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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Opportunity power supply / charger (EVDL Administrator)
2. New to EVs conversion (Jeff Shanab)
3. Re: Still trying to make sense of my data ... hoping you can
help (Steve Condie)
4. Re: Optimas - I need your data to compare - long winded...
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
5. Re: Still trying to make sense of my data ... hoping you can
help (Bill Dube)
6. Re: Opportunity power supply / charger (EVDL Administrator)
7. Re: help needed troubleshooting a GE-EVT15 controller in Long
Beach (Rod Hower)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:06:16 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Opportunity power supply / charger
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On 17 Feb 2008 at 19:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> $2400 for a PFC30 ouch!
Wait until you price out a REALLY smart EV charger, such as a Brusa!
Remember, we're not talking about toasters or DVD players, cranked out by
the hundreds of thousands or millions from some sweatshop staffed with 15
year old kids paid two bits an hour. This is high-end electronics, produced
in the hundreds of units per year, perhaps a thousand or so at most. The
design costs can't be amortized of millions of units.
Many are mostly or entirely hand-assembled by people in the US or the EU who
are paid a decent US or EU wage and benefits. Sometimes they are assembled
by the designer himself.
I will however stick my neck out and say that, while I haven't tried to
compute the payback, I >think< that when you buy a smart charger that babies
your battery, you'll get your charger investment back over the life of the
EV, through extended battery cycle life.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 09:47:37 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [EVDL] New to EVs conversion
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
How much does the car weight, I fear it is around 3000lb. I chose a 1987
300zx and it is similarly build and this heft is a problem.
The volts of the motor doesn't matter so much and is generally a data
point chosen, but in a given system it determines max motor rpm with
useable torque. T
The insulation system determines what voltage max it can handle.
Kinda like this: motor is a generator at same time. at 0 rpm the
voltage generated is 0 so the applied voltage is applied to the
resistance of the motor. Huge amps and huge torque. As the rpm climbs,
the voltage generated goes up. So it becomes Voltage applied minus
generated voltage, applied to the motor and the torque drops until you
can't accelerate anymore, you reach an equilibrium. Your only choice is
tho raise the voltage or shift gears.
I live in fresno, Ca ; also flat as a pancake.
I live 8 miles from work.
The temperature here is over 100 days on end during the summer and mild
cold during the winters.
The temperature is important, My mistake was thinking it was a minor
issue, but 40 degree batteries drop range 60% and actually on a heavy
car is a little worse, the voltage sags too much. I didn't but the
batteries in insulated and heated boxes and I am suffereing.
I have a 9" series wound motor connected up to the stock tranny. (9"
diameter http://www.go-ev.com/ but I suggest talking to Jim Husted.
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com/ )
Initially I had 17 exide orbitals and it really accelerated good, When I
went to 24 orbitals the accelration suffered as the weight went up to
4000lbs.
I now have to shift, before I could drive in 3rd all the time around
town using second only to impress. 4th is for the freeway and 5th hasn't
been needed
The 4 wheel disk brakes I thing drag in back so I get realy rotten
mileage ~425Wh/mile, you should get around 325Wh/mile at most.
so 325 Wh/mile....
7+10+7 miles = 24Miles (27 is most I have ever gone, 24 was do-able on
new pack)
24 * 325wh/mile = 7800Wh * 1.2 = 9360wh the 1.2 is don't go below 80%DOD,
24 * 325 7800 * 2 = 15600 this is 50% DOD, best for
batteries and means you can keep driving until pack ages to point where
that is 80%DOD
You can get this many ways. If you say 72V, then you are talking 130ah
and 217ah But that is not the whole story. If you say you will deplete
the pack in 1 hr then we have to find out what the 1 hr rateing is, Most
Deep Cycle batteries are rated in 20 hour rateing. "How many amphours
for an amp draw such that it is empty in 20 hours." Search for Uve's
battery page for some help, I can't speak to floddies, but those big
batteries will be ok on the amps.
I used 24 orbitals which are 50ah for a 288V system, I can say that
their <1 hr rate is more like 24ah.
So 24*12*24 = (6912 * .8) / 425 = 13 miles. I do this regularly and
expect the pack to die an early death. I do think my math is a little
off as I do better in the summer, AGM's don't suffer as much pukerts as
floodies.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 11:01:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Still trying to make sense of my data ... hoping
you can help
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Well, I can't comment on the math, and I don't use Optima's, but my limited
experience in the real world suggests that you just don't have enough lead.
My Courier pickup truck was heavier than your Festiva, but I had 15 110 AH
no-name AGM's in it - that's four times the amount of lead you have, and
probably at least twice the lead to GVW ratio, if not more. 32 miles was as
far as I was willing to push my batteries; you're trying to get 1/4 that,
but I don't think it scales down that way. The more you load your
batteries, the less range you get out of them. I'm not surprised that you
get less than 1/4 the range I did, even in a small, light car. I suspect
that you have underestimated the amp draw per mile of your vehicle in real
world, stop & go conditions. I really don't understand how your reported
amp draw goes down as your speed increases. " If this is right, my car
cruises at 126 Watt Hrs /mile ! Could it really be that good?" My guess
is: "Cruises", maybe. Total draw in real world driving? No. My truck
averaged about 350 or more; most of the ones on the EValbum are in that
range as well. Even a small, lightweight car is probably well over 200 in
even a gentle trip cycle.
It may be true that your batteries are deficient - or there may just be too
few of them.
OK. All I am trying to do is figure out how I can get
my small light car to go a short 8 miles per day - 2
miles to work (20 - 25 MPH due to heavy stop and go
traffic), 2 miles home (35 - 40 MPH), 2 miles back to
work (35 - 40 MPH), and 2 miles back home (25-30 MPH).
It is here in Atlanta where the weather is warm. I
have no battery heaters, and don't think I need them.
The car has an ADC 9", EV-1C controller running 84 V
(right now), 7 Optima Blue Tops (installed 1/08),
<snip>
Here's the problem. I drive 4 miles, let it rest, and
then check the recovered voltage. It's 12.35 V or so
(Maybe 40% SOC, but read on). Pretty low. Under
load, I have seen the batts near and even get to 10.5
V sometimes even a little lower (0% SOC according to
Roger Stockton). So, I can't go any further,
definately not 8 miles.
I suspected the batteries. Some others said I'm not
charging them correctly (with the speed chargers). I
don't think I should be at 100% DOD / 0% SOC after
only 4 miles.
So, I collected data.
<snip>
But, another data point is max current measured under
heavy load while driving (after surface charge was
gone) = 184 Amps, Voltage sagged to 10.5 V. So, that
tells me thet once you get past the surface charge,
these things have pretty high internal resistance.
That seems like a battery issue to me. Again, am I
misunderstanding the data?
Here are some more data points on the car over my 2
mile trip ...
(All data is in 2nd gear)
15 MPH - uphill, V = 11.86 * 7 Volts, I = 118 Amps
20 MPH - uphill, V = 11.64 * 7 Volts, I = 111 Amps
25 MPH - relatively flat, V = 11.72 * 7 Volts, I =
97.1 Amps
30 MPH - 12.21 * 7 Volts, 74 Amps
40 MPH - 11.62 * 7 Volts, anywhere between 25 and 67
Amps solid 62 Amps during about a 1 mile cruise).
... If this is right, my car cruises at 126 Watt Hrs /
mile ! Could it really be that good? Previously, I
estimated it between 200 and 225 Watt hrs / mile based
on wall to wheel (trying to factor out the efficiency
of the charger after the fact) ...
So, that's all I have. I don't have an e-meter so I
can't say how many Watt-hr I took out during that
trip.
--
View this message in context:
http://www.nabble.com/Still-trying-to-make-sense-of-my-data-...-hoping-you-can-help-tp15537520p15547664.html
Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at
Nabble.com.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:09:19 -0500
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Optimas - I need your data to compare - long
winded...
To: ev@lists.sjsu.edu
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 10:58 am
Subject: [EVDL] Optimas - I need your data to compare
I need some data from other people using Optima Blue
Tops or Yellow Tops. If you have had your car a
while, or know the performance from a previous owner
and recently (within the last year) replaced your
batts ...
Snip, Snip...
Ok, here is my Optima story?
My wife, Heidi, bought her yellow NmG in August 2006, which was
delivered in Austin, Texas in November 2006. She named it Tweety.
This was our first EV and I knew that most EV newbie?s kill their first
pack early, so I studied every speck of information I could get my eyes
on regarding AGM battery health. Driving the car was somewhat
intermittent for the first couple months due to registration issues. A
long unrelated story there, mainly due to a comedy of errors such as
lost paper work, etc.
Anyway, finally Tweety was legal to drive. It quickly replaced the
bulk of miles that used to go on Heidi?s previous daily driver, a Ford
Explorer. Since then Tweety averages about 500 miles per month.
Tweety has also made a few 40 mile trips up and down the interstate
cruising along at 70 MPH, the bulk of miles, however, are back and
forth to work and general errands. These trips result in (at least)
three 10 to 12 AH cycles per day.
In late May 2007 I noticed that after a drive to work, its performance
was just noticeably less than it had been. That is, it would not snap
an instant burnout as quickly. So I checked the balance of the pack
and found three low batteries. The three low batteries were also the
ones that were the highest during the final charging phase ? all three
were around 17 volts. Then I built a dummy load out of some 4500 watt
water heater elements.
http://www.hotjuiceelectric.com/tweetyupgradegallery.html (scroll to
bottom of page). With that, I found those three batteries would
?crash? before all the others. After all the study of AGM batteries
and especially after reading a commuter cars study on charging
algorithms,
http://www.commutercars.com/downloads/batteryCharging/chargeAlgorithm.pdf
, I decided to develop a set of shunt regulators that complimented the
Zivan?s pulse recombinant charge phase. I installed the first
prototype BEQ1?s in May. The three batteries balanced out with the
rest of the pack and actually improved their performance but their
capacity was still lacking. That is, they held their voltage with the
rest of the pack even at high currents until they ran out of capacity.
Before the regulators, they were low resting and sagged badly. I
replaced the three weak batteries in July. After a few days, the pack
was very well balanced, and made good power but still did not have the
capacity it originally had when new. That also includes the three new
batteries.
My point in all this is I thought we had killed the pack early. It
only lasted one year. Then, after reconsidering I realized that the
pack actually did quite well. We had well over 400 cycles on it and it
wasn?t dead when we replaced it with a set of Odyssey PC1200?s in
December. They still make tons of power; they are just weak on
capacity. They still have a lot of useful life left in them, so I am
assembling them into a static test pack for Hot Juice Electric.
http://www.hotjuiceelectric.com.
My primary disappointment with Optima was when I was told by an Optima
factory representative that Optima offers no warranty when used in an
EV. I found that quite shocking. I then called Enersys and Excide and
they both warrant their batteries the same regardless of application.
My story,
Ken
________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 12:32:16 -0700
From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Still trying to make sense of my data ... hoping
you can help
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Figure that 500 lbs of lead is about 1 gallon of gasoline.
If then original car got 28 miles per gallon of gasoline, the
conversion will go about 28 miles (max) for each 500 lbs of lead you put in it.
The Festiva gets about 27 mpg. He has 7 x 42 = 294 lb of
lead. This suggests that he can go, at most, 16 miles.
Bill Dube'
At 12:01 PM 2/18/2008, you wrote:
>Well, I can't comment on the math, and I don't use Optima's, but my limited
>experience in the real world suggests that you just don't have enough lead.
>My Courier pickup truck was heavier than your Festiva, but I had 15 110 AH
>no-name AGM's in it - that's four times the amount of lead you have, and
>probably at least twice the lead to GVW ratio, if not more. 32 miles was as
>far as I was willing to push my batteries; you're trying to get 1/4 that,
>but I don't think it scales down that way. The more you load your
>batteries, the less range you get out of them. I'm not surprised that you
>get less than 1/4 the range I did, even in a small, light car. I suspect
>that you have underestimated the amp draw per mile of your vehicle in real
>world, stop & go conditions. I really don't understand how your reported
>amp draw goes down as your speed increases. " If this is right, my car
>cruises at 126 Watt Hrs /mile ! Could it really be that good?" My guess
>is: "Cruises", maybe. Total draw in real world driving? No. My truck
>averaged about 350 or more; most of the ones on the EValbum are in that
>range as well. Even a small, lightweight car is probably well over 200 in
>even a gentle trip cycle.
>
>It may be true that your batteries are deficient - or there may just be too
>few of them.
>
>
>
>OK. All I am trying to do is figure out how I can get
>my small light car to go a short 8 miles per day - 2
>miles to work (20 - 25 MPH due to heavy stop and go
>traffic), 2 miles home (35 - 40 MPH), 2 miles back to
>work (35 - 40 MPH), and 2 miles back home (25-30 MPH).
> It is here in Atlanta where the weather is warm. I
>have no battery heaters, and don't think I need them.
>
>The car has an ADC 9", EV-1C controller running 84 V
>(right now), 7 Optima Blue Tops (installed 1/08),
>
><snip>
>
>Here's the problem. I drive 4 miles, let it rest, and
>then check the recovered voltage. It's 12.35 V or so
>(Maybe 40% SOC, but read on). Pretty low. Under
>load, I have seen the batts near and even get to 10.5
>V sometimes even a little lower (0% SOC according to
>Roger Stockton). So, I can't go any further,
>definately not 8 miles.
>
>I suspected the batteries. Some others said I'm not
>charging them correctly (with the speed chargers). I
>don't think I should be at 100% DOD / 0% SOC after
>only 4 miles.
>
>So, I collected data.
>
><snip>
>
>But, another data point is max current measured under
>heavy load while driving (after surface charge was
>gone) = 184 Amps, Voltage sagged to 10.5 V. So, that
>tells me thet once you get past the surface charge,
>these things have pretty high internal resistance.
>That seems like a battery issue to me. Again, am I
>misunderstanding the data?
>
>Here are some more data points on the car over my 2
>mile trip ...
>
>(All data is in 2nd gear)
>15 MPH - uphill, V = 11.86 * 7 Volts, I = 118 Amps
>20 MPH - uphill, V = 11.64 * 7 Volts, I = 111 Amps
>25 MPH - relatively flat, V = 11.72 * 7 Volts, I =
>97.1 Amps
>30 MPH - 12.21 * 7 Volts, 74 Amps
>40 MPH - 11.62 * 7 Volts, anywhere between 25 and 67
>Amps solid 62 Amps during about a 1 mile cruise).
>
>... If this is right, my car cruises at 126 Watt Hrs /
>mile ! Could it really be that good? Previously, I
>estimated it between 200 and 225 Watt hrs / mile based
>on wall to wheel (trying to factor out the efficiency
>of the charger after the fact) ...
>
>So, that's all I have. I don't have an e-meter so I
>can't say how many Watt-hr I took out during that
>trip.
>--
>View this message in context:
>http://www.nabble.com/Still-trying-to-make-sense-of-my-data-...-hoping-you-can-help-tp15537520p15547664.html
>Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive
>at Nabble.com.
>
>_______________________________________________
>For subscription options, see
>http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 22:55:07 -0500
From: "EVDL Administrator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Opportunity power supply / charger
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
On 17 Feb 2008 at 19:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> $2400 for a PFC30 ouch!
Wait until you price out a REALLY smart EV charger, such as a Brusa.
Remember, we're not talking about toasters or DVD players, cranked out by
the hundreds of thousands or millions from some sweatshop staffed with 15
year old kids paid two bits an hour. This is high-end electronics, produced
in the hundreds of units per year, perhaps a thousand or so at most. The
design costs can't be amortized of millions of units.
Many are mostly or entirely hand-assembled by people in the US or the EU who
are paid a decent US or EU wage and benefits. Sometimes they are assembled
by the designer himself.
I will however stick my neck out and say that, while I haven't tried to
compute the payback, I >think< that when you buy a smart charger that babies
your battery, you'll get your charger investment back over the life of the
EV, through extended battery cycle life.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not
reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 11:53:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [EVDL] help needed troubleshooting a GE-EVT15 controller
in Long Beach
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <ev@lists.sjsu.edu>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Fault code -27 is 12V on the control card is low (the
cutoff point in software is 9.6Vdc).
This is from the GE EVT100ZX manual (essentially the
same as EVT15).
Symptom:
Forward or Reverse contactors close and open, then can
only be closed by opening and closing the key switch.
Possible Causes:
Discharged battery - check battery to insure proper
state of charge. Voltage may be dropping below 10Vdc.
Loose connection at PB1. Insure that PB1 is tight.
Defective logic card. Replace logic card.
Defective Q1 transistor. Measure for low resistance
(<200 ohms) between at PZ4 to NEG.
PZ4 is the 14 pin connector that has wires going to
the IGBT power transistor (I think its the red wire).
PB1 is the second 6 pin connector, upper right of the
connector.
Rod
W8RNH
--- Paul <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi, my friend Cliff in the San Pedro area of LA
> inherited an EV. The
> car is an old Volvo and the conversion was done
> 10-15 years ago.
>
> He installed new batteries, drove around for a few
> miles then
> everything died.
>
> We believe the problem is in the GE-EVT15
> controller, but he has
> little documentation and does not know what the
> error code means. Can
> anyone help?
>
> Here are the symptoms in his words;
>
> > Got a new controller battery. Bad news is it
> did'nt work. I have
> > some new clues though.
> >
> > I turned on the car, pushed in the pot box, the
> first relay clicks
> > on, then for some reason it clicks off and when I
> push it in again
> > it does'nt work at all.
> >
> > BUT
> >
> > If i turn the car off and turn it on again, I can
> get it to do the
> > same thing again.
> >
> > the dash display gives an error message of -27 I
> think you said you
> > may be able to get a list of error codes?
> >
> > what do you think?
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> For subscription options, see
> http://lists.sjsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/ev
>
------------------------------
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End of EV Digest, Vol 7, Issue 36
*********************************
