EV Digest 6650
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Nifty article in GizMag
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Mike's Pinto Project (reprise)
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Intro
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Putting a value on Curtis 1221B 72-120 V / 400 A controller core
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Putting a value on Curtis 1221B 72-120 V / 400 A
controller core
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Balancing Lithium batterys - how does this work?
by "Scott Littledike" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Pinto Project & Zombie Rear Axle Mods
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Intro
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Intro
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Intro
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Odd (or maybe not) Hybrid thought
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Intro
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Odd (or maybe not) Hybrid thought
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Intro
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Intro
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Pusher ideas, Was: Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Intro
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Intro
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Intro
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Intro
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: "bulging" case a visual sign of a bad floodie?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Nawaz Qureshi question has the US125 gotten any better overy the last
few years ?
by "Nawaz Qureshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Intro
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Bill, you oughtta start shopping the laptop market for sponsorship.
See it now:
"Buy a Dell, 150 Thz, 65 Terra-quads of RAM, A123 super ionized Killacycle
powerpack...this thing will boot your laptop in nothing
flat!"
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Bill Dube
> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 8:59 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Nifty article in GizMag
>
>
> By far the most well-written article about the KillaCycle is here in GizMag:
> http://www.gizmag.com/
> full article
> http://www.gizmag.com/go/7085/
>
> Click on the "read more" button and scroll down. The author really
> knows his stuff about drag racing.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> Here is an article written in Russian:
> http://oborot.blogspot.com/2007/04/blog-post_08.html
>
> too wierd...
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> However there is only 1 axle I think is worthy of placement under the
> Pinto and thats a Ford 9".
I get that, Mike, but I'm suggesting you carefully choose WHICH 9-inch
axle you slide under that Pinto, as there are MANY different widths,
offsets, and etc. available over the years of stock production, and
that's before you even go to custom.
Cool project!
Randii
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Could you use cable controllers such as used on bicycle hand brakes or
hydrualic lines?
They are felxible and less prone to malfunction than electronic solenoid
systems. Also you get a literal feel for how they are working through
your hands. You get no manual feedback through electric solenoids just
before they fail.
I would hate to think what would happen if you had an uncontrollable
pusher trailer shoving you down the road and you couldn't stop it. Seems
horribly dangerous. In pusher tralier are essentially unbalnced and
prone to jackknifing your vehicle in turns.
A generator trailer is much safer and it is easier than trying to figure
out gearing and load controls for a pusher trailer.
I would never set foot in a car with a pusher trailer attached to it.
Anytime your car hits slick spot in the road on a curve the pusher
trailer will still have full grip and be pushing your rear end right
around.
Horribly dangerous.
On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 11:07 pm, Jack Murray wrote:
For Geo Metro motor going into my taurus, I'm pretty convinced I need
to try and control the clutch and shiting electronically using
solenoids and stepper motors. I don't want to add a clutch pedal or
even put the stick shift into the car since it won't end up fitting
into the right place. So that's what I'd suggest you try. The clutch
shouldn't be a big issue, but the shifting seems like it takes some
"wiggling" at times, that seems pretty hard to do with solenoids.
This must have been done before by someone, I seem to recall that
handicap racers have all hand controls in their cars, but that might be
a very expensive setup.
Jack
Michaela Merz wrote:
I am currently considering building (emm .. let somebody build it) a
pusher trailer. I am thinking about a Volkswagen bug or Ghia tail, it's
simple, air cooled and I know a thing or two about it. However,
controlling the clutch and/or transmission might be a nightmare. On the
other hand, if I would
be able to find a old VW based trike - I could extend the controls all
the
way into the cab of my truck.
Any other suggestions on how to control transmission and/or clutch?
mm.
John,
It's up to you, and AC Propulsion made a genset trailer out of a
motorcycle engine and some crack engineering that got them 35mpg in
the TZero so it can be done.. sort of.. but I've thought about this as
well and the more I think about it, the more I think that a cool
looking pusher trailer made out of a motorcycle back end and
engine/controls, would be much preferable to a genset trailer for long
trips. At least for a one off thing. And it would be so much simpler!
You could even do a nifty fiberglass canopy that is all SWOOSHY and
stuff and looks like bladerunner. :)
--T
On 4/8/07, John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'll just buy a ready-made propane genset. I could get a kit, but it
doesn't seem to save any money.
Will check the legality, but don't much care about letter-of-law except
for liability issues and tickets. Sort of same attitude you guys
have in
exceeding the stated gross weight of your donor.
I would never use a pusher trailer. Thats where *I* draw the line.
cheers
JF
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
3) propane is the likely first power source instead of gasoline. My
I believe that propane will be a show stopper for you. You can't
legally
use a propane powered engine in car unless it's done by a certified
propane converter (which you are not).
Because of the overhead in getting the conversion approved, it's
unlikely
that you will be able to convince a certified converter to design,
test,
and certify a one-off project...unless you have really deep pockets?
You might be able to pull a legal fast one by towing a propane powered
generator behind an EV. But if you are planning on regularly pulling
a
trailer, you might as well pull a pusher trailer and save the double
conversion losses.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/9/07, Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks for all the info folks. I'm looking at numbers and such right
now as well as taking into account the things you're telling me..
I'm assuming Uve's new EV Calc is reasonably accurate, or at least
will give me a baseline to work with, and looking at that, putting 24
SAFT 5-100 NiCD batteries in there, and using a small aerodynamic car
as the basis, I get something like 100 miles in the 60mph area.
Just for comparison, the Citroen Saxo and Peugeot 106 are small,
aerodynamic cars using 20 of those batteries (that's about 10kWh
worth). Comfortable daily range (i.e. without fully discharging) is
probably nearer 40 miles at that sort of speed. A long way from your
target, even with 4 more batteries :)
Uve's calculator can often produce "optimistic" results - not
necessarily wrong but to match the theoretical result you need extreme
best case factors, not all of which are possible or desirable to
achieve.
For 100 miles range using a similar modern small car, preferably with
regen (let's say an AC drive for the sake of argument), you should
need a similar 250Wh per mile, so you will require 25kWh and then some
spare.
One option that could be suitable is the Zebra battery - for example
the Z36-371-ML3P-76 is a 28.8kWh battery, with a weight of only 245kG
(quite compatible with a small 2-seat car) and a nominal voltage of
370V, compatible with many AC drives.
This battery also has a comparably long (or better) cycle life to
Nicad, and would be suitable for this sort of heavy daily use.
It
looks to me that this is a combination of the low Peukert's number, as
well as the low internal resistance, and the deeper discharge possible
as compared to Lead Acid.
Now thats just for a DC system, no regen braking at 144v, using a
zilla 1k, and an ADC motor. His AC stuff doesn't work, but from all
accounts the AC systems get 5%+ better efficiency because of the high
voltage, and you get regen braking built in, which will give another 2
- 4% range.
So, it seems that using SAFT NiCads you can get the range I mentioned.
The Marathon NiCads seem wimpier, and not all that much better than
lead acids. I'd need 4 strings of 120 of them, which weigh not quite
double the SAFT however it does give somewhat better range than one
SAFT string, of about 25%, so although SAFT strings would give better
range kg per kg, the problem of voltage means the BB600s would be much
easier to handle.
Of course, deal is you're talking about adding 2260 lbs to the car,
which means you have to beef up the frame and put in special
suspension components. I'm guessing that those additions will be
cheaper than a24x6 SAFT string, and an additional string of 12x12s to
bring the range up a smidge, considering one 5-100 MRE costs something
like $500+ :) Let alone easier to configure.
All of this is with DC components only and no regen, so I'm fairly
certain that I could squeeze the same range from an AC system, if not
much more. But, maybe with these numbers, I can go straight DC and
save a few thousand on the conversion.
I could also figure out how crazy of an idea it is to get a small
12x12 pack to function as an acceleration pack. Slap in some heavy
diodes and you should be ok, no? Assuming that is viable, it would
give a bit more range since the main pack would drain a lot more on
acceleration watt per watt than a pack designed to handle short, heavy
loads. Cheaper than Ultracaps, anyway :)
So, there is my rumination! Just so you guys know, I don't intend on
buying anything right now except the car itself, and maybe a few
components. One step at a time, and I don't currently have the whole
nut to spend! My house needs painting and my kitchen is being redone.
Woot.
--T
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have one of these and put it on the trading post for what I believe is the
core / trade in value if you want to buy a refurb model. I want to be fair, so
I was wondering if someone could confirm that you can still get $200 off a
refurb if you send in your damaged one. Who is still offering that deal?
Also, is it only good on the same model - 1221? Or, could it be traded in on a
120 - 144 V / 500 A controller. My experience with Flight Systems is that they
will only take a cores of the same model you are buying.
I had hoped to get it rebuilt by Logisystems, but they are no longer in the
business of rebuilding these 1221's. I estimate $100- $150 in parts and 1-2
days of labor to completely rebuild the power stage. So, it doesn't seem worth
it to me, especially if you only end up with a rebuilt low power 15 year old
controller. So, I see the only value as either parts or a trade in. Igf I
sell it, I want to be sure I'm not being unfair in my price. I also don't want
to give it away if it actually does have some value.
Thanks,
Steve
---------------------------------
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:09 AM 9/04/07 -0700, Steve wrote:
I have one of these and put it on the trading post for what I believe is
the core / trade in value if you want to buy a refurb model. I want to be
fair, <snip> So, I see the only value as either parts or a trade in. If
I sell it, I want to be sure I'm not being unfair in my price. I also
don't want to give it away if it actually does have some value.
G'day Steve, and All
The two 1221's that I've bought I paid US$200 private purchace, and US$165
via Ebay. Another private one that was an informal auction aparently sold
for around US$250.
Supply and demand, though, I already have two to rebuild so wouldn't pay
more than US$100 for another one (unless I find the one that is in transit
has incinerated its' PCB).
Others that missed out on the informal auction may pay over $200, if
they're still interested.
Ask for people who are interested to email you off-list with their offer,
see what eventuates.
Hope this helps.
Regards.
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi there,
I have been reading the recent thread on charging lithium batteries and was
interested in how they should be balanced, what the process is etc. For
example,from what i understand the A123 cells need a constant current charge
to 3.6V. (please correct me if im wrong)
So, the basic job of a balancer is to ensure none of the cells are
overcharged above 3.6V, and is to move charge into the least charged cells?
how would this be performed - during the charging process i assume?
Would a balancer scan each individual cell voltage, and stop charging if any
of the cells were overcharged?
Then, to top up the least charged cell - would the balancer charge this cell
individually, or would say, the cell be connected with another in parallel
(with some form of current limiting) to move charge across?
Your help is much appreciated!
Many Thanks
Scott
_________________________________________________________________
Txt a lot? Get Messenger FREE on your mobile.
https://livemessenger.mobile.uk.msn.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Leave it in forth and use a solenoid to pull in the clutch. Then tow it
up to highway speed and let out the solenoid. It will then bump start and
run. Probably want to use either a servo to control the throttle, or
maybe cruise control.
Cruise control is probably easier.
>
> I am currently considering building (emm .. let somebody build it) a
> pusher trailer. I am thinking about a Volkswagen bug or Ghia tail, it's
> simple, air cooled and I know a thing or two about it. However,
> controlling the clutch and/or transmission might be a nightmare. On the
> other hand, if I would
> be able to find a old VW based trike - I could extend the controls all the
> way into the cab of my truck.
>
> Any other suggestions on how to control transmission and/or clutch?
>
> mm.
>
>
>> John,
>>
>> It's up to you, and AC Propulsion made a genset trailer out of a
>> motorcycle engine and some crack engineering that got them 35mpg in
>> the TZero so it can be done.. sort of.. but I've thought about this as
>> well and the more I think about it, the more I think that a cool
>> looking pusher trailer made out of a motorcycle back end and
>> engine/controls, would be much preferable to a genset trailer for long
>> trips. At least for a one off thing. And it would be so much simpler!
>>
>> You could even do a nifty fiberglass canopy that is all SWOOSHY and
>> stuff and looks like bladerunner. :)
>>
>> --T
>>
>> On 4/8/07, John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I'll just buy a ready-made propane genset. I could get a kit, but it
>>> doesn't seem to save any money.
>>> Will check the legality, but don't much care about letter-of-law except
>>> for liability issues and tickets. Sort of same attitude you guys have
>>> in
>>> exceeding the stated gross weight of your donor.
>>>
>>> I would never use a pusher trailer. Thats where *I* draw the line.
>>>
>>> cheers
>>>
>>> JF
>>>
>>> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>> >> 3) propane is the likely first power source instead of gasoline. My
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > I believe that propane will be a show stopper for you. You can't
>>> legally
>>> > use a propane powered engine in car unless it's done by a certified
>>> > propane converter (which you are not).
>>> > Because of the overhead in getting the conversion approved, it's
>>> unlikely
>>> > that you will be able to convince a certified converter to design,
>>> test,
>>> > and certify a one-off project...unless you have really deep pockets?
>>> >
>>> > You might be able to pull a legal fast one by towing a propane
>>> powered
>>> > generator behind an EV. But if you are planning on regularly pulling
>>> a
>>> > trailer, you might as well pull a pusher trailer and save the double
>>> > conversion losses.
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Mike Willmon wrote:
However there is only 1 axle I think is worthy of placement under the
Pinto and thats a Ford 9".
I agree with Mike, only a Ford nine inch under that Pinto!
I get that, Mike, but I'm suggesting you carefully choose WHICH 9-inch
axle you slide under that Pinto, as there are MANY different widths,
offsets, and etc. available over the years of stock production, and
that's before you even go to custom.
Good points, Randii.
In my recent discussions with 'Strange Engineering' as I was shopping
for the best aluminum third member setup, they at first, suggested I use
their custom 12 bolt Ford nine inch aluminum cast drop-in mod. The 12
bolt places the pinion at a more centered position that nets a healthy
3% efficiency gain. When I asked about the durability compared to the
standard Ford offset pinion they admitted it wasn't as strong and added
that for an electric car though, it should be OK...that's when I told
them about the cracked ring gear set in the 1st nine inch, then the
split case in the 2nd nine inch, and about the 772 ft. lbs. of torque
that slams-on at zero rpm. They decided I'd better stay with the
standard design! Still, for anyone else with perhaps a bit less power on
tap but still wanting a BIG diff. to keep things from breaking in back,
that 12 bolt drop-in's 3% efficiency gain sounds pretty good. Mike's
Pinto with its twin 9 inch motors and a Z2K Zilla fed by Genesis
batteries will have even more torque than my car, so it will be
interesting to see what rear end setup Mike chooses.
Strange had a couple different aluminum castings I could choose from. I
went with their drag race model who's casting (they say) is even
stronger than the nodular iron version. Compared to the stock Ford raw
steel case at 42 lbs. without the bearings, gears, and spiders or locker
setup installed, the aluminum beauty I now have in my hot racer's hands
weighs just 14 lbs....that's a 28 lb. weight savings! This new third
member is being set up with new 3:70 gears that will lower the
end-of-track motor rpm, probably push the car over 110 mph trap speed,
and hopefully help it break into the 11s in the quarter.
To further shed weight and to help reduce Tim's pucker factor, the heavy
drum brake affair in back is being dumped and new 'Wilwood' high
performance twin piston caliper drag racing disc brakes are being
fitted. They say the conversion kit is good for another 40-50 lbs. off
the axle, but I think it will be closer to 30 lbs. - still another nice
drop in weight for the car.
Cool project!
Randii
Oh man, I couldn't agree more! When Mike's Pinto hits the track, I'll be
one of his biggest cheer leaders.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> the Z36-371-ML3P-76 is a 28.8kWh battery, with a weight of only 245kG
> (quite compatible with a small 2-seat car) and a nominal voltage of
> 370V, compatible with many AC drives.
I didn't think that battery was available for sale to individuals.
Also, don't these batteries need to be kept at around 250 to 300 degrees C ?
Does the weight above include the insulation and thermal management system
needed to keep them at this temperature? Can you keep them at this
temperature for 8-9 hours while at work with no AC available?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> For Geo Metro motor going into my taurus, I'm pretty convinced I need to
> try and control the clutch and shiting electronically using solenoids
> and stepper motors. I don't want to add a clutch pedal or even put the
> stick shift into the car since it won't end up fitting into the right
> place. So that's what I'd suggest you try. The clutch shouldn't be a
> big issue, but the shifting seems like it takes some "wiggling" at
> times, that seems pretty hard to do with solenoids.
> This must have been done before by someone, I seem to recall that
> handicap racers have all hand controls in their cars, but that might be
> a very expensive setup.
>
I believe most vehicles with hand controls use automatic transmissions.
Kind of avoids the clutch and shifter issues.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Peter and Evan, and I didn't realize Uve's calculator was being
that rosy about things :) I'm definitely looking forward to talking
with folks live about this whole thing.
I didn't realize the BB600s were designed for high power, low
capacity. That surprises me, since it appears that many of the
Marathon battery 'systems' use them for running equipment, or so it is
shown in some of their promo photos. Also the anecdotal information
from folks talking about their endurance. That, of course, changes the
tack. I'll reserve judgment until I get the manufacturer info tho, and
do a LOT more research, including talking more to people here who've
used them.
I had thought about the Zebra battery.. I didn't realize that
individuals could buy them and even so, the price is high.. something
like $500/kWh (less for volume, according to AC Prop). That would mean
that battery would cost something in the neighborhood of $15k.
I realize that lithium is where EV folks are pushing things, but I'm
skeptical since they lose 10% of their permanent capacity per year, no
matter how nice you treat them. They obviously have uber Wh/kg, but
$/Wh is way too high at the moment for them to be even remotely
practical, unless I were doing this as an exercise more than anything
else!
I realize the elusive 100+ miles per charge is tough unless you go
lithium at the moment.. I'm going to keep thinking about it, and
researching it.
...and I wonder why SAFT charges so much for those NiCads? They -cant-
be that expensive to make. We're talking extremely mature technology.
Maybe a truck will drop a pallet of NiMH batteries and I'll be all set! :-)
One option that could be suitable is the Zebra battery - for example
the Z36-371-ML3P-76 is a 28.8kWh battery, with a weight of only 245kG
(quite compatible with a small 2-seat car) and a nominal voltage of
370V, compatible with many AC drives.
This battery also has a comparably long (or better) cycle life to
Nicad, and would be suitable for this sort of heavy daily use.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter,
If the battery is under charge it keeps its own temperature at that
level. They put in extra capacity as if you totally discharge one of
these you have to 'restart' it which can take a couple of days
(according to the wikipedia entry). Yes the weight includes
everything.. they come in a big box package with all sorts of chunky
bits sticking out, whirring and rumbling at you.
On 4/9/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> the Z36-371-ML3P-76 is a 28.8kWh battery, with a weight of only 245kG
> (quite compatible with a small 2-seat car) and a nominal voltage of
> 370V, compatible with many AC drives.
I didn't think that battery was available for sale to individuals.
Also, don't these batteries need to be kept at around 250 to 300 degrees C ?
Does the weight above include the insulation and thermal management system
needed to keep them at this temperature? Can you keep them at this
temperature for 8-9 hours while at work with no AC available?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
if you are talking about a full EV conversion I agree. But if you leave the
muffler and exaust on one side and the gas tank on the other there is no space
for batteries. Since we want the range gas affords we can remove them.
as for placing the motor right next to the differential I am not sure how you
would do that. Since the differential is made to move and move fast depending
upon pot holes and load I do not see how to keep proper alignment. I do not
know how to mount a "floating" 150 lb motor.
via Treo
David Hrivnak
-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subj: Re: Odd (or maybe not) Hybrid thought
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2007 12:45 am
Size: 741 bytes
To: [email protected]
On Apr 8, 2007, at 9:34 PM, David Hrivnak wrote:
> I have measured the full size
> trucks and there just is not room for a Warp 9.
That seems strange. If people can put batteries around the driveshaft,
there ought to be room for a motor, especially if it's inline with the
driveshaft.
See the many examples in the EVAlbum. Here's one:
<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/112>
Another possibility: install a lift kit. I've seen trucks jacked up so
high you'd be able to fit a whole extra car under there. It ought to
be possible to jack up the rear high enough to fit a motor under the
bed, especially if you put it close to the diffferential.
Did I miss something?
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://www.gdunge.com/
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--- Begin Message ---
On 4/9/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> the Z36-371-ML3P-76 is a 28.8kWh battery, with a weight of only 245kG
> (quite compatible with a small 2-seat car) and a nominal voltage of
> 370V, compatible with many AC drives.
I didn't think that battery was available for sale to individuals.
Hi Peter,
Well, they have high volume orders to deal with. I've been told that
if you are serious, you should be able to secure a battery.
Also, don't these batteries need to be kept at around 250 to 300 degrees C ?
i believe that this is essentially transparent to the user, other than
having a fairly high self-discharge rate (not a hugely important
factor if you are using it every day).
Does the weight above include the insulation and thermal management system
needed to keep them at this temperature? Can you keep them at this
temperature for 8-9 hours while at work with no AC available?
Yes, to both questions. The battery is made as a complete system with
BMS, thermal management and housing. With the right controller and
charger, it's supposed to be "plug and play", although you pay for
that.
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<snip>
Horribly dangerous.
Well, you could easily set up a switch that put the pusher in neutral
when you hit the brake. As long as that was engineered reasonably
well, you shouldn't have to worry. In fact, with a motorcycle pusher,
its even easier, since you could hook up something to put in the
clutch and back off the accelerator when you hit the brake.
Or, if you were adventurous, you would just bring the controls into
the car onto a lever that had the actual throttle and clutch on it,
and use an RQRiley trick by hooking that lever to the actual
transmission of the motorbike via cables. So, just by pushing the
lever forward or back you would be shifting the bike.
In the cabin of your car you would also have a small panel for
starting and turning off the bike, with the kill switch a nice, big,
jolly red button.
I think it would be kinda neat :) Maybe ultimately that's how I'll
solve my range problem.
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> Another possibility: install a lift kit. I've seen trucks jacked up so
> high you'd be able to fit a whole extra car under there. It ought to
> be possible to jack up the rear high enough to fit a motor under the
> bed, especially if you put it close to the diffferential.
>
Measure the length of the existing drive shaft, then subtract the length
of the motor and couplers. Might not be a lot of drive shaft left.
Mounting the motor next to the differential is a problem. In most trucks
the differential bounces up and down with the wheels. The drive shaft
needs to be able to bend (at the u-joints) to accomondate this, as well as
telescoping to handle the changing distance to the diff as it moves up and
down.
If the motor is close to the diff, then either the motor will have to move
with the diff (adding to your unsprung weight) or you have to have a very
short drive shaft with really severe bends during movement. This will
drastically shorten the life of the u-joints and drive shaft.
Not to mention that you still need enough room for two u-joints AND a
telescoping shaft to handle the movement. Doesn't matter whether this is
before or after the motor.
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--- Begin Message ---
> ...and I wonder why SAFT charges so much for those NiCads? They -cant-
> be that expensive to make. We're talking extremely mature technology.
Huh???
Have you checked the prices for Nickel recently? I wouldn't be surprised
if there was $100 or more worth of Nickel alone in each battery.
Cadmium went through a shortage a couple years ago, but I think the price
has dropped back to normal now.
Plus, I believe, Saft is required by EU regulations to recycle their
batteries. I gather that recycling NiCads isn't as simple, or cheap, as
recycling Lead-Acid batteries.
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--- Begin Message ---
Ok, but that still doesn't address the availability issue or how long it
takes them to cool off when NOT being charged. They don't have to cool
off all the way to ambient before they stop working. I think once they
fall below about 250 degrees they start to solidify.
I believe the original poster stated that charging at work is probably not
an option.
> Peter,
>
> If the battery is under charge it keeps its own temperature at that
> level. They put in extra capacity as if you totally discharge one of
> these you have to 'restart' it which can take a couple of days
> (according to the wikipedia entry). Yes the weight includes
> everything.. they come in a big box package with all sorts of chunky
> bits sticking out, whirring and rumbling at you.
>
> On 4/9/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> > the Z36-371-ML3P-76 is a 28.8kWh battery, with a weight of only 245kG
>> > (quite compatible with a small 2-seat car) and a nominal voltage of
>> > 370V, compatible with many AC drives.
>>
>> I didn't think that battery was available for sale to individuals.
>> Also, don't these batteries need to be kept at around 250 to 300 degrees
>> C ?
>>
>> Does the weight above include the insulation and thermal management
>> system
>> needed to keep them at this temperature? Can you keep them at this
>> temperature for 8-9 hours while at work with no AC available?
>>
>> --
>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
>> I
>> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
>> legalistic signature is void.
>>
>>
>
>
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I still really like the idea of a motorcycle as pusher. Plus you can
trick it out to look roadwarrior-ish really easy.
Bring the throttle and clutch into the cabin onto a lever next to your
shifter. Setup the lever connected to the motorcycle transmission so
that kicking it forward upshifts, kicking back downshifts.
Simple :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/9/07, Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I realize the elusive 100+ miles per charge is tough unless you go
lithium at the moment.. I'm going to keep thinking about it, and
researching it.
It's certainly *easier* - you can just throw money at the problem, buy
the advanced battery and it goes away. Even with a conversion of a
normal ICE vehicle.
Another approach is to start with an affordable (to you) amount of and
type of battery, and then design your vehicle around that. You'll
probably end up with something small, light, unconventional looking
and perhaps a reduced number of wheels.
...and I wonder why SAFT charges so much for those NiCads? They -cant-
be that expensive to make. We're talking extremely mature technology.
I could explain my theory about that but not in public ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/9/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Ok, but that still doesn't address the availability issue or how long it
takes them to cool off when NOT being charged. They don't have to cool
off all the way to ambient before they stop working. I think once they
fall below about 250 degrees they start to solidify.
157 degrees C, yes. In operation they work at a higher temperature,
so after driving there will be residual heat which will take time to
dissipate (I don't know exactly how long but several hours at least).
Eventually the temperature will fall to a minimum level and the system
will switch on an electric heater (powered by the battery) to maintain
the temperature at a level suitable for driving.
The thermal loss is about 100W, so you can see that leaving the
vehicle for several days without charging will lose something like 10%
capacity per day - clearly if you needed to leave it for a long time
without access to AC power, you'd be better to let it freeze and then
re-heat when necessary.
Yes, it's a drawback but it's not a show-stopper. In winter, in a
cold area, you'd be using as much electrical heating or leaving the
charger plugged in with a lead-acid (or li-ion) battery anyway.
I believe the original poster stated that charging at work is probably not
an option.
Timothy *is* the original poster, that's who you were responding to ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> I realize that lithium is where EV folks are pushing things, but I'm
> skeptical since they lose 10% of their permanent capacity per year, no
> matter how nice you treat them. They obviously have uber Wh/kg, but
> $/Wh is way too high at the moment for them to be even remotely
> practical, unless I were doing this as an exercise more than anything
> else!
>
As you do your research remember to take cycle life into account.
Caution: rhetorical question follows;
Which is better,
A $1000.00, 1000lb, 12kwh battery pack that lasts 15,000 miles or a $20,000.00,
400lb, 17kwh battery pack that lasts 250,000 miles?
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Apr 2007 at 10:17, Timothy Balcer wrote:
> I had thought about the Zebra battery.. I didn't realize that
> individuals could buy them and even so, the price is high.. something
> like $500/kWh (less for volume, according to AC Prop).
Actually, that puts it in the neighborhood of the Saft STM nicads - perhaps
even a bit lower, since the dollar's value has fallen markedly against the
Euro in recent years.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
I think this results from positive grid corrosion - typically a symptom of
chronic overcharging.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Danny:
It is a misconception that drawing high currents from deep cycle batteries
is always bad. If certain rules are followed, drawing high currents (within
safe limits, and not letting the Voltage drop below 1.2 VPC at high
currents) for short periods of time does not cause any damage to the
battery.
We have made some changes recently that improve deep cycle golf car type
batteries, including US125, capacity, high rate discharge capability, and
life.
WE are focused on continual improvement, and based on the customer's
frequently asked questions, alter our web site periodically. Beyond that, I
am glad to address any specific questions.
USBMC have an extremely low (and most likely the lowest) warranty claim rate
in the industry. Despite that, we are always trying to improve our products
to give the customer the best possible battery for the price.
Sincerely
Nawaz Qureshi
-----Original Message-----
From: Danny Ames [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 10:35 AM
To: EV SEND MSG
Subject: Nawaz Qureshi question has the US125 gotten any better overy the
last few years ?
Nawaz,
Regarding high current demands of an EV accelerating has the US125 gotten
any better in say the last 3 years or more robust in dealing with sustained
high currents draws of say 300 amps over 30 seconds.
Is this asking to much from a US125 and one would significantly diminish its
battery life with that type of EV driving ?
The USbattery quality link belows shows many interesting facts is their
anything else you would add ?
http://www.usbattery.com/pages/usbquality.htm
When were these enhancements added or over what period of time.
Have you noticed less product defects more uniform batches.
Thanks,
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/9/07, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 9 Apr 2007 at 10:17, Timothy Balcer wrote:
> I had thought about the Zebra battery.. I didn't realize that
> individuals could buy them and even so, the price is high.. something
> like $500/kWh (less for volume, according to AC Prop).
Actually, that puts it in the neighborhood of the Saft STM nicads - perhaps
even a bit lower, since the dollar's value has fallen markedly against the
Euro in recent years.
True, it's similar in price. The Zebra battery is manufactured in
Switzerland so devaluation of the dollar probably has a similar effect
on it though..
--- End Message ---
