On 07 Jan 2013, at 17:26, Roger Clough wrote:

Hi Bruno Marchal

Yes, the theories are nonphysical, and in addition, quantum theories
quantum theory applies to quantum fields, which are nonphysical.

This is hard for me to grasp. What do you mean by "quantum fields" are not physical? It seems to me that they are as much physical than a magnetic field, or a gravitational field. I don't see any difference. Quantum field theory is just a formulation of quantum mechanics in which "particles" become field singularities, but they have the usual observable properties making them physical, even "material". With computationalism, nothing is *primitively* physical, and physics is no more the fundamental science, but many things remains physical, like fields. They do emerge from the way machine can bet on what is directly accessible by measurement.

May be we have a problem of vocabulary. We might use "physical" in different sense.

Bruno




[Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
1/7/2013
"Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
----- Receiving the following content -----
From: Bruno Marchal
Receiver: everything-list
Time: 2013-01-07, 11:17:56
Subject: Re: Is Sheldrake credible ? I personally think so.

On 06 Jan 2013, at 21:59, Roger Clough wrote:

> Hi meekerdb
>
> Not all physicists are materialists, or if they are, they are
> inconsistent
> if they deal with quantum physics, which is nonphysical.


All theories are non physical, but this does not make a materialist
theory inconsistent. With non comp you can make identify mind and non
physical things with some class of physical phenomena.

Careful, in philosophy of mind, "materialism" means "only matter
fundamentally exists". But comp is already contradicting "weak
materialism", the thesis that some matter exists fundamentally (among
possible other things).

Some physicists are non materialist and even non-weak-materialist
( (which is stronger and is necessary with comp). But even them are
still often physicalist. They still believe that everything is
explainable from the behavior of matter (even if that matter is
entirely "ontologically" justified in pure math).

Comp refutes this. Physics becomes the art of the numbers to guess
what are the most common universal numbers supporting them in their
neighborhood, well even the invariant part of this.

Bruno


>
>
> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
> 1/6/2013
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> From: meekerdb
> Receiver: everything-list
> Time: 2013-01-06, 14:17:42
> Subject: Re: Is Sheldrake credible ? I personally think so.
>
>
> On 1/6/2013 5:30 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
> Hi meekerdb
>
> Materialists can't consistently accept inextended structures and
> functions such as quantum fields--or if they do, they aren't
> materialists.
>
> So no physicists since Schrodinger are materialists. So materialism
> can't very well be "scientific dogma" as you keep asserting.
>
> Brent
>
>
>
> [Roger Clough], [rclo...@verizon.net]
> 1/6/2013
> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." - Woody Allen
> ----- Receiving the following content -----
> From: meekerdb
> Receiver: everything-list
> Time: 2013-01-05, 15:37:09
> Subject: Re: Is Sheldrake credible ? I personally think so.
>
>
> On 1/5/2013 6:26 AM, Roger Clough wrote:
> Hi Richard Ruquist
>
> Empirical data, to my way of thinking, trumps scientific dogma
> (such as materialism) any day.
>
> It's rather funny that you keep assailing scienctists as being
> dogmatic materialists and yet you think their world picture: curved
> metric space, quantum fields, schrodinger wave functions,... is all
> immaterial.
>
> Brent
>
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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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