I've said that. It's negligible and will not go to zero or not for 100 years so practically this won't be an issue. However, launching something into space is a different matter
Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 20, 2015, at 3:36 AM, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> > wrote: > > Paul, > > The Third header in the article reads: > "Self-Discharge Phenomena in Lithium-ion batteries" > > Here is another article modeling the self-discharge as well as the capacity > loss of Li-Ion batteries: > http://www.juliandehoog.com/publications/2013_TENCON_ModelingSelfDischarge.pdf > > Just to clarify, here an important quote from it: > "Cells have been shown to lose a certain amount of charge > during storage through so-called leakage currents of two > different kinds [4]. The first type of leakage current occurs due > to reversible lithium-consuming reactions in the electrolyte, > which reduces the stored charge but not the capacity of the > cell. The second type of leakage current occurs due to > irreversible lithium-consuming reactions in the electrodes, > which reduces not only the stored charge but also the capacity > of the cell." > > Cor van de Water > Chief Scientist > Proxim Wireless > > office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water > XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info > www.proxim.com > > > This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and > proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this > message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized > use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is > prohibited. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Paul Dove via EV > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 9:11 PM > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery) > > Did actually read it? > > That paper is about capacity loss not voltage drop over time. > > Sent from my iPad > >> On Jun 19, 2015, at 7:58 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> >> wrote: >> >> David, >> >> Here is a paper describing the chemical and physical mechanisms inside >> a Li-Ion cell that cause self-discharge. Happy reading! >> http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/WebSite/MSA-calendar.pdf >> >> Regards, >> >> Cor van de Water >> Chief Scientist >> Proxim Wireless >> >> office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water >> XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info >> www.proxim.com >> >> >> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and >> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received >> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any >> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this >> message is prohibited. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of David Nelson >> via EV >> Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM >> To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery) >> >> Bill, >> >> I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they work >> and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical self-discharge >> mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the lack of a charge >> shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however. >> >> One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle >> mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, >> however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based >> Rechargeable Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, >> Vol. 104, No. 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004. >> >> While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, >> "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism." >> This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true. >> Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a lot >> of searching of the scientific literature and came to the same conclusion. >> It was not just something they made up to support their anti-BMS position. >> >> If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism is >> please share it. >> >>> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> >>> wrote: >>> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the >>> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from. >>> >>> All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. >>> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need a >>> BMS. >>> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to >>> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply >>> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.) >>> >>> I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from >>> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from. >>> >>> Bill D. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >>> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> >> >> >> -- >> David D. Nelson >> http://evalbum.com/1328 >> http://www.levforum.com >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
