I think we have been through this before actually. Can you point to any aspect of the world which can't be simulated no matter how powerful the computer?
MP: For us mortals, this universe is in many respects infinite. If 'someone' IS running it within a 'computer' then they have to be running all of it. Why? Because humans can do science. This means that our little brains can come up with questions about everything and we do; in fact we can say that 'we' - collectively the whole human species - must have asked questions about everything we already have beliefs about. The formal and systematic way of checking out answers to practical questions of fact is through the assertion of an explanation which is able to make specific predictions because we assume causality, then someone sets up experimental situation to test the predictions. Now the experiment will either falsify the assertions of the explanation because the predictions were not correct, or the predictions will turn out to be correct in which case the assertions will gain strength as explanatory tools and become linked, in the minds of ever more people, with all the other assertions that didn't get falsified. The more this happens, the more the universe is constrained to comply with our explanations. 'So what?' you say. Well, as curious people keep asking questions about their world, so more and more pervasive and detailed application of scientific theory occurs. Curious kids grow up to be curious adults, and some are always going to refuse to be fobbed off with the 'because it IS' response. And the ways of asking questions are potentially infinite because answers get re-input as new questions, which more or less guarantees non-linear results. So newer experiments get created which just by the by incorporate new juxtapositions of previously accepted results as part of the experimental set up. Over time this effectively demands that the accepted theories have to be 100% correct because any slight errors will be multiplied over time. Now I realise this is a rather informal way of asserting this but, as I said before, plain-English is what I want and yes I know this does seem to make things long winded. But the bottom line here is that, over time, scientific theories are constrained to be ever more exactly correct with less and less margin for error. In effect the human species will test just about all significant and practically useful theories to vanishingly small tolerances so whatever might be 'simulating' the universe as seen from planet Earth has ever less margin for error. Simply put the 'universe in the bottle' has to be perfectly consistent and ontologically complete. So the conspiratorial simulators must have 'computers' that are able to increase their representational power to infinite precision when needed. And can the conspirators predict before they start the simulation running just precisely what tests and outlandish ideas the humans will come up with? I think not. I think this means that Stathis's 'no matter how powerful the computer?' is a bit of a cheat [nothing personal you understand; what I am saying is that I think the whole project of Mathematical universe and 'Comp' may be just a very sophisticated house of cards.] I believe that either all of our universe as seen on, at and from planet Earth is being simulated perfectly or none of it is being simulated at all. Regards Mark Peaty CDES [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.arach.net.au/~mpeaty/ Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > On 2/24/07, *Mark Peaty* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote: > > Jason: "Quantum mechanics makes the universe seem random and > uncomputable to > those inside it, but according to the many-worlds interpretation the > universe evolves deterministically. It is only the observers within > the quantum mechanical universe that perceive the randomness and > unpredictability, but this unpredictability doesn't exist at the > higher > level where the universe is being simulated (assuming many-worlds). " > > MP: I don't think I can accept this. Maybe I sound arrogant in > saying this, but I think the idea of simulation is used a bit too > loosely. I know there are those lurking on the Mind & Brain list > and JCS-online who would say I am 'the pot calling the kettle > black', because I am always asserting what I call UMSITW > [pronounced um-see-two for English speakers] - updating the model > of self in the world - is the basis of consciousness. But they > misunderstand me, because I do not say there is anyone else doing > simulation, merely that we experience being here because the > universe has evolved self sustaining regions within itself which > maintain their structure by means of dynamically modelling > themselves and their local region so as to avoid fatal dangers > while obtaining everything they need from their environments. My > point here is simply that the universe is its own best simulation > and that any ideas of something greater, such as a Matrix type > operation, are science fiction only. Why? Because for a feasible > universe like the one we seem to inhabit to be deterministic does > not require that it is predictable nor that it can be repeatable. > Nobody knows to what extent quantum level events are intrinsically > random as opposed to being _pushed from 'behind' or 'below'_ so to > speak. > > > Whether the world can be simulated and whether the world is being > simulated are two different questions. Can you point to any aspect of > the world which can't be simulated no matter how powerful the computer? > > Stathis Papaioannou > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to firstname.lastname@example.org To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---