On Thursday, January 31, 2013 4:02:58 AM UTC-5, rclough wrote:
>
>  Hi Kim
>  
> God is not himself created since the creator of all cannot create himself 
> and still remain a creator.
>

Why not just say the same of the universe? If the argument for God is that 
everything that exists must be created by something, then why not just say 
that the Universe cannot create itself and still remain the Universe?

Craig
 

>  ----- Receiving the following content ----- 
> *From:* Bruno Marchal <javascript:> 
> *Receiver:* everything-list <javascript:> 
> *Time:* 2013-01-30, 13:19:48
> *Subject:* Re: Hateful
>
>   On 30 Jan 2013, at 06:06, Kim Jones wrote:
>
> > "we do WHOSE will"???
> >
> > I mean, what if God turns out to be a gigantic chicken or the 
> > Michelin Man?
>
>
> Of course it depends on what you mean by God.
> If God appears to be he Michelin Man, we have already a problem as the 
> Michelin Man has a name, but God does not, hmm...
>
> If you mean that the Michelin is really responsible for our existence, 
> then we might have to revised our opinion on the Michelin Man.
>
>
>
> >
> > Are we still happy with our chosen values?
>
> Why not?
>
> Our value should be kept independent on any scientific discoveries, 
> including in ethics, as they only confirms or refute hypotheses, and 
> our values are deeper than those hypothesis. If not, you make some 
> science into a religion, but then you play the pseudo-science or 
> pseudo-religion games.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
> >
> > K
> >
> >
> >
> > On 30/01/2013, at 4:01 PM, "Stephen P. King" 
> > <step...@charter.net<javascript:>> 
>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On 1/29/2013 11:13 PM, Kim Jones wrote:
> >>> This is a pretty well-worn, oft-used, school prayer. Given it is 
> >>> recited or sung by the entire student body and staff at a good 
> >>> many schools and other institutions you would have to assume that 
> >>> it's all fundamentally good stuff.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Teach us, good Lord, to serve thee as thou deserves;
> >>> to give and not to count the cost;
> >>> to fight and not to heed the wounds;
> >>> to till, and not to seek for rest;
> >>> to labour, and not to ask for any reward,
> >>> save that of knowing we do thy will.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Amen.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> But it's all incredibly bad advice, really - don't you think? Why 
> >>> do people assume God wants Earthlings to be such a bunch of try- 
> >>> hards?
> >>> I hate this prayer. It advertises values that no one can live up 
> >>> to and no one need live up to. Surely we can invent a better, less 
> >>> servile, less obsequious, less cringing, less Gollum-like take on 
> >>> what we think God wants for us.
> >>>
> >>> All this servility, this grovelling at the feet of somebody. Is 
> >>> God really into all that? I don't believe it.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Kim Jones
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Saint Ignatius' prayer, no? Common for those in Jesuit schools. I 
> >> never hear it in my days of Christian school... Many people live 
> >> well with such ideas in their heads, why the licentious talk of them?
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> Onward!
> >>
> >> Stephen
> >>
> >>
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> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>
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