Someone on this list did a Ford F-350 IIRC and I am not sure if that was
a straight EV, my memory seems to suggest that he added an electric
in between engine and driveshaft (transmission?), just like you are
planning. I believe it was one of the Johns on this list, forgot which

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless Corporation
Email: Private:
Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626

-----Original Message-----
From: EV [] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via
Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 2:12 PM
To: EVDL Administrator; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] How crazy am I?


Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful analysis! I *think* I'm dodging
most of the worst pitfalls you caution against. Specifically:

> The result is that your hybrid isn't going to be optimized as either
an ICEV 
> or an EV.  It's likely that its EV range will be less than a similar
> and its fuel efficiency less than a similar ICEV's.

It's a very safe bet that you're spot on...but, as wonderful as fuel
economy is, that's actually something that I think is reasonably quite
far down the list on this particular project.

The EV's efficiency is most important in terms of range and battery pack
size (and therefore cost, volume, weight, etc.) and secondarily in terms
of cents per mile. The ICEV's efficiency is pretty much all about cents
per mile.

For this project, I'm really only looking for a battery pack big enough
for local trips; a couple dozen miles would be plenty. I suspect that
the smallest pack that puts out the necessary voltage is going to be
just about the right size, even with those batteries having to lug
around all the extra weight of the combustion engine and transmission
and fuel and the like. And, even if it's right on the edge of being
enough for some particular trip, having to use the combustion engine for
the last mile or two of a twenty-mile trip really isn't a big deal.

So, for practical reasons, electric economy isn't (much of) a concern.
For financial reasons...well, I'm already generating so much surplus
electricity from my solar roof that the electricity for the vehicle is
going to be free, pretty much regardless -- and, again, even if I have
to buy the last couple kWh or so from the utility, that's again a
rounding error.

The combustion engine's efficiency when working alone will certainly
suffer, both from the added weight of the electric motor system and from
having to spin them. However, I don't anticipate ever wanting to use
only the combustion engine in isolation (save for emergencies). Rather,
I'd use the electric motor as a "traditional" Prius-style hybrid, for
acceleration and regenerative braking; that alone should significantly
more than make up for any losses introduced into the system. Will it be
as efficient as a new car, especially a new hybrid? Not even close. But
it'll be a lot more efficient than a classic Mustang, and the total
efficiency (when considering all-electric driving) will be so insanely
more efficient that, again, the fact that it doesn't do so great in an
absolute sense in certain limited situations isn't going to be worth
worrying about.

> From what I can see, it's (not surprisingly) any hybrid is tougher and
> expensive than a straight BEV conversion.  I think this is especially
> of a parallel hybrid, because you have somewhat less flexibility in 
> positioning components.

This has certainly been a big challenge in getting to this point. The
initial thought was something mounted in place of the generator, then
something mounted to the front of the crankshaft.

But I *think* it's (potentially) solved with the direct-drive
configuration. Even if the tunnel has to be enlarged a bit, there's
about 50" of driveshaft in the car that's nothing but a spinning rod.
Replacing a passive linkage with something that provides power makes a
lot of sense to me, and there's the physical room to fit it in.

That still leaves the question of where to put the controllers and the
batteries, but I'm less concerned about that. The controllers aren't all
that big, and likely would even fit under a seat. The batteries would
need more room...but I don't think the battery pack is going to be much
larger than a banker's box, and I can certainly spare that much volume
from the trunk.

> (One possibly more flexible parallel hybrid variant 
> is the "through the road" hybrid, where you drive the front wheels
with one 
> fuel and the rear wheels with another.)

I've investigated this, too. Using HPEVS- or NetGain-style motors to
provide power to the front wheels...I just don't see that happening.
That leaves hub wheel motors, and all the ones I've found that are
readily available (and not solely the plaything of a research lab
somewhere) aren't anywhere near powerful enough for a car the weight of
a Mustang.

If I'm mistraken on that and there really are hub wheel motors available
that would work, that would be a *very* attractive option to consider.
But a pair such wheels would have to be at least as powerful as an AC-35
or Warp 9, and I've not found such a beast.

> To get a final result that's as efficient and as seamless as one where
> team of automotive engineers designed it (Volt or Plug-in Prius), you 
> probably need to have some automotive engineer chops yourself.

Agreed -- and, fortunately, I'm not looking for something with the
efficiency or engineering elegance of those cars, and I don't mind
throwing a bit of brute force at the job (such as a pair of AC-50s) in
lieu of sophistication.

> Just remember that you have to provide all the patches that you'd have
to do 
> in a BEV - power brake vacuum, power steering pressure, and aircon
> You need a DC:DC converter (or, somewhat cruder and less efficient, a
> driven alternator) to provide 12v house power.  You need an electric
> source for cold weather driving.  (It occurs to me that in a homebrew
> you might be able to dispense with some or all of those items
burdening the 
> ICE.  Just remember that the energy to run them has to come from

Fortunately, electronics simply didn't exist in 1964. The car actually
has a generator, not an alternator, and the current fuel pump is
mechanical. The breaks and steering are fully mechanical.

I'm pretty sure I'll have to *add* electronics to the car to get it to
work ideally, such as an electric fuel pump and / or injection system so
the EV motor controller can shut off the combustion motor when it's
doing nothing.

The whole question of climate control is still one that's up in the air
for me, especially since I'm wondering if there's any way to tie that in
with keeping the batteries happy during the Arizona summer. Heating
generally isn't a concern, and I could probably live without it if
absolutely necessary. It'd be really nice to have air conditioning for
the cabin, but that's not an absolute requirement. I'm pretty sure,
though, that *some* sort of cooling is going to be necessary for the
electric motor and its components, and I wouldn't at all be surprised if
cooling turned out to be a significant limiting factor of real-world

> Kits aside, if you're a good hacker (in the positive sense) with lots
> spare time, a machine shop and the expertise to use it at your
disposal, and 
> nice deep pockets, what you describe would be a fascinating project.

My pockets aren't limitless, but I'm hoping that the money I'd otherwise
save on batteries will go a good part of the distance...and I have a
shade-tree mechanic who doesn't charge nearly what he should who's a
real artist when it comes to improvising and fabricating stuff.

Thanks again for the makes me think that I *might* still be
able to pull this off....

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