several issues are:
1. You still needs good individual charging modules. The ones I got off e-bay
(Walmart Smart Charger) aren't sufficient. The fans tend to go bad, so plan on
replacing them (the fan's that is).
2. It's heavy I wouldn't use for more than a 120 V system.
3. It's bulky
4. It's a lot of wiring.
5. There are still a lot of potential failure points.
6. My "cheap" chargers aren't really that consistent charge to charge.
But, overall, it's a lot less expensive that a single "good charger" and a set
of real regulators.
My recharge while sitting in the parking lot through a spare set of 12 V marine
batts and 700 A inverter and my BC-20 regulated at no more than 5 A seems to
provide more benefit for me. Basically, the concept it just to keep the pack at
a higher state of charge. It's equivilent to recharging every few miles. By the
way, it also appears to work just fine, even if you leave it on while driving.
Steve
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First it the increase maintenance on this type of controller. You may want
to hired a contactor maintenance person to do continuous pre-maintenance and
maintenance on and at every run.
I have one of these types of controllers in stock that goes back 40 years.
Today, if you want to duplicate this type of controller, the resistor that
have as many as 8 taps is as large as a truck radiator and its about 1 ohm
total at over 100kw rating.
There can be up to 7 contactors that shunt out each tap section of the
resistor which today may cost about $500.00 each factory cost for very good
traction type DC open frame re-buildable and adjustable contactors. I
prefer to use CableForm contactors, because the coils work on the pack
voltage and a 180 vdc coil can work on a over voltage to 240 vdc and a under
voltage to 11 volts. If the pack voltage ever gets down to 11 volts, than
these contactors will not come back on until the voltage is at 165 volts,
which is the minimum cutoff of a 180 volt pack any way.
Then you will need a drum switch (which you can still get from any of the
major electrical suppliers as GE or Westinghouse) that can either control
the coil voltages of each contactor, or use control relays using a smaller
joy stick type of selector switch, or use a big high ampere rotary switch to
select different battery voltages directly instead of using so many
contactors.
This last method of direct voltage selection, requires a switch that has a
make before break contacts, or you will have to re-finish the contacts after
each run.
This is why I do not use this contactor control, unless you don't have
anything else to do.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Winlow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 1:45 AM
Subject: RE: History Lesson?
> >From what I've read so far it looks relatively straight forward to design
> and build a controller (a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing in the
> wrong hands). So what Am I missing? What makes them so expensive? Why
> haven't any of the many bright, intelligent and knowledgeable people in
> this
> group put something like this together?
>
> Thanks
>
> David Hankins
>
> David,
>
> Have a look at www.belktronics.com for a cheap EV conversion controller
> (and
> associated gubbins).
>
> Regards, Martin Winlow
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Michael,
I have used multiple 12 volt chargers on smaller 48 volt vehicles with good
results. I pull 12 volt accessories off one of the 4, so have unequal
discharge and want to equalize the 4 of them. I think this could be expanded
to larger systems. This is what I use.
http://www.minnkotamotors.com/products/chargers/detail.asp?pg=mk440
Actually I currently use two of the MK220 chargers because they fit into the
battery try better. I did try the older style MK440 with good results. These
are made to charge 12 volt batteries still in the series string, so each output
is isolated from the others. Each charge output is individually temperature
compensated as well as fused. Chargers are made to be mounted on boats, so I
don't see a problem for onboard EV installation.
Might be a way for you to consider.
Jeff
And Steve,
You have a 700 amp inverter? Or 700 watt?
Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello all; This topic makes me ask and state. I want to mount a standard
5500watt generator on a two wheel trailer made just large enough to hold the
generator. When I want a little boosted range, or have the need to recharge
without an option of the GRID being available, I'd pull this contraption behind
the car, and have it cabled to the battery charger(s) in the car. I'd like to
run it, during travel even.
Currently I have a charger that will charge the entire pack at once, but am
intriqued with the idea of having an individual charger on each battery
instead. Could I by using blocking diodes on the DC charger leads, just connect
a charger to each battery as needed and do this?
Would several chargers, capable of 10amps per battery charging at the same
time, be better than 1 charger charging the entire pack at 10amps?
Thanks;
Mike
Steve Powers
wrote:
I am one of the people who thought this was a good idea. So, I bought 10
isolation transformers from Surplus Center (they are now out of them) and a few
chargers. The idea works and works well, but several issues are:
1. You still needs good individual charging modules. The ones I got off e-bay
(Walmart Smart Charger) aren't sufficient. The fans tend to go bad, so plan on
replacing them (the fan's that is).
2. It's heavy I wouldn't use for more than a 120 V system.
3. It's bulky
4. It's a lot of wiring.
5. There are still a lot of potential failure points.
6. My "cheap" chargers aren't really that consistent charge to charge.
But, overall, it's a lot less expensive that a single "good charger" and a set
of real regulators.
My recharge while sitting in the parking lot through a spare set of 12 V marine
batts and 700 A inverter and my BC-20 regulated at no more than 5 A seems to
provide more benefit for me. Basically, the concept it just to keep the pack at
a higher state of charge. It's equivilent to recharging every few miles. By the
way, it also appears to work just fine, even if you leave it on while driving.
Steve
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The motors would vaporize if you put 170 volts on each one at zero RPM.
At 11:54 PM 4/5/2007, you wrote:
The pulse width modulation protects the controller (at low motor
RPM) since putting a full 170VDC on a motor at 0 RPM will likely
pull more current than the controller can handle. But you would get
more torque from the motor if you could do that. If you had an
infinite power buss at 170V you would then run into current carrying
capacity of the wires in the coil as well as mechanical
limitations of the armature itself. I don't think anyone knows
where those limits are but suffice it to say that with battery sag
we are *currently* running in a battery limited mode.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
> Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 8:15 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: KillaCycle Update
>
>
> > You can see some graphs I posted at
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/ to see > the relationships as RPM's rise.
>
> Let's say for example we had a semi-truck filled up to 80,000 lbs with
> A123 packs paralleled in it to the point any volts/amps you wanted
> could be obtained. What would be the fastest(1/4mile) motor(s)
> combination when battery sag/limitations no longer existed(forget
> about the weight/aero for a moment and just consider having a really
> powerful, no limits pack)?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://tinyurl.com/yssutw
tells the story
..peekay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan,
I'll field one of your questions. I'm not sure who designed the motor, but
normally the motor housing, called the yoke in the magnetic circuit is sized
based on flux density.
Jeff
Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
<snip>.
When these motors were first designed, how did they arrive at the
thickness of the motor housing?
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, just wanted to say "thanks" for all your valuable input. You've given me
a couple of good ideas to pursue and all this is helping me learn more about
motors.
Frank
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2007 7:28:32 PM
Subject: Re: Basic rectification question
Frank John wrote:
> Lee, this is brilliant. How do I understand how much current might be
> generated and how to size components?
Look at the motor's nameplate. If it draws 10 amps as a motor, it will
generate (about) 10 amps as a generator.
> Are the motor leads simply connected to battery via some type of
> contactor?
No; you need a bridge rectifier to convert the AC from the motor into DC
to charge the batteries.
Also, you need enough big AC-rated motor "run" capacitors so the
induction motor sees a 0.8 power factor. The amount of capacitance
depends on the motor and load current, and so will have to be determined
experimentally. For a 120vac motor, it typically takes 10uf-50uf per
horsepower of motor rating.
Finally, an induction generator won't start generating unless there is
at least a little residual magnetism in the core. If there isn't, you
need to momentarily put a pulse of current through one of its windings
to provide this "starting" magnetism. Once started, it sustains itself.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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