On 23 Jul 2010, at 17:17, Allen wrote:
I'm sure none of you needed the reminder, it's only so that I
may point directly to what I mean. Now, doesn't this - the nature
of a Turing machine - fundamentally exclude the ability to integrate
information? The computers we have today do not integrate
information to any significant extent, as Tononi explained with his
digital camera example. Is this a fundamental limit of the Turing
machine, or just our current technology?
I think this has nothing to do with technology. It is just that
consciousness is not related to the activity of the physical machine,
but to the logic which makes the person supported by the computation
integrating that information.
In a sense it is just false to relate consciousness to any third
person describable activity, and in fine, if we are machine, our
consciousness, which is a first person notion, is related (not even
defined by) all the possible computations going through the logical
state of the machine. This entails that any machine looking at itself
below its substitution level (the level at which it feels surviving an
artificial digital substitution) will discover that the apparent
material reality is multiple: matter relies on infinity of
computations. This is retrospectively confirmed by quantum mechanics.
In fine, matter is a construction of the mind, in the case we are
digital machine. The brain does not makes consciousness, it filters it
from infinities of first person histories. Tononi is a bit naïve, like
many, on the mind-body (consciousness-reality) relationship. The
integration does not rely on what a machine do, but on what an
infinity of possible machines can do, and how consistent environment
reacts to what the machine (person) decides.
It is a subtle matter, which necessitate to revise the fundamental
status of physics. No amount of third person description will ever
define what is consciousness, and this for reason related to Mechanism
and discoveries in computer science/mathematical logic. You may look
at my url for more if interested. Of you can find sum up and
explanation in the archive of the list.
- Bruno Marchal
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To post to this group, send email to everything-l...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
For more options, visit this group at