On 04 Sep 2012, at 13:55, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal

In 1) you left out the someone to be conscious. Consciousness needs a subject.

In 1) the subject is you.



In 2) you left out the our.  Consciousness needs a subject.

In 2) the "our" is not left, as I mention it explicitly.

Bruno





Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net
9/4/2012
Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him
so that everything could function."
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2012-09-03, 11:06:47
Subject: Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect


On 03 Sep 2012, at 13:48, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi meekerdb

I don't hold to Popper's criterion.
There's got to be a lot of things that are not falsifiable.
For example, you drop an apple and gravity pulls it down.

?
Falsifiable means "can be falsified". here the gravity can be falsfied: "you drop the apple and gravity pulls it up".

Hi Bruno Marchal

IMHO and for what it's worth, if you don't at least give a rough definition of consciousness,
you might leave out something some of us consider essential, such as
a subject:

Cs = subject + object

If you don't include the subject, then:


Cs = object


which makes it a noun. Persponally I believe that it's a dipole.

I have no definition of consciousness. With comp I can show why there are none. But this does not prevent us to reason on it, once we can agree on some principles about it. To get the consequences of comp, about consciousness, you need only to agree with this:

1) that you are conscious (or that the humans  are conscious)
2) that our consciousness is invariant for digital functional change made at *some* description level of the brain or body or local environment or even some physical universe.

All the rest follows from arithmetic and Church thesis if you agree on 1) and 2).

3) It's also probably why taxing the rich ultimnately  doesn''t work,
it lowers everybody's income to fit the curve.  A nd why trickle
down doesn't work.

I do agree with this. The leftist idea of distributing richness cannot work for many reasons. But richness must be based on facts, and not on propaganda. Today we are living a perversion of capitalism, because too much investment are money stealing in disguise. The whole oil, and military industries, jail systems, and pharmaceutical industries are build on sands. It will crumbled down, and the sooner the better. But it will take time as the most of the middle class and banks are hostage (not always knowingly) of professional liars.

Hi Richard Ruquist

There is no god in comp.

Here I disagree. If you are OK to semi-axiomatically define God by
1) what is responsible for our existence
2) so big as to be beyond nameability
Then there is a God in comp.
Of course if you define God by "white giant with a beard, and sitting on a cloud", then you are very plausibly right.
A little more on this in my reply to Richard.

Bruno




http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/




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