EV Digest 6651
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Sparrow rear bearings.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Pusher ideas, Was: Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Balancing Lithium batterys - how does this work?
by Ian Hooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Intro
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Pusher ideas, Was: Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & F
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Sparrow rear bearings.
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Fwd: Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Intro
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: alltrax controller output
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Future Killacycle VIDEOS - Please ??
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Future Killacycle VIDEOS - Please ??
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Fw: NEEAA news - great meeting coming up April 14
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Intro
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: alltrax controller output
by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: alltrax controller output
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Intro
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Future Killacycle VIDEOS - Please ??
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Intro
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: C,mm,n (common) open source car project by Dutch universities
by "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Balancing Lithium batterys - how does this work?
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EV APU (genset) emissions & FE
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) thanks
by DAVID BARWICK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) thanks
by DAVID BARWICK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Intro
by "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I hear the orginal Sparrow rear bearing makes noise and should be left
alone. Well a "mechanic" got hold of one and mushroomed the shaft and got a
drill stuck in the back hub trying to get the bearing out. Is there any way
of replacing the orginal swingarm bearings without buying the Meyers Motors
3k replacement? My machinist has it now & he's stumped on an inexpensive
fix. Lawrence Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Morning Bill:
I need two bare bones (or nearly so) 24 volt, 8 amp charge
controllers. Hopefully, EE still dabbles in these devices?
/Bob
On Apr 8, 2007, at 6:59 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
When I see "racing" and "competition", I fear the
education component is about to go by the wayside,
and a teacher is about to get a note in the file,
if not fired, for failing to carry out state and
district-mandated objectives. That's our (teachers')
job.
From: BadFishRacing
Woah Bob. Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying "Racing"
and "Competition" is not educational?
'Fraid so!
"All children are born scientists and engineers. Watch them at
play; they are experimenting, building, and learning. That's
engineering! Then we spend years in school squashing it out of them."
-- Geoffrey Orsak, dean of engineering, Southern Methodist University
The hardest part of our BEST program is to avoid the testing and
"cookie cutter" approach to education mandated by the government
and school administration. For the most part, we "fly below their
radar". BEST gives kids a direct, personal reason for learning --
they want to build things! And, we spend more time teaching them
*how* to think, and less on *what* to think.
In BEST, there are no tests; if it works, it's good, and the kids
can judge that for themselves. Copying or looking up answers is not
cheating; it's how you learn and move forward. There are no
authorities; only experts.
The teachers we work with need to be comfortable operating outside
the "official" curriculum. It's getting harder and harder, as
administrations keep trying to micro-manage things ever more
rigorously in the classroom.
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not a motorcycle owner, and don't know, but are there not any automatic
bikes out there? If not, wonder how one could use a centrifical clutch, like
that in a snowmobile? This would seem easier to control, lots less cabling,
quite safe, and like Timothy said, could be really cool looking..
Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I still really like the idea of a
motorcycle as pusher. Plus you can
trick it out to look roadwarrior-ish really easy.
Bring the throttle and clutch into the cabin onto a lever next to your
shifter. Setup the lever connected to the motorcycle transmission so
that kicking it forward upshifts, kicking back downshifts.
Simple :)
Michael Barkley
"You might be a REDNECK, if it ain't ELECTRIC"
www.texomaev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 09/04/2007, at 9:37 PM, Scott Littledike wrote:
Hi there,
I have been reading the recent thread on charging lithium batteries
and was interested in how they should be balanced, what the process
is etc. For example,from what i understand the A123 cells need a
constant current charge to 3.6V. (please correct me if im wrong)
Yep that's correct, 3.6 volts for the A123 cells, though the peak
voltage does vary for different lithium chemistries.
The charging scheme for lithiums is known as "constant current,
constant voltage". As I understand it, for the first stage of
charging the charger needs to adjust its voltage to maintain a
constant current until the cells reach a peak voltage, then stage 2
is holding that voltage while the charge current tapers off. Charging
terminates when the current has dropped off sufficiently, e.g to
about 1/10th the original current.
So, the basic job of a balancer is to ensure none of the cells are
overcharged above 3.6V, and is to move charge into the least
charged cells? how would this be performed - during the charging
process i assume?
The most common charge balancing method is shunt or bleed, a form of
passive balancing, whereby each cell has its own little monitoring
circuit able to bypass the cell or bleed off the charge current once
the cell reaches it's target voltage to avoid overcharging. What you
speak of (moving charge into the least charged cells) is active
balancing, and is less common because it's much harder. In fact I
don't really know how they do it.. anyone?
Would a balancer scan each individual cell voltage, and stop
charging if any of the cells were overcharged?
It's best for the charger to keep going until all the cells are
charged, and have the battery management systems bypass any fully
charged cells to avoid overcharging. But yes, the BMS does have to
monitor each individual cell voltage in some way or another.
Also, the BMS should definitely be capable of isolating the pack (e.g
opening the main contactor) when any cell reaches it's lowest voltage
point (2.0 volts for the A123 cells) to avoid damage due to over-
discharging.
Then, to top up the least charged cell - would the balancer charge
this cell individually, or would say, the cell be connected with
another in parallel (with some form of current limiting) to move
charge across?
Yeah, not sure. It's tricky because the cells are always connected
together in the pack so you always have different voltage potentials,
so you can't easily transfer charge between them. You'd need some
form of isolated charge transfer system, maybe relays and
capacitors..? If anyone knows how active charge balancing works I'd
be keen to know too!
-Ian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As you do your research remember to take cycle life into account.
Caution: rhetorical question follows;
Which is better,
A $1000.00, 1000lb, 12kwh battery pack that lasts 15,000 miles or a $20,000.00,
400lb, 17kwh battery pack that lasts 250,000 miles?
Oh believe me, thats definitely part of my budding spread sheet. Along
with dollar devaluation calculations over cycle life. The issue is, as
always, capital.
The thing is, Lithium batteries won't last 250,000 miles unless you
are a very heavy driver, and even then probably not. Which is why the
NiMH travesty is so annoying to all of us.
Maybe someone should work on a flooded chemistry for Lithium. :)
It's obvious... Lead Acid over lifetime works better than anything out
there except maybe the Zebra battery, which purportedly has huge cycle
life. It's a balancing act, as everyone probably knows! Wh/kg vs range
vs price over lifetime. I'd guess thats why Tesla and AC are going
with commoditized Lithium for their packs, because they just can't get
the range they need any other way and keep GVW down.
I'd love to ask the AC Prop guys why they abandoned the Zebra battery,
though. They presented the possibility of using it in 2002 at a CARB
meeting. Google 'Ac Propulsion Zebra battery' A very nice presentation
in PDF.
Link: http://www.acpropulsion.com/PDF%20files/ANB%20ZEV%20comments%204.pdf
--T
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's one:
http://www.ridleymotorcycle.com/html/Ridley_Main.htm
On 4/9/07, Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm not a motorcycle owner, and don't know, but are there not any automatic
bikes out there? If not, wonder how one could use a centrifical clutch, like
that in a snowmobile? This would seem easier to control, lots less cabling,
quite safe, and like Timothy said, could be really cool looking..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could join the Sparrow group and ask there...
I had my bearings replaced at a local machine shop. They pushed out
the old ones, fixed the bearing mounts to be round (corbin had warped
them), and pressed in new bearings. It's a standard size.
At 08:35 AM 4/9/2007, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I hear the orginal Sparrow rear bearing makes noise and should be left
alone. Well a "mechanic" got hold of one and mushroomed the shaft and got a
drill stuck in the back hub trying to get the bearing out. Is there any way
of replacing the orginal swingarm bearings without buying the Meyers Motors
3k replacement? My machinist has it now & he's stumped on an inexpensive
fix. Lawrence Rhodes....
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry folks, message sent in error.
/Bob
Begin forwarded message:
From: Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: April 9, 2007 8:43:12 AM PDT
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Getting Highschools started in EV conversions?
Morning Bill:
I need two bare bones (or nearly so) 24 volt, 8 amp charge
controllers. Hopefully, EE still dabbles in these devices?
/Bob
On Apr 8, 2007, at 6:59 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
When I see "racing" and "competition", I fear the
education component is about to go by the wayside,
and a teacher is about to get a note in the file,
if not fired, for failing to carry out state and
district-mandated objectives. That's our (teachers')
job.
From: BadFishRacing
Woah Bob. Am I misunderstanding, or are you saying "Racing"
and "Competition" is not educational?
'Fraid so!
"All children are born scientists and engineers. Watch them at
play; they are experimenting, building, and learning. That's
engineering! Then we spend years in school squashing it out of them."
-- Geoffrey Orsak, dean of engineering, Southern Methodist University
The hardest part of our BEST program is to avoid the testing and
"cookie cutter" approach to education mandated by the government
and school administration. For the most part, we "fly below their
radar". BEST gives kids a direct, personal reason for learning --
they want to build things! And, we spend more time teaching them
*how* to think, and less on *what* to think.
In BEST, there are no tests; if it works, it's good, and the kids
can judge that for themselves. Copying or looking up answers is
not cheating; it's how you learn and move forward. There are no
authorities; only experts.
The teachers we work with need to be comfortable operating outside
the "official" curriculum. It's getting harder and harder, as
administrations keep trying to micro-manage things ever more
rigorously in the classroom.
--
"Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the one who is
doing it." -- Chinese proverb
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/9/07, Timothy Balcer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'd love to ask the AC Prop guys why they abandoned the Zebra battery,
though. They presented the possibility of using it in 2002 at a CARB
meeting. Google 'Ac Propulsion Zebra battery' A very nice presentation
in PDF.
Link: http://www.acpropulsion.com/PDF%20files/ANB%20ZEV%20comments%204.pdf
It's a bit of a leap to say that they "abandoned" it!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's current multiplication for you!!
At low throttle settings.. you get 300 amps at about 10 volts. That's how
controllers work.
It looks to me like your settings are still at factory max.
Nice data plot !
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "dale henderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 3:52 PM
Subject: alltrax controller output
I have an alltrax 300 amp controller, but am a little confused by the output
I'm getting. Any help would be appreciated: is there any way I can use the
output data or do I need to find another solution to track amps?
I have the alltrax max output current set at 75% so 225 should be the max
[300 * .75], however as can be seen in the output current [second to last
column] the amps are exceeding 225. What is more confusing is the high
current values with a low throttle positions
Sample output
TimeStamp ThrottlePos BatteryVolt OutputCurrent BatteryCurrent
26:42.8 0 47.4 0 0
26:43.8 0 47.4 0 0
26:44.8 26 44.9 281 73.8
26:45.8 37 43.6 290 108
26:46.8 45 42.7 303 135.5
26:47.8 55 41.7 316 172.3
26:48.8 64 40.9 330 212.2
26:49.8 70 40.2 321 225.3
26:50.8 73 40.6 294 213.3
26:51.8 72 41.1 268 193.4
26:52.8 75 41.1 272 202.7
26:53.8 93 38.2 360 336
26:54.8 93 38.5 343 318.8
26:55.8 0 46.7 0 0
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
---------------------------------
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Almost all the EV Drag Videos are from one perspective and one only.
THE TAKE OFF... Its GREAT but....
Its wonderful, but will some one, Please, get a small team, say THREE
folks ...Three Cameras... One at take off, one Mid Track, and ONE near
the FINISH, showing the Car/Motorcycle/whatever AT SPEED !!! Then just
Stitch the three pieces into a KILLER 10 second Video...
Almost all the videos to date, just show this little DOT of a vehicle
disappearing into the distance... And of course that is not the whole
STORY is it. I would like to see the bike going by at 150 + I think
that could be JUST as dramatic as the tremendous LAUNCH.
What do you folks THINK...??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill - how about mounting one of those new-fangled small cameras on the gas
tank, er, somewhere up front on the bike? Or don't you have enough spare
power, lol?
----- Original Message ----
From: Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 9, 2007 12:47:42 PM
Subject: Future Killacycle VIDEOS - Please ??
Almost all the EV Drag Videos are from one perspective and one only.
THE TAKE OFF... Its GREAT but....
Its wonderful, but will some one, Please, get a small team, say THREE
folks ...Three Cameras... One at take off, one Mid Track, and ONE near
the FINISH, showing the Car/Motorcycle/whatever AT SPEED !!! Then just
Stitch the three pieces into a KILLER 10 second Video...
Almost all the videos to date, just show this little DOT of a vehicle
disappearing into the distance... And of course that is not the whole
STORY is it. I would like to see the bike going by at 150 + I think
that could be JUST as dramatic as the tremendous LAUNCH.
What do you folks THINK...??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: NEEAA news - great meeting coming up April 14
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 1) Next meeting April 14 2pm in CT - See "Transforming Energy" movie!
Hi EVerybody;
That time again! Come on out and see the Movie, above. The usual
get-to-gether at my place in CT> > 1) NEEAA meeting notice
> >
> > For this meeting, we will be having a very special program. The movie
> > ‘Transforming Energy’ will be shown. This film was screened in the
> > amphitheater at the NESEA show ‘Building Energy 07’ show in Boston to a
> > large and highly receptive crowd. It comes to us as a gracious loan
> > from Sustainable South Shore, a Mass Climate Action Network (MCAN)
> > chapter, the key envirogroup South of Boston, which has full
> > performance rights to it. Next showing will be at SSSh’s Sustainable
> > Living Festival on Earth Day Weekend, April 21 at Hull MA. Others are
> > planned. Transforming Energy is all about the need for the switch to
> > alternative energy in as short a time as possible. As one who was in
> > the audience at the only Boston showing, opinion is that it is
> > dynamite, on par with AIT and WKTEC, based on additional info as to the
> > cures for our damaged atmosphere not contained in either. Meeting will
> > be as usual otherwise, the movie should start at about 2:30. It lasts
> > an hour. Munchies as usual. Please bring a guest. Every American should
> > see this film
> >
> > Dave Robie, Secretary NEEAA
I let Dave speek up on this one. So Seeya at about 2 pm for the
smooze and show?
Seeya Sat.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Apr 2007 at 11:56, Timothy Balcer wrote:
> Lead Acid over lifetime works better than anything out
> there except maybe the Zebra battery ...
This really applies only to golf car batteries, and I suspect it's almost
exclusively because of the economics of scale. GC batteries are essentially
a commodity and competition for sales is fairly robust. IF (and that's a
big word) we could ever get production of advanced chemistry batteries in EV
size up to 1/10 the level at which GC batteries are produced, their price
would, I think, become more competitive.
Of course, it's a chicken and egg problem. Price is high, so demand is low,
so the price remains high. That was one of the ideas behind the Braude
Inititative (the CA EV mandate) - jumpstart demand and get advanced
batteries in serial production. Maybe it wouldn't have worked anyway, but
it never had a chance. It got mired in politics and legal action and that
pretty well killed it.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
i'm sorry none of you email made sense to me, i admit this is my first ev, so
is there some docs explaining the basics controller use?
Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That's current multiplication for you!!
At low throttle settings.. you get 300 amps at about 10 volts. That's how
controllers work.
It looks to me like your settings are still at factory max.
Nice data plot !
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "dale henderson"
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 3:52 PM
Subject: alltrax controller output
I have an alltrax 300 amp controller, but am a little confused by the output
I'm getting. Any help would be appreciated: is there any way I can use the
output data or do I need to find another solution to track amps?
I have the alltrax max output current set at 75% so 225 should be the max
[300 * .75], however as can be seen in the output current [second to last
column] the amps are exceeding 225. What is more confusing is the high
current values with a low throttle positions
Sample output
TimeStamp ThrottlePos BatteryVolt OutputCurrent BatteryCurrent
26:42.8 0 47.4 0 0
26:43.8 0 47.4 0 0
26:44.8 26 44.9 281 73.8
26:45.8 37 43.6 290 108
26:46.8 45 42.7 303 135.5
26:47.8 55 41.7 316 172.3
26:48.8 64 40.9 330 212.2
26:49.8 70 40.2 321 225.3
26:50.8 73 40.6 294 213.3
26:51.8 72 41.1 268 193.4
26:52.8 75 41.1 272 202.7
26:53.8 93 38.2 360 336
26:54.8 93 38.5 343 318.8
26:55.8 0 46.7 0 0
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
---------------------------------
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
Albuquerque, NM
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
---------------------------------
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't have time to go through it right now..
Lee Hart had a really good step by step how the electrons go through a
controller story many years ago..
Lee?? you wannt chime in here.
Basically what you see on your current plot is exactly what you should.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "dale henderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: alltrax controller output
> i'm sorry none of you email made sense to me, i admit this is my first ev,
so is there some docs explaining the basics controller use?
>
> Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That's current multiplication for
you!!
>
> At low throttle settings.. you get 300 amps at about 10 volts. That's how
> controllers work.
>
> It looks to me like your settings are still at factory max.
>
> Nice data plot !
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dale henderson"
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2007 3:52 PM
> Subject: alltrax controller output
>
>
> I have an alltrax 300 amp controller, but am a little confused by the
output
> I'm getting. Any help would be appreciated: is there any way I can use the
> output data or do I need to find another solution to track amps?
>
> I have the alltrax max output current set at 75% so 225 should be the max
> [300 * .75], however as can be seen in the output current [second to last
> column] the amps are exceeding 225. What is more confusing is the high
> current values with a low throttle positions
>
> Sample output
>
> TimeStamp ThrottlePos BatteryVolt OutputCurrent BatteryCurrent
> 26:42.8 0 47.4 0 0
> 26:43.8 0 47.4 0 0
> 26:44.8 26 44.9 281 73.8
> 26:45.8 37 43.6 290 108
> 26:46.8 45 42.7 303 135.5
> 26:47.8 55 41.7 316 172.3
> 26:48.8 64 40.9 330 212.2
> 26:49.8 70 40.2 321 225.3
> 26:50.8 73 40.6 294 213.3
> 26:51.8 72 41.1 268 193.4
> 26:52.8 75 41.1 272 202.7
> 26:53.8 93 38.2 360 336
> 26:54.8 93 38.5 343 318.8
> 26:55.8 0 46.7 0 0
>
>
>
> Albuquerque, NM
> http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
> http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
>
> ---------------------------------
> Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast
> with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
>
>
>
>
> Albuquerque, NM
> http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1000
> http://geocities.com/solarcookingman
>
> ---------------------------------
> Need Mail bonding?
> Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No kidding. Lead may be a neurotoxin but cadmium is highly carcinogenic
and generally seems far more dangerous than lead.
Me, I fear what might come from widespread use of cadmium as EV
batteries with the average joe. Seeing that stuff handled by
lowest-bidder reclaimation facilities, carelessly dropped into landfills
by the hundreds of lbs, abandoned in scrapyards or even a ditch is kind
of scary.
Don't take that as any type of criticism of people currently running
them. I just really really wish NiMH was available. There's still an
issue of nickel toxicity but that seems to be a much lesser issue than
cadmium.
Danny
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
...and I wonder why SAFT charges so much for those NiCads? They -cant-
be that expensive to make. We're talking extremely mature technology.
Huh???
Have you checked the prices for Nickel recently? I wouldn't be surprised
if there was $100 or more worth of Nickel alone in each battery.
Cadmium went through a shortage a couple years ago, but I think the price
has dropped back to normal now.
Plus, I believe, Saft is required by EU regulations to recycle their
batteries. I gather that recycling NiCads isn't as simple, or cheap, as
recycling Lead-Acid batteries.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Ciciora had the exact same thought. He placed himself in the
stands near the end of the track to take a video of the 8.16 run. I
would imagine that he will post that on YouTube as soon as he has a
spare moment to do so. (We are all quite busy catching up on things
we have been neglecting while getting ready for this last race.)
All of us on the KillaCycle team are mighty busy getting the bike
ready for each run. It is not just a matter of turning the key and
off you go. It is more like launching the space shuttle. We take what
videos and pictures we can in the "spare" moments at the track. All
my pictures are from the starting line because that is where I must
be to do my job as crew chief.
There will be some FANTASTIC high-definition TV footage of
this particular race on the VOOM channel (Dish Network) on episode #5
of the "Future Wheels" series. This series is slated to begin airing
sometime in May. Indeed, they had cameras on both ends of the track.
Bill Dube'
At 10:47 AM 4/9/2007, you wrote:
Almost all the EV Drag Videos are from one perspective and one only.
THE TAKE OFF... Its GREAT but....
Its wonderful, but will some one, Please, get a small team, say
THREE folks ...Three Cameras... One at take off, one Mid Track, and
ONE near the FINISH, showing the Car/Motorcycle/whatever AT SPEED
!!! Then just Stitch the three pieces into a KILLER 10 second Video...
Almost all the videos to date, just show this little DOT of a
vehicle disappearing into the distance... And of course that is not
the whole STORY is it. I would like to see the bike going by at
150 + I think that could be JUST as dramatic as the tremendous LAUNCH.
What do you folks THINK...??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
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I realize that lithium is where EV folks are pushing things, but I'm
skeptical since they lose 10% of their permanent capacity per year, no
matter how nice you treat them. They obviously have uber Wh/kg, but
$/Wh is way too high at the moment for them to be even remotely
practical, unless I were doing this as an exercise more than anything
else!
Well, there's lithium and there's lithium. The nano chemistries don't
suffer from calendar life issues to the same degree. Even the cheap
laptop cobalt chemistries lose much less than 10% per year when
treated right. Calendar life is a function of the state of charge and
temperature the battery is kept at, the rule of thumb that a chemical
reaction doubles in speed for ever 10 Kelvin rise holds true for
batteries as well.
In a laptop that's constantly plugged in the battery is being cooked
by the processor and kept at full state of charge, or deep cycled when
not plugged in. It still lasts 2-3 years with this kind of abuse. If
kept at partial state of charge like 90%, not cycled too deep (20%)
and kept at a nice and cool temperature when not in use, then the
battery should last in excess of 5 years. Booth Tesla and AC
propulsion believes it will last a lot longer from what I've heard, at
least for the typical user.
--
www.electric-lemon.com
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> A typical genny, even one of the new OHV 4-stroke inverter gennies,
> are not especially efficient or clean.
Which doesn't mean that we can't do better -- *IF* efficiency or
cleanliness happens to be the goal. Some folks may just be looking to
make that extra few miles of their commute. There's lots of rationale
not to do it, but precious little *recent* experimentation.
> I've read about technology that scans the road looking for emissions
> cheats, I don't know if it's actually in use though.
FWIW, this is *real* and California is using it, but it is also pretty
isolated. I see it about twice a year around Sacramento.
Randii
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I won't take anything away from the little guys who develop and invent
in their own shops (heck, I am one!) or the small businesses who develop
in their garages (HP and Apple), but I also won't take away from the big
businesses, and I don't see why it has to be necessarily one or the
other. Take it a step further -- the biggest business of all is
government, which does its own development, as well.
Larger companies have the budget to invest in development, manpower and
supplies, and grants/lobbies to engage the government meaningfully.
Whether they do so or not, that's another question.
Large companies can engage expensive processes that require larger
economies of scale (carbon fiber over fiberglass, for less weight, but
more cost on short scale, that only amortizes out over large scale).
That said, large companies have the disadvantage of having to pay full
benefits to their workers, meet the letter of law for environmental
restrictions, and meet full safety standards (which change every year!).
Large companies have larger overheads, and larger restrictions, but that
wraps back around to larger production runs, and larger risks undertaken
to commit to production.
There are advantages/disadvantages either way, and I'm not sure we gain
much by flagellating who does what better or why... does this discussion
really help development of EVs?
This feels like a red herring that just causes infighting amongst our
own ranks. :(
Randii
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Yeah, not sure. It's tricky because the cells are always connected
together in the pack so you always have different voltage potentials,
so you can't easily transfer charge between them. You'd need some
form of isolated charge transfer system, maybe relays and
capacitors..? If anyone knows how active charge balancing works I'd
be keen to know too!
There's a number of ways to do this. Lee Hart's battery balancer uses
a charger that is powered off of the full pack and switched to the
weak cell with relays. A microprocessors measures the cell voltages
and determines which cell need to be boosted.
Another way is to switch an energy storage device like a capacitor
from cell to cell, the capacitor will be charged from the highest
potential cell and discharged on the lower potential cells, thus
eventually equalizing the pack. This is not an ideal system for EVs
though, the equalizing is generally to weak to extend your range while
driving.
The reason to use active balancing is to extend your range. In a long
series string of batteries the weakest battery determines your range,
when the weak battery reaches its cut off voltage you have to stop
driving, even if the rest of the pack has 50% charge left, or you'll
kill the weak cell and in case of lithium; that may result in a fire.
By using a Lee Hart style balancer you can prop up the weak cell and
keep driving.
-Peter
--
www.electric-lemon.com
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I was thinking about safety issues and it seems to me, pusher trailers for
EV's are not *that* dangerous. First: The EV (my S-10 with 24 floodies) is
much heavier than the trailer. Second: There should be a variety of kill
switches, both, manual and automatic to ensure the trailer to be killed
whenever something happens. I was planning to provide all 12V to the
pusher from the EV so that the pusher wouldn't even be able to run without
the EV. One could even include a inertia switch to kill the pusher in the
event of hard braking or, yes, accident.
mm.
> Could you use cable controllers such as used on bicycle hand brakes or
> hydrualic lines?
>
> They are felxible and less prone to malfunction than electronic solenoid
> systems. Also you get a literal feel for how they are working through
> your hands. You get no manual feedback through electric solenoids just
> before they fail.
>
> I would hate to think what would happen if you had an uncontrollable
> pusher trailer shoving you down the road and you couldn't stop it. Seems
> horribly dangerous. In pusher tralier are essentially unbalnced and
> prone to jackknifing your vehicle in turns.
>
> A generator trailer is much safer and it is easier than trying to figure
> out gearing and load controls for a pusher trailer.
>
>
> I would never set foot in a car with a pusher trailer attached to it.
> Anytime your car hits slick spot in the road on a curve the pusher
> trailer will still have full grip and be pushing your rear end right
> around.
>
> Horribly dangerous.
>
>
>
> On Sun, 8 Apr 2007 11:07 pm, Jack Murray wrote:
>> For Geo Metro motor going into my taurus, I'm pretty convinced I need
>> to try and control the clutch and shiting electronically using
>> solenoids and stepper motors. I don't want to add a clutch pedal or
>> even put the stick shift into the car since it won't end up fitting
>> into the right place. So that's what I'd suggest you try. The clutch
>> shouldn't be a big issue, but the shifting seems like it takes some
>> "wiggling" at times, that seems pretty hard to do with solenoids.
>> This must have been done before by someone, I seem to recall that
>> handicap racers have all hand controls in their cars, but that might be
>> a very expensive setup.
>>
>> Jack
>>
>> Michaela Merz wrote:
>>> I am currently considering building (emm .. let somebody build it) a
>>> pusher trailer. I am thinking about a Volkswagen bug or Ghia tail, it's
>>> simple, air cooled and I know a thing or two about it. However,
>>> controlling the clutch and/or transmission might be a nightmare. On the
>>> other hand, if I would
>>> be able to find a old VW based trike - I could extend the controls all
>>> the
>>> way into the cab of my truck.
>>> Any other suggestions on how to control transmission and/or clutch?
>>> mm.
>>>
>>>
>>>> John,
>>>>
>>>> It's up to you, and AC Propulsion made a genset trailer out of a
>>>> motorcycle engine and some crack engineering that got them 35mpg in
>>>> the TZero so it can be done.. sort of.. but I've thought about this as
>>>> well and the more I think about it, the more I think that a cool
>>>> looking pusher trailer made out of a motorcycle back end and
>>>> engine/controls, would be much preferable to a genset trailer for long
>>>> trips. At least for a one off thing. And it would be so much simpler!
>>>>
>>>> You could even do a nifty fiberglass canopy that is all SWOOSHY and
>>>> stuff and looks like bladerunner. :)
>>>>
>>>> --T
>>>>
>>>> On 4/8/07, John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'll just buy a ready-made propane genset. I could get a kit, but it
>>>>> doesn't seem to save any money.
>>>>> Will check the legality, but don't much care about letter-of-law
>>>>> except
>>>>> for liability issues and tickets. Sort of same attitude you guys
>>>>> have in
>>>>> exceeding the stated gross weight of your donor.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would never use a pusher trailer. Thats where *I* draw the line.
>>>>>
>>>>> cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> JF
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3) propane is the likely first power source instead of gasoline. My
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe that propane will be a show stopper for you. You can't
>>>>>
>>>>> legally
>>>>>
>>>>>> use a propane powered engine in car unless it's done by a certified
>>>>>> propane converter (which you are not).
>>>>>> Because of the overhead in getting the conversion approved, it's
>>>>>
>>>>> unlikely
>>>>>
>>>>>> that you will be able to convince a certified converter to design,
>>>>>
>>>>> test,
>>>>>
>>>>>> and certify a one-off project...unless you have really deep pockets?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You might be able to pull a legal fast one by towing a propane
>>>>>> powered
>>>>>> generator behind an EV. But if you are planning on regularly
>>>>>> pulling
>>>>>
>>>>> a
>>>>>
>>>>>> trailer, you might as well pull a pusher trailer and save the double
>>>>>> conversion losses.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>
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sighnoff ev
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signoff ev
DAVID BARWICK <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: sighnoff ev
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<snip> Booth Tesla and AC
propulsion believes it will last a lot longer from what I've heard, at
least for the typical user.
Absolutely! I'm aware of the electrochemistry involved.. what I was
quoting was a number that is, admittedly, a rough aggregate.
As far as Tesla motors is concerned, they admit to about the same
lifetime problems. When talking to their first buyer they told her the
range would decrease in 5 years from 250 to 110 or so. They said that
of course in 5 years they would probably have better battery chem, and
cheaper pricing, and replacement wouldn't be a problem.. etc etc.
Given that, I am going to assume 10% minimum lost life until a
manufacturer comes out and says otherwise :-)
I'm very curious as to how this issue relates to A123's battery
chemistry as they haven't talked about lifetime that I can see (or
maybe they have! I only have two hands! :)
Re: Zebra batts and AC... well, they are using Lithiums for
everything, and their testimony before congress didn't (from what I
read) include Zebra technology.. they were talking almost exclusively
about lithium chemistry. Does anyone know if they plan on using the
Zebra tech for their economy car?
Cheers,
--T
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