The elephant in the room AMEN! It makes no sense to pursue Hydrogen simply due to its HUGE inefficiency. The only thing that drives Hydrogen is GREED.
The greedy goal is to make drivers dependent on something they must buy from BIG-HYDROGEN (was BIG OIL). - Bob On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:16 PM Peri Hartman via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > > Mark, let me expound on this a bit. First, you have provided some facts > and I thank you. But you are ignoring the elephant in the room, namely > the inefficiency of producing hydrogen. > > Let me put it this way. If you have a 1GW solar farm, should you use > that electricity to power homes and battery EVs or waste 50% of it to > produce H2, meanwhile powering those homes from coal- or natural > gas-generated electricty ? > > Or, let me put it another way. On a small scale, subsidies (whether from > government or from a manufacturer, e.g. Toyota) are fine and an > excellent way to promote and test new technology. However, in large > scale, those subsidies must mostly go away or taxpayers will revolt. In > the case of fuel cell EVs, if many people were to already own one, the > incentive to produce H2 from natural gas would be overwhelming. (There > might not be a subsidy on the H2 itself but, clearly, there are > subsidies for the cars and the 3 years of free fuel.) > > Let me put it a third way. If solar panels were so cheap that building > out solar farms for the sole purpose of producing H2 were feasible, why > isn't it also feasible to build out solar farms to replace natural gas > and coal generation of electricity ? It's happening, but at a > significant cost investment. > > ---------- > > Here's a few more details on the cost of H2 in california. > > According to wikipedia > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy > a fuel cell can deliver about 33 kWh per kg of H2. > > From an earlier post, "the average price of hydrogen in California is > $16.51 per kg." That means electricity from the fuel cell costs $0.50 / > kWh. Maybe that's not too bad, but it's still about 2.5 times the cost > of electricity on the grid in California. > > Further, that reference > https://cafcp.org/content/cost-refill > doesn't say the source of the "average" hydrogen - solar with hydrolysis > or natural gas with steam ? But, I found that California law mandates > that 40% of H2 for fuel cell EVs be produced from renewables, published > recently: > https://www.sierranevadaally.org/2021/05/05/hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-are-building-momentum-in-california/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20consulting%20firm%20Wood%20Mackenzie%2C%20almost%20all%20hydrogen,hydrocarbon%20source%20material%20and%20energy > > What is the cost per kWh for the 40% ? That is the only way to > understand the current true cost of kWh / kg of H2. $16.51 per kg is a > irrelevant number since it is including nonrenewables. > > --------- > > Mark, in order for you to gain credibility from me on this topic, you > need to address this issue. I'll readily accept that the cost of fuel > cells will come down and that, maybe, the cost of fueling stations can > come down when done at large scale. But there's nothing that I'm aware > of that will significantly bring down the cost of generating H2. Long > term, that's the crucial element from a customer point of view and, if > electricity from H2 is significantly more expensive than electricity > from a battery, it will not gain public acceptance for large scale > usage. > > Peri > > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >> > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Alan Brinkman via EV" <[email protected]> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]> > Cc: "Alan Brinkman" <[email protected]> > Sent: 25-Aug-21 13:06:48 > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen vs Battery Power > > >Hello EVDL, > > > >The draw of Hydrogen is that using it produces H2O, water. What a great > >exhaust product. But the energy to separate Hydrogen out of H2O to produce > >it is too great. It is better to use that energy to charge batteries and > >drive an EV. > >If you want to spend money on researching how to produce Hydrogen using > >much less energy, that is a good idea. A catalyst or unique process would > >be good. > >Just switching from petroleum fuels to Hydrogen at the current time is not > >a great benefit. EV's are the tool. > > > >Make it a great day! > >Alan > > > >On Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 10:48 AM Willie via EV <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > >> On 8/25/21 11:10 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote: > >> >>> ...by Electrify America, they said that they charge 31ยข/kWh. > >> > I have seen rates as low as 3 cents per kW > >> > for EV charging off-peak for those that sign up for a TOU plan > >> > (includes much higher peak rates) > >> > > >> > "Hydrogen Fool cell" is a reasonable moniker. > >> > > >> > Wont this thread ever die? > >> > >> ->I<- think it is time for it to die. > >> > >> Much discussion back and forth. Little logic. Little promise for the > >> future. Not a single example of FCEV advantage over BEV. I say at risk > >> of appearing to gang up on Mark. Even though I have resisted giving > >> that appearance. > >> > >> > OOps, forgot. My home solar makes the EV charging free... > >> > (Well, no, with Grid tie it costs me 14 cents per kWh > >> > because that is what each kW is worth that I push back > >> > into the grid so using it to charge an EV is 14cents/kWh lost). > >> > >> Your utility seems to be giving you a GREAT deal. Though it makes your > >> charging appear more expensive than with a lesser deal. I buy at > >> $.10/kwh and sell at $.06/kwh which makes my charging $.06. OTOH, my > >> utility is willing to buy (pay cash) for as much as I can manage to > >> produce. Even at only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range > >> of 6-8 years. > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Address messages to [email protected] > >> No other addresses in TO and CC fields > >> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >> ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > >> LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > >> > >-------------- next part -------------- > >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > >URL: > ><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20210825/1fb485a3/attachment.html> > >_______________________________________________ > >Address messages to [email protected] > >No other addresses in TO and CC fields > >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > >ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > >LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org > > _______________________________________________ > Address messages to [email protected] > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub > ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ > LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org _______________________________________________ Address messages to [email protected] No other addresses in TO and CC fields UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub ARCHIVE: http://www.evdl.org/archive/ LIST INFO: http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
