On Jun 4, 2011, at 1:03 PM, Rex Allen <rexallen31...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 1:51 PM, Jason Resch <jasonre...@gmail.com>wrote:On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Rex Allen<rexallen31...@gmail.com> wrote:On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Jason Resch<jasonre...@gmail.com> wrote:One thing I thought of recently which is a good way of showing how computation occurs due to the objective truth or falsehood of mathematical propositions is as follows: Most would agree that a statement such as "8 is composite" has an eternal objective truth.Assuming certain of axioms and rules of inference, sure.Godel showed no single axiomatic system captures all mathematicaltruth, anyfixed set of axioms can at best approximate mathematical truth. Ifmathematical truth cannot be fully captured by a set of axioms, itmustexist outside sets of axioms altogether.Then perhaps the correct conclusion to draw is that there is no such thing as "mathematical truth"? Perhaps there is just human belief.

`Perhaps so, perhaps there is only Rex's beliefs. Perhaps only rex's`

`beliefs at this exact moment. But what explanatory power does that`

`offer? What model for decision making can there be with such a world`

`view?`

The fractal is just an example of a simple formula leading to verycomplexoutput. The same is true for the UDA: for i = 0 to inf: for each j in set of programs: execute single instruction of program j add i to set of programs That simple formula executes all programs.Following those instructions will let someone "execute" all"programs".

What is the engine providing the computations which drive the universe?

Or, alternatively, configuring a physical system in a way that represents those instructions will allow someone to interpret the system's subsequent states as being analogous to the "execution" of all "programs".

`Do you think pi has an objective (not human invented or approximated)`

`value, whether or not any person computed it?`

`Is there an answer to the question what is the googleplexth decimal`

`digit of pi given no one in this universe could ever computed it?`

`If there is, then there are also objective values to the omega`

`constant, or the state of the uda after X steps. These values exist`

`without the need for someone to execute them, anymore than we need to`

`compute the billionth digit of pi for it to have it's value.`

Is extraordinary complexity required for the manifestation of"mind"?If so, why?I don't know what lower bound of information or complexity isrequired forminds.Then why do you believe that information of complexity is requiredfor minds?

`I think information is a critical component of consciousness. The`

`very definition of consciousness: "having awareness of ones own`

`thoughts and sensations.". Awareness is defined as having knowledge`

`or information. Therefore consciousness is the possession of`

`information (about ones thoughts ir sensations).`

`There are also reasons to believe in the informational basis if`

`consciousness due to multiple realizeability. Minds can take`

`different physical forms because information cab take many physical`

`forms.`

`Lastly there is an argument realted to zombies. A zombie cannot feel`

`any different or be less conscious than a conscious person who is`

`physically identical. This is because the informational content of`

`both the person and the zombie is necessarily the same (given the`

`identical physical states). Therefore the conscious person does not`

`and cannot know anything more about what they are feeling or`

`experiencing than the zombie does. Both must be equally conscious.`

Is it that these recursive relations cause our experience, or arejusta way of thinking about our experience? Is it: Recursive relations cause thought. OR: Recursion is just a label that we apply to some of our implicational beliefs. The latter seems more plausible to me.Through recursion one can implement any form of computation.But, ultimately, what is computation?

`A process. More specifically one that connects a succession of states`

`via some well-defined relation(s).`

Recursion iscommon and easy to show in different mathematical formulas, whileshowing aTuring machine is more difficult. Many programs which can beeasily definedthrough recursion can also be implemented without recursion, so Iwas notimplying recursion is necessary for minds.Then what do you believe is necessary for minds?

An informational process. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.