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Today's Topics:
1. Re: K2 pricing (Jukka J?rvinen)
2. Re: Water cooling pump (Metric Mind)
3. Re: K2 pricing (Dan Frederiksen)
4. Re: Toshiba SCiB batteries (Dan Frederiksen)
5. Re: Toshiba SCiB batteries correction (Dan Frederiksen)
6. Green push hits tire makers (Zeke Yewdall)
7. Re: Water cooling pump (Lee Hart)
8. Re: another one done RAH! (Bob Rice)
9. Re: another one done RAH! (Tim Humphrey)
10. Re: Green push hits tire makers (David Dymaxion)
11. Re: prestolite mlx-4002? (Jim Husted)
12. Who Killed the Electric Car (Bob Rice)
13. Re: another one done RAH! (Bob Rice)
14. Re: E-meter guts and fixing them (Imbob)
15. Re: Transistor retaining clips (Dale Ulan)
16. Re: K2 pricing (Morgan LaMoore)
17. Re: Water cooling pump (EVDL Administrator)
18. Re: Ranger Motors (Osmo S.)
19. Re: E-meter guts and fixing them ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
20. Re: Short Battery Cables Needed (ampaynz1)
21. Re: Short Battery Cables Needed (ampaynz1)
22. Re: E-meter guts and fixing them (Morgan LaMoore)
23. Juiced Up, was: Re: Online NY Times article link there today
(Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:06:58 +0200
From: Jukka J?rvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] K2 pricing
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
We are all interested in the claimed energy density and specific energy
from K2. It seems to be the best option in price-quality-specifications
-comparison.
Also they are using valid LiFePO4 from Phostec. Differs from TS in here.
Your tests are very good indicator what are the cell options. You should
ask from all possible manufacturers to ship you some cells for testing.
Put up a complete and objective site fot these results. And charge for
add space. :)
Nice work Ian.
-Jukka
p.s.- I still believe the paralled cell packs from PHET are crazy thing
to do. Same thing with all parallering of Lithium.
Ian Hooper kirjoitti:
> Well, let's work with these numbers..
>
> 1000 of the 3.2Ah EV cells gives you a ~10kWh pack, which is big
> enough for many people's needs (should give over 50km range in a
> small car).
>
> $7 each is $2.18 per amp-hour, which is 10% more than the cost of
> ThunderSky cells factory direct, not too far different, and I'm
> guessing their power would be significantly better. (That said, you
> can actually get TS quite a bit cheaper cheaper through
> everspring.net or evpower.com.au.)
>
> Anyway, they do seem like a reasonably attractive option. All we
> really need now is a way to quickly and easily connect lots of 18650s
> or 26650s into packs! I hear PHET are building nice packs with their
> 18650s now, but the extra expense is not insignificant..
>
> I've got some samples of four different LiFePO4s from K2 coming
> (should be here any day now) and will put them through the same tests
> as http://zeva.com.au/tech/LiFePO4.php to see how the compare.
>
> -Ian
>
> On 11/12/2007, at 11:41 AM, Dan Frederiksen wrote:
>
>> K2 finally responded. his spam filter had deleted the emails.
>> impressive
>>
>> 7.25$ for the 2.5Ah power cell and 7$ for the 3.2Ah EV cell in
>> volume of
>> 1000.
>> with the quote from Pete at 6.5$ for the EV cell at 3000 we have a
>> rough
>> layout of K2 pricing
>>
>> I tried to reason with him that volume pricing for low volume
>> customers
>> would get him high volume sales but it didn't register. he offered
>> several invalid reasons why punishing smaller customers price wise was
>> right. it cost them money to teach low volume customers...(as if
>> teaching was included in the cost), people would abuse the cells and
>> hate on them (he used the term Li haters, as if the hate would be less
>> if the cells are more expensive) etc.
>>
>> I tried to convey to him that EVs aren't viable at those prices but
>> nobody was home.
>> Yet another obtuse battery company for the list. blinded by greed and
>> self importance.
>>
>> Who actually buys these cells? who buys Valence's cells? the cells are
>> too big for laptops and too expensive for EVs in any volume.
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> ps. he let me know (I asked) that K2 is just a US front for a Shanghai
>> battery maker. it would be interesting if the mother company would be
>> cheaper and more reasonable. but how to find that
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> For subscription options, see
>> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 04:03:48 -0800
From: Metric Mind <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Water cooling pump
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Evan Tuer wrote:
>> Bosch automotive mag. drive water pump with BLDC motor meant for
>> the job, but unfortunately it's > $200:
>>
>> http://www.metricmind.com/water.htm
>
> I'll just add my opinion that these are excellent pumps. There are
> two on my EV which is about 8 years old and has done 62,000 miles.
> The pumps are on all the time during charging as well as driving, so
> there's a good 8 hours a day run time. They're very quiet and take
> little power. So far, so good.
I know this and everyone who has those knows as well, but it makes
no difference - people on EVDL is just wrong crowd to market them to.
Priorities are very different. If you buy and turn on something and
it just works and works and works for years, it's plain boring -
nothing to tinker with...
Also, then there is no sense of clever accomplishments, nothing
to discuss. So paying $200 for such boredom is plain silly,
there are plenty of more exciting choices. Really. Check archives.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:41:16 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] K2 pricing
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Jukka J?rvinen wrote:
> p.s.- I still believe the paralled cell packs from PHET are crazy thing
> to do. Same thing with all parallering of Lithium.
>
you mean crazy like killacycle? like GM, like SSI-racing, like...
as for the price of K2 it's just a bit too high. the EV cell with good
capacity is not a high power cell like the other. much more like
thundersky batteries, 30 sec pulse discharge rated at only 8C (28A). a
1000 cell pack of those will probably not be a high performance pack.
the too high price becomes easier to see when you compare the power cell
price of 7.25$ for 2.5Ah to the PHET pricing of 2.6$? for their half
size cell or Valence similar cell at 5$ (granted in volume of 10000)
it's juuuust above the pain threshold that makes it not stand out in the
crowd which is so frustrating. it's like they have a club where they get
a frontal lobotomy so they all price them where noone buys them. it
probably costs them 1$ to make. maybe even less.
that said, the K2 power cell is on paper even better than the A123 M1
cell. It has about the same internal resistance but significantly higher
capacity. according to the discharge chart the capacity is 2800mAh if
read the same way they do in the A123 datasheet. (A123 is 2300mAh).
that's quite a difference. 121km range compared to A123s 100km as an
example. (if nobody is lying)
if they could drop the price even to 6$ then it could become the focus
of attention and at 5$ it could completely steal A123s thunder and be an
undisputed choice.
Dan
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:00:26 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Toshiba SCiB batteries
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Morgan LaMoore wrote:
> If you run the calculations on their table, that's only 50 Wh/kg; half that
> of A123's, and even worse compared to other Lithiums.
3.2V*2.4Ah/0.150kg is 67Wh/kg. not sure where you got 50. but it's still
rather low.
it seems to be a high power cell and very long cycle life and I could
live with 67Wh/kg but the price would have to be really good
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:51:51 +0100
From: Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Toshiba SCiB batteries correction
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
correction it should read:
2.4V x 4.2Ah / 0.150kg is 67Wh/kg
the result was right but the numbers on the left weren't
and of course the 50Wh/kg is from the pack specs and not from the cell.
only fair to compare cell to cell against A123.
Dan
Dan Frederiksen wrote:
> Morgan LaMoore wrote:
>
>> If you run the calculations on their table, that's only 50 Wh/kg; half that
>> of A123's, and even worse compared to other Lithiums.
>>
> 3.2V*2.4Ah/0.150kg is 67Wh/kg. not sure where you got 50. but it's still
> rather low.
>
> it seems to be a high power cell and very long cycle life and I could
> live with 67Wh/kg but the price would have to be really good
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:05:04 -0700
From: "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Green push hits tire makers
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252
>From today's wall street journal
Green Push Hits Tire Makers
Threat of Regulation Has Industry
Scrambling to Block, Modify Proposals
By STEPHEN POWER
December 11, 2007; Page A18
Frankfurt
A new industry is coming under pressure as governments look for ways
to make cars use less carbon-belching fuel: tire makers.
The European Union is expected to propose regulations that would set
limits on tire rolling resistance, or the force a tire must overcome
to move a vehicle. In California, legislators have passed a law
calling for similar rules. In Washington, Congress is considering
legislation that would create a consumer-information program on tire
energy efficiency.
KICKING THE TIRES
? Beyond Cars: Regulators in the EU and U.S. are considering moves to
make tires more energy efficient.
? Defraying Pressure: The move comes as car makers complain they bear
the brunt of costly fuel-efficiency efforts.
? Differing Responses: The industry opposes the toughest measures but
supports others that give them an advantage over lower-cost tire
makers.
The threat of new regulations has prompted a rush by established tire
makers to block the most rigorous proposals. In Europe, tire makers
are moving to shape the regulations in ways that would give them an
advantage against less technologically advanced rivals.
The focus on tires reflects a broader effort by governments to shift
some of the burden of fuel-economy rules away from auto makers, which
say job cuts and costly design changes will result from the most
ambitious proposals to cut vehicle emissions. This year, the EU eased
its proposal for cutting average emissions of carbon dioxide, which
contributes to global warming, from new cars in Europe to 18% over
five years from the 25% it had proposed earlier.
To make up the difference, the European Commission plans to go beyond
more-efficient engines. Among the body's new proposals: increased use
of biofuels, more efficient air-conditioning systems in vehicles, and
energy-efficiency standards for tires.
In theory, boosting a tire's energy efficiency is relatively easy and
inexpensive. As much as 20% of the energy needed to operate a car is
tire-related, according to some industry estimates. The lower a tire's
rolling resistance, the less energy the car consumes.
A study last year by the National Academy of Sciences in the U.S.
estimated that as many as two billion gallons of gasoline and diesel
fuel could be saved each year in the U.S. by reducing the average
rolling resistance of automobile tires by 10%. That would be
equivalent to taking four million cars and light trucks off the road.
In Europe, adding low-rolling-resistance tires to cars drives up their
production costs by about ?20 to ?30, or nearly $30 to $45, per
vehicle, based on estimates by Credit Suisse Group.
For manufacturers, an easy way to cut a tire's rolling resistance is
to reduce the thickness of its tread. The problem, some industry
officials said, is that reducing a tire's rolling resistance too much
can weaken its traction or shorten the tire's life span.
Germany's Continental AG said its tests indicate that tires designed
primarily with low-rolling resistance in mind tend to have longer
stopping distances on wet surfaces. The National Academy of Sciences
study, however, reported that the safety consequences of reducing tire
rolling resistance "are probably undetectable," and that a 10%
reduction is "feasible and attainable within a decade" through new
tire technologies and improved designs.
This year, the U.S. Senate considered a proposal to require all
passenger-automobile tires to meet low-rolling-resistance standards.
The tire industry warned it would have to make tires that wear out
more quickly, piling up more used tires in scrap yards.
The industry coalesced around a proposal to create a national system
for rating tires on energy efficiency, leaving it up to consumers and
car companies to decide which tires to buy. That is part of broader
legislation being considered by Congress that would also raise
automobile fuel-economy standards.
"Congressional leaders were telling us that there's a lot of concern
about fuel use and that you guys need to start saying something other
than 'no' to doing something," said Dan Zielinski, a spokesman for the
Washington-based Rubber Manufacturers Association.
Mr. Zielinski's group had less success dissuading California
legislators from passing a law that requires state regulators to set
energy-efficiency standards for tires. Before imposing new standards,
however, state regulators are required under the law to show they
won't "adversely affect" tire safety or California's effort to manage
scrap tires or tire life span. Although California's law raises the
prospect of a de-facto national standard, industry officials are
skeptical the state will ever be able to implement such standards.
"We believe the thresholds they need to overcome are not likely to be
surmountable," Mr. Zielinski said. A spokeswoman for the California
Energy Commission said the agency is "confident that we can work with
the tire industry to establish tire efficiency standards that meet our
mandates."
In Europe, tire makers have concluded new regulations are inevitable.
Unlike the U.S., the EU is party to the Kyoto Protocol, the
international treaty that sets mandatory targets for cutting global
greenhouse-gas emissions.
Rather than try to block new EU standards, Western and Japanese tire
makers are pressing regulators not only to set standards for rolling
resistance, but also to establish new requirements for braking
performance and to mandate consumer-friendly labels that would grade
tires on energy efficiency and how well they perform on wet or
slippery surfaces.
By taking on mandates, the industry's more established players, such
as Continental and Japan's Bridgestone Corp., could gain an edge
against tire makers from India and China, which tend to spend less on
research and development, industry analysts said.
France's Michelin SA is touting the fuel-saving potential of its
"green tires." The company recently started a global ad campaign for
its most energy-efficient tires.
This year, Michelin got a major boost when French car maker PSA
Peugeot-Citroen SA adopted its fourth-generation "Energy Saver" tire
for the new Peugeot 308 hatchback. Michelin officials say the tires
will cut the car's carbon dioxide emissions by four grams per
kilometer, equal to a reduction of about one metric ton of carbon
dioxide during the life of the vehicle. The tire's braking distance on
wet roads also is about 10 feet shorter than the previous-generation
tire. Michelin charges auto makers about 10% more for the tire than it
does for a conventional tire, though specific price levels depend on
the volume of the car maker's order, a Michelin spokesman said. Price
levels for the replacement market haven't been announced yet.
"We know how to make a tire which can brake short and at the same time
is fuel efficient," said Thierry Coudurier, president of Michelin's
passenger-car and light-truck tire division. "We don't think all of
our competitors are able to do that."
Write to Stephen Power at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:19:56 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Water cooling pump
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Evan Tuer wrote:
>> I'll just add my opinion that these are excellent pumps...
Metric Mind wrote:
> I know this and everyone who has those knows as well, but it makes
> no difference - people on EVDL is just wrong crowd to market them to.
It's like running a store. 99% of the people coming in don't buy
anything -- they are just "shopping." They may talk about how "this is
too expensive", or "I've got something better than that in the garage".
But the key point is that they are not customers (yet). They don't need
it yet, or need it but don't have the money yet, or whatever.
Everyone on the EV list is a potential customer. Maybe not today, but
(hopefully) someday! So, the smart shop owner is polite, understanding;
he'll let them in the store, let them look, put up with their kibitzing.
He knows that some day they may be back -- to buy!
Treat 99% of what you read on the EV list like that -- kibitzing. They
don't understand what it is, or don't know they need it, or don't have
the money. So they talk... Hang in there; they'll come around.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:57:30 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] another one done RAH!
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Hi EVerybody;
All this talk about a really viable conversion biz. I'm in that situation
that I guess Tim and Mike fantisize about? I HAVE a small pension, an
retired and have more time to play. So far, year's production;Zip! It is so
damn TIME consuming , working alone, can't afford to hire anybody, unless
they want to work for free?I doubt it?
It's the TIME thing. I'm redoing the component plsacement stuff in the 87
Sentra, as I realized that stuff WILL get wet, dispite my fiberglassing over
the grill. So am making a "shelf" toward the firewall to keep the DC to dc
converter, controller and charger dry. That's easy, as I'm more the Hands
on, sort of guy with, say, battery boxes and that sort of stuff. Cabling it
up is easy, I enjoy that. Finding and fixing quirky electrical stuff on the
car. Like the damn TAIL lights don't work, right now. The Jetta I NEVER got
BOTH headlights to work, or the speedo, but it IS drivable, I have a clip
lead and "Hotwire" the OTHER lite to work, as needed. I can spend HOURS
diddle fucking with stuff like that! So I figure it as more a hobby, than a
biz. The 97 Sentra I put the motor tranny into the car and it could NEVER
work that way. Shift er bar hits the crossmember! I didn't take the car
apart, junkyard did, so I never saw the correct way it went!They MAY have
bent it taking the engine out. I have thought of having, and paying a Nissan
Mech guy to come over and tell me what I'm doing wrong.Remember that motor
trannuy I had on my bench, would run it up to show how it worked? Hah! It
wouldn't turn when I put it in the car! I'm NOT an ace car mechanic; I HATE
cars! I would rather BUY a good EV and do other stuff, like paint the house
trim, renovate rooms inside, do more RR Museum work I spent the better part
of last week raking the @#$%^ Leaves and hauling them away!I would like tp
buy an airplane engine WITH prop, bolt it to the front of my van and BLAST,
with the propwash, the damn leaves hundreds of feet out into the woods!One
too old to be aireworthy but good enough for a leaf blower. Those wimpy
little 32 cc blowers just don't DO it!
Retired!? Like hell. I don't know how I found time to go to work?The EV
thing cou;ld/ is full time<g>!IF you could find a simple car/truck, or
whatever, to convert? That's Wayne's secret to success. Finding clean cars
here in the Rust Belt is a challange, too.Maybe I should Train out to OR
every summer find a clean car in CA or OR to DRIVE home and convert?Right
now, I have no"standard" car, EVery one is a one-off. Jokes Wagens?I'm
pretty fed up with the poor quality control with the bodies. Iffy electrical
systems, headliners falling down,windshield leaks around the edges! Door
handles that fall apart.Leaking ,RUSTING. Feh. Maybe Nissans are a better
bet? I'm doing two, right now. I sorta like the Greo Metros, but they are
GONE from here, like Rabbits. You just don't see Rabbits around here
anymore. What ones you do are mulch!
Maybe I should settle for trux, like Wayne has?Lots of real estate under
the hood to work with., for starters. And you CAN go for range, Red Beastie
style?On and on. I would like to hear from youse guyz as to a conversion
biz, anyhow. Been holding my tongue on this one<g>!
Seeya out in the Garage?
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 4:40 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] another one done RAH!
> Tim,
> I've had the same thoughts. Except that my current job pays slightly more
> than the family actually needs. I'm not optimistic that a conversion shop
> would do any better. The best I could hope for is the 33% chance it
> performs the same as my current job. In your case you could take a 66%
> chance for b.) or c.) or the 100% chance that your current job says
> intact.
> I know, it's a tough decision. After a year and a half I'm still
> struggling
> with it. At least keeping the day job I have a little extra money to
> support my EV habit. If I had a conversion shop that made any less I
> wouldn't have any $$ to play with. Although, you could probably get real
> friendly with vendors as well as those who dumpster dive for motors. I
> can
> see the joy in finding junk motors that are diamonds in the rough. Kinda
> like finding a $100 bill :-) All that scrounging could be fun and
> rewarding, and so what's a poor ol' working dude to do? Keep dreamin' I
> suppose... and some day it will come true. Wayne and Sharon are doing it
> and I applaud them for that. It is great to inspire folks to drive
> electric, and if it means building them the cars to do it in then all the
> better.
>
> Mike Willmon
>
> -----Original Message-----
> Tim Humphrey wrote:
>
> John, you're entitled to your opinion. I am not trying to change it, nor
> am
> I trying to belittle, demean or bash you for it.
>
> But here is "my case".
>
> I have been contemplating an EV Conversion Business for some time. My
> dilemma is; I have bills, a family to support, and a fairly well paying
> job
> that takes care of those two. Do I quit my day job to pursue my gaol of
> starting an EV Conversion shop or do I just continue along the path I am
> currently on.
>
> 1. Continue doing the same old thing, it pays the bills and keeps the
> family
> relatively financially secure.
>
> 2. Quit the job start the EV Conversion Business.
> a. It may fail. I go bankrupt and the whole family suffers as a result
> of
> *my* choice.
> b. It may do OK providing the same level of financial comfort as the day
> job.
> C. It may thrive and surpass the day job.
>
> Hmmm two out of three ain't bad.....
>
>
> Wayne and Sharon posting a simple little "We did another one" pushes me
> closer and closer to actually making the leap. Heck , if they can do it in
> Kansas, I surely could do it in New York.
>
> If another EV Business starts-up, in part because of their simple
> comments,
> would you then consider those comments useful?
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.28/1023 - Release Date:
> 9/22/2007 1:27 PM
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 9:19:46 -0700
From: Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] another one done RAH!
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:57:30 -0500, "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Maybe I should settle for trux, like Wayne has?Lots of real estate
> under
> the hood to work with., for starters. And you CAN go for range, Red
> Beastie
> style?On and on. I would like to hear from youse guyz as to a conversion
> biz, anyhow. Been holding my tongue on this one<g>!
>
> Seeya out in the Garage?
>
>
or the rusty trusty Ford......
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
I-5, Blossvale NY
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:01:51 -0800 (PST)
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Green push hits tire makers
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Thanks for posting that article. You would hope lawmakers would look at
lifetime emissions (tire manufacture plus gas used) rather than just gas used.
It could be a tire makers dream, make tread 1/2 as thick to reduce the rolling
resistance, so you sell twice as many tires (but that would lead to more
pollution elsewhere, due to all the energy of manufacturing twice the tires).
I'd bet tire pressure sensors would be ultimately cheaper (for the consumer in
the long run) and save more fuel. Better yet, set a legal goal (emissions), and
let the bright automotive engineers figure out the best ways to get there.
One personal data point: I ran my car on its Hoosier race tires for a couple of
weeks. The gas mileage was about 15% lower than normal (actually less of a drop
than I had expected).
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------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:05:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] prestolite mlx-4002?
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hey Joseph
I thought I'd get this out before my day got busy. I
did in fact look at th MLX-4001 yestarday. I also
missed the test page in the OE-92 manual so here's the
spec's that Prestolite gives.
54 amps, 2200 RPM's min, at 6 volts @ 0 Ft. Lbs.
159 amps, 3060 to 3500 RPM's at 21.7 volts @ 5 Ft.
Lbs.
Like I said these armatures and coils are really
course wound. The armature number is MGE-2126 and the
coils are number MLX-3005S and the brush number is
MEE-1012GS.
If you plan on using this motor at a higher voltage
you'll need to advance the brush timing by 10 degrees.
As I stated before this motor will be an amp sucking
pig compared to other 6.7" 4 brushed Prestolites.
Besides that the other issue you'll face is snapping
off that shaft under higher voltages and torque.
Hope this helps
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:21:37 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Who Killed the Electric Car
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Hi EVerybody;
I just got a note from Netflix, yesterday. IF you aren't familiar with
them, like being a member, they blow out viewed DVD's now and again. Imagine
my surprise when they had WKTEC, used, for 5.99!! With Shipping It came to
6.35, so, of course I ordered another. Never know when yur gunna need a
spare<g>!
Just thought I'd let ya know. No excuse to mot have your OWN copy, now!
Scene ya
Bob
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:30:31 -0500
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] another one done RAH!
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] another one done RAH!
>
>
>
> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:57:30 -0500, "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Maybe I should settle for trux, like Wayne has?Lots of real estate
>> under
>> the hood to work with., for starters. And you CAN go for range, Red
>> Beastie
>> style?On and on. I would like to hear from youse guyz as to a conversion
>> biz, anyhow. Been holding my tongue on this one<g>!
>>
>> Seeya out in the Garage?
>>
>>
>
> or the rusty trusty Ford......
>
> Yeah! Ya got a point. Lighter and good ventalation with the rust holes
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> I-5, Blossvale NY
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
> --
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.13.28/1023 - Release Date:
> 9/22/2007 1:27 PM
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:04:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Imbob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] E-meter guts and fixing them
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I've almost finished reverse engineering the analog portion of the e-meter. I
know there are ethics involved with this, but I just want to fix mine so I
can use the dumb thing.
The part marked "723" is not an op-amp at all as I thought and was
suggested, it is a 5V reference. I plan on replacing the one chip that
provided 2 op-amps for the current portion, as well as all the diodes in
that path. I think all the rest of the e-meter is working as it should.
Interestingly there is a DC-DC converter built on the e-meter.. just not
isolated (it cant be made isolated either without significant effort)! When
I get more details filled in on my schematics, I may scan them and put them
someplace if I feel it would be right of me to do so.
As a senior EE student, I feel I'm learning a lot about analog design by
looking at how they put this together. One thing that is still confusing me
is the A/D converter. The current amps have rails of +-7.5V, but the A/D has
references of 0V and 5V. So how does the meter read negative amps? I dont
how the signal could get referenced up to the center of the reference
voltages (ie 0-2.5V is negative, 2.5-5V is positive). But there is still one
portion of the circuit that I have not traced out yet, and it looks like it
COULD control the 5V reference and push it down to -5V. Perhaps I will
discover it in a few more days of probing. I'm having fun either way!
-Jon
--
View this message in context:
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------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 10:16:57 -0700
From: "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Transistor retaining clips
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>I'm disappointed by the problems with the thermal epoxies. I need some
>sort of electrical insulation between the transistors and heatsink; is
>there really nothing better than thermal pads?
Before Beryllium became an issue, the older pads offered the best
heat conduction and electrical insulation. Mica is pretty good.
The rubber pads aren't nearly as good but they are easier to deal
with and less fragile.
In an automotive environment, I've seen some of the thermal glues
being used in automotive engine controllers, but the thermal
conduction usually only needs to be 'ok' and not 'great'. The older
Cummins N14 had a controller used that, I think it was Motorola that
built it.
-Dale
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 12:46:01 -0600
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] K2 pricing
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Dec 11, 2007 5:06 AM, Jukka J?rvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> p.s.- I still believe the paralled cell packs from PHET are crazy thing
> to do. Same thing with all parallering of Lithium.
The U of M solar car team (and many other teams) have been paralleling
Lithium cells for years. And we aren't paralleling LiFePO4 cells,
we're paralleling the more dangerous Lithium Polymer cells. There've
only been a few Lithium incidents, and those were all due to poor BMS
protection systems. The U of M solar car parallels its batteries at
every step of the way, so you have several modules in series, each of
which is a parallel group of cells. This way, you can easily measure
the voltage of every cell/module, and weak cells can self-balance at
the module level, not affecting any of the other cells in the pack
except those in parallel with them.
These cells we're looking at are LiFePO4, making them much safer. Look
at Killacycle; they abuse their batteries like crazy, letting them sag
to 50% for max power, and their batteries are still doing fine.
That said, a BMS is much more important for Lithium, and it should do
more than something like a Rudman Reg.
-Morgan LaMoore
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:42:23 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Water cooling pump
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On 11 Dec 2007 at 4:03, Metric Mind wrote:
> people on EVDL is just wrong crowd to market them to.
Well, there are some folks here who are looking for "plug and play" and
don't mind paying for it. At the limit of this are the people who are
waiting for an EV they can buy, and expecting to hear about it first on the
EVDL. Nothing wrong with that.
But it's true that there's a strong spirit of improv on the EVDL. It's
often a matter of pride to find a cheaper, simpler, creative way to
accomplish the job. Reliability and simplicity are nice for these people,
but figuring out how to do it on the cheap is more fun. And making it work
for free is sort of the ultimate challenge!
Anyway, the point is that we have plenty of room for both (all!) kinds here.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 20:50:00 +0200
From: "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Ranger Motors
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Just want to remind potential buyers that you have to change the
bearings if you are going to use this motor without the original
transmission/differential. The bearings are open type, lubricated by
the special type of tranny oil.
I am also doubtful about those selling numbers.. but I could be wrong.
Osmo
Jeff Shanab kirjoitti 7.12.2007 kello 5.22:
> I emailed the guy on the ranger motors, (guessing they were the
> same on
> ebay because of how many were avail/made)
> Here is the response I got...
>
>
>
>> Jeff,
>>
>> We don't keep the website up as lots come and go, so the ones there
>> are only to suggest the range of what we deal in (want some Pratt and
>> Whitney or GE jet engines / parts, magnet wire, 3 million pounds of
>> mustard seed, or surgical scrubs?).
>>
>> On the Siemens motors, you're probably referring to the Ebay listings
>> by Electro Mavin - who placed the English language listing there, and
>> you'll find the other languages posted by us. We are sister
>> companies
>> and own the motors jointly.
>>
>> Since my friend Bob (Mr. Mavin) just passed away, feel free to write
>> me on these motors. If you want to pick up, cash and carry,
>> certified
>> check, wire transfer, no cards, not on Ebay you can do so at $1500.
>> I'd have to check though, if we have any left at the warehouse in
>> Compton, CA.
>>
>> We bought several hundred a few years ago and we're quite happy with
>> the deal - we've shipped them around the world to manufacturers in
>> Japan, Australia, and Europe - one at a time and 30 at a time. We
>> just
>> sold 20 in South Carolina at the $1500 price, and shipped three
>> singles last week at $2000 each.
>>
>> We've never had a defective unit or return. We have fewer than 100
>> left and as with everything else we offer, they are subject to
>> possible prior sale.
>>
>> Hope this answers your question.
>>
>> Best of luck,
>>
>> Harvey
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:22:24 -0800 (PST)
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] E-meter guts and fixing them
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Check the meter itself for it's calibration, if is a "null center = 0"
the "0" calibration may be set @ 2.5V pos.
Imbob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>>The current amps have rails of +-7.5V, but the A/D has
references of 0V and 5V. So how does the meter read negative amps? I dont
how the signal could get referenced up to the center of the reference
voltages (ie 0-2.5V is negative, 2.5-5V is positive). <<<<
------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:26:13 -0800 (PST)
From: ampaynz1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Short Battery Cables Needed
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Well, just buy some 2/0 cable for $2.50 a foot or best price you find. Make
sure it is welding cable as it bends nicely.
Now buy a hammer!
Next, buy gloves, and buy some safety goggle, a must. Oh, go ahead and buy
some ear plugs or safety muffs, cost $3 for them.
Go to local metal shop and buy lugs, cost $2 each normally. If your not
lucky enough to know of such a store, then go to lowes and buy a 3/0 lug as
it close to a LENCO 2/0 lug in size. I am sure some would disagree on
oversizing.
Now buy some sharp stainless steel scissors.
Now cut the cable with the scissors buy sawing it back and forth. Try not to
brake the scissors. Should take 30sec to 1 min if you are patient to saw
through it.
Now take the lug and measure the distance you need to strip off each end.
Now take your scissors and go around the welding cable rubber in a circle
until you start to hear the paper crack. Next, bend and pull on rubber
piece. If some piece isn't cut evenly you can use a knife to gently cut this
rubber off or hold scissors at an angle and use as a knife. Note one side
will be setting on uncut rubber.
Do the same things to the other end of the cable.
Once you get this down it shouldn't take more then 5 minutes to cut and
prepare the cable.
Now insert the cable stripped end into the lug.
If don't own a crimping tool, then I suggest Lenco Swedge-On Tool Model 840
. Cost is $8.41. Pull up and put your lug in it. Now beat the living crap
out of it. Keep doing so until you see it is deformed. Well it easy to see
when it is done. Normally, takes 6-8 hits at a minimum.
Before you hit it with the hammer, make sure your lug is angled right. I
normally check alignment after 1st and 2nd hit as it can change a little.
Lenco Swedge-On Tool Model 840l can be bought at many different places, but
I found this company to be the cheapest http://tinyurl.com/2rtzwy . Of
course using a $250 crimping tool would be a lot cooler and easier. However,
if you like hammering nails, then this will work fine.
Lloyd Wayne Reece wrote:
>
> I am looking for a source where I can order some battery cables. I am
> looking for cables with battery post connectors that are 6 to 8 inches
> long to go between my 6volt batteries. Any websites that someone can
> recommend or what would it take to make them myself and is the cost
> difference worth the effort??
>
> Lloyd Wayne Reece
> 1981 Lectra Centauri
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Short-Battery-Cables-Needed-tp14245785s25542p14281282.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:27:25 -0800 (PST)
From: ampaynz1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Short Battery Cables Needed
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Well, just buy some 2/0 cable for $2.50 a foot or best price you find. Make
sure it is welding cable as it bends nicely.
Now buy a hammer!
Next, buy gloves, and buy some safety goggle, a must. Oh, go ahead and buy
some ear plugs or safety muffs, cost $3 for them.
Go to local metal shop and buy lugs, cost $2 each normally. If your not
lucky enough to know of such a store, then go to lowes and buy a 3/0 lug as
it close to a LENCO 2/0 lug in size. I am sure some would disagree on
oversizing.
Now buy some sharp stainless steel scissors.
Now cut the cable with the scissors by sawing it back and forth. Try not to
brake the scissors. Should take 30sec to 1 min if you are patient to saw
through it.
Now take the lug and measure the distance you need to strip off each end.
Now take your scissors and go around the welding cable rubber in a circle
until you start to hear the paper crack. Next, bend and pull on rubber
piece. If some piece isn't cut evenly you can use a knife to gently cut this
rubber off or hold scissors at an angle and use as a knife. Note one side
will be setting on uncut rubber.
Do the same things to the other end of the cable.
Once you get this down it shouldn't take more then 5 minutes to cut and
prepare the cable.
Now insert the cable stripped end into the lug.
If don't own a crimping tool, then I suggest Lenco Swedge-On Tool Model 840
. Cost is $8.41. Pull up and put your lug in it. Now beat the living crap
out of it. Keep doing so until you see it is deformed. Well it easy to see
when it is done. Normally, takes 6-8 hits at a minimum.
Before you hit it with the hammer, make sure your lug is angled right. I
normally check alignment after 1st and 2nd hit as it can change a little.
Lenco Swedge-On Tool Model 840l can be bought at many different places, but
I found this company to be the cheapest http://tinyurl.com/2rtzwy . Of
course using a $250 crimping tool would be a lot cooler and easier. However,
if you like hammering nails, then this will work fine.
Lloyd Wayne Reece wrote:
>
> I am looking for a source where I can order some battery cables. I am
> looking for cables with battery post connectors that are 6 to 8 inches
> long to go between my 6volt batteries. Any websites that someone can
> recommend or what would it take to make them myself and is the cost
> difference worth the effort??
>
> Lloyd Wayne Reece
> 1981 Lectra Centauri
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
>
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Short-Battery-Cables-Needed-tp14245785s25542p14281282.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 13:37:56 -0600
From: "Morgan LaMoore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] E-meter guts and fixing them
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Dec 11, 2007 12:04 PM, Imbob <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ... I dont
> how the signal could get referenced up to the center of the reference
> voltages (ie 0-2.5V is negative, 2.5-5V is positive). But there is still one
> portion of the circuit that I have not traced out yet, and it looks like it
> COULD control the 5V reference and push it down to -5V. Perhaps I will
> discover it in a few more days of probing. I'm having fun either way!
One easy way to change the reference like that is to use an op-amp and
4 resistors. The circuit is like an inverting amplifier, but the
positive input is connected to a resistor divider between your
reference voltage and ground. With the right resistor values, you can
map -50mV to +50mV input onto 0V to 4V output, for example. And it
even works on a single-supply op-amp!
-Morgan LaMoore
------------------------------
Message: 23
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 14:54:38 -0500 (EST)
From: "Dave (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Juiced Up, was: Re: Online NY Times article link
there today
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Yo Shawn and All,
Yes I'm WAY behind on the list after traveling with John Bryan and the
KillaCycle for eight glorious days! I'm back in the Peoples Republic of Boulder
County, hating the snow and the county, and now want to go back down South for
the
Winter. Anyway, do you have a pit crew for Juiced Up? Hint, hint...
Suck Amps,
BB
>Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:08:33 -0500
>
<snip>
>
>All the above will be complete and in house by the end of the year. The
>primary objective of this project and this car (aside from going very
>fast) is to build on the NEDRA foundation that is the result of 10
>years of hard work and dedication by so many key pioneers, (you know
>who you are), and tour the country promoting NEDRA and the sport of
>electric drag racing.
<snip>
------------------------------
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EV@lists.sjsu.edu
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End of EV Digest, Vol 5, Issue 35
*********************************
