Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > Brent meeker writes: >> Stathis Papaioannou wrote: >>> Brent Meeker writes: >>> >>>> I would say that many complex mechanical systems react to "pain" in a way >>>> similar to simple animals. For example, aircraft have automatic shut >>>> downs and fire extinguishers. They can change the flight controls to >>>> reduce stress on structures. Whether they feel this "pain" is a different >>>> question. I think they feel it if they incorporate it into a narrative to >>>> which values are attached for purposes of learning ("Don't do that again, >>>> it hurts."). But that's my theory of qualia - a speculative one. >>> Pain mostly comes before learning. Infants are born with the >>> ability to experience pain, so they learn to avoid activities which >>> cause pain. >> But the learning is a higher level thing. The experience has two levels. >> One is just hardwired reactions, pulling your hand back from the fire. The >> aircraft already has this, as to some very simple organisms. The other is >> part of consciousness, which I speculate is creating a narrative in memory >> with attached emotional values. Babies certainly feel pain in the first >> sense, but they seem to have to learn to cry when hurt. I've accidentally >> stuck one of my infant children when diapering them and gotten no reaction. > > Pulling your hand back from the fire is primitive spinal reflex: you actually > do this > before you perceive the pain. This is straightforward wiring and occurs even > if the > connection between brain and spinal cord is severed. There is an intermediate > step, > however, between that and the learning and emotional reaction which goes with > the painful stimulus, which might be called the raw perception of pain, and > which is > probably hardwired during brain development. > > There is actually controversy about whether neonates experience pain. > Operations > such as cardiac surgery were done with just a muscle relaxant to stop the > baby from > moving when its chest was cut open. None of them complained afterwards... > These > days, proper analgesia is used, as all the evidence short of asking them > suggests that > neonates *do* experience pain. > >>> It seems to be hardwired at a very basic level, which >>> makes me think that it ought to be easier to implement in an AI than >>> more complex cognitive processes and behaviours. But how would >>> a behaviour such as an aircraft's reaction to a fire on board be >>> characterised as "painful" in the way an infant putting its hand in a >>> flame is painful? If the aircraft's experience is not painful, what can >>> do to make it more like the baby's? >> Add the narrative memory with values attached and then the ability to review >> that memory when contemplating future actions. > > Putting your hand in a flame hurts before you have had any time to > contemplate > the hurt. It hurts just as much if you're an intelligent contemplative type, > a > complete dolt or a young child.
But even a complete dolt forms memories. The question is does it hurt just as much if you're a fish? an sponge? a paramecium? Brent Meeker --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to email@example.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---