On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 8:18:44 AM UTC-4, rclough wrote:
>
>  Hi Craig Weinberg 
>  
> Lord of the Flies is basically the conservative view put forth by Hobbes 
> (and Paul).
>     At root we are criminals.
>  
> Welfare is essentially the leftist view put forth by Rousseau.
>     At root we are saints.
>  
>

I think that most people are neither criminals nor saints. This quote I 
think sums up my view of economics: "Money is like manure. If you spread it 
around it does a lot of good. But if you pile it up in one place it stinks 
like hell."

Craig

 
>  
> Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net <javascript:>
> 9/5/2012 
> Leibniz would say, "If there's no God, we'd have to invent him 
> so that everything could function."
>
> ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> *From:* Craig Weinberg <javascript:> 
> *Receiver:* everything-list <javascript:> 
> *Time:* 2012-09-05, 00:40:00
> *Subject:* Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect
>
>  
>
> On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 11:14:17 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: 
>>
>>  On 9/4/2012 9:07 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 8:49:45 PM UTC-4, Stephen Paul King wrote: 
>>>
>>> On 9/4/2012 4:23 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: 
>>> > What struck me is that the "the USERS of wealth in directing the life 
>>> > of the country." 
>>> > seem to be exporting jobs overseas and hiding their money there as 
>>> well. 
>>> > Richard 
>>>
>>>      OK, let us confiscate all capital and distribute it evenly to every 
>>> one. Then what? 
>>>
>>
>> then we have democracy?
>>
>>
>>     No, because people always congregate into groups, it is their nature. 
>> And from there it is "Lord of the Flies" all over. It has happened many 
>> times before. Why do we never learn?
>>
>
> I think that's why Jefferson was keen on periodic revolutions. If 
> inequality is inevitable though, it makes sense to mediate that tendency to 
> some extent if we can, rather than giving carte blanche to the winning 
> savages. It's like saying we should learn that there is always crime so why 
> bother with police. Isn't civilization based upon the effort to tame our 
> innate tendencies toward self interest? Or at least to agree to conspire 
> against the barbarians outside of the walls.
>
>  
>>  
>> wouldn't even need to confiscate all capital, and I don't think that 
>> anyone is suggesting that. Just make hoarding wealth more expensive.
>>
>>
>>     Sure! A tax credit for investing. Oh way, that already exists! It is 
>> why the investment tax is so low as it is!
>>
>
> Investing in guaranteed payouts is what makes hoarding of wealth possible. 
> Why would we want to give tax breaks for the wealthy to find ways of taking 
> more money out of the economy faster? At the plutocrat level, you should be 
> rewarded only for investing in non-profit enterprises that lose money. 
> Being able to invest huge amounts of money, especially unearned money from 
> a dynastic fortune, is a privilege that should be taxed, not rewarded.
>  
>
>>
>>  Maybe follow the Scandinavian model on a trial basis for 20 years in a 
>> handful of cities.
>>
>>
>>     Scandinavia is a bad place to build a model because it has a 
>> homogeneous population. Such populations behave, on average, very different 
>> from highly diverse populations. Segregation into polarized groups happens 
>> much slower in homogenous populations. You might check out the meme flow in 
>> such conditions, its amazing.
>>
>
> If by homogeneous you mean financially homogeneous, then a plan which 
> tilts the economy in favor of the middle class should by definition make 
> any place into a more homogeneous society - in which case the Scandinavian 
> model would be expected to perform as it does for them now. If you are 
> talking about anything else, then I suspect it's just a coded racism. This 
> country was built in large part by slaves. We exploit poor migrant workers. 
> There may not be a choice ultimately for us but to choose whether to become 
> slaves and disposable workers ourselves (assuming we are not already) in a 
> feudal plantation-prison society or to settle the score and go after those 
> who continue to benefit the most from the system as it is.
>
> In any case, there is no reason to think that experimenting with a 
> Scandinavian type system, or even Canadian, British, etc, when it comes to 
> health care would not be better than what we have now. The biggest problem 
> is that our political assumptions are unfalsifiable. No matter how far our 
> standard of living plummets and how the far-too-rich get richer at everyone 
> else's expense, it can always be suggested that it could be worse had we 
> not done what we did. Only through experimentation in a scientific way will 
> we ever learn anything.
>
>
> Craig
>
>  
>>  
>> Craig
>> -- 
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Onward!
>>
>> Stephen
>> http://webpages.charter.net/stephenk1/Outlaw/Outlaw.html
>>
>> -- 
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