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Today's Topics:
1. Re: charge in parallel, discharge in series (Jeff Major)
2. Re: Electric Dragin (David Dymaxion)
3. video canadian Zen electric car factory and discussion of why
Canadian regulations disallow it's sale in Canada but not the USA
(at least we aren't the only country with screwed up regs!) (Geopilot)
4. Re: Looking for NiCad Batteries - SAFT 6V 180Ah
(EVDL Administrator)
5. Re: Need to design BMS system for LiFePO4 cells - some
questions (Lee Hart)
6. Re: Electric Draggon (aka Electric Dragin':-) (Jim Waite)
7. Battery Beach Burnout Photos and Video (Eric Udell)
8. Re: Electric Dragin (Jim Husted)
9. Re: Increasing pole count for DC motors (Jeff Major)
10. Re: Cooty 2seat NEV (Lawrence Rhodes)
11. Re: Sparrow Tire Melt-down! (Lawrence Rhodes)
12. GatorMoto NEV sales. (Lawrence Rhodes)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:04:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] charge in parallel, discharge in series
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hi David,
At the risk of Damon telling us that we talk of
modular charging whereas the thread is about parallel
charging, I will respond. My previous post was a
reply to you, so I kept the same thread. I realize it
is not exactly parallel charging. But then a lot of
posts deviate from the original thread subject. I
think modular charging is close enough to parallel
charging to be considered. In fact, it accomplishes
the desired result with potentially greater
reliability and lower cost.
WRT to the Dual Pro, I found that my 10 amp rated
chargers typically ran at 5 to 6 amps. Even with a
deeply discharged battery, I saw 9 amps for a few
seconds, with a quick drop to about 5 or 6. This
leads me to believe that they may not fully charge the
batteries in a single shift.
Also, I do not like the charge algorithm. I don't
remember the figures, but it was something along the
lines that they went to 13.5 volts, stopped, and then
occasionally cycled. In my mind, not a full charge,
and no float. Before I took a close look at the volts
and amps, I threw one on a vehicle an used it for
about 6 months. I can't say it was the cause, but
those batteries aren't much good any more.
I also saw moisture on the inside of the LED lenses.
And what appeared to be a crack on two corners of the
case. The company did send a replacement in short
order. They also claim a "program change". They told
me that their engineer would visit and clear up all my
questions. After I made arrangements, that day I
learned he was too busy.
I put the Dual Pro charger and the murdered batteries
in an old vehicle which is rarely used and went to the
Minn Kota chargers in the truck I use often. For
production, I am sticking with Minn Kota. They
deliver rated amps for most of the charge cycle and
seem to have a logical algorithm. Also appear to be a
high quality. The Minn Kota cost a few bucks more,
but I think worth it.
Regards,
Jeff M
--- David Hrivnak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jeff what trouble with you have with Dual-Pro? I
> did have one fail but they
> were great on the replacement. Just one call and I
> had it in 2 days and
> they gave me the label to send it back postage free.
>
> To be fair I was having it charger two batteries per
> lead and now I have one
> lead per battery. I only have a week of operation
> so it remains to be seen
> if it will work long term but they do seen rugged
> enough.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Major
> Sent: Friday, January 25, 2008 11:01 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] charge in parallel, discharge in
> series
>
>
> Hi David,
>
> I also use individual 12 volt charging on 48 volt
> utility trucks. I tried the Dual Pro. The 4 bank
> SE
> model. Had some trouble with it. Did some testing.
>
> Results were disappointing. Went back to the Minn
> Kota multiple chargers. They work great.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jeff M
>
> --- David Hrivnak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I have not had a lot of experience here but I
> think
> > I am doing this and it
> > appears to be working. I have twelve 12V
> batteries
> > in 2 72V strings. Each
> > battery has its own charger. I am using Dual-Pro
> > Lil 3 chargers each
> > charger will charge 3 batteries and thus I have 4
> of
> > them.
> >
> > They seem to charge the batteries to the same
> level
> > and if I running a test
> > on say two batteries the chargers bring them all
> > back to the same level.
> > The batteries not used in the test will
> immediately
> > go to float mode and
> > those I used may take a few hours to reach their
> > charge, depending on how
> > long I tested. I have been lightly testing for 3
> > months now.
> >
> > So the batteries are connected to the charger and
> in
> > a 72V string at the
> > same time. That does not appear to be a problem.
> >
____________________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:24:54 -0800 (PST)
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Dragin
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I'm back today from Electric Dragin http://www.electricdragin.com . What a
great EVent and what fun! Thanks to Keith et al for such a great EVent! I'll
try to get my pictures and vids posted in a day or two.
There was a good turnout of electric vehicles (maybe 30+ vehicles drag raced,
and again that many that didn't race were on display). Three cars autocrossed
and about 5 scooter scooter-crossed. Here are some vehicle highlights:
Berube's S10 race truck.
2SSIC's lithium Cobras
A Davinci flying machine inspired mobile art
3 wheel Zap electric trucks
A truly minitruck
A cardboard box -- you have to see the video -- truly a crowd pleaser!
Plus there were conversions, scooters, Segways, motorcycles, hybrids...
My favorite races were the Berube S10 vs. 2SSIC Cobra. Both would burn rubber.
The Cobra wheels would suddenly bite with a load screech. Both would run the
1/8 at close to 8.0 seconds. Very impressive was that the S10 was only a few
1/1000ths of a second behind; heavy truck vs. light sports car; and lead acid
vs. lithium. Berube knows how to fine tune his machine!
Dennis also gave my son and me a nice tour of his machine. I was very impressed
by the overall tidiness. The frame acts as an air tank for the onboard
compressor. This way if it cracks he knows because the pressure drops. Also,
then he can adjust the air shocks, power the air locker, pump up tires, and run
his plasma cutter. That's right, this is a work truck, too, with room for a MIG
welder, TIG welder, and plasma cutter in the back, that can all run off the
battery pack!
A lady named Mary Lou had a nice red Miata. I asked for a 1/8 mile ride -- she
answered by handing me the keys and letting me do a run! That was the highlight
of the trip for me! She had just bought it and this was the first day she had
driven it, way to start things out right!
This was by far the most varied and diverse "race" crowd I have ever seen.
Young, old, male, and female were all there in good proportions. I liked it the
majority of those at the driver's meeting had not drag raced before, and most
of the autocrossers were first timers, too. The track folks were friendly and
helpful to the newbies, and unconventional vehicles. I'm already looking
forward to next year!
____________________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:27:08 -0800
From: Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] video canadian Zen electric car factory and discussion
of why Canadian regulations disallow it's sale in Canada but not the
USA (at least we aren't the only country with screwed up regs!)
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M88k6Ipp3c
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:08:38 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Looking for NiCad Batteries - SAFT 6V 180Ah
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Saft no longer manufactures STM180s. I've heard that once in a while they
have used or refurbished ones in usable condition.
It's getting tough to find good used STM180s. They still show up on Ebay
from time to time, but at least some of those come from decomissioned buses
and I worry that they've been well used. These batteries last anywhere from
1500 to 3000 cycles, but from what I understand, the buses cycled them quite
a lot.
Good luck. I hope you can find something.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:47:02 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Need to design BMS system for LiFePO4 cells - some
questions
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Lloyd Wayne Reece wrote:
> My regulators work like this: When the battery gets to the proper
> voltage, they shunt the charge off to a high wattage resistor...
> instead of thru the battery. This does waste a bit of the charge but
> it keeps the battery from being over charged while it allows the rest
> of the pack to come up to that same level.
This is a good first step. But it is important to realize that voltage
is only an *indirect* indication of state of charge. It is particularly
inaccurate while charging as you near full charge. Clamping the voltages
all the same *tends* to prevent overcharging; but it doesn't mean all
the batteries are at the same state of charge.
Fran wrote:
>> I need to design a BMS system for LiFePO4 cells. I understand the
>> monitoring part completely - linking the BMS system to the
>> controller to prevent over-discharge and to the charger to prevent
>> over-charge.
The situation with lithiums is different than for lead-acids. With
lithiums, there are strict limits on the maximum and minimum voltages
they can be taken to, regardless of state of charge. Too high, or too
low a voltage (pretty much regardless of the current), and you will
damage or destroy a cell.
>> My question is about balancing the cells. A simple
>> way that comes to mind is to simply discharge the cells (FET
>> transistor + power resistor for each cell) until all the cells have
>> about the same voltage
"Balancing" implies having all cells at the same state of charge, or
having the same energy stored in them (which is not quite the same thing).
Lead-acids last the longest, and have the best performance (lowest
resistance) when kept full. So, the goal with a lead-acid BMS is to keep
them all as full as possible. Since they will have slightly different
amphour capacities, this means at the end of a charge, some will be more
deeply discharged than others. Example; you have some cells that hold
80ah, and some hold 100ah. Start fully charged (all 100% SOC). Take 80ah
out; now you have some at 0% SOC and some at 20% SOC.
Lithiums last as long, and perform the same at pretty much any SOC. So
the goal of your BMS is different; it's job is to keep cells from
bumping into 100% or 0% SOC. In a pack with some 80ah and some 100ah
cells, you can charge the higher-capacity cells less (to reduce risk of
overcharging). For example, the 80ah cell still goes from 100% to 0%,
but the 100ah cell might go from 90% to 10%.
>> However, it would be nice to be able to take fully charged cells
>> out of the series chain during charging. No simple way to do this
>> comes to mind. Am I missing something?
As I said, it is only necessary to keep each cell from going dead or
overcharging. It doesn't really matter if they are at the same state of
charge -- the weakest (lowest capacity) cell sets the limit for the
whole string.
To change the *relative* state of charge between cells, your only
options are to charge some but not other; or to discharge some but not
others. One way or another, this means you have to connect something to
each cell.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:08:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Waite <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Draggon (aka Electric Dragin':-)
To: EVDL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
-->>Dennis wrote<<---
> I wish to thank the promoters and sponsors of the 1st time Event in
> San DiEgo. ...... I am very happy to have attended, and I much look
forward to next years dragon event. Dennis Berube
-->snip<<--
To which I want to add my sincere thanks to EVeryone involved in
organizing and bringing this truly amazing EVent to fruition: It simply
never ceases to amaze me the dedication of our EV community to support
these EVents which frankly allows EVeryone involved to keep (or get)
amp'd and inspired!
Similar to Dennis, a last minute change of plans allowed me to attend,
and as I drove into the Barona Drag Strip, I was candidly blown away by
the hundreds (literally!) who showed up for this EV's only EVent(and
hybrids, but no STEENKIN GASSERS!), especially on a blustery and chili
day (by San Diego standards).
I especially appreciated all of the racers efforts, and in particular
Dennis's new S-10 and Michael Kady's TWO lithium-powered Cobra's (these
two put on one helluva show!). I'm still working on getting the video
downloads stitched together for a triad of heads up "grudge" racing
between these two, as well as some great bracket racing by Michael &
others. Also, if he hasn't already seen it, I think there's a contender
down here looking to "unseat" Otmar and his Electric Couch! Obviously
photos & videos can only go so far to tell "the whole story", but for
me, the in-person camaraderie (and friendly on & off track-side
bantering), and cheering from the crowd goes a LONG way towards stokin'
the EV fires.
It was great to spend time chatting with Dennis, Michael, Jim Husted,
Brian Hall, Ken Koch (with some great/pending news about KTA), Bill
Hammons, and others. Hope to see EVeryone (and many more?) next year!
Jim Waite
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:18:12 -0500
From: "Eric Udell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] Battery Beach Burnout Photos and Video
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I've posted a few photos and a video from the Battery Beach Burnout:
http://www.home-ontherange.com/bbb08_small.zip is 10 images and about 2M.
http://www.home-ontherange.com/drag.mov is a 30M quicktime movie of Shawn
Lawless's drag bike taking a pass Saturday morning. It's kinda hard to see,
but the rider as got the tire smoking at the END of the strip.
Enjoy!
Eric Udell
Big Pine Key, FL
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:28:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Electric Dragin
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Hey all
I wanted to throw out a quick note that I made it home
safe. Being I didn't get back to Redmond till
midnight (12:30 before I got my check in stuff) and I
arrived to find my truch burried under 6" of snow on
top of an inch of solid ice, which took another 30
minutes of scraping and defrosting, I didn't get home
till after 1AM. I was still pretty wired when I got
home so I didn't hit the sack till after 3AM so I'm
paying the reaper so to speak.
The motel didn't have internet access so I wasn't able
to log on and post anything about the EVent (let alone
check my email) so I've got a lot of catching up to do
and it'll be a bit before that'll all get done. I
won't have a whole lot to post as to ETA's and the
like, as I was pit crew for the Orange Crush pocket
bike. In as much as the big dogs were having their
grudge matches, I was having fun giving Brian Hall's
little pocket bike a run for the money on the baby end
of things 8^)
As was posted, there was a great variety of EV's that
attended this EVent. I wanted to personally thank
EVeryone for a great time and for the efforts it took
to put on an EVent of this size. Not all went
according to plans (does it EVer) and the weather
turned sour Saturday night, but I felt the EVent was a
huge success and I'm sure it'll be EVen better next
year as practice makes perfect.
Anyway, I'll post a fuller report once the brain isn't
so soft and mushy 8^)
Hope all had as much fun as I did.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a better friend, newshound, and
know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
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------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:47:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Increasing pole count for DC motors
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> For
> example, if the EV1 had used a 2-pole design for its
> 13,000 RPM motor,
> their inverter would have had to run at 216 Hz. This
> is too high for
> conventional laminations.
>
Hi Lee,
The EV1 motor is a 4 pole machine.
> >> I haven't taken one apart, but as I understand it
> most series-wound
> >> DC motors have two poles.
>
> 4 poles is the most common.
I agree that most EV motors you see are 4 pole. This
goes for DC or AC. I think Seimens and Bursa do make
6 or 8 pole AC motors. I do not think I have ever
seen a 2 pole motor used for EV propulsion.
2 pole motors need twice the frame thickness as a 4
pole and have difficulty with the coil end turns. On
a 2 pole design, the coil side are 180 degrees apart.
Connections (end turns) must be routed around the
shaft. This accounts for extra copper outside the
magnetic circuit, which means extra resistance for no
torque production. High power 2 pole machines (motors
and generators) are most often found in high speed
applicatioins where they have a large length to
diameter ratio. This keeps the mechanical forces on
the rotor low, electrical frequency low and the ratio
of active to inactive copper high.
Regards,
Jeff M
____________________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:14:22 -0800
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cooty 2seat NEV
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
The Bandit is not a Xebra. The Bandit & Flyer models are full hatchbacks.
They are like little station wagons. Much more practical than the Xebra.
However if you can't test one the point is mute. Lawrence Rhodes..
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:30:34 -0800
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sparrow Tire Melt-down!
To: <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
http://www.hotjuiceelectric.com/tweetygallery.html
Very nice. You only have a third of the weight on the power wheel. With
positraction you have half. On a regular differential it might EVen be
easier to lightem up as only 1/4 of the weight is on the motive wheel. You
don't EVen need to do the Wayland Wiggle to get her started. (BTW FYI The
Wayland Wiggle is used to start a smoke show. Especially good around a
corner. Give the rear end a good swing around a corner in third gear the
rear breaks loose and the motor spins the wheels at about a hundred miles
per hour when in reality the car is only going 10 to 15mph.) That's the
Wayland Wiggle. Someone aught to write a song. Be good to a boogie tune &
a video of Blue Meanie breaking loose. Lawrence Rhodes....
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 11:39:39 -0800
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] GatorMoto NEV sales.
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>,
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I discovered this business while investigating another ev producer. They make
NEV's based on 48v systems using 8 6v batteries instead of using 6 8v
batteries. They also make larger 6,9,12,15,18 & 19 passenger electric
vehicles. Below is from Justin. Lawrence Rhodes..
GatorMoto, based out of Gainesville Florida, distributes street legal electric
vehicles. Our vehicles range from 2 to 15 passenger floorplans and we have
models ideal for both residential and commercial use. All of our vehicles come
fully loaded with features such as aluminum rims, 12v power outlets, cd
players, and more. We allow special orders for custom colors at no additional
charge. Along with retail purchases, we also work directly with many
Universities, Governmental Agencies, Churches, Resorts, and Hospitals to help
with their transportation needs. More information can be found at
www.GatorMoto.com and we can be reached at (352) 376-6275.
Justin
GatorMoto
------------------------------
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End of EV Digest, Vol 6, Issue 89
*********************************
