Yes, my initial contract is net metering.  $0.09 each direction.  They want
to pay less for what they receive - that is what they proposed this fall to
the utility commission.  They can change up on me as long as they got
through channels.

They have another interesting trick.  If I "bank" some power one month
(paying only the minimum), that gets accumulated as a credit or it gets
used up on a subsequent low sunlight month.  But after the best sunny
months in the spring, they zero the account at the end of May.  Taking the
bank for $0.00.  This is ostensibly because I am not allowed to continue
producing more power than I need, and them have to actually send me money.
That would be a total no-no.

On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 12:32 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV <[email protected]>
wrote:

> A Key misconception here.  You say they charge $0.09 for electricity used,
> and will only pay $0.02 for your generation.  But that is NOT NET
> METERING.  Do not be confused.
>
>
>
> NET METERING means your meter runs forward and backward,  Only adding and
> subtracting kWh.
>
> If you use 10,000kWh per year AND your PV’s produce a total of 10,000 kWh
> per year, your net utilty bill is ZERO (plus the $8 or so fixed cost per
> month). (DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE ELECTRICTY COSTS)…
>
>
>
> SURE, if you OVER PRODUCE, beyond what you use in a year, then the utility
> should only have to pay the $0.02 rate because that is how cheaply they can
> get electricity from other sources and no reason to expect them to pay a
> higher price to you.  If you under produce, then you pay $0.09 per kWh as
> always.
>
>
>
> One does not add PV solar on their house to be a NET energy producer.  That
> is direct competition to the utility..  No, you put solar on your roof to
> reduce your NET electricity use from the utility to ZERO so you pay nothing
> (except the monthly access fee which in my case is $8 a month for UNLIMITED
> grid storage).
>
>
>
> If you are basing your economics on this misunderstanding of buying and
> sellilng electricity (instead of NET metering) your economics are off by a
> factor of 5 to 1.
>
>
>
> Bob, WB4APR
>
>
>
> *From:* Michael Ross [mailto:[email protected]]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, December 23, 2014 10:19 AM
> *To:* Robert Bruninga; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> *Subject:* Re: [EVDL] OT: batteries for solar PV off-grid (cost 10, 000
> times more)
>
>
>
> You are quite right Robert.  Presently, the grid is a better deal than
> storage.  How much PV is "worth" is another item entirely.
>
>
>
> At my home, I have used the best possible location for PV.  Trees have to
> come down (and not all of them mine) to get good sun.
>
>
>
> Tax credits have to be available AND I have to have enough tax liability to
> use them.  (PV is still to expensive to own without the subsidies (I am
> happy to get those given how freely they are usually distributed to
> corporate entities).
>
>
>
> Duke Progress can't be counted on to pay a fair price for the power I would
> store if I had more PV.  They have have floated the idea that I/we  should
> pay $0.09/kWh when buying power, but they will only pay $0.02 /kWh when I
> make it.  I do pay just under $20 a month when I use no power of theirs at
> all; supposedly to support the electrical service.  It isn't in the cost of
> a kWh apparently.   They say by having more power generation, but no extra
> paid in for grid service, that I/we are putting the cost of grid service
> onto all the poor folks that can't afford PV.  I think this is
> money-grubbing and PR, but that is the track they took last year.
>
>
>
> I pretty much can't justify the unsubsidized PV.  In the first sentence I
> said "presently."  I think that holds for all these things.
>
>
>
> I have reached my goal to reduce our utility expense as much as we
> reasonably can,,and we contribute some non-use of un-green power.
>
> I really like it that we contribute less to the mutli-million dollar
> salaries and fine offices, and that my power generation is nearly
> maintenance free for decades to come.  I am grateful that the fed and the
> state saw fit to make this possible.  The utility company would not have
> supported it .  They simply want nothing to succeed that they don't have
> firmly under their control.
>
>
>
> It is about the best we can do at this time.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 9:48 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV <[email protected]
> >
> wrote:
>
> > A 20-year T-bill right now is only paying about 2.5%...
> > Even if it takes 20 years to pay off the battery system...
>
> Batteries are not a source of energy.  They produce nothing.  Solar panels
> do.  Far better to spend X dollars available for more solar panels which
> pay off themselves in about 3 years and use the nearly free storage in the
> grid.
>
> Self-storage (if you have access to the grid) consumes $2 out of every $3
> invested in Solar with zero benefit other than about 4 hours of backup
> electricity a year (around here with a 99.96% reliable grid).  That's
> spending several thousands of dollars for about 60 cents worth of
> electricity.
>
> If you don't have the grid, then sure, on-site storage is required.
>
> Oh, my zero-usage electric  bill is an $8 fixed rate "meter" fee per
> month, or $100 a year.  That is renting a 10,000 kWh storage system (the
> grid).  Or about 100 kWh per dollar.  Compare that with the 0.01 kWh per
> dollar for batteries.
>
> A 10,000 times better deal if there ever was one.
>
> Bob, WB4APR
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
> happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
>
> *Dalai Lama*
>
>
>
> Tell me what it is you plan to do
>
> With your one wild and precious life?
>
> Mary Oliver, "The summer day."
>
>
>
> To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
>
> *Thomas A. Edison
> <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>*
>
>
>
> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
>
> *Warren Buffet*
>
>
>
> Michael E. Ross
>
> (919) 550-2430 Land
>
> (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google
> Phone
>
> (919) 631-1451 Cell
> (919) 513-0418 Desk
>
> [email protected]
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>
>


-- 
Put this question to yourself: should I use everyone else to attain
happiness, or should I help others gain happiness?
*Dalai Lama *

Tell me what it is you plan to do
With your one wild and precious life?
Mary Oliver, "The summer day."

To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk.
Thomas A. Edison
<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html>

A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought.
*Warren Buffet*

Michael E. Ross
(919) 550-2430 Land
(919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone
(919) 631-1451 Cell
(919) 513-0418 Desk

[email protected]
<[email protected]>
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