Depending on the availability and price of natural gas service, you could also
look at an ICE or fuel cell plumbed to the gas utility. Different kind of
very-convenient utility intertie, and keeps away from their regulations about
backfeeding the grid.
I had a 30kva natural-gas/propane dual-mode ICE genset feeding the other input
of the transfer switch that fed my UPS for fifteen years, and it served me well
through the dark days of Enron.
-Bill
> On Dec 22, 2014, at 8:26, "Chris Meier via EV" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Off-gridders usually have a genset for the low insolation periods. Try a used
> Prius?
>
>> On December 22, 2014 7:36:30 AM CST, Michael Ross via EV <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>> Hi Ben,
>>
>> What SRPs CEO knows and you will find out is you are diving into a
>> rabbit
>> hole. It is not a rational world down there, yet.
>>
>> I will just talk about batteries.
>>
>> It is important to know what your present and future power needs are.
>> For
>> instance, I just has a six week period this past July and August where
>> my
>> PV system made an average of 8kWh a day - I use 23kWh. As I write this
>> it
>> is completely dark and gray outside and raining once again. Obviously,
>> my
>> 5.6kW system is not big enough to span the time I may need more power
>> than
>> I can reasonably make even with battery storage. A good month where I
>> break
>> even with Duke Energy, I make 23 to 30 kWh a day. To go off grid have
>> to
>> guess what I will need to save for my location and it is probably at
>> least
>> 3 days worth of average use - based on current needs (no EV to charge)
>> -
>> round up to 100kWh at 120 and some 240VAC.
>>
>> You need to be brutally honest about your weather, how you feel about
>> your
>> use of power, and your willingness to go with far less power or without
>> completely for some periods of time. I see you live in a sunny place,
>> AZ,
>> but be honest - is it ever not sunny, and how well will your system
>> deal
>> with the worst case. How well will your wife an daughters, and so on.
>> How
>> have to design for the worst case and decide what you can manage.,
>>
>> In this way the grid is worth something to us all.
>>
>> On the battery front - you live an a place that gets quite hot, it get
>> hot
>> when have a lot of sunlight. This means you will subject your
>> batteries to
>> the worst possible conditions for their life - high heat and high state
>> of
>> charge. You should know that Leaf batter packs are proving to be very
>> a
>> lot of trouble in AZ and SoCal where they get hot, and Nissan did not
>> make
>> provisions to col them. Some packs have lost 27% of their capacity in
>> a
>> year and lawsuits are in process. The heat is killing them. You are
>> going
>> to need to cool the system actively. You need to know what the exact
>> cells
>> are in it and their particular needs. A mixed pack will need to have
>> climate control for the worst cells in it.
>>
>> Consider this LiFePO4 cells start to have real problems at 40°C (104°)
>> and
>> high states of charge. NMO at 35°C.
>>
>> This is a fascinating lecture in Li Ion batteries. [The fellow giving
>> it
>> Dr. Jeff Dahn, really knows what he is talking about (he has been
>> working
>> on Li ion since 1978, one of his main collaborators is now the head
>> engineer at Tesla for battery life, and another is building and selling
>> high precision cell test equipment for Bosch, Tesla (Panasonic), ATL,
>> and
>> others)]
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxP0Cu00sZs
>>
>> A list of Electorchemical papers is here:
>> http://www.dal.ca/diff/dahn/publications.html The 1st one
>> chronologically
>> is #422, and search on A.J Smith and J.C Burns for subsequent ones.
>>
>> In a nutshell the lecture says that most Li Ion battery testing in the
>> past
>> has been unable to evaluate long term performance. What happened to
>> Nissan
>> is liable to crop up with any EV packs out there (except perhaps
>> Tesla),
>> and you need to account for this with any home storage plan. If you
>> try to
>> use PbSO4 then they are more forgiving, but still a very expensive and
>> tricky proposition.
>>
>> In truth every Li ion chemistry, electrolyte package, manufacturer, and
>> form factor is a little unknown world unto itself, and the data on how
>> to
>> manage them for longevity is not yet available. You make a mixed pack
>> from
>> used EVs and you are asking for trouble.
>>
>> The questions is, are you offended by SRP so much that you would drop
>> $10k
>> to $20K to make a reliable home storage system? Or would you rather
>> send
>> the to SRP in little monthly bits for 30 years?
>>
>> Here is how it would look for me -
>>
>> Duke Energy charges me $19.50 a month when I net to no power use for
>> them.
>> Applying no time value of money - that is about 500 months before I
>> break
>> even on a $10K storage system.
>>
>> Roughing it out further, I would need to at least double my PV capacity
>> (I
>> have already gotten all the tax credit I can get, so I would spend $30K
>> for
>> an additional 6kW system with really quality components (Sunpower has
>> the
>> best chance of actually lasting 30 years) to meet my worst case needs,
>> And
>> I would probably be having some times of very low available power with
>> this system when I would have to be very conservative in my use of
>> stored
>> power. If I charge an EV I need even more. The storage system is
>> probably
>> $20K. $50K out of pocket.
>>
>> I am not happy with my utility, but I like my money more. In 30 years
>> I
>> can triple that $50K with conservative investing practices. The
>> heartache
>> of and time going into design a home storage system is not appealing
>> either. It will be risky and if you get it wrong the extra cost high.
>>
>> I believe simply waiting 10 or 20 years to see how all this shakes out
>> is a
>> smart move. Maybe buy some stock in Tesla and SolarCity - or similar.
>> Domestic storage is coming, doing it DIY right now sounds like a
>> foolish
>> and costly endeavor.
>>
>> I suspect that SRP and Duke have done their home work on this. I bet
>> they
>> know that tripling the grid use fee to you is actually what the market
>> will
>> bear. Be careful assuming they have done this wrong.
>>
>> MIke
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 21, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Ben Goren via EV <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So, I have my roof covered with solar panels. And Salt River Project,
>> my
>>> utility, is threatening to at least triple monthly "basic connection
>> fees"
>>> for solar "customers."
>>>
>>> I've decided that's not an option for me. Before I pay such Danegeld,
>> I'll
>>> get a bunch of batteries and drop off the grid entirely. (And I wrote
>> as
>>> much in a letter to SRP's CEO.) The rate increase is still in the
>> proposal
>>> stage and there'd be a period of some years before it'd go into place
>> for
>>> existing "customers"...but, still, now is the time to start planning.
>>>
>>> As I see it, I have two main reasonable options for the battery:
>>> nickel-iron or something discarded from an EV.
>>>
>>> Nickel-iron would either be expensive to purchase or a significant
>>> investment in time to make, but it should last forever.
>>>
>>> A few surplus / used / whatever EV batteries would presumably be much
>>> cheaper, but have a much more limited lifespan.
>>>
>>> Part of me would be inclined to go the nickel-iron route and never
>> have to
>>> deal with it again.
>>>
>>> Another part suggests to do things as cheaply as possible, even if it
>> only
>>> lasts a few years, because battery technology is improving so
>> rapidly.
>>>
>>> So...can anybody offer any suggestions? For example, what to expect
>> to pay
>>> for EV batteries that're no good for use in an EV but still hold
>> enough
>>> charge to be worth putting at the back of a closet?
>>>
>>> I'm assuming the battery output will go into the DC input on the
>> inverter
>>> I already have for the PV panels, and that, in turn, means that I
>> don't
>>> have to worry about matching voltages from different batteries. That,
>> for
>>> example, I should be just fine getting a surplus Leaf battery from
>> here and
>>> a Tesla battery from a wrecking yard there and so on until I've got
>> enough
>>> amp-hour capacity for my needs, and that I can add and remove
>> batteries
>>> later as the fancy tickles me. Is that a valid assumption?
>>>
>>> Anything else I should consider or start thinking about?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> b&
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
>> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
>> *Dalai Lama *
>>
>> Tell me what it is you plan to do
>> With your one wild and precious life?
>> Mary Oliver, "The summer day."
>>
>> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
>> Thomas A. Edison
>> <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>
>>
>> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
>> *Warren Buffet*
>>
>> Michael E. Ross
>> (919) 550-2430 Land
>> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google
>> Phone
>> (919) 631-1451 Cell
>> (919) 513-0418 Desk
>>
>> [email protected]
>> <[email protected]>
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>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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