----- Original Message -----
From: Mr23 via EV<mailto:[email protected]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas
cars.
Roland, Mark, et al,
After posting Roland's comments somewhere else (MN PluginEV group on
FB), another member challenged it. Digging into the web I found that:
Apparently the project was due online in 2014 but was cancelled.
http://sequestration.mit.edu/tools/projects/antelope_valley.html<http://sequestration.mit.edu/tools/projects/antelope_valley.html>
A nearby plant in Bell Creek Montana did apparently go online in 2013
http://sequestration.mit.edu/tools/projects/bell_creek.html<http://sequestration.mit.edu/tools/projects/bell_creek.html>.
Roland, could you check your source?
Thanks,
-Chris
No, that's not the coal plant I am talking about. It's the one I found on line
over 10 years ago, that is in western North Dakota. I do not
remember the plants name which started out in the 70's. The article stated,
that they got rid of the CO2 by piping it into oil formations and later to
Canada. I thick I heard it was use to soften the Tar Sand formations, so the
loaders can strip the asphalt formation a lot easier.
The heavy asphalt formation is now re-refined with the large equipment that was
ship from Korea. This equipment raises the specific gravity of this asphalt
base to a liquid that can be pump thru the pipe line. CO2 and heat that is
remove during this process, is then return to a new formation.
A company was going to build a coal power plant just 20 miles north of Great
Falls. They could not meet the pollution standards at a cost of only
One Billion Dollars. The one in North Dakota cost about 4 billion for the
power plant, the coal strip mining, product separation, and pipe lines.
Roland
On 12/21/2014 11:42 AM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
> Can you give me some references where I might find more information about
> this plant, like their permit to operate or PSD permit (this is an attainment
> area, right?)?
>
> This sounds kinda like the perpetual motion machine equivalent in the air
> quality field, but I'm always open to hearing about new things.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Dec 21, 2014, at 8:21 AM, Roland via EV
>> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> As more coal plants are converted to 0% direct air pollution, then this will
>> be no problem. We have one coal generating plant about 460 miles east of us
>> that is in North Dakota. It has been converted to a 0% direct air
>> pollution. There is no main stack that releases CO2 and/or other compounds
>> in the air.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also there is no train and trucks that deliver the coal to the coal plant.
>> The large mining equipment only uses electric power that comes from this
>> coal plant. The coal is deliver by large electric drive conveyers that are
>> miles long.
>>
>>
>>
>> The coal is deliver to a coal processor where it is reduce to a fine dust
>> that is blown in from the bottom and at the top of the coal plant. As the
>> coal combines together in the middle of the stack, it is ignited. The
>> exhaust comes out of the side of the stack and goes down to generators that
>> produce the electricity.
>>
>>
>>
>> The exhaust exits out of the generator that goes to processor plant to
>> separate the compounds to be sold to manufacturers. The CO2 is deliver to
>> the oil fields in North Dakota and Canada, where it is injected into the oil
>> formations which increases the specific gravity of the oil to above 25%
>> which it then can be pipe directly to oil refineries with out pre-processing
>> to get it to the specific gravity that is needed to pump into a oil pipe
>> line.
>>
>>
>>
>> We have one pipe line that comes from Canada that goes to Great Falls,
>> Montana to a converted refinery that processes this oil. We sneak that one
>> in before it got delay like the Tar Sand oil pipe line. Note, they do not
>> pipe TAR SAND oil which is the asphalt base of this oil. It is pre-refine
>> to get it to a certain specific gravity, so it can be pump into a pipe line
>> and becomes the same specific gravity as the oils in the U.S.
>>
>>
>>
>> I use about 2.5 gallons of this oil products in my EV, which is 12 gts for
>> the transmission, 6 gts for the differential, 5 qts for the hydraulic pumps
>> for the power steering and power brakes. Then there is the greases for all
>> the bearings.
>>
>>
>>
>> I get the electricity from the indirect power of the sun and gravity. Water
>> rising from the oceans, falling back down through hydro dams of which we
>> have five here in Great Falls. One has just been converted with power houses
>> off the river instead of the standard dam type.
>>
>>
>>
>> Roland
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: Danny Ames via EV<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
>>
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion
>> List<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> ;
>> Sfeva<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
>>
>> Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2014 12:36 AM
>>
>> Subject: [EVDL] PNAS report cites study that EV's pollute more than gas cars.
>>
>>
>>
>> Report is titled: Life cycle air quality impacts of conventional
>> andalternative light-duty transportation in theUnited States
>>
>> It seems the main stream press has taken this to task citing the PNAS report
>> that EV's cars can pollute more than gas cars.
>>
>> Thus making the case for EVs more difficult to defend. What I'm not sure is
>> the report did not take into consideration I believe is the amount of
>> electricity to make the fuel. This single fact I think would
>> significantly alter the report to favor EV cars over gas.
>>
>> Of course their many of other reasons to drive EV's over ICE gas cars.
>>
>>
>> Some major news outlets and even my local news station KPIX TV started
>> citing a new report
>> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf#page=1&view=FitH<http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf#page=1&view=FitH<http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf#page=1&view=FitH<http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2014/12/10/1406853111.full.pdf#page=1&view=FitH>>
>> from the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. That EV's
>> pollute more than gas cars when you take in the energy to manufacture
>> the EV and batteries. What I could not find in the report so far is
>> citing the amount of energy it takes to make 1 gallon of gas. As cited
>> here
>> http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline<http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline<http://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline%3Chttp://gatewayev.org/how-much-electricity-is-used-refine-a-gallon-of-gasoline>>
>> it takes 6KW for 1 gallon of fuel.
>> Danny Ames
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