On 01.02.2012 21:51 Stephen P. King said the following:
On 2/1/2012 3:10 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 29.01.2012 22:49 Russell Standish said the following:
On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 04:23:12PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:
On 28.01.2012 23:26 meekerdb said the following:
On 1/27/2012 11:47 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote:


A good suggestion. It well might be that I express my thoughts
unclear, sorry for that. Yet, I think that my examples show
that

1) There is information
and entropy

that engineers employ.

Some engineers employ information, some the thermodynamic entropy.
I have not seen though an engineering paper where both information
and the thermodynamic entropy have been used as synonyms.

2) There is the thermodynamic entropy.

+ thermodynamic information


3) Numerical values in 1) and 2) are not related to each
other.


Fixed that for you. Why should you expect the different types of
information that come from different contexts to have the same
numerical value? The whole point of "On complexity and emergence"
is that notions of information and entropy are complete context
sensitive (that is not to say their subjective as such - people
agreeing on the context will agree on the numerical values).


First the thermodynamic entropy is not context depended. This must
 mean that if it is the same as information, then the latter must
not be context dependent as well. Could you please give me an
example of a physical property that is context dependent?


Temperature is context dependent. If we consider physics at the level
of atoms there is no such a quantity as temperature. Additionally,
thermodynamic entropy does require Boltzmann's constant to be defined
 with is a form of context dependency as it specifies the level at
which we are to take micro-states as macroscopically
indistinguishable.

The Boltzmann's constant, as far as I understand, is defined uniquely. If you talk about some other universe (or Platonia) where one could imagine something else, then it could be. Yet, in the world that we know according to empirical scientific studies, the Boltmann's constant is a fundamental constant. Hence I do not understand you in this respect.

Indeed, temperature is not available directly at the level of particles obeying classical or quantum laws. However for example it could be not a problem with the temperature but rather with the description at the particle level.

Anyway, I would suggest to stick to empirical scientific knowledge that we have. Then I do not understand what do you mean that temperature is context dependent either.

We can imagine very different worlds indeed. Yet, right now we discuss the question (I will repeat from the email to John) as follows:

When Russell says that information is context dependent, we talk about for example a DVD. Then information capacity as defined by the company and the number of physical states are completely different. Hence the notation from Russell that information is context dependent.

If you mean that the temperature and the Boltzmann constant are context depended in the same way, could you please give practical examples?

Evgenii


Onward!

Stephen


Second, when I have different numerical values, this could mean
that the units are different. Yet, if this is not the case, then in
my view we are talking about two different entities.

Could you please explain then what is common between 1) and 2)?

Evgenii





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