EV Digest 6648
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Odd (or maybe not) Hybrid thought
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) sign off
by Thomas Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) how to insert single battery into 9 month old pack?
by "Deanne Mott" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
by "BadFishRacing" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) alltrax controller output
by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: "bulging" case a visual sign of a bad floodie?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Odd (or maybe not) Hybrid thought
by "Alan Gideon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Motor Question < David Hankins
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Sherry Boschert you go girl. A whole lotta time on Science Friday.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Intro
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: OT: SVO, was: EV APU (Biodiesel) emissions & FE
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Intro
by Steve Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Miles Automotive $30 000 sedan
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: alltrax controller output
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) A couple more KillaCycle video clips
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: C,mm,n (common) open source car project by Dutch universities
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Odd (or maybe not) Hybrid thought
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: "bulging" case a visual sign of a bad floodie?
by "Darin - at - metrompg.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: a wierd hybrid design .. or it is not wierd
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: a wierd hybrid design .. or it is not wierd
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
Is there anyway to get an idea how well a hybrid conversion like this
might work?
Here is my idea, kind of simple really. Take say an S-10 with a
manual trans. Remove the drive shaft and install one of the larger
Warp motors with the tail shaft setup, behind the original
transmission and couple its front shaft to the transmission
output. Have the original drive shaft shortened to fit to the back
of the motor. Install a modest battery pack in the front of the
bed. Add a vacuum pump for the brakes, gages, charger, and a
controller. Leave all the ICE components in place.
It would operate as a limit range pure electric with the ICE engine
off and the transmission in neutral. For gas operation, the engine
is started and simply put in the gear required and the main contactor
for the EV function is opened. For extra power, both could be run
together. A generator could be added to recharge the batteries while
in ICE mode.
With the extra weight it certainly wouldn't be as efficient as a
conventional EV conversion, but with all the original ICE functions
still intact it would also not be subject to the conventional EV
limitations either.
So, what do you think?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
See: www.patsypeterson.com
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EASY and FREE access to your email anywhere: http://Mailreader.com/
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like I will be replacing my melted terminal battery with a new
battery. I vaguely recall reading on the list on how to properly insert a
new battery into an older pack? But unfortunately I cannot find it in the
archives. Can someone offer some insight into how to do this properly? The
old pack (old meaning 9 months or so) has been sitting almost 3 weeks so is
somewhat discharged. Of course I'd like to be able to just stick the new
battery into the pack but I have a feeling it's not that easy...
thanks - De
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I see "racing" and "competition", I fear the
education component is about to go by the wayside, and
a teacher is about to get a note in the file, if not
fired, for failing to carry out state and
district-mandated objectives. That's our (teachers')
job.
Woah Bob. Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying "Racing" and
"Competition" is not educational?
Building a high performance high quality machine to beat the other
'company'?
Staying within cost restraints to develop a competitve machine?
Using innovative technologies to solve problems?
Team building skills?
Basic hands on construction, instead of just bookwork?
Pride in a job well done?
And that's just looking at the actual building of the car.
Then add in the fund raising/business management.
The website design.
Technical publications on the vehicle.
You can involve 80% of the school.
I know I could go on.
What part of this isn't educational? All of these things are critical to
the workplace. I know it might be a hard sell to some people.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have an alltrax 300 amp controller, but am a little confused by the output
Im getting. Any help would be appreciated: is there any way I can use the
output data or do I need to find another solution to track amps?
I have the alltrax max output current set at 75% so 225 should be the max
[300 * .75], however as can be seen in the output current [second to last
column] the amps are exceeding 225. What is more confusing is the high current
values with a low throttle positions
Sample output
TimeStamp ThrottlePos BatteryVolt OutputCurrent BatteryCurrent
26:42.8 0 47.4 0 0
26:43.8 0 47.4 0 0
26:44.8 26 44.9 281 73.8
26:45.8 37 43.6 290 108
26:46.8 45 42.7 303 135.5
26:47.8 55 41.7 316 172.3
26:48.8 64 40.9 330 212.2
26:49.8 70 40.2 321 225.3
26:50.8 73 40.6 294 213.3
26:51.8 72 41.1 268 193.4
26:52.8 75 41.1 272 202.7
26:53.8 93 38.2 360 336
26:54.8 93 38.5 343 318.8
26:55.8 0 46.7 0 0
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
---------------------------------
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:43 PM 8/04/07 -0400, Darin wrote:
The service manager at the company that sold us the parts for the
ForkenSwift also provided us with a number of free, used, 6v floodies
which we used to put together our test pack.
On some - but not all - of these used batteries, the top of the case
around one of the terminals has an upwards bulge (maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch).
What would have caused this? Is it a sure sign that the battery is
toast? Or will only a load test tell for sure?
G'day Darin, All
Old batteries grow their positive terminals, you'll find most likely that
yours have lifted positive posts, but the negative ones still where they
were put. The seal on the positive posts will be most likely stuffed -
you'll probably have a lot of "weeping" from around the post, so don't
mount them above anything you want to keep, unless you put them in
fibreglass boxes to contain leaks (which you can additionaly pack the
battery in place with bicarb to absorb any leakage).
From the limited testing that I have made of batteries in this condition,
you'll probably find significant loss of amp-hours. As long as the internal
resistance is not too high then they'll be fine as a test pack for short
range, if the internal resistance is too high then you'll risk blowing
cells under load, so make sure to check for severe dipping in voltage when
you try 'em out.
Hope this helps.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out the XR-3 at www.rqriley.com.
Standby for all sorts of flak on this list for suggesting that pure EVs
aren't the answer for all of us at the present time.
You might try http://www.cecs.missouri.edu/~rsun/hybrid.html for folks more
attuned to hybrids.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Chancey
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 5:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Odd (or maybe not) Hybrid thought
Hi folks,
Is there anyway to get an idea how well a hybrid conversion like this
might work?
Here is my idea, kind of simple really. Take say an S-10 with a
manual trans. Remove the drive shaft and install one of the larger
Warp motors with the tail shaft setup, behind the original
transmission and couple its front shaft to the transmission
output. Have the original drive shaft shortened to fit to the back
of the motor. Install a modest battery pack in the front of the
bed. Add a vacuum pump for the brakes, gages, charger, and a
controller. Leave all the ICE components in place.
It would operate as a limit range pure electric with the ICE engine
off and the transmission in neutral. For gas operation, the engine
is started and simply put in the gear required and the main contactor
for the EV function is opened. For extra power, both could be run
together. A generator could be added to recharge the batteries while
in ICE mode.
With the extra weight it certainly wouldn't be as efficient as a
conventional EV conversion, but with all the original ICE functions
still intact it would also not be subject to the conventional EV
limitations either.
So, what do you think?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:15 AM 8/04/07 -0700, you wrote:
David, I found this website: http://www.strathsteam.com/page10.html ,
this guy used an ETEK in his original conversion, then added a second Etek
to overcome heat issues, and then I believe went to the PMG-132
alltogether. I was impressed with how he mounted 2 eteks in the car.
I know the topic seemed to have died out on it's own, but thought David
still might like to see the ETEK in a car.
G'day All
And so the myth of the slow electric car gets propagated.... and one thing
that really concerns me is he's using and recommending that people use a
12V/200A isolating switch and a 12V solenoid (the REDARC brand he's saying
to use is for 12V systems) in a 72V system. Fom his photos he's also using
a 36V type fuse at 72V, too (and this is his "much better" new car!).
On the plus side it seems he's not overloading the suspension or the brakes.
$0.02 from the peanut gallery...(sigh)
Regards
[Teechnik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ira Flatow did ask a stiff question about the reality of the Volt. So it
wasn't a total fluff piece. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "MIKE WILLMON" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: Sherry Boschert you go girl. A whole lotta time on Science
Friday.
> What an excellent piece!!
> I will be forwarding this to a lot of people.
>
> I like the dynamite question...14 sticks of dynamite in a gallon of gas
:-O
> And of course Sherry didn't let GM slide on the timing of their planned
rollout of the Volt.
>
> I'm wondering if anyone else was sick to listen to the first part with GM
discussing their Volt.
> Too bad the GM folks weren't taking questions :-O
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Nick Austin <>
> Date: Saturday, April 7, 2007 1:42 pm
> Subject: Re: Sherry Boschert you go girl. A whole lotta time on Science
Friday.
> To: [email protected]
>
> > On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 02:20:34PM -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > > The second hour of Science Friday was devoted to plugin
> > vehicles, the Auto X-prize & the Chevy Volt.
> > <..snip..>
> >
> > > This should be available on the web as they have an
> > archeive/podcast......
> > http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/2007/Apr/hour2_040607.html
> >
> > Archived Audio:
> >
> > GM's Chevy Volt
> > http://media.libsyn.com/media/sciencefriday/scifri-2007040623.mp3
> >
> > green cars
> > http://media.libsyn.com/media/sciencefriday/scifri-2007040624.mp3
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for all the info folks. I'm looking at numbers and such right
now as well as taking into account the things you're telling me..
I'm assuming Uve's new EV Calc is reasonably accurate, or at least
will give me a baseline to work with, and looking at that, putting 24
SAFT 5-100 NiCD batteries in there, and using a small aerodynamic car
as the basis, I get something like 100 miles in the 60mph area. It
looks to me that this is a combination of the low Peukert's number, as
well as the low internal resistance, and the deeper discharge possible
as compared to Lead Acid.
Now thats just for a DC system, no regen braking at 144v, using a
zilla 1k, and an ADC motor. His AC stuff doesn't work, but from all
accounts the AC systems get 5%+ better efficiency because of the high
voltage, and you get regen braking built in, which will give another 2
- 4% range.
So, it seems that using SAFT NiCads you can get the range I mentioned.
The Marathon NiCads seem wimpier, and not all that much better than
lead acids. I'd need 4 strings of 120 of them, which weigh not quite
double the SAFT however it does give somewhat better range than one
SAFT string, of about 25%, so although SAFT strings would give better
range kg per kg, the problem of voltage means the BB600s would be much
easier to handle.
Of course, deal is you're talking about adding 2260 lbs to the car,
which means you have to beef up the frame and put in special
suspension components. I'm guessing that those additions will be
cheaper than a24x6 SAFT string, and an additional string of 12x12s to
bring the range up a smidge, considering one 5-100 MRE costs something
like $500+ :) Let alone easier to configure.
All of this is with DC components only and no regen, so I'm fairly
certain that I could squeeze the same range from an AC system, if not
much more. But, maybe with these numbers, I can go straight DC and
save a few thousand on the conversion.
I could also figure out how crazy of an idea it is to get a small
12x12 pack to function as an acceleration pack. Slap in some heavy
diodes and you should be ok, no? Assuming that is viable, it would
give a bit more range since the main pack would drain a lot more on
acceleration watt per watt than a pack designed to handle short, heavy
loads. Cheaper than Ultracaps, anyway :)
So, there is my rumination! Just so you guys know, I don't intend on
buying anything right now except the car itself, and maybe a few
components. One step at a time, and I don't currently have the whole
nut to spend! My house needs painting and my kitchen is being redone.
Woot.
--T
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll just buy a ready-made propane genset. I could get a kit, but it
doesn't seem to save any money.
Will check the legality, but don't much care about letter-of-law except
for liability issues and tickets. Sort of same attitude you guys have in
exceeding the stated gross weight of your donor.
I would never use a pusher trailer. Thats where *I* draw the line.
cheers
JF
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
3) propane is the likely first power source instead of gasoline. My
I believe that propane will be a show stopper for you. You can't legally
use a propane powered engine in car unless it's done by a certified
propane converter (which you are not).
Because of the overhead in getting the conversion approved, it's unlikely
that you will be able to convince a certified converter to design, test,
and certify a one-off project...unless you have really deep pockets?
You might be able to pull a legal fast one by towing a propane powered
generator behind an EV. But if you are planning on regularly pulling a
trailer, you might as well pull a pusher trailer and save the double
conversion losses.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/8/07, John Russell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Somewhere in the report it talk specifically about NOx. It seems that
NOx levels varied by the engine used and the duty cycle of the
engine. Some had lower levels with Bio and some had higher.
As a rule, Biodiesel has higher NOx, but not by very much and you can
eliminate that problem with a timing change on the engine.
Also, as the cetane level goes up the NOx levels went down.
If you could figure out why some engines had lower NOx and could
design for it then you could easily show an improvement in all
categories.
Also the report states that you get about a 2% increase in fuel
consumption, yet some people report getting better fuel milage with
Bio than Petro diesel. Why? I dunno.
The reason you get better mileage with Bio even though it has 2% less
energy than petro diesel is because it is very "lubricious" and is
also strongly solvent to carbon. Ultimately, the inside of your engine
looks like you could use the thing to make shakes and pancakes as the
Biodiesel dissolves the carbon off of every conceivable surface, and
it is really slick so your pistons move about easier. You get more
gain from that than the loss of total energy.
As far as emissions go, its true that BioDiesel has emissions
problems, however it doesn't belch out sulfur or heavy particulates
like petro diesel, AND it was made into oil last summer by taking
carbon out of the air to do it. Burning biodiesel is actually net
carbon negative if you use biodiesel to do the processing of itself,
because a good portion of the carbon gets trapped in the plant
proteins that are left over from BD processing and made into animal
feed.
I suppose you could work out the methane conversion ratios if you
really wanted to be.. ahem.. anal... :-)
--T
Biomass fuel info here:
http://journeytoforever.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
It's up to you, and AC Propulsion made a genset trailer out of a
motorcycle engine and some crack engineering that got them 35mpg in
the TZero so it can be done.. sort of.. but I've thought about this as
well and the more I think about it, the more I think that a cool
looking pusher trailer made out of a motorcycle back end and
engine/controls, would be much preferable to a genset trailer for long
trips. At least for a one off thing. And it would be so much simpler!
You could even do a nifty fiberglass canopy that is all SWOOSHY and
stuff and looks like bladerunner. :)
--T
On 4/8/07, John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'll just buy a ready-made propane genset. I could get a kit, but it
doesn't seem to save any money.
Will check the legality, but don't much care about letter-of-law except
for liability issues and tickets. Sort of same attitude you guys have in
exceeding the stated gross weight of your donor.
I would never use a pusher trailer. Thats where *I* draw the line.
cheers
JF
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> 3) propane is the likely first power source instead of gasoline. My
>>
>
> I believe that propane will be a show stopper for you. You can't legally
> use a propane powered engine in car unless it's done by a certified
> propane converter (which you are not).
> Because of the overhead in getting the conversion approved, it's unlikely
> that you will be able to convince a certified converter to design, test,
> and certify a one-off project...unless you have really deep pockets?
>
> You might be able to pull a legal fast one by towing a propane powered
> generator behind an EV. But if you are planning on regularly pulling a
> trailer, you might as well pull a pusher trailer and save the double
> conversion losses.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 2007-04-08 at 20:43 -0400, Timothy Balcer wrote:
> Thanks for all the info folks. I'm looking at numbers and such right
> now as well as taking into account the things you're telling me..
>
> I'm assuming Uve's new EV Calc is reasonably accurate, or at least
> will give me a baseline to work with, and looking at that, putting 24
> SAFT 5-100 NiCD batteries in there, and using a small aerodynamic car
> as the basis, I get something like 100 miles in the 60mph area.
I hate to say it, but see what happens when you use 1% grade instead of
0%.
--Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Go to the gallery,
http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/javlon-xs500-at-afvi/
then click on the 6th picture:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/photos/javlon-xs500-at-afvi/201744/
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Friday, April 06, 2007 12:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Miles Automotive $30 000 sedan
On Thu, April 5, 2007 10:05 am, Tom Watson wrote:
> Kert
> Thats real nice except for the exaust pipe and muffler hanging from
> the bottom!!! check the pictures Tom
> ----------------------
> I think most of you read ABG anyway but here goes:
> http://www.autobloggreen.com/category/miles-automotive/
Which pictures? The ones I see on this page don't show the rear (or
bottom) of the car. thnx.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> When I see "racing" and "competition", I fear the
>> education component is about to go by the wayside,
>> and a teacher is about to get a note in the file,
>> if not fired, for failing to carry out state and
>> district-mandated objectives. That's our (teachers')
>> job.
From: BadFishRacing
> Woah Bob. Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying "Racing"
> and "Competition" is not educational?
'Fraid so!
"All children are born scientists and engineers. Watch them at play; they are
experimenting, building, and learning. That's engineering! Then we spend years
in school squashing it out of them."
-- Geoffrey Orsak, dean of engineering, Southern Methodist University
The hardest part of our BEST program is to avoid the testing and "cookie
cutter" approach to education mandated by the government and school
administration. For the most part, we "fly below their radar". BEST gives kids
a direct, personal reason for learning -- they want to build things! And, we
spend more time teaching them *how* to think, and less on *what* to think.
In BEST, there are no tests; if it works, it's good, and the kids can judge
that for themselves. Copying or looking up answers is not cheating; it's how
you learn and move forward. There are no authorities; only experts.
The teachers we work with need to be comfortable operating outside the
"official" curriculum. It's getting harder and harder, as administrations keep
trying to micro-manage things ever more rigorously in the classroom.
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dale-
It's very timely that you should ask this question.
Last weekend I tested and saved several minutes' worth of data from my
Alltrax while trying out the several throttle response curves for the setup
on my boat (http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/492 ).
I, too, was confused about the output, which I analyzed in a spreadsheet.
First, in my case it appeared that a couple of the column headers were
swapped. It also appeared that I had more column headings than data (diode
temp had no data). Further, your data doesn't even show a "diode temp"
column heading, indicating to me that newer versions of the Alltrax SW added
a column for it. I was going to email Alltrax to ask about this.
Second, and to one of the main points of your question, I also found that
the throttle vs output readings were odd. Analyzing this, I found that the
throttle readings are definitely skew. In my case, the MIN throttle
position yielded a reading of 10.5, while the MAX throttle position yielded
a reading of 23.2 . It was easy to normalize this though, as:
ThrPos = (TPmeas - TPmin)/(TPmax-TPmin)
Which results in Throttle positions from 0 to 1.
I'm using an EZ-GO throttle position sensor and a linear throttle response
curve.
In your case, you show a TPmax of 93, much higher than the 23.2 that I saw,
so I'd guess with a throttle pot, the data is normalized from 0-100. You
may want to check the throttle response curve selected. I found very weird
response when I tried using the "inductive" response curve. Even the
"S-curve" response had a jerky response at about 3/4 throttle. So I'm back
to linear.
Third, the current readings....ahh, those were odd...the data I recorded
showed Iout as high as 286amps and Ibat as high as 275.9. While I was
initially tempted to think this was an 8-bit normalized output (0-255), when
I saw numbers exceeding this, I had to scratch my head. So I was
discouraged with the seemingly unusable numbers. Then I recalled that my
tests went to full throttle and that at full throttle the controller draws
about 130-140amps from the batteries. Seeing that the Max Ibat I recorded
was 275.9amps, I guessed that the stored data is 2x the actual current.
So that's how I'm interpreting it...In YOUR case, you had a max. Iout of
360, so I'd consider interprettig that as 180amps, which is less than your
programmed current limit. Perhaps as mentioned earlier, Alltrax updated
their SW for newer firmware and that for older firmware there's a 2x
difference. Again, another thing to ask Alltrax about.
Fourth, your data looks consistent with an acceleration profile. It looks
like you stepped on the throttle, resulting in high rise in current within
the first second, and then as throttle was continuously increased, the
current also rose some.
Hope this helps...
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of dale henderson
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 3:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: alltrax controller output
I have an alltrax 300 amp controller, but am a little confused by the output
I'm getting. Any help would be appreciated: is there any way I can use the
output data or do I need to find another solution to track amps?
I have the alltrax max output current set at 75% so 225 should be the max
[300 * .75], however as can be seen in the output current [second to last
column] the amps are exceeding 225. What is more confusing is the high
current values with a low throttle positions
Sample output
TimeStamp ThrottlePos BatteryVolt OutputCurrent BatteryCurrent
26:42.8 0 47.4 0 0
26:43.8 0 47.4 0 0
26:44.8 26 44.9 281 73.8
26:45.8 37 43.6 290 108
26:46.8 45 42.7 303 135.5
26:47.8 55 41.7 316 172.3
26:48.8 64 40.9 330 212.2
26:49.8 70 40.2 321 225.3
26:50.8 73 40.6 294 213.3
26:51.8 72 41.1 268 193.4
26:52.8 75 41.1 272 202.7
26:53.8 93 38.2 360 336
26:54.8 93 38.5 343 318.8
26:55.8 0 46.7 0 0
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
---------------------------------
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
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If you haven't already had enough, here are a couple more video clips
of the KillaCycle. The first one is the warm-up run (8.28) in the
early afternoon. The second one is the quickest 1/4 mile ever run by
an EV at 8.168 @ 155.87 MPH.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx_2dRCibAQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GKwHDQnK44
These are taken by me with my digital camera. Once it starts
recording, I can't adjust the zoom. I'm also not the best at holding
it steady. :-)
I also put up a few more pictures from the Firebird AHDRA event.
They are here:
http://www.killacycle.com/photos/ahdra-race-march-07/
Bill Dube'
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--- Begin Message ---
For an interesting view about open source and
innovation, check out this talk for TED:
http://www.ted.com/tedtalks/tedtalksplayer.cfm?key=c_leadbeater
BTW, TED stands for Technology Entertainment Design. www.ted.com
TED brings together more than 1000 thought-leaders in Technology,
Entertainment, Design, Business, Science and The Arts...
in Monterey, California every year.
Each year a few winners are selected, who get to implement their
ideas in the following year. Winners include a former president,
a rockstar (Bono), a doctor, an architect, a filmmaker, a biologist,
photographers and an inventor.
Ideas are often targeted at how to make this world a better
place by caring for the environment, equality between peoples
and distribution of knowledge and awareness.
I recommend you check out the movie from Bono, even though
it is kind of OT for this list.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 8:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: C,mm,n (common) open source car project by Dutch universities
Lee Hart wrote:
>> Indeed, I think *all* the innovations in the EV field (and most other
>> fields) come from small experimenters and hobbyists; not from big
>> companies. These small innovators invent, build, and test these ideas
>> themselves. Big companies just step in *after* the pioneers have
>> proven that the innovation works.
From: John Fisher
> This is really not supported by the evidence IMO. No scientific
> problems will be solved by home tinkerers (like me) and the real
> engineering problems center around manufacturing and cost, not design.
I think you would find it enlightening to study history a bit. Make yourself
a list of the greatest scientists, engineers, and inventors. Look up where
they were when they made their most remarkable breakthroughs. In almost
every case, you'll find they were working almost alone, or in some small
company. Also, you will find that what they came up with was well outside
the "conventional wisdom" of all large companies.
> You could argue that re-packaging old ideas is innovation
I would argue the opposite; that re-packaging old ideas is *not* innovation.
Large companies call it "innovation" but it is really just perfecting
someone else's ideas -- making them cheaper or in larger quantities than the
originator (and often, with little or no credit to the real inventor).
History is full of examples of inventors that had to fight long and hard
battles with big companies that stole their ideas. The inventors of the
vacuum tube, of FM radio, of the transistor, of the integrated circuit, and
of the microcomputer all come to mind.
> You have to be realistic - sure you can build a crude EV, with enough
> money you can build a pretty good one, by using off-the- shelf parts.
> What you will never be able to do is design one that can be profitably
> sold in the tens of thousands to DOT standards.
> That's a *hard* engineering problem.
I guess we have different opinions on the definition of "engineering". I see
engineering as the process of taking a scientific possibility and turning it
into reality; something that that actually works. For example, the
scientists figure out that it is possible to put a man on the moon. The
engineers design the vehicles to actually do it.
>From that point, the actual building of the vehicles is a job for
technicians and machinists and other tradesmen. Figuring out what they cost
and how to pay for it is not engineering; it is economics and management.
With respect to EVs, all the record-holders in range, acceleration, top
speed etc. were built by small companies; not big ones. Look up Paul
MacReady, Alan Cocconi, James Worden, Dennis Berube, and others. Tiny
shoestring start-up Commuter Vehicles built and sold more EVs than GM, Ford,
and Chrysler combined.
> Software is fundamentally different. It is oddly amenable to small
> group design and open source development
As a hardware design engineer, I see quite the opposite. Hardware lends
itself very well to brilliant designs coming from small groups. Where do you
think companies like Apple, Compaq, Hewlett Packard, etc. came from?
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
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It can work, in fact it's been done.
Couple problems:
You'd need a powerfull controller (since effectively the EV side is a
single ratio).
Low speed efficiency is going to suck.
You might also have a problem with transmission lubrication, since -as far
as the transmission can tell- this is just like towing the vehicle.
> Hi folks,
>
> Is there anyway to get an idea how well a hybrid conversion like this
> might work?
>
> Here is my idea, kind of simple really. Take say an S-10 with a
> manual trans. Remove the drive shaft and install one of the larger
> Warp motors with the tail shaft setup, behind the original
> transmission and couple its front shaft to the transmission
> output. Have the original drive shaft shortened to fit to the back
> of the motor. Install a modest battery pack in the front of the
> bed. Add a vacuum pump for the brakes, gages, charger, and a
> controller. Leave all the ICE components in place.
>
> It would operate as a limit range pure electric with the ICE engine
> off and the transmission in neutral. For gas operation, the engine
> is started and simply put in the gear required and the main contactor
> for the EV function is opened. For extra power, both could be run
> together. A generator could be added to recharge the batteries while
> in ICE mode.
>
> With the extra weight it certainly wouldn't be as efficient as a
> conventional EV conversion, but with all the original ICE functions
> still intact it would also not be subject to the conventional EV
> limitations either.
>
> So, what do you think?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Massey wrote:
> Old batteries grow their positive terminals, you'll find most likely
> that yours have lifted positive posts, but the negative ones still where
> they were put.
Yes, that's what I found - I double-checked and it's all on the positive
post side.
Bob Bath wrote:
Only a load test will tell for sure; bulging on the
ends is to be expected-- but the symptoms you've
described... bulging near the posts-- "it ain't good".
Sounds like it's time to start load testing then.
Thanks for the feedback, guys.
Darin
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> I'll just buy a ready-made propane genset. I could get a kit, but it
> doesn't seem to save any money.
Yes, but you can't "legally" mount it in the vehicle. You would be in
effect converting the vehicle to propane power. To do that legally you
MUST be a certified converter and have to jump through all of the EPA
hoops and approval process.
> Will check the legality, but don't much care about letter-of-law except
> for liability issues and tickets. Sort of same attitude you guys have in
> exceeding the stated gross weight of your donor.
While excedding the gross weight is a negligence issue and can run you
into some problems with insurance companies, it's not illegal. What you
are proposing IS illegal and can result in confiscation of the illegal
vehicle, some pretty stiff fines (as I recall they are in the thousands of
dollars) and possibly jail time.
Your choice, however, if you plan on continuing to pursue an illegal
action, I'd recommend you stop discussing it on a public forum.
>
> I would never use a pusher trailer. Thats where *I* draw the line.
<Shrug> to each their own.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- BadFishRacing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > When I see "racing" and "competition", I fear
> the
> > education component is about to go by the wayside,
> and
> > a teacher is about to get a note in the file, if
> not
> > fired, for failing to carry out state and
> > district-mandated objectives. That's our
> (teachers')
> > job.
>
> Woah Bob. Am I misunderstanding,
Yes, with due respect you are.
There is a difference between teaching district and
state objectives (what a teacher is hired to do), and
providing an exciting, practical, hands-on opportunity
that gives an education outside what is mandated by
the public.
Both have their place.
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> dunno if this qualifies as a hybrid since the two drive systems appear
> to be rather independant and separate .. though existing in ONE car !
Sure, it's called a parallel hybrid (some call it a "through the road
parallel hybrid). Has a few advantages and a few disadvantages.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hybrid means it uses both gas and electric power.
Technically, hybrid means a mix of two or more, different, propulsion
systems.
> What is bogus is to eliminate the alternator in a gas car and call it a
> hybrid. Combing the starter and alternator into one unit is a good idea,
> but not a hybrid either.
Depends on whether or not the starter/alternator can also provide
propulsion assistance. I believe most are now calling this approach a
"mybrid", or something similar, to indicate that it's a "mild" hybrid.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
