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Today's Topics:
1. Nope, was Re: Another Lithium source ? ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
2. Roll-down test to determine rolling and aero coefficients
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
3. Re: 60ah NiMH (Dmitri)
4. Re: Help needed with my Geo Metro (Michael Barkley)
5. Re: You Tube Battery revival guy. (Jeff Shanab)
6. Re: Better Emergency Brake (Jeff Shanab)
7. Re: Help needed with my Geo Metro (Jeff Shanab)
8. Re: Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a
Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford. (Jeff Shanab)
9. Re: Better Emergency Brake (Roland Wiench)
10. Source for Batteries (Lloyd Wayne Reece)
11. Re: Nope, was Re: Another Lithium source ? (Marty Hewes)
12. Re: Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a
Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford. (Marty Hewes)
13. Re: Tampa schools debut new plug-in hybrid buses (Jim Davis)
14. Re: Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a
Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford. (Marty Hewes)
15. Re: Help needed with my Geo Metro (Lee Hart)
16. Re: Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a
Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford. (Lee Hart)
17. Re: Nope, was Re: Another Lithium source ? (Dan Frederiksen)
18. Re: Nope, was Re: Another Lithium source ? (Marty Hewes)
19. TS chemistry and business practices (Victor Tikhonov)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 23:48:54 -0700
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [EVDL] Nope, was Re: Another Lithium source ?
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
<<<< I searched the archive for Electrovaya but found nothing
noone ever heard of them?
http://www.electrovaya.com/innovation/zev_tech.html#EV
I heard about them in october last year. I think I contacted them but
either it was too early or they didn't respond
They claim rather impressive energy densities iirc. something like
250Wh/kg and 400Wh/L
Dan >>>>
Really old news needs a search in an old archives:
http://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=Electrovaya%20&[EMAIL PROTECTED] -
There's no search engine in the Crest archives, here's an entry from 2001:
http://www.crest.org/discussion/ev/200111/msg00550.html
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 13:32:12 +0300
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [EVDL] Roll-down test to determine rolling and aero
coefficients
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Cc: Hanan Levy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Windows-1255
Hi All
I finally got around to working out the math for the roll-down test.
This is where you find the aero and rolling drag coefficients from rolldown
times on a flat straight road with no traffic.
If you don?t want the math you can skip to the part where the step-by-step is
laid out.
The acceleration from rolling and aero drag is reputedly
Acceleration = -Crr g ? (rho Cd A / 2m) v^2
To clean it up I call the first term a and the second b:
Acceleration = -a - b v^2
This diff equation is solved to give
v_start = sqrt(a/b) Atan(sqrt(ab) t)
where v_start is your starting speed and t is the time taken for roll-down.
We?d like to do two tests and then have two points on a curve from which a and b
could be found.
But the equation cant be solved cleanly, (anyone who wants to give it a crack
pls let me know if you get somewhere)
so we can break this into two parts, a slow test for finding ?a? and a fast one
where both a and b are in play.
>From the range of expected values of a and b (a between 0.06m/s^2 to 0.2m/s^2,
and b between 0.0024/m and 0.00012/m)
I find that the linear parts of the Atan curves are below about 10-15km/hr for
cars and trucks (bikes maybe later).
So a possible procedure is:
Step 1 ? find a
Do a few tests at different low speeds (below 10-15km/hr).
Drive at a steady low speed, and start timing the moment you take your foot off
the electrons.
Stop timing as soon as you come to a stop.
v_start is your starting speed and t is the time it took to roll to a stop.
Take the ratio v_start / t ; this is your value of a
(remember a is my abbreviation for Crr g)
These values should come out the same each time you do the low-speed test, if
you are starting slow enough.
If you don?t trust your speedometer you can do this more accurately by measuring
roll-down distance d and time t, with
Crr g = 2d/t^2 (still at low speeds).
Step 2 ? find b
Now do a test with high starting speed (where wind resistance is important, e.g.
70km/hr or more).
We have to solve v_start = sqrt(a/b) Atan(sqrt(ab) t) for the unknown b, which
one can do with a calculator and iteration (or excel/mathematica/matlab),
or by using some graphs I put up at
http://physics.technion.ac.il/~rutman/car/Roll-down%20test.pdf
or by using the following tables constructed for the case of starting
velocity=70km/hr (44 mph).
If you want to use the tables you have to start from 44mph.
Use the table with the closest value of a (which you found in the first step).
a= 0.06
Time= 270. b=0.00011
Time= 254. b=0.00016
Time= 238. b=0.00022
Time= 222. b=0.00030
Time= 206. b=0.00040
Time= 190. b=0.00053
Time= 174. b=0.00070
Time= 158. b=0.00093
Time= 142. b=0.00124
Time= 126. b=0.00170
Time= 110. b=0.00239
a= 0.08
Time= 200. b=0.00016
Time= 189.5 b=0.00022
Time= 179. b=0.00029
Time= 168.5 b=0.00038
Time= 158. b=0.00049
Time= 147.5 b=0.00062
Time= 137. b=0.00080
Time= 126.5 b=0.00102
Time= 116. b=0.00131
Time= 105.5 b=0.00170
Time= 95. b=0.00224
a= 0.1
Time= 170. b=0.00013
Time= 161. b=0.00019
Time= 152. b=0.00027
Time= 143. b=0.00037
Time= 134. b=0.00049
Time= 125. b=0.00064
Time= 116. b=0.00083
Time= 107. b=0.00108
Time= 98. b=0.00140
Time= 89. b=0.00184
Time= 80. b=0.00245
a= 0.13
Time= 130. b=0.00017
Time= 124. b=0.00025
Time= 118. b=0.00033
Time= 112. b=0.00044
Time= 106. b=0.00056
Time= 100. b=0.00071
Time= 94. b=0.00090
Time= 88. b=0.00113
Time= 82. b=0.00141
Time= 76. b=0.00178
Time= 70. b=0.00225
a= 0.16
Time= 110. b=0.00014
Time= 105. b=0.00022
Time= 100. b=0.00032
Time= 95. b=0.00043
Time= 90. b=0.00057
Time= 85. b=0.00073
Time= 80. b=0.00093
Time= 75. b=0.00118
Time= 70. b=0.00149
Time= 65. b=0.00188
Time= 60. b=0.00238
a= 0.18
Time= 100. b=0.00012
Time= 95.5 b=0.00020
Time= 91. b=0.00030
Time= 86.5 b=0.00042
Time= 82. b=0.00057
Time= 77.5 b=0.00074
Time= 73. b=0.00095
Time= 68.5 b=0.00120
Time= 64. b=0.00152
Time= 59.5 b=0.00193
Time= 55. b=0.00245
a= 0.2
Time= 90. b=0.00013
Time= 86. b=0.00022
Time= 82. b=0.00033
Time= 78. b=0.00046
Time= 74. b=0.00062
Time= 70. b=0.00081
Time= 66. b=0.00103
Time= 62. b=0.00131
Time= 58. b=0.00166
Time= 54. b=0.00209
Time= 50. b=0.00264
You now have your drag and aero coefficients a and b, where
a=Crr g and b=rho Cd A / 2m. rho is the density of air, 1.2kg/m^3 at sea
level, A is vehicle projected frontal area,
m mass, g gravitational acceleration, 9.8m/s^2 at sea level.
The precision of a and b here will be something like the precision of your
measurements but I haven?t worked out the relation, maybe later.
Anyone with the heart to check the maths please do so, there may be mistakes in
here.
Anyone who actually does the tests let me know how they worked out, what your
values of a and b were.
More info at http://physics.technion.ac.il/~rutman/car/Roll-down%20test.pdf
-jeremy rutman
Jeremy Rutman
Technion Physics Dep't.
Haifa 32000 Israel
phone 972 4 8293669
fax 972 4 8295755
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 08:49:44 -0400
From: "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 60ah NiMH
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Notice, "for starting diesel engines." Toyota Prius cells aren't very high
in wh/kg either.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Timothy Balcer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 60ah NiMH
> On 8/11/07, Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> good find but doing the math on the weight it's 28Wh/kg. there are lead
>> acids outthere at over 50Wh/kg and I believe the typical LA is around
>> 35Wh/kg
>> they would have to be very cheap and or live very long to be of interest
>> I'm afraid. heavier than lead acid is bad :)
>>
>> Dan
>
> ...wow. I didn't notice that. That's odd, to say the least.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 06:00:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Help needed with my Geo Metro
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I haven't figured out anyway to really downshift with
the direct drive manual transmission either. I just
take it out of gear, and coast as much as possible,
and apply brakes gingerly. My EV isn't setup for any
REGEN, so I hope that taking it out of gear when
slowing down, and coasting to a stop is easier on the
controller, motor, and brakes.
--- mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, it works
>
> The problem is that these free old UPS batteries are
> weak. I drove 6 miles.
>
> I'm a little concerned about downshifting. It didn't
> seem it wanted to do it.
>
> What do you do when slowing down?
>
> thanks
> --- Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I bet that was an experience, that you'd not want
> to
> > do again for sure (was it an EV?). Thanks for
> that
> > heads up, I'll go back and install rubber bumpers
> on
> > the top portion of the car, where the springs sit,
> > so
> > the springs are restricted from side to side
> > movement.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > DO NOT USED HELPER SPRINGS.
> > > A friend of mind used them to fix bad springs
> > which
> > > where just worn out to get by on the Cheap. He
> was
> > > driving down the freeway and hit a rough spot
> and
> > > the
> > > helper springs Shot out side-ways and blew out
> > both
> > > rear tires. Car was not a pretty site after
> wards.
> >
> > >
> > > There has been a several discussion of this that
> > you
> > > need to order custom wound springs from a
> > specialty
> > > shop. I discovered going to a suspension shop
> for
> > > hot
> > > rods that they will measure your car up for
> custom
> > > springs and get them ordered up for you. a 4x4
> > > custom
> > > shop might be able to help you as well.
> > >
> > > --- mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > not sure with they'll fit in the Geo.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > They don't replace the original springs,
> just
> > > add
> > > > > them
> > > > > to the axle just beind the others, as close
> to
> > > the
> > > > > wheel you can. I believe a gentleman did
> post
> > a
> > > > > website earlier in the list of a company
> that
> > > > sells
> > > > > replacement coil springs to your weight
> > > > > specification.
> > > > > I believe these addon springs I used are
> less
> > > > > expensive though.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm working on a tight no money budget with
> my
> > > > > project, so I've had to keep cost to a
> > minimum.
> > > > > Still
> > > > > hoping someday, I'll walk outside, and find
> > that
> > > a
> > > > > 1K
> > > > > zilla happened to be left on my doorstep to
> be
> > > > > adopted
> > > > > by my EV....... LOL
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Do these replace the rear springs I have?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Or is these an additional set?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2005887/c-10101/Nty-1/p-2005887/Ntx-mode+matchallpartial/N-10101/tf-Browse/s-10101/Ntk-AllTextSearchGroup?Ntt=helper+springs
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Here's a link to the coil helper springs
> > at
> > > > > > > JCWhitney:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.jcwhitney.com/wcsstore/jcwhitney/images/imagecache/G_15887G_CL_1.jpg
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hopefully the link will work.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- Michael Barkley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mike, I purchased from JCWhitney a set
> > of
> > > > > helper
> > > > > > > > springs that bolt to the rear axle of
> a
> > > > front
> > > > > > > wheel
> > > > > > > > drive vehicle. They have them rated
> > from
> > > > > > 1000lbs
> > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > 2000lbs. I purchased the 2000lbs
> > version
> > > > and
> > > > > so
> > > > > > > far
> > > > > > > > so good. I've got 13 golf cart
> > batteries
> > > in
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > > back
> > > > > > > > of the Eclipse.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you aren't getting enough torque
> with
> > > the
> > > > > > > 24volt
> > > > > > > > field pack, you might try 36vdc. I
> seem
> > > to
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > > plenty of torque at 24vdc, but am
> > running
> > > a
> > > > > > 78vdc
> > > > > > > > pack
> > > > > > > > for the armature.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > HELLO
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I'm trying to duplicate what Michael
> > did
> > > > > here:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://www.texomaev.com-a.googlepages.com/mitsubishieclipseconversion
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Using the G-29 Aircraft Generator,
> and
> > > no
> > > > > > > > > flywheel...a
> > > > > > > > > direct connection to the
> transmission.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I have a 1204 upgraded controller
> from
>
=== message truncated ===
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 06:09:08 -0700
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] You Tube Battery revival guy.
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Please remember that it is popular for the tubular lead acid and some
other standby batteries to have a special deep well below the plates and
extra plate material and are often rated for 15 to 25 years of service
(at a trade off of about 1/2 the wh/kg. )
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 06:18:08 -0700
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Maybe we are going about this wrong. Semi truck trailers have a
solution. Air brakes.
These are spring applied air released emergency brakes for the trailers
so that when disconnected the brakes are applied.
Perhaps a small vacuum operated version for an EV, you just release the
remaining vacuum when you park (probably would need a really good vacuum
pump, but it would also keep you from driving without vacuum for the
power brakes. :-)
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 06:19:54 -0700
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Help needed with my Geo Metro
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Maybe a trip to the wrecking yard would suffice.
For example. I think the springs off of a jeep are the same diameter as
the rear springs on the 300zx, but stiffer and longer.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 06:27:30 -0700
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a
Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Probably not. the torque converter is for the low statring torque of the
ICE. It is the reving motor slipping clutch equivilent of a human being.
But in this case we were talking about a lightweight vehicle with a
single 9" dc motor, My suggestion was to abuse a torque converter as a CVT.
They are about 4:1 gear ratio as the rpm's pass thru 500 and become
close to 1:! by 3000 rpm at which point you could lock it in. We would
almost want a "low stall" unit.
The other issue with this device is that the stock ones expect the oil
to be cooled externally.
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 07:49:55 -0600
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
That's a good ideal. I will ask my master mechanical who also works on
semi-trucks to how a air brake can be modified to brake using vacuum. Can
be done, because I have converted many vacuum devices to work on pressure.
The problem would be to find one small enough to fit under a EV. These
units are large and uses a large pressure tank which you would have to use a
large vacuum canister for a vacuum system. You will have to use a large
diesel truck type of vacuum pump they use for some transmissions, which I
already run in my EV. Also you have to have a drain system to drain out
the water that builds up in these unit.
When its very cold, truckers have to check this braking systems every hour,
even if the lines are triple insulated.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 7:18 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Better Emergency Brake
> Maybe we are going about this wrong. Semi truck trailers have a
> solution. Air brakes.
> These are spring applied air released emergency brakes for the trailers
> so that when disconnected the brakes are applied.
>
> Perhaps a small vacuum operated version for an EV, you just release the
> remaining vacuum when you park (probably would need a really good vacuum
> pump, but it would also keep you from driving without vacuum for the
> power brakes. :-)
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2007 14:50:23 -0700
From: Lloyd Wayne Reece <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Source for Batteries
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Does anyone have a souce for US 125 Batterys? I live in Southern Nevada
and I am going to need 2 to 4 of them for my Lectra Centari
Lloyd
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:16:11 -0500
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nope, was Re: Another Lithium source ?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Something you want to keep in mind looking through Global sources or even
going to trade fairs, often they are advertising a concept just to do market
research. They may not even have a working prototype. They come up with an
idea, maybe a dummy model, pull some specs out of thin air, and pretend it
will be available shortly. If the specs seem improbable, it's usually
because the product doesn't even exist. If some huge company starts talking
contracts, then they develop the product, or try at least. The finished
product will often show up 6 months later and not meet the original pipe
dream specs. If a buyer comes along that wants to purchase a quantity too
small to fund the development, you won't hear back from them and it never
happens.
You'd be surprised how many traders are out there with no product trying to
land a contract with Walmart or GM, figuring they'll find a supplier in
Mainland China after they bag a customer large enough to make them rich.
Taiwan and Hong Kong are full of these guys, and they've got the act down
pretty well. Many of them figure they'll get one shot at it, and they
couldn't care less if the product they deliver is any good. We've all seen
the results. Buying a product without a QC guy of your own over there (one
that's immune to payoffs) is always a crap shoot. I'm afraid standing
behind a product is a somewhat foreign concept over there. Often, once the
money changes hands, it's your problem. Afterall, up until recently, there
was no free market in China. The Chinese got whatever the government
produced, or nothing. Choice and customers demanding quality are not
concepts ingrained in their society. We saw the same problem with crap
coming out of the ex USSR when the wall came down. A Russian friend of
mine, who had worked in factories over there, told me that the good workers
built military hardware, the drunks and losers were put to work making
consumer goods, and very little effort was put into QC on that stuff. The
govermnent was mostly just trying to keep them busy.
Many companies that buy from China have a rep over there to watch production
and do quality control before paying for anything. Jukka is in exactly the
right position to do us a lot of good, and from previous experience in an
unrelated joint development project, I have great respect for the Finnish
work ethic and values. How else do you explain Nokia kicking Motorola's
butt :). The previous experience with ThunderSky was not unusual for a
shipment of goods going out without a representative of the customer on
premises doing QC.
For those of you that have worked in development, some of these asians do it
like our marketing guys do it, only with a little more BS, a little less
reality, and very short term goals and objectives.
Marty
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:26:42 -0500
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a
Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
That's exactly what I'm building, an EV with a Chevy Turbo 350 with a TCI
coupler where the converter would be, and Roland is ahead of me on this.
The biggest problems seem to be the delay in building pressure when the
motor spins up followed by sudden engagement, and getting the shift points
right. If the delay problem is too obnoxious, I'll run an external pump,
probably share it with the steering. If the shift point problem is too
obnoxious, manual shift valve bodies are available for the TH350. It's all
been done before, there is some information if you poke around the archives.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Jackson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Cc: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2007 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a
Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.
> Does an EV with an automatic transmission even need a torque converter?
> Seems to me that a person would only have to select drive, apply the
> throttle, line pressure would build (assuming this is not a crummy
> chrysler transmission :-P ) and away you go. I guess the motor would need
> some sort of a rev limiter if it were coupled to a transmission in such a
> way. Maybe a better way to use an automatic would be to have an external
> fluid pump so that line pressure was maintained at all times regardless of
> whether or not the main EV motor was running.
>
> Brian
>
>
> ---- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> =============
> By torque converter, i meant the hydraulic fluid coupling used on cars.
> I have never heard of anyone calling a salsbary drive a torque
> converter, but I guess all transmissions of any type are just that.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 08:34:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Davis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tampa schools debut new plug-in hybrid buses
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
--- Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 175 miles range!?!?!?!! In a school bus??? Is this possible with PbA
> considering school buses aren't very aerodynamic?
It's possible, but not feasible. Aerodynamics would be irrelevant. An
all-electric schoolbus becomes feasible when you imagine the driving
pattern (lots of slow starts and stops, seldom driven faster than 35 mph),
coupled with an efficient AC system which relied heavily on regen, and a
huge lead-to-GWVR ratio (50% or better). Ultracaps would help.
The quoted range-claim of 175 miles is obviously hogwash. One wonders how
those 1994 miracle machines did not revolutionize the school bus industry
(or indeed, all subsequent efforts at similar transport), if they
performed as claimed.
> I'd be very interested in seeing some numbers about the battery pack
> Anyone converted a school bus?
No, but I own an electric bus, designed and built from the ground up as an
electric. The AVS 22-foot electric shuttle carried 5400 lbs of lead (about
a third of its curb weight, a quarter of its GWVR), and it had a proven
range of about 50 miles, top speed nearing 40 mph. I own a
later-generation hybridized version (circa 2002, reduced to 3500 lbs in
batteries, adding a Capstone microturbine-- and a fuel tank replacing a
third of the batteries), which was a redesign for more range. When this
series-hybrid was not breaking down, it was purported to approach a range
of 250 miles (relying on the microturbine for generation of charge while
still on route).
Some of these buses are still in service, in downtown Chattanooga, TN, but
every other transit authority abandoned the AVS a long time ago, and the
company went out of business. IMHO, AVS proved that you cannot just tack
an APU onto an all-electric design and get reliable range-extension.
Something to consider, for all those who dream of a range-extending
generator-trailer.
That being said, I think all-electric school buses in an urban environment
is a very good idea, especially if the 25-mile route is typical.
Certainly, that range is achievable. Myself, I live across from a school
busyard, where more than 200 diesel buses start their engines at 5 AM, and
I am certain my life is being shortened by the emissions...
Regards,
Jim
> One of the comments at the end of this article stated:
> "We made several Blue Bird buses all electric in 1994. They went 175
> miles
> on a charge and had much better performance than the gas or diesel units
> (read, do not floor it to get get going unless you want to launch
> everyone
> and everything not nailed down)and a fraction of the overall opperation
> cost
> of the ICE brethren.
> Oh, and the overall fleet average is only 25.7 miles a day.
> Doug "
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a vacation? Get great deals
to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
http://travel.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:44:50 -0500
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a
Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
I think to keep the losses down, you'd need a lockup converter, which adds
some complexity. Plus, the nature of a torque converter is to allow the ICE
to increase RPM during acceleration to where it generates torque, and to
allow the torque converter to do some torque multiplication. So you'd have
to make sure the stall speed was at an RPM where you'd still have enough
volts to keep the motor torque up. But I don't think that would be a
problem with a stall speed lower than an all out drag race convertor. I
think stock converters stall between 1800 and 2400 RPM.
You might get around the heat issue by using a torque converter from some
Vega transmissions. They used the convertor for cooling, with holes in the
bell housing. No cooler on the trans. But I think you'd still need
pressurized oil, and want a lock up feature for efficiency and heat
reduction. And you still have no reverse or park.
Oh, but would there be a way to cruise at highway speeds at 3000 RPM for
efficiency, and upshift to drop the RPM into the motor power band to pass?
Actually, GM used a switchable stall speed converter on some Turbo 400's in
the sixties. I put one in my 68 Camaro back in the day. It was pretty
trick. But again, it takes pressure to switch it.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a
Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.
> Probably not. the torque converter is for the low statring torque of the
> ICE. It is the reving motor slipping clutch equivilent of a human being.
>
> But in this case we were talking about a lightweight vehicle with a
> single 9" dc motor, My suggestion was to abuse a torque converter as a
> CVT.
> They are about 4:1 gear ratio as the rpm's pass thru 500 and become
> close to 1:! by 3000 rpm at which point you could lock it in. We would
> almost want a "low stall" unit.
>
> The other issue with this device is that the stock ones expect the oil
> to be cooled externally.
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:36:28 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Help needed with my Geo Metro
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Michael Barkley wrote:
> I haven't figured out anyway to really downshift with
> the direct drive manual transmission either. I just
> take it out of gear, and coast as much as possible,
> and apply brakes gingerly.
To downshift my clutchless EVs, I'd take my foot off the accelerator so
it's coasting, shift into neutral and then into the lower gear. The
transmission's synchronizers pulled the motor speed down to match. If
there was no need to hurry, a shift took a couple seconds. If I wanted
to do it more quickly, I pushed harder on the gearshift lever so the
synchronizers pulled the speeds together faster.
This works well with some transmissions, poorly with others.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 10:39:46 -0500
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Basic drivetrain questions, was Re: Looking for a
Conversion Kit for a 1929 Ford.
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> Probably not. the torque converter is for the low statring torque of the
> ICE. It is the reving motor slipping clutch equivilent of a human being.
>
> But in this case we were talking about a lightweight vehicle with a
> single 9" dc motor, My suggestion was to abuse a torque converter as a CVT.
> They are about 4:1 gear ratio as the rpm's pass thru 500 and become
> close to 1:! by 3000 rpm at which point you could lock it in. We would
> almost want a "low stall" unit.
>
> The other issue with this device is that the stock ones expect the oil
> to be cooled externally.
Some, but not all have external oil coolers. The old Chevy Corvair
Powerglide automatic had cooling fins on the torque converter, and no
oil cooler. This transmission was also unique in that the torque
converter was mounted completely separately from the transmission itself.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 18:19:49 +0200
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nope, was Re: Another Lithium source ?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Electrovaya doesn't appear to be chinese though and I didn't find them
on global sources. they seem to have products and even claim their
batteries are used in the nasa EVA space suits. but sell their
products... why would they
Dan
Marty Hewes wrote:
> Something you want to keep in mind looking through Global sources or even
> going to trade fairs, often they are advertising a concept just to do market
> research. They may not even have a working prototype. They come up with an
> idea, maybe a dummy model, pull some specs out of thin air, and pretend it
> will be available shortly. If the specs seem improbable, it's usually
> because the product doesn't even exist. If some huge company starts talking
> contracts, then they develop the product, or try at least. The finished
> product will often show up 6 months later and not meet the original pipe
> dream specs. If a buyer comes along that wants to purchase a quantity too
> small to fund the development, you won't hear back from them and it never
> happens.
>
> You'd be surprised how many traders are out there with no product trying to
> land a contract with Walmart or GM, figuring they'll find a supplier in
> Mainland China after they bag a customer large enough to make them rich.
> Taiwan and Hong Kong are full of these guys, and they've got the act down
> pretty well. Many of them figure they'll get one shot at it, and they
> couldn't care less if the product they deliver is any good. We've all seen
> the results. Buying a product without a QC guy of your own over there (one
> that's immune to payoffs) is always a crap shoot. I'm afraid standing
> behind a product is a somewhat foreign concept over there. Often, once the
> money changes hands, it's your problem. Afterall, up until recently, there
> was no free market in China. The Chinese got whatever the government
> produced, or nothing. Choice and customers demanding quality are not
> concepts ingrained in their society. We saw the same problem with crap
> coming out of the ex USSR when the wall came down. A Russian friend of
> mine, who had worked in factories over there, told me that the good workers
> built military hardware, the drunks and losers were put to work making
> consumer goods, and very little effort was put into QC on that stuff. The
> govermnent was mostly just trying to keep them busy.
>
> Many companies that buy from China have a rep over there to watch production
> and do quality control before paying for anything. Jukka is in exactly the
> right position to do us a lot of good, and from previous experience in an
> unrelated joint development project, I have great respect for the Finnish
> work ethic and values. How else do you explain Nokia kicking Motorola's
> butt :). The previous experience with ThunderSky was not unusual for a
> shipment of goods going out without a representative of the customer on
> premises doing QC.
>
> For those of you that have worked in development, some of these asians do it
> like our marketing guys do it, only with a little more BS, a little less
> reality, and very short term goals and objectives.
>
> Marty
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 12:54:56 -0500
From: "Marty Hewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nope, was Re: Another Lithium source ?
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Yeah, I was just speaking in general terms. Just because you find something
on the net doesn't mean it really exists. And if it does exist, that
doesn't mean they are anxious to deal with a market like ours where most
vehicles are a one off (so requirements vary) and sales are relatively low.
I import clocks 5,000 at a time, and most of the Global Sources advertisers
still don't respond to my Emails. They are dreaming about landing an
exclusive with Walmart.
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Nope, was Re: Another Lithium source ?
> Electrovaya doesn't appear to be chinese though and I didn't find them
> on global sources. they seem to have products and even claim their
> batteries are used in the nasa EVA space suits. but sell their
> products... why would they
>
> Dan
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2007 11:46:51 -0700
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] TS chemistry and business practices
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Jukka J?rvinen wrote:
> I have no problem to talk about the TS issues. I know how they do things
> and it is far from western standards.
>
> I've rolled the full case about the old cells in front of Winston. I
> feel a bit troubled how he reacted on the issue. The amount of cells
> that need changing is muuuch greater that anyone of us knows. I believe.
That makes no difference really. Amount of money they basically
stole is also much greater than anyone knows about, but that doesn't
bother Winston and Co.
Makes no difference if the staff, policies or whatever have changed
since 2003 when that happened. Bottom line - I'm (and 10 other people)
out of money and out of product we paid for. That fact didn't change.
Everything else is cheap talk, true or false.
> This is the reason I have always STRONGLY adviced NOT to buy cells
> directly from them. I test all my cells in China before shipping. If any
> bad I change it.
Perhaps I wasn't clear. If I buy TS sells from you and you in turn
buy them from TS for me, my money ultimately go to TS anyway. And I
already paid them, and they know it.
So I should not buy TS product at all (and discourage others)
(directly or through Finnish distributor, makes no difference)
at least until one of 2 things happen:
a) - They return my money (and I can return their junk cells,
of course at their expense if they want)
b) - They fill *MY* trunk with 96 working cells *I* paid for.
It is of course your choice how to deal with TS, but if
you don't pressure and make them suffer, you encourage them
to keep doing what they did. I sincerely wish your business to
prosper, but if your sales decline because fewer people buy
their product (through you) - you suffer through no fault of
your own. Your own business practices are perfectly fine, but
it's not about you now, it's about TS and us (me in this case).
You weren't even involved in the initial group purchase.
Your only "fault" (for the lack of better word) is
your choice to still establish business with TS as if they
fully deserve it as good responsible supplier *by customer's
standards* (which they are not).
I don't want to impair your business, but I want to hold TS
responsible for theirs by spreading the word to get to option
a) or b) (see above) as close as possible.
Please suggest other means if you know of any.
I believe you, or any their distributor, can keep insisting
on them to rectify the situation by [partially] refusing to
deal with them so their bottom line suffers - you have much more
influence and leverage than me and others who're just TS' end
customers.
You may be very right in assessment of current "changed" TS,
but [whether we keep talking about it or quit the thread now],
the fact remains - the trunk of my EV is still empty. Rub it in
Winston's face.
Victor
p.s. A bit recomposed copy of this email is going to Winston
directly as well. Will see if it will have any effect.
------------------------------
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End of EV Digest, Vol 1, Issue 32
*********************************
