Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>
> Brent meeker writes:
>> Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
>>> Brent Meeker writes:
>>>
>>>> I would say that many complex mechanical systems react to "pain" in a way
>>>> similar to simple animals. For example, aircraft have automatic shut
>>>> downs and fire extinguishers. They can change the flight controls to
>>>> reduce stress on structures. Whether they feel this "pain" is a different
>>>> question. I think they feel it if they incorporate it into a narrative to
>>>> which values are attached for purposes of learning ("Don't do that again,
>>>> it hurts."). But that's my theory of qualia - a speculative one.
>>> Pain mostly comes before learning. Infants are born with the
>>> ability to experience pain, so they learn to avoid activities which
>>> cause pain.
>> But the learning is a higher level thing. The experience has two levels.
>> One is just hardwired reactions, pulling your hand back from the fire. The
>> aircraft already has this, as to some very simple organisms. The other is
>> part of consciousness, which I speculate is creating a narrative in memory
>> with attached emotional values. Babies certainly feel pain in the first
>> sense, but they seem to have to learn to cry when hurt. I've accidentally
>> stuck one of my infant children when diapering them and gotten no reaction.
>
> Pulling your hand back from the fire is primitive spinal reflex: you actually
> do this
> before you perceive the pain. This is straightforward wiring and occurs even
> if the
> connection between brain and spinal cord is severed. There is an intermediate
> step,
> however, between that and the learning and emotional reaction which goes with
> the painful stimulus, which might be called the raw perception of pain, and
> which is
> probably hardwired during brain development.
>
> There is actually controversy about whether neonates experience pain.
> Operations
> such as cardiac surgery were done with just a muscle relaxant to stop the
> baby from
> moving when its chest was cut open. None of them complained afterwards...
> These
> days, proper analgesia is used, as all the evidence short of asking them
> suggests that
> neonates *do* experience pain.
>
>>> It seems to be hardwired at a very basic level, which
>>> makes me think that it ought to be easier to implement in an AI than
>>> more complex cognitive processes and behaviours. But how would
>>> a behaviour such as an aircraft's reaction to a fire on board be
>>> characterised as "painful" in the way an infant putting its hand in a
>>> flame is painful? If the aircraft's experience is not painful, what can
>>> do to make it more like the baby's?
>> Add the narrative memory with values attached and then the ability to review
>> that memory when contemplating future actions.
>
> Putting your hand in a flame hurts before you have had any time to
> contemplate
> the hurt. It hurts just as much if you're an intelligent contemplative type,
> a
> complete dolt or a young child.
But even a complete dolt forms memories. The question is does it hurt just as
much if you're a fish? an sponge? a paramecium?
Brent Meeker
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