EV Digest 6649
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Miles Automotive $30 000 sedan
by jessielectric <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Intro
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: alltrax controller output
by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Intro
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
by "Michael Henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Odd (or maybe not) Hybrid thought
by "David Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Odd (or maybe not) Hybrid thought
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Nifty article in GizMag
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Pusher ideas, Was: Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I talked to the Miles guys at the show, and as I understood it they had no
intention of having people believe this is an electric car - they're trying
to build a dealer network, and the electric features of the car aren't going
to appeal to dealers as much as the vehicle's viability on the market as a
real car (not to mention the fact that if they pull off NHTSA certification
they'll have the first street-legal, full-functioning Chinese car in the
US).
It's too bad that the guy Autoblog Green interviewed was such a ditz - their
other representatives were very knowledgeable. They said they're trying to
keep everything low-profile to avoid the kind of suspicion and negativity
I've seen in this thread.
On 4/6/07, Michael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Thu, April 5, 2007 10:05 am, Tom Watson wrote:
> Kert
> Thats real nice except for the exaust pipe and muffler hanging from
> the bottom!!! check the pictures Tom
> ----------------------
> I think most of you read ABG anyway but here goes:
> http://www.autobloggreen.com/category/miles-automotive/
Which pictures? The ones I see on this page don't show the rear (or
bottom) of the car. thnx.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> As to longevity, they are reputed to last many years, if treated right.
> (I've heard numbers as
> long as 30 years.) And they should do better on depth of discharge. I'm
> hoping to go much farther
> than the typical 50% DOD on a regular basis.
I believe most people seeing really long service from these are using them
in stand-by or occasional use. I've never heard of anyone getting years
of service out of these when they are discharging them near 100% on a
daily basis.
> This is where I first saw BB600s, but they are not a reliable source. Or
> cheap. We got ours in a
> group buy from a goverment surplus auction, but they don't happen that
> often. I wonder if there
> aren't airline maintenance facilities that have these.
I don't think airlines use these. Most of the ones that come up are
military surplus from fighter jets and possibly helicopters.
The military replaces them every couple years. I'd think, if they could
reliably last 20 or 30 years, that the military would NOT be replacing
them that often. Granted the military is overly cautious about this kind
of thing (and rightly so), but they aren't that cautious.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks for the help, let me know if alltrax confirms your idea that the amps
are doubled.
yes the throttle position should go from 1 to 100, not sure why i only get 93
[i assume the cable needs tightened] and yes i was using linear throttle and i
accelerated from 1/4 throttle to full throttle.
i did have the other parts of the output [i.e. "diode temp"] i just edited
for simplicity here is the raw data:
4/8/2007 TimeStamp ThrottlePos DiodeTemp BatteryVoltage OutputCurrent
BatteryCurrent ErrorFlags
4/8/2007 25:40.7 0 28.1 48.1 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:41.7 0 28.1 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:42.7 0 28.1 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:43.7 0 28.1 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:44.7 0 28.1 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:45.7 0 28.6 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:46.7 0 28.1 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:47.7 0 28.1 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:48.7 0 28.1 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:49.7 0 27.6 48.1 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:50.7 0 28.1 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:51.7 0 28.1 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:52.7 0 28.1 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:53.7 0 28.1 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:54.7 0 28.1 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:55.7 0 28.1 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:56.7 0 28.1 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:57.7 0 28.1 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:58.7 0 28.1 48 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 25:59.7 30 27.6 45.1 286 85.2 0x00
4/8/2007 26:00.7 42 27.6 43.5 308 128 0x00
4/8/2007 26:01.7 52 27.6 42.4 255 132 0x00
4/8/2007 26:02.7 0 28.1 47.2 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:03.7 0 28.1 47.4 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:04.7 0 28.1 47.5 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:05.7 0 28.6 47.6 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:06.7 24 28.6 46.9 92 22 0x00
4/8/2007 26:07.7 24 28.6 47.1 66 16 0x00
4/8/2007 26:08.7 43 28.1 43.1 303 130.7 0x00
4/8/2007 26:09.7 52 28.1 42.2 294 153.3 0x00
4/8/2007 26:10.7 53 28.6 43.4 224 119.5 0x00
4/8/2007 26:11.7 54 28.6 44 158 84.9 0x00
4/8/2007 26:12.7 54 28.6 44.4 123 66.1 0x00
4/8/2007 26:13.7 54 29.1 45.1 106 56.9 0x00
4/8/2007 26:14.7 54 28.6 45.2 96 52 0x00
4/8/2007 26:15.8 54 28.6 45.6 83 44.9 0x00
4/8/2007 26:16.7 67 28.6 42.9 233 157.2 0x00
4/8/2007 26:17.8 71 29.1 42.8 179 127.1 0x00
4/8/2007 26:18.7 68 29.1 44.3 114 77.3 0x00
4/8/2007 26:19.8 67 29.1 45 83 55.3 0x00
4/8/2007 26:20.8 66 29.1 45.4 70 46.1 0x00
4/8/2007 26:21.8 75 29.5 44.4 180 134.8 0x00
4/8/2007 26:22.8 93 29.1 40.2 268 250.1 0x00
4/8/2007 26:23.8 93 29.1 41 237 221.2 0x00
4/8/2007 26:24.8 93 29.5 41.8 206 192.3 0x00
4/8/2007 26:25.8 93 29.1 42.4 180 168 0x00
4/8/2007 26:26.8 93 29.1 42.5 167 155.9 0x00
4/8/2007 26:27.8 93 29.1 42.8 158 147.5 0x00
4/8/2007 26:28.8 0 29.5 46.9 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:29.8 94 29.1 42 220 207.1 0x00
4/8/2007 26:30.8 93 29.1 41.4 211 196.9 0x00
4/8/2007 26:31.8 93 29.1 41.5 215 200.7 0x00
4/8/2007 26:32.8 93 29.1 41.3 215 200.7 0x00
4/8/2007 26:33.8 93 29.1 41.5 206 192.3 0x00
4/8/2007 26:34.8 93 28.1 41.8 198 184.8 0x00
4/8/2007 26:35.8 53 29.1 46.7 4 2.1 0x00
4/8/2007 26:36.8 0 30 47.1 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:37.8 0 29.5 47.1 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:38.8 0 29.5 47.3 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:39.8 0 29.1 47.3 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:40.8 0 29.1 47.3 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:41.8 0 29.1 47.4 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:42.8 0 29.1 47.4 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:43.8 0 29.1 47.4 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:44.8 26 29.1 44.9 281 73.8 0x00
4/8/2007 26:45.8 37 29.1 43.6 290 108 0x00
4/8/2007 26:46.8 45 29.1 42.7 303 135.5 0x00
4/8/2007 26:47.8 55 29.1 41.7 316 172.3 0x00
4/8/2007 26:48.8 64 29.5 40.9 330 212.2 0x00
4/8/2007 26:49.8 70 29.5 40.2 321 225.3 0x00
4/8/2007 26:50.8 73 29.5 40.6 294 213.3 0x00
4/8/2007 26:51.8 72 30 41.1 268 193.4 0x00
4/8/2007 26:52.8 75 30 41.1 272 202.7 0x00
4/8/2007 26:53.8 93 30 38.2 360 336 0x00
4/8/2007 26:54.8 93 30 38.5 343 318.8 0x00
4/8/2007 26:55.8 0 30.5 46.7 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:56.8 0 30.5 47 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:57.8 0 30.5 47.1 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:58.8 0 30.5 47.1 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 26:59.8 15 30.5 47.2 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:00.8 50 30.5 45 127 63.7 0x00
4/8/2007 27:01.8 55 30.5 44.9 120 66.4 0x00
4/8/2007 27:02.8 64 31 43.9 158 100.4 0x00
4/8/2007 27:03.8 63 30.5 44.9 92 58.1 0x00
4/8/2007 27:04.8 62 30.5 45.8 48 29.9 0x00
4/8/2007 27:05.8 62 30.5 46.3 39 24.3 0x00
4/8/2007 27:06.8 63 30.5 46.4 17 10.7 0x00
4/8/2007 27:07.8 63 30.5 46.7 17 10.7 0x00
4/8/2007 27:08.8 64 30.5 46.6 26 16.5 0x00
4/8/2007 27:09.8 63 30.5 46.5 35 22 0x00
4/8/2007 27:10.8 63 30.5 46.3 39 24.5 0x00
4/8/2007 27:11.8 63 30.5 46.2 39 24.6 0x00
4/8/2007 27:12.8 64 30 46.2 48 30.5 0x00
4/8/2007 27:13.8 64 30 46.1 52 33 0x00
4/8/2007 27:14.8 64 30.5 46.1 57 36.4 0x00
4/8/2007 27:15.8 64 30 46.1 44 28.1 0x00
4/8/2007 27:16.8 65 30 45.9 57 37.3 0x00
4/8/2007 27:17.8 93 30.5 39.8 294 273.2 0x00
4/8/2007 27:18.8 ;93 30.5 40.5 255 238 0x00
4/8/2007 27:19.9 93 30 41.1 237 221.2 0x00
4/8/2007 27:20.8 93 30.5 41.4 206 192.3 0x00
4/8/2007 27:21.8 93 30 41.7 193 180.1 0x00
4/8/2007 27:22.9 93 30 42.4 176 164.3 0x00
4/8/2007 27:23.9 93 30.5 42.8 154 143.7 0x00
4/8/2007 27:24.9 93 30 43.2 140 130.7 0x00
4/8/2007 27:25.9 46 31 46.2 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:26.8 0 30.5 46.9 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:27.9 0 30 47 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:28.8 0 30.5 47.1 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:29.9 0 31 47.2 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:30.9 0 30 47.2 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:31.9 0 30 47.3 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:32.9 33 30.5 45.7 303 99.8 0x00
4/8/2007 27:33.9 49 30 42.3 308 149.8 0x00
4/8/2007 27:34.9 56 30 41.5 277 154.3 0x00
4/8/2007 27:35.9 53 30 44.1 158 83 0x00
4/8/2007 27:36.9 55 31 44.2 127 70.2 0x00
4/8/2007 27:37.9 56 30 45 123 69 0x00
4/8/2007 27:38.9 59 30.5 45 110 64.7 0x00
4/8/2007 27:39.9 58 30 45.4 66 38.6 0x00
4/8/2007 27:40.9 57 30 46.1 39 22.3 0x00
4/8/2007 27:41.9 57 30 46.6 8 4.6 0x00
4/8/2007 27:42.9 58 30.5 46.8 23 13.3 0x00
4/8/2007 27:43.9 58 30 46.9 13 7.5 0x00
4/8/2007 27:44.9 58 30.5 46.8 17 9.8 0x00
4/8/2007 27:45.9 56 31 46.9 8 4.5 0x00
4/8/2007 27:46.9 0 30.5 47.2 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:47.9 0 31 47.3 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:48.9 0 30.5 47.4 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:49.9 0 30.5 47.3 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:50.9 0 30.5 47.4 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:51.9 0 30.5 47.4 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:52.9 0 30.5 47.4 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:53.9 0 30.5 47.4 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:54.9 0 30.5 47.5 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:55.9 0 30.5 47.5 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:56.9 0 30.5 47.5 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:57.9 0 30.5 47.5 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:58.9 0 30.5 47.5 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 27:59.9 0 30.5 47.5 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 28:00.9 0 30 47.5 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 28:01.9 0 30.5 47.6 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 28:02.9 0 30 47.6 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 28:03.9 0 30 47.6 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 28:04.9 0 30.5 47.6 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 28:05.9 0 30 47.6 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 28:06.9 0 30 47.6 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 28:07.9 0 30 47.6 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 28:08.9 0 30 47.6 0 0 0x00
4/8/2007 28:09.9 0 30 47.6 0 0 0x00
Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dale-
It's very timely that you should ask this question.
Last weekend I tested and saved several minutes' worth of data from my
Alltrax while trying out the several throttle response curves for the setup
on my boat (http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/492 ).
I, too, was confused about the output, which I analyzed in a spreadsheet.
First, in my case it appeared that a couple of the column headers were
swapped. It also appeared that I had more column headings than data (diode
temp had no data). Further, your data doesn't even show a "diode temp"
column heading, indicating to me that newer versions of the Alltrax SW added
a column for it. I was going to email Alltrax to ask about this.
Second, and to one of the main points of your question, I also found that
the throttle vs output readings were odd. Analyzing this, I found that the
throttle readings are definitely skew. In my case, the MIN throttle
position yielded a reading of 10.5, while the MAX throttle position yielded
a reading of 23.2 . It was easy to normalize this though, as:
ThrPos = (TPmeas - TPmin)/(TPmax-TPmin)
Which results in Throttle positions from 0 to 1.
I'm using an EZ-GO throttle position sensor and a linear throttle response
curve.
In your case, you show a TPmax of 93, much higher than the 23.2 that I saw,
so I'd guess with a throttle pot, the data is normalized from 0-100. You
may want to check the throttle response curve selected. I found very weird
response when I tried using the "inductive" response curve. Even the
"S-curve" response had a jerky response at about 3/4 throttle. So I'm back
to linear.
Third, the current readings....ahh, those were odd...the data I recorded
showed Iout as high as 286amps and Ibat as high as 275.9. While I was
initially tempted to think this was an 8-bit normalized output (0-255), when
I saw numbers exceeding this, I had to scratch my head. So I was
discouraged with the seemingly unusable numbers. Then I recalled that my
tests went to full throttle and that at full throttle the controller draws
about 130-140amps from the batteries. Seeing that the Max Ibat I recorded
was 275.9amps, I guessed that the stored data is 2x the actual current.
So that's how I'm interpreting it...In YOUR case, you had a max. Iout of
360, so I'd consider interprettig that as 180amps, which is less than your
programmed current limit. Perhaps as mentioned earlier, Alltrax updated
their SW for newer firmware and that for older firmware there's a 2x
difference. Again, another thing to ask Alltrax about.
Fourth, your data looks consistent with an acceleration profile. It looks
like you stepped on the throttle, resulting in high rise in current within
the first second, and then as throttle was continuously increased, the
current also rose some.
Hope this helps...
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of dale henderson
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 3:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: alltrax controller output
I have an alltrax 300 amp controller, but am a little confused by the output
I'm getting. Any help would be appreciated: is there any way I can use the
output data or do I need to find another solution to track amps?
I have the alltrax max output current set at 75% so 225 should be the max
[300 * .75], however as can be seen in the output current [second to last
column] the amps are exceeding 225. What is more confusing is the high
current values with a low throttle positions
Sample output
TimeStamp ThrottlePos BatteryVolt OutputCurrent BatteryCurrent
26:42.8 0 47.4 0 0
26:43.8 0 47.4 0 0
26:44.8 26 44.9 281 73.8
26:45.8 37 43.6 290 108
26:46.8 45 42.7 303 135.5
26:47.8 55 41.7 316 172.3
26:48.8 64 40.9 330 212.2
26:49.8 70 40.2 321 225.3
26:50.8 73 40.6 294 213.3
26:51.8 72 41.1 268 193.4
26:52.8 75 41.1 272 202.7
26:53.8 93 38.2 360 336
26:54.8 93 38.5 343 318.8
26:55.8 0 46.7 0 0
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
---------------------------------
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
---------------------------------
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm really intrigued with the earlier idea of having a battery bank on a
trailer just large enough to old the battery pack, use it for half the commute,
plug it in, travel the rest of the commute on vehicle batteries, Charge vehicle
while at work, then pick up the charged trailer on the way home, and use it's
power to finalize the commute home. No generator needed. The car's battery
pack will be more than enough for the other shorts runs around town.
I've got one of those "Kill A Watt" meters from:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93519 to keep
track of the power used at work, in order to take the cost off of my mileage
reimbursements, and will use another at a location halfway along the commute,
in order to pay the charging station host. I've already conversed with a
business that is open to the idea of hosting the charging station.
My commute one way is aprox 40 miles, this seems to be a possible way to get
some range without going overboard with a ton of batteries in the car.
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'll just buy a ready-made propane genset. I could get a kit, but it
> doesn't seem to save any money.
Yes, but you can't "legally" mount it in the vehicle. You would be in
effect converting the vehicle to propane power. To do that legally you
MUST be a certified converter and have to jump through all of the EPA
hoops and approval process.
> Will check the legality, but don't much care about letter-of-law except
> for liability issues and tickets. Sort of same attitude you guys have in
> exceeding the stated gross weight of your donor.
While excedding the gross weight is a negligence issue and can run you
into some problems with insurance companies, it's not illegal. What you
are proposing IS illegal and can result in confiscation of the illegal
vehicle, some pretty stiff fines (as I recall they are in the thousands of
dollars) and possibly jail time.
Your choice, however, if you plan on continuing to pursue an illegal
action, I'd recommend you stop discussing it on a public forum.
>
> I would never use a pusher trailer. Thats where *I* draw the line.
to each their own.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
Michael Barkley
"You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
www.texomaev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Thanks for all the info folks. I'm looking at numbers and such right
> now as well as taking into account the things you're telling me..
>
> I'm assuming Uve's new EV Calc is reasonably accurate, or at least
> will give me a baseline to work with, and looking at that, putting 24
> SAFT 5-100 NiCD batteries in there, and using a small aerodynamic car
> as the basis, I get something like 100 miles in the 60mph area. It
> looks to me that this is a combination of the low Peukert's number, as
> well as the low internal resistance, and the deeper discharge possible
> as compared to Lead Acid.
Saft STM5-100s are a totally different animal to Saft BB600s. The
STM5-100s are designed for high capacity at relatively low discharge
rates. The BB600s are designed for High discharge at relatively low
capacity.
Just so we're clear, you can't use calculations for one and assume they
apply to the other.
Saft STM batteries are fairly expensive (Approx $550 ea) and Saft will
only sell them to you if you are using a Saft approved charging system
($$$). Plus you have to pay for shipping from France($$$). And I believe
they only typically last 50,000 to 100,000 miles, though some on this list
have seen them die much quicker than that. Considering the batteries will
cost you in the $12,000-$15,000 (plus the cost of an approved charger), do
you really want to spend that much every 2-4 years?
> So, it seems that using SAFT NiCads you can get the range I mentioned.
Yes with the STMs, maybe, but probably not, with the BB600s
> The Marathon NiCads seem wimpier, and not all that much better than
> lead acids.
I assume you are talking about the Marathon equivelent to the BB600, high
power batteries and not high capacity? Saft and Marathon both make a
BB600 type battery that are virtually identical.
> I could also figure out how crazy of an idea it is to get a small
> 12x12 pack to function as an acceleration pack. Slap in some heavy
> diodes and you should be ok, no? Assuming that is viable, it would
> give a bit more range since the main pack would drain a lot more on
> acceleration watt per watt than a pack designed to handle short, heavy
> loads. Cheaper than Ultracaps, anyway :)
No real advantage over having the small pack wired in all the time. i.e.
more batteries equals more range.
Peukerts doesn't really apply to NiCads. You get a little less energy out
at high discharge rates, but that is almost entirely due to internal
resistance.
>
> So, there is my rumination! Just so you guys know, I don't intend on
> buying anything right now except the car itself, and maybe a few
> components. One step at a time, and I don't currently have the whole
> nut to spend! My house needs painting and my kitchen is being redone.
> Woot.
>
>
> --T
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Personally as a High-School student I believe that doing my EV conversion is
going to teach me so much. Such as electrical circuits, Physics,
Mathematics. I mean what isn't there to learn from an EV conversion. Also
it deals with Earth Sciences, and also stuff like CWI (current world
issues). Also kids will be able to learn basic mechanics and all the
auto-shop skills that a normal Auto class provides. So I think that it
should be a high priority to get something like this started in public
High-Schools, and it doesn't have to be a class, it could be something like
an after-school club/activity.
Also I think that there will be plenty of students willing to do something
like this. Just talking to my friends about my Datsun that My dad and I are
converting, it kinda makes them jelous.
Anyway that's my two-bits
~Michael (Damon's Son)
Btw, 1st post!
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
Date: Sun, 8 Apr 2007 21:59:37 -0400 (EDT)
>> When I see "racing" and "competition", I fear the
>> education component is about to go by the wayside,
>> and a teacher is about to get a note in the file,
>> if not fired, for failing to carry out state and
>> district-mandated objectives. That's our (teachers')
>> job.
From: BadFishRacing
> Woah Bob. Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying "Racing"
> and "Competition" is not educational?
'Fraid so!
"All children are born scientists and engineers. Watch them at play; they
are experimenting, building, and learning. That's engineering! Then we
spend years in school squashing it out of them."
-- Geoffrey Orsak, dean of engineering, Southern Methodist University
The hardest part of our BEST program is to avoid the testing and "cookie
cutter" approach to education mandated by the government and school
administration. For the most part, we "fly below their radar". BEST gives
kids a direct, personal reason for learning -- they want to build things!
And, we spend more time teaching them *how* to think, and less on *what* to
think.
In BEST, there are no tests; if it works, it's good, and the kids can judge
that for themselves. Copying or looking up answers is not cheating; it's
how you learn and move forward. There are no authorities; only experts.
The teachers we work with need to be comfortable operating outside the
"official" curriculum. It's getting harder and harder, as administrations
keep trying to micro-manage things ever more rigorously in the classroom.
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
_________________________________________________________________
Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon.
http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well let's assume you have found a technicality where the emissions laws
won't apply. For example, you only run the genny on non-public roadways
or in a parking lot.
I still have to ask, what was the point you wished to prove? If you end
up with a Geo Metro that gets 5-10 mpg less than the original engine (or
a propane conversion on the original engine), is loud, smelly, a blatant
smog machine, and generally ridiculous, it's not exactly gonna do the EV
field any credit. Maybe you have enough batts in there to say "yeah but
I have enough batt capacity here it's like there's 3/4 gal worth of
gasoline in those batts!".
So skipping the rest of the sarcasm and jumping to the end, can you
actually come up with an environmental, free-us-from-fossil-fuels, or
potential operating cost benefit to justify this plan? Otherwise,
people who call you a nut job may be the ones who can justify their
assertion.
I'm open to changing my opinion on them the moment somebody can show
numbers that they can make it operate more efficiently with at least
reasonable emissions. Even if it could technically be interpreted as
illegal I'd argue for trying it. But if you can't demonstrate where
it's going to accomplish any useful goal I'm gonna recommend against it.
Danny
John Fisher wrote:
I'll just buy a ready-made propane genset. I could get a kit, but it
doesn't seem to save any money.
Will check the legality, but don't much care about letter-of-law
except for liability issues and tickets. Sort of same attitude you
guys have in exceeding the stated gross weight of your donor.
I would never use a pusher trailer. Thats where *I* draw the line.
cheers
JF
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I really hope this can work. Netgain (http://www.go-ev.com/) has
already proved the concept and I am in the process of doing just that to
my 2004 Avalanche. I am very glad of all the EV work that is being done
here but I am afraid the technology is not ready for most people. But
if we can add EV technology to the 5.5 million Chevy trucks on the road
that are 2001 and newer and get them to boost gas mileage 25% it would
save a LOT of gas.
Unless you have room for a TransWarp 9 around your drive shaft you will
have to wait for the planned TransWarp 7. I have measured the full size
trucks and there just is not room for a Warp 9. I would be surprised if
the S10 has room. The EMIS module to interface to the ICE engine
requires the newer cars that have drive by wire. It is a cool concept
and one that I think will go over well.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Chancey
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 5:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Odd (or maybe not) Hybrid thought
Hi folks,
Is there anyway to get an idea how well a hybrid conversion like this
might work?
Here is my idea, kind of simple really. Take say an S-10 with a
manual trans. Remove the drive shaft and install one of the larger
Warp motors with the tail shaft setup, behind the original
transmission and couple its front shaft to the transmission
output. Have the original drive shaft shortened to fit to the back
of the motor. Install a modest battery pack in the front of the
bed. Add a vacuum pump for the brakes, gages, charger, and a
controller. Leave all the ICE components in place.
It would operate as a limit range pure electric with the ICE engine
off and the transmission in neutral. For gas operation, the engine
is started and simply put in the gear required and the main contactor
for the EV function is opened. For extra power, both could be run
together. A generator could be added to recharge the batteries while
in ICE mode.
With the extra weight it certainly wouldn't be as efficient as a
conventional EV conversion, but with all the original ICE functions
still intact it would also not be subject to the conventional EV
limitations either.
So, what do you think?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am currently considering building (emm .. let somebody build it) a
pusher trailer. I am thinking about a Volkswagen bug or Ghia tail, it's
simple, air cooled and I know a thing or two about it. However,
controlling the clutch and/or transmission might be a nightmare. On the
other hand, if I would
be able to find a old VW based trike - I could extend the controls all the
way into the cab of my truck.
Any other suggestions on how to control transmission and/or clutch?
mm.
> John,
>
> It's up to you, and AC Propulsion made a genset trailer out of a
> motorcycle engine and some crack engineering that got them 35mpg in
> the TZero so it can be done.. sort of.. but I've thought about this as
> well and the more I think about it, the more I think that a cool
> looking pusher trailer made out of a motorcycle back end and
> engine/controls, would be much preferable to a genset trailer for long
> trips. At least for a one off thing. And it would be so much simpler!
>
> You could even do a nifty fiberglass canopy that is all SWOOSHY and
> stuff and looks like bladerunner. :)
>
> --T
>
> On 4/8/07, John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I'll just buy a ready-made propane genset. I could get a kit, but it
>> doesn't seem to save any money.
>> Will check the legality, but don't much care about letter-of-law except
>> for liability issues and tickets. Sort of same attitude you guys have in
>> exceeding the stated gross weight of your donor.
>>
>> I would never use a pusher trailer. Thats where *I* draw the line.
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> JF
>>
>> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> >> 3) propane is the likely first power source instead of gasoline. My
>> >>
>> >
>> > I believe that propane will be a show stopper for you. You can't
>> legally
>> > use a propane powered engine in car unless it's done by a certified
>> > propane converter (which you are not).
>> > Because of the overhead in getting the conversion approved, it's
>> unlikely
>> > that you will be able to convince a certified converter to design,
>> test,
>> > and certify a one-off project...unless you have really deep pockets?
>> >
>> > You might be able to pull a legal fast one by towing a propane powered
>> > generator behind an EV. But if you are planning on regularly pulling
>> a
>> > trailer, you might as well pull a pusher trailer and save the double
>> > conversion losses.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good hearing from you Michael. First, I meant no offense to your motor, I had
to take the digs on Jim when I could ;-) And
second you couldn't be more right. All (well not really all) the things I
eventaully learned in highschool and college I learned
first woking in my grandfather's machine shop. Sure I did welding, lathe and
mill work, and a lot of sweeping shavings and wiping
oil, but I also had to learn to read drawings, make drawings, figure bill of
materials, get shipping quotes, handle account
discrepancies with our local suppliers, and above all design parts which
required learning the complex math on my own. Like I said
not really all of these things I learned were actually taught in formal school.
Getting your hands on and doing is the best
education you will ever receive, bar none. A state run bureaucracy will never
come close to teaching you the things you need to
know in life. "Racing" and "competition" might get a teacher fired "for
failing to carry out state and district-mandated
objectives" but if that were to happen I would seriously have to question the
"district-mandated objectives". The racing and
competition aspects will force you to learn the things you need to know almost
regardless of how good the teacher is. Becuae if
you want to be successful you will seek out the information you need to know to
succeed. So those on this list could argue the
applicability of these programs to the State's madated curriculum but thats a
moot point if you are participating in an activity
that will actually teach you something. I look forward to seeing how your
truck comes out.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/756
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Michael Henry
> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 6:48 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
>
>
> Personally as a High-School student I believe that doing my EV conversion is
> going to teach me so much. Such as electrical circuits, Physics,
> Mathematics. I mean what isn't there to learn from an EV conversion. Also
> it deals with Earth Sciences, and also stuff like CWI (current world
> issues). Also kids will be able to learn basic mechanics and all the
> auto-shop skills that a normal Auto class provides. So I think that it
> should be a high priority to get something like this started in public
> High-Schools, and it doesn't have to be a class, it could be something like
> an after-school club/activity.
>
> Also I think that there will be plenty of students willing to do something
> like this. Just talking to my friends about my Datsun that My dad and I are
> converting, it kinda makes them jelous.
>
> Anyway that's my two-bits
>
> ~Michael (Damon's Son)
>
> Btw, 1st post!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela Merz wrote:
Any other suggestions on how to control transmission and/or clutch?
This question reminded me of Mr. Sharkey's solution to clutch operation on
his diesel Rabbit pusher trailer. A reversable drill motor with screw drive.
See it here-
http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher3.htm
~~~~~~
Roy LeMeur
_________________________________________________________________
Mortgage refinance is Hot. *Terms. Get a 5.375%* fix rate. Check savings
https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2bbb&disc=y&vers=925&s=4056&p=5117
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 8, 2007, at 9:34 PM, David Hrivnak wrote:
I have measured the full size
trucks and there just is not room for a Warp 9.
That seems strange. If people can put batteries around the driveshaft,
there ought to be room for a motor, especially if it's inline with the
driveshaft.
See the many examples in the EVAlbum. Here's one:
<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/112>
Another possibility: install a lift kit. I've seen trucks jacked up so
high you'd be able to fit a whole extra car under there. It ought to
be possible to jack up the rear high enough to fit a motor under the
bed, especially if you put it close to the diffferential.
Did I miss something?
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For Geo Metro motor going into my taurus, I'm pretty convinced I need to
try and control the clutch and shiting electronically using solenoids
and stepper motors. I don't want to add a clutch pedal or even put the
stick shift into the car since it won't end up fitting into the right
place. So that's what I'd suggest you try. The clutch shouldn't be a
big issue, but the shifting seems like it takes some "wiggling" at
times, that seems pretty hard to do with solenoids.
This must have been done before by someone, I seem to recall that
handicap racers have all hand controls in their cars, but that might be
a very expensive setup.
Jack
Michaela Merz wrote:
I am currently considering building (emm .. let somebody build it) a
pusher trailer. I am thinking about a Volkswagen bug or Ghia tail, it's
simple, air cooled and I know a thing or two about it. However,
controlling the clutch and/or transmission might be a nightmare. On the
other hand, if I would
be able to find a old VW based trike - I could extend the controls all the
way into the cab of my truck.
Any other suggestions on how to control transmission and/or clutch?
mm.
John,
It's up to you, and AC Propulsion made a genset trailer out of a
motorcycle engine and some crack engineering that got them 35mpg in
the TZero so it can be done.. sort of.. but I've thought about this as
well and the more I think about it, the more I think that a cool
looking pusher trailer made out of a motorcycle back end and
engine/controls, would be much preferable to a genset trailer for long
trips. At least for a one off thing. And it would be so much simpler!
You could even do a nifty fiberglass canopy that is all SWOOSHY and
stuff and looks like bladerunner. :)
--T
On 4/8/07, John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'll just buy a ready-made propane genset. I could get a kit, but it
doesn't seem to save any money.
Will check the legality, but don't much care about letter-of-law except
for liability issues and tickets. Sort of same attitude you guys have in
exceeding the stated gross weight of your donor.
I would never use a pusher trailer. Thats where *I* draw the line.
cheers
JF
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
3) propane is the likely first power source instead of gasoline. My
I believe that propane will be a show stopper for you. You can't
legally
use a propane powered engine in car unless it's done by a certified
propane converter (which you are not).
Because of the overhead in getting the conversion approved, it's
unlikely
that you will be able to convince a certified converter to design,
test,
and certify a one-off project...unless you have really deep pockets?
You might be able to pull a legal fast one by towing a propane powered
generator behind an EV. But if you are planning on regularly pulling
a
trailer, you might as well pull a pusher trailer and save the double
conversion losses.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There might be a stepper motor already on the throttle for the cruise
control.
Danny
Jack Murray wrote:
For Geo Metro motor going into my taurus, I'm pretty convinced I need
to try and control the clutch and shiting electronically using
solenoids and stepper motors. I don't want to add a clutch pedal or
even put the stick shift into the car since it won't end up fitting
into the right place. So that's what I'd suggest you try. The clutch
shouldn't be a big issue, but the shifting seems like it takes some
"wiggling" at times, that seems pretty hard to do with solenoids.
This must have been done before by someone, I seem to recall that
handicap racers have all hand controls in their cars, but that might
be a very expensive setup.
Jack
Michaela Merz wrote:
I am currently considering building (emm .. let somebody build it) a
pusher trailer. I am thinking about a Volkswagen bug or Ghia tail, it's
simple, air cooled and I know a thing or two about it. However,
controlling the clutch and/or transmission might be a nightmare. On the
other hand, if I would
be able to find a old VW based trike - I could extend the controls
all the
way into the cab of my truck.
Any other suggestions on how to control transmission and/or clutch?
mm.
John,
It's up to you, and AC Propulsion made a genset trailer out of a
motorcycle engine and some crack engineering that got them 35mpg in
the TZero so it can be done.. sort of.. but I've thought about this as
well and the more I think about it, the more I think that a cool
looking pusher trailer made out of a motorcycle back end and
engine/controls, would be much preferable to a genset trailer for long
trips. At least for a one off thing. And it would be so much simpler!
You could even do a nifty fiberglass canopy that is all SWOOSHY and
stuff and looks like bladerunner. :)
--T
On 4/8/07, John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'll just buy a ready-made propane genset. I could get a kit, but it
doesn't seem to save any money.
Will check the legality, but don't much care about letter-of-law
except
for liability issues and tickets. Sort of same attitude you guys
have in
exceeding the stated gross weight of your donor.
I would never use a pusher trailer. Thats where *I* draw the line.
cheers
JF
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
3) propane is the likely first power source instead of gasoline. My
I believe that propane will be a show stopper for you. You can't
legally
use a propane powered engine in car unless it's done by a certified
propane converter (which you are not).
Because of the overhead in getting the conversion approved, it's
unlikely
that you will be able to convince a certified converter to design,
test,
and certify a one-off project...unless you have really deep pockets?
You might be able to pull a legal fast one by towing a propane
powered
generator behind an EV. But if you are planning on regularly pulling
a
trailer, you might as well pull a pusher trailer and save the double
conversion losses.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
By far the most well-written article about the KillaCycle is here in GizMag:
http://www.gizmag.com/
full article
http://www.gizmag.com/go/7085/
Click on the "read more" button and scroll down. The author really
knows his stuff about drag racing.
Bill Dube'
Here is an article written in Russian:
http://oborot.blogspot.com/2007/04/blog-post_08.html
too wierd...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:18 PM 8/04/07 -0500, mm wrote:
I am currently considering building (emm .. let somebody build it) a
pusher trailer. I am thinking about a Volkswagen bug or Ghia tail, it's
simple, air cooled and I know a thing or two about it. However,
controlling the clutch and/or transmission might be a nightmare. On the
other hand, if I would
be able to find a old VW based trike - I could extend the controls all the
way into the cab of my truck.
Any other suggestions on how to control transmission and/or clutch?
G'day Michaela, and All
I can see issues with a manual transmission donor, you'd probably need to
pick a gear or a push-pull pair of gears and say "neutral, third or fourth
gear" to avoid the integration of side-to-side movement as well as
front-to-back, although that is not insurmountable. You could have an
actuator that can put the gear selector from neutral into 3rd or 4th,
another to push the clutch (easy to make it only move the selector when the
clutch is pushed down). However, how do you stop it "lugging" when you slow
down, snatching on the clutch because you are not moving at the speed the
engine wants to when you release the clutch lever? I can see the need to
accelerate to a certain speed in EV only mode, then holding that speed let
the clutch out and then throttle up.
I'd start with an automatic transmission donor, it would be a piece of the
proverbial to get a linear actuator that can pull and push the transmission
selector. I'd make up a switch box with an auto shifter sticking up out of
it to go in the EV (you can probably get a selector that is just switches
from your local wreckers, dunno what off though, I think I've seen a Honda
that is that way. Cut a set of slider cams to operate a bunch of limit
switches:
Park: Drive actuator fully "out" - single switch to stop movement
Reverse: Pair of switches for in or out direction - cut off when in position.
Neutral: Pair of switches for in or out direction - cut off when in position.
Drive: Don't bother with other drive positions, make it only move as far as
"D", single switch to cut off movement.
So six switches on the pusher to make it move to position commanded from
the vehicle.
I'd use a vacuum actuator (used for cruise control) on the trottle, so if
things go wrong the throttle fails off. 3 wires, throttle up, throttle down
and common. Not so natural to control, as you'd be driving like over-ride
of a cruise control. If you want to be able to accelerator control Linak
make a module that takes a pot input and positions an actuator (one with a
pot in it) so you'd be able to switch over a potbox to control the pusher
throttle. I'd still have a vacuum actuator to pull the throttle up against
the operating link of the electric actuator, to get the 'fail off' behaviour.
Linear actuators turn up on Ebay fairly often and go for cents in the
dollar. Linak is the "biggie" brand, although there are others.
The alternative is to have a long cable set to connect and disconnect to
control the throttle/etc, I'd be doing it electric - you can get a
waterproof connector with any number of connections, so you could take the
entire instrument cluster for the pusher and wire it through to the EV.
Easy to say "long trip today", plug in the trailer and go.
Using cables it is a lot more hassle, but you may be able to make a box
that sits at the back of the EV that has a set of link arms that are
attached to the throttle, clutch, transmission selector and on the trailer
you have a set of cables on a plate that has levers attached. Drop in into
the connection box, plug in the electrics, drop the link arm joiners and
the retainer clips (etc) and you're off. If you have access to cable
systems at a good price that may be an option.
A rear engine/rear drive system should be less work than a front
engine/front wheel drive as the steering needs to be set straight and
locked. It may be possible to get (for example) a front wheel drive from
something that has a 4WD version (for example the Subaru Leonie is a front
wheel drive, but 4WD is Subarus' main thing). Use the front wheel drive
system and graft it into the rear suspension. Depends on what you can find
for a donor and what you're capable of locally to you I suppose.
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
