On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 7:55 AM, Roger Clough <rclo...@verizon.net> wrote:
> Hi Bruno Marchal
> In 1) you left out the someone to be conscious. Consciousness needs a
> In 2) you left out the our. Consciousness needs a subject.
Consciousness needs a subjective point of view but if you think of how we
experience being deeply engrossed in a movie or book, or how we 'lose
ourselves' in Flow states, it seems that the necessity of a subject in the
human sense is an open question - although the existence of human
subjectivity certainly suggests that such a subject is inherently possible
I remember having dreams in which I was not present, but rather just aware
of events and people as they were interacting. Not even a voyeur, but no
sense of there being anything other than the people and their activities.
Maybe dream consciousness doesn't qualify as consciousness, but that's a
separate semantic issue. It could also be the case that such dreams and
self-transcendence are only possible as an a posteriori imagination which
arises from a fully formed human self...hard to know.
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
> so that everything could function."
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> *From:* Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
> *Receiver:* everything-list <firstname.lastname@example.org>
> *Time:* 2012-09-03, 11:06:47
> *Subject:* Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect
> On 03 Sep 2012, at 13:48, Roger Clough wrote:
> Hi meekerdb
> I don't hold to Popper's criterion.
> There's got to be a lot of things that are not falsifiable.
> For example, you drop an apple and gravity pulls it down.
> Falsifiable means "can be falsified". here the gravity can be falsfied:
> "you drop the apple and gravity pulls it up".
> Hi Bruno Marchal
> IMHO and for what it's worth, if you don't at least give a rough
> definition of consciousness,
> you might leave out something some of us consider essential, such as
> a subject:
> Cs = subject + object
> If you don't include the subject, then:
> Cs = object
> which makes it a noun. Persponally I believe that it's a dipole.
> I have no definition of consciousness. With comp I can show why there are
> But this does not prevent us to reason on it, once we can agree on some
> principles about it.
> To get the consequences of comp, about consciousness, you need only to
> agree with this:
> 1) that you are conscious (or that the humans are conscious)
> 2) that our consciousness is invariant for digital functional change made
> at *some* description level of the brain or body or local environment or
> even some physical universe.
> All the rest follows from arithmetic and Church thesis if you agree on 1)
> and 2).
> 3) It's also probably why taxing the rich ultimnately doesn''t work,
> it lowers everybody's income to fit the curve. A nd why trickle
> down doesn't work.
> I do agree with this. The leftist idea of distributing richness cannot
> work for many reasons. But richness must be based on facts, and not on
> propaganda. Today we are living a perversion of capitalism, because too
> much investment are money stealing in disguise. The whole oil, and military
> industries, jail systems, and pharmaceutical industries are build on sands.
> It will crumbled down, and the sooner the better. But it will take time as
> the most of the middle class and banks are hostage (not always knowingly)
> of professional liars.
> Hi Richard Ruquist
> There is no god in comp.
> Here I disagree. If you are OK to semi-axiomatically define God by
> 1) what is responsible for our existence
> 2) so big as to be beyond nameability
> Then there is a God in comp.
> Of course if you define God by "white giant with a beard, and sitting on a
> cloud", then you are very plausibly right.
> A little more on this in my reply to Richard.
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