Right the paper is about some of the failure modes of Li ion cells. How they degrade in ability to take charge, not whether the negative electrode spontaneously de-lithiates which is another way of saying self discharge.
I am fine with - if you run the cells improperly the negative electrode SEI grows and gets clogged by contaminants. Contaminants come from the reactive nature of the positive electrode when it is delithiated, and there is lots of study in electrochemistry about that. Then those reactions take place the electrolyte is depleted. Etc., etc. Still no self discharge. On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 12:11 AM, Paul Dove via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > Did actually read it? > > That paper is about capacity loss not voltage drop over time. > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Jun 19, 2015, at 7:58 PM, Cor van de Water via EV <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > David, > > > > Here is a paper describing the chemical and physical mechanisms inside a > Li-Ion cell > > that cause self-discharge. Happy reading! > > http://www.che.sc.edu/faculty/popov/drbnp/WebSite/MSA-calendar.pdf > > > > Regards, > > > > Cor van de Water > > Chief Scientist > > Proxim Wireless > > > > office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water > > XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info > > www.proxim.com > > > > > > This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and > proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received > this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any > unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this > message is prohibited. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: EV [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of David Nelson > via EV > > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 4:37 PM > > To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List > > Subject: Re: [EVDL] "Zero self-discharge" (was: Bicycle battery) > > > > Bill, > > > > I have dug through many scientific papers on Li batteries and how they > work and I haven't been able to find anything about a theoretical > self-discharge mechanism. I have found some explicitly talking about the > lack of a charge shuttle mechanism like in lead-acid batteries, however. > > > > One paper I read has a section devoted to figuring out a charge shuttle > mechanism to add to a Li cell. It isn't a paper for the faint of heart, > however. It is "Nonaqueous Liquid Electrolytes for Lithium-Based > Rechargeable Batteries" by Kang Xu published in the Chemical Review, 2004, > Vol. 104, No. 10, pp. 4303-4417 and published on the web 09/16/2004. > > > > While I'm sure I don't get it 100% of the time I try to make sure I say, > "LiFePO4 cells have no theoretical self discharge mechanism." > > This, according to all I have been able to find on the cells, is true. > > Also, the most ardent anti-BMS people I have found have in fact done a > lot of searching of the scientific literature and came to the same > conclusion. It was not just something they made up to support their > anti-BMS position. > > > > If you have other literature showing what the self-discharge mechanism > is please share it. > > > >> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Bill Dube via EV <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> This "zero self-discharge" myth seems to be a common thread with the > >> "anti-BMS" crowd. I don't know where this misinformation comes from. > >> > >> All cells have self-discharge. It is just a matter of degree. > >> Also, the self-discharge varies from cell to cell. That's why you need > a BMS. > >> These are well-documented facts for all those that care to > >> investigate, either through the scientific literature or by simply > >> systematically testing cells for themselves (as Lee Hart has done.) > >> > >> I strongly suspect the "zero self-discharge" myth comes from > >> the same unscientific source that the anti-BMS myth has sprung from. > >> > >> Bill D. > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > >> For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA > >> (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > > > > > -- > > David D. Nelson > > http://evalbum.com/1328 > > http://www.levforum.com > > _______________________________________________ > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > > _______________________________________________ > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -- To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison <http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> A public-opinion poll is no substitute for thought. *Warren Buffet* Michael E. Ross (919) 585-6737 Land (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell [email protected] <[email protected]> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20150620/e810300a/attachment.htm> _______________________________________________ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
